HNMs and the future of FFXI

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Originally Posted by Randwolf

The luck you speak of concerns drops, not claims. And, drops were horrible on HNM's, also. Ask the people who waited for long periods without having a Ridill drop. So, HNM's were a double dose of luck. Or, a dose of hacking and luck. If you are trying to say HNMLS's didn't hack, you need to know that Denial is not a river.

You, and a small minority, live in a time that a large majority, including those who lived it, never want to return to.

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Hacking again, it's a game, it happens, get over it. EVERY game has that issue.

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Originally Posted by Randwolf

The problem is, what will be your response if S/E says that the HNM drops can be gotten in other ways? If you're okay with that, then fine. If not, then bringing them back does involve everyone. Not just those who want them.

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Yes they can do like they did with Odin and give a mob that still requires some effort to obtain drops that are from HNM.

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Originally Posted by Habu

Sorry I miss read that. You only have one EMP. Meaning you're casual, you probably never touched an HNM in your life which means you have no ties to them. You wouldn't understand.

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I know what you said wasn't directed at me but... I only have one Emp and I have done plenty of HNM camping. Possibly more than you. That's a poor standard to go by to decide who's done HNM and who hasn't.

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Originally Posted by Habu

Hacking again, it's a game, it happens, get over it. EVERY game has that issue.

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I agree. However, the old HNM structure, in fact any structure, that has highly sought after drops which only come from one source, tends to make hacking worse. Plus, if you didn't want to wait until you got lucky or hack yourself, then you ended up having to pay the hackers for the drop.

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Originally Posted by Habu

Yes they can do like they did with Odin and give a mob that still requires some effort to obtain drops that are from HNM.

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I have no problem with a system that has two ways in which to get drops: one, a player versus player route, and the other, a player versus difficult mob route.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Possibly more than you..

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I doubt that. /flex

Vote for Habu 2012. This kid knows whats good.

I need some competition and timesinks like my old FFXI, the good FFXI.

Habu,

How are you going to get the "Thrill of outclaiming a rival LS" when you and your 4 buddies are the only people that want this stupid shit back? There won't BE any competition.

HNM's were a stupid design (spawn times/windows) it should have been about the fight, not the time wasted getting the claim.

If you build it they will come.

kudos if you know where that's taken from lol

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Originally Posted by Habu

If you build it they will come.

kudos if you know where that's taken from lol

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Field of Dreams :)

But no they won't, specially if it's the same power drops or exactly the same gear obtainable elsewhere. People always take the easier route.

SE should spend their development time making difficult, interesting and fun FIGHTS not worrying that people need to spend X hours sitting there doing nothing but waiting on a pop they might not get.

That's like saying people chose to do Odin over HNMs since they dropped basically the same things. Odin didn't have Ridill, D.Ring etc but gave P. Body, Valhalla etc. You still saw people camping HNMS even though 90% of the good gear also dropped from Odin.

My first inclination was to stay out of this pathetic excuse for a thread. The arguments themselves are so absurd that no one with any sense would take them at face value.

Sparthos pretty much nails it, though. However, I'd say these people are conflating difficulty with exclusivity rather than confusing the two. To them, nothing could have been worse than the concept of Abyssea, where everyone has a shot at getting or building strong weapons/armor if they want to do so. If these "elitists", for lack of a better term, had their way their sensei--he who dares not be named--would be requested to take away all atmas, triple the HP of every NM, make them time spawn every 3-5 days, and drop only crystals/logs/ores at the end of the 99% of the fights. If these folks had their way AF3+2 would be little better than Relic armor and the items to build the armor would take weeks/months to get (see Dynamis circa 2006). People like Dazusu, Arcon, Winrie, and others simply cannot stand the fact that Abyssea completely wrecked their concept of good equipment going only to those who "deserve" them (i.e. kiss enough behind to make mid-level corporate climbers look askance).

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Originally Posted by Hayward

My first inclination was to stay out of this pathetic excuse for a thread. The arguments themselves are so absurd that no one with any sense would take them at face value.

Sparthos pretty much nails it, though. However, I'd say these people are conflating difficulty with exclusivity rather than confusing the two. To them, nothing could have been worse than the concept of Abyssea, where everyone has a shot at getting or building strong weapons/armor if they want to do so. If these "elitists", for lack of a better term, had their way their sensei--he who dares not be named--would be requested to take away all atmas, triple the HP of every NM, make them time spawn every 3-5 days, and drop only crystals/logs/ores at the end of the 99% of the fights. If these folks had their way AF3+2 would be little better than Relic armor and the items to build the armor would take weeks/months to get (see Dynamis circa 2006). People like Dazusu, Arcon, Winrie, and others simply cannot stand the fact that Abyssea completely wrecked their concept of good equipment going only to those who "deserve" them (i.e. kiss enough behind to make mid-level corporate climbers look askance).

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I have a different theory. I think they are pissed because they used to be able to watch Sabrina the Teenage Witch marathons all day while their Bot camped NMs for them, but now they have to somewhat pay attention in abbysea / vnm / NI 2.0 to get the best gear. I think they are pissed because they have to work now. They just pull the "I like competition" and "Camping NMs is hard work" cards so that they don't sound like they are just as lazy as the casuals.

I think Habu is right that people would do both. However, I think there would be very few who did both the HNM and the other way of getting the drops. And, the majority would do anything that didn't involve the traditional HNM. Of course, S/E might look at that and say, "Why would we create two systems that drop the exact same gear?" I think the fact that they had to add those drops to Odin in the first place says something about the HNM system. But, as before, if S/E makes the HNM drops occur elsewhere, I don't care if they add them

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I have a different theory. I think they are pissed because they used to be able to watch Sabrina the Teenage Witch marathons all day while their Bot camped NMs for them, but now they have to somewhat pay attention in abbysea / vnm / NI 2.0 to get the best gear. I think they are pissed because they have to work now. They just pull the "I like competition" and "Camping NMs is hard work" cards so that they don't sound like they are just as lazy as the casuals.

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Your post and the one before it just makes my head hurt... we're lazy and don't want to work yet "most" of the "elite" still have the best gear, regardless of how much we have to "work" for it. You know that kind os defines the term "elite" having the best gear possible or damn near it, and since we have "no lives" we have infinite time to do all this "work". Seriously enough with the bot garbage, not everyone who claimed/did HNMs botted, that's just a poor excuse for a person who either A. just got outclaimed or B. doesn't like HNMs.

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Originally Posted by Randwolf

I think Habu is right that people would do both. However, I think there would be very few who did both the HNM and the other way of getting the drops. And, the majority would do anything that didn't involve the traditional HNM. Of course, S/E might look at that and say, "Why would we create two systems that drop the exact same gear?" I think the fact that they had to add those drops to Odin in the first place says something about the HNM system. But, as before, if S/E makes the HNM drops occur elsewhere, I don't care if they add them

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Why can't more people be like you :( <3

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I have a different theory. I think they are pissed because they used to be able to watch Sabrina the Teenage Witch marathons all day while their Bot camped NMs for them, but now they have to somewhat pay attention in abbysea / vnm / NI 2.0 to get the best gear. I think they are pissed because they have to work now. They just pull the "I like competition" and "Camping NMs is hard work" cards so that they don't sound like they are just as lazy as the casuals.

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Abyssea ect takes work? last i checked i can auto attack kill anything in the game lately.
Challenge please

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Originally Posted by Habu

Your post and the one before it just makes my head hurt... we're lazy and don't want to work yet "most" of the "elite" still have the best gear, regardless of how much we have to "work" for it. You know that kind os defines the term "elite" having the best gear possible or damn near it, and since we have "no lives" we have infinite time to do all this "work". Seriously enough with the bot garbage, not everyone who claimed/did HNMs botted, that's just a poor excuse for a person who either A. just got outclaimed or B. doesn't like HNMs.

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And yet at the end of the day world spawns are still garbage no matter how much nostalgia attempts to coat the harsh reality of an archaic system in a delicious vanilla coating. Many who disagree either had a vested interest in monopolizing these monsters (herpaderp kings are easy when you're using bots), has been taken over by their inner masochist (too much exposure to Tanaka) or simply cannot see the reality of how negatively such a system impacted FFXI.

You want something that caters to not only casuals but the hardcore? I have 3 solutions that make world spawns seem the maniacal ravings of a lunatic madman more concerned with keeping people on the hamster wheel in utter frustration rather than creating a game that people are supposed to enjoy.

1. Hakutaku/Alastor Antlion/Shen style spawns.
Remember the humble Hakutaku? How you had to travel around the world and get drops to create a trigger for him? This would work wonderfully for new HNMs and not only encourage people to play (by farming items) but also drum up a market for those who simply wanted to buy the pop items and spawn some mobs.

Casuals would focus on getting supplies to market, Hardcores would spread their wealth down by purchasing items from those who farmed and this would give everyone a 'chance' to spawn that NM with the shines on a level playing field.

2. Point systems.
This crap has been beaten to death already. If you create a point system where the XXX uber gear is at the top of the list you'd have many casuals quit before they ever amassed the points and all the hardcores looking to be gods among men could repeat whatever content it was that had the gear until they obtained the badass set of badassery.

Again, everyone has a fair opportunity to obtain items and the onus lay on the player to choose how far they want to take the pursuit of gear.

3. Tiered Progression
Yet another system where the lower tiers would be the realm of the casual player whereas the higher tier NMs would be difficult enough to keep most greenhorns out of action. Systems like ZNMs and Abyssea involved this type of progression where the lower tier monsters were easily accessible but as you climbed the ladder the need for more hardcore types to take control was needed if you wanted to stand a good chance of clearing content.

Yet again the player has options, the casual has the opportunity to access hardcore content if he/she chooses too all while the top tier players spin their genitals like a helicopter and dive headfirst into the pool of loot.

tl;dr - Kings were garbage and a lazy solution to true tiered content. HNM at best amounted to poor mans PVP where people talked trash, AFK'd for hours on end, bragged about not playing XI before AFKing in town with the cool guy gear all while pretending that running cheats or no-lifing took 'skill'.

Oh and yes, I too once took part in the 'fun' of the three-ring circus that was the almighty world spawns and I'll always look back upon it and say 'wow, this was a crock of shit'.

I still don't understand this need to feel superior to others by obtaining gear from things that require no skill to kill. It's just right place, right time, right cheats. If you need to feel like someone on the other side of the screen is raging or having less fun than you then you should get tested for chronic douche bag syndrome. HNMs bred A-holes and A-holes beget A-holes. Eventually all you have is 150 A-holes standing around for 3 hours calling other people A-holes for doing the same A-hole things they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

3. Tiered Progression
Yet another system where the lower tiers would be the realm of the casual player whereas the higher tier NMs would be difficult enough to keep most greenhorns out of action. Systems like ZNMs and Abyssea involved this type of progression where the lower tier monsters were easily accessible but as you climbed the ladder the need for more hardcore types to take control was needed if you wanted to stand a good chance of clearing content.

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You were doing good until you said this. Abyssea was never hard, and was generally just easy, repeated content. The only fun thing about it was racing to one of the time spawned NMs you needed to claim to pop the mob you actually wanted.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I still don't understand this need to feel superior to others by obtaining gear from things that require no skill to kill. It's just right place, right time, right cheats. If you need to feel like someone on the other side of the screen is raging or having less fun than you then you should get tested for chronic douche bag syndrome. HNMs bred A-holes and A-holes beget A-holes. Eventually all you have is 150 A-holes standing around for 3 hours calling other people A-holes for doing the same A-hole things they are doing.

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And all was right in the world

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Originally Posted by Habu

You were doing good until you said this. Abyssea was never hard, and was generally just easy, repeated content. The only fun thing about it was racing to one of the time spawned NMs you needed to claim to pop the mob you actually wanted.

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Glavoid wasn't hard at 80?
Bhukis at 85?
Apademak/Pantokrator/Rani at 90?

I think you're glossing over the fact that some of the Abyssea NMs were tough at their respective caps in order to tow the line that Abyssea had no challenges but I'll put that aside and throw out that even at their caps these NMs were tougher/more complex than the entire gamut of previous HNMs that dominated the game.

"Easily repeated content?"

That sounds alot like Kings or are you going to argue that these old worldspawns were more complex battles? The only difference between KB/Aspid/Nid and the Abyssean mobs is that you could pop them in a shorter timespan with the illusion of competition dispelled.

I say illusion because once the initial MPKing stopped and bots became entrenched pathetic efforts to claim something were futile unless you too joined the ranks and bot or got a lucky claim due to incompetence or wipes.

Quote from earlier in the thread:

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

But adding HNM with side-grades, or duplicate drops from other places - why not?

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Originally Posted by Hayward

People like Dazusu ... simply cannot stand the fact that Abyssea completely wrecked their concept of good equipment going only to those who "deserve" them (i.e. kiss enough behind to make mid-level corporate climbers look askance).

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How exactly did you draw that conclusion from what I posted?

Just because I enjoy HNM, doesn't mean I dislike Abyssea (even though it's stale). Not everyone who enjoyed HNM did so because of 'exclusivity' or 'elitist cliques'. It is completely unnecessary to pigeon-hole everyone that found enjoyment in such content.

As for Abyssea, at the time it was added it was a breath of fresh air, but as I've said before, there's no reason there can't be multiple types of content. If you don't like HNM - don't do them, but why shit your pants because other people might enjoy them (for whatever reason)?

Your post almost just sounds like sheer bitterness. Usually if someone has no interest in something, they just ignore it and go about their business - but its quite alarming the amount of people who just have to express their detest for content that they're never going to bother doing anyway.

Edit:

Sparthos, completely missed your post due to replying to Hayward above, but props to you sir. I'd actually prefer to see content like Hakutaku/Alastor Antlion/Shen or another Sea/Sky-like zone, or ZNM system. That shit would beat new HNM hands down. Sadly, that's even more unlikely to see daylight though.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Glavoid wasn't hard at 80?
Bhukis at 85?
Apademak/Pantokrator/Rani at 90?

I think you're glossing over the fact that some of the Abyssea NMs were tough at their respective caps in order to tow the line that Abyssea had no challenges but I'll put that aside and throw out that even at their caps these NMs were tougher/more complex than the entire gamut of previous HNMs that dominated the game.

"Easily repeated content?"

That sounds alot like Kings or are you going to argue that these old worldspawns were more complex battles? The only difference between KB/Aspid/Nid and the Abyssean mobs is that you could pop them in a shorter timespan with the illusion of competition dispelled.

I say illusion because once the initial MPKing stopped and bots became entrenched pathetic efforts to claim something were futile unless you too joined the ranks and bot or got a lucky claim due to incompetence or wipes.

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No they were not hard at their respective levels as long as you had competent people playing with you. All I'm hearing is bots bots bots bots bots bots. This is a video people cheat in video games all the time, if you don't like it you can do one of two things 1. accept it and play around it 2. qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq

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Originally Posted by Habu

No they were not hard at their respective levels as long as you had competent people playing with you. All I'm hearing is bots bots bots bots bots bots. This is a video people cheat in video games all the time, if you don't like it you can do one of two things 1. accept it and play around it 2. qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq

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Ah yes, the old 'competent' argument precision deployed in a blanket fashion. Nevermind Glavoid shit all over anything the old Kings or even newer mobs like Lambton Worm could muster, they were all snoozefests in the great blanketland of Abyssea where nothing was ever hard, ever.

There is a reason you're hearing 'bots bots bots bots bots' and when you figure that out perhaps you'll arrive at the conclusion as to why no one wants to return to the shitholes of '06 FFXI.

Play around it? How amusing. If world pops don't have the best gear available then no one does it (see: Scylla, Hydra, Vrtra, Jorm) and if it does have the best gear then people cheat the hell out of it and establish monopolies at the expense of the base. Your 'qqqqqqqq' statement simply reveals that behind all the skill taut that you simply desire to dominate endgame through tools and delusions of their being fair play.

Show me one time in this thread where anyone said HNMs were hard? I'll be waiting. I'm sure on your journey looking through posts you'll find multiple ones where I said "HNM's WEREN'T HARD".

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Originally Posted by Winrie

Abyssea ect takes work? last i checked i can auto attack kill anything in the game lately.
Challenge please

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If you had a sufficient intelligence quota paired with the reading comprehension skills of a college student, you'd be able to create a script to play this game more efficiently than you could ever dream.
But the question remains, why haven't you done it yet?

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Oh and yes, I too once took part in the 'fun' of the three-ring circus that was the almighty world spawns and I'll always look back upon it and say 'wow, this was a crock of shit'.

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I was also a part of this since 2005 and I'm only sad it took 3 years to get a Ridill and 5 years to finally get an Ebody. While the camping was easy I am glad this system is dead and buried.

Apologies, weekend went pear-shaped after my last post in this thread, just getting back to it.

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

There's a huge difference between:

• Intentionally gimping yourself to make easy content that anyone can complete harder.

and

• Already hard content that only the best players can complete.

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True i suppose. But there is still the choice to set the difficulty higher for that challenge some ppl say they want.

But then my definition of challenge my be a bit different than that of some. CoP(as much as i loathed it) had challenging fights @75 cap before it was opened up. The only challenge i remember from the HNM scene back in the day was the unstructured PvP-lite antics shells played on one another back then.

The actual fights against the HNMs were complete breezes after the first time in most cases. Outside of a very small few, there were no already hard HNMs back then, not really.

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Originally Posted by Habu

Ok I just tried this with the pops that I had on me. I 4 man'd Glavoid, Ecc Eve, Bria, Itzapop and the Iron Giant in Altepa. It was a little harder I'll give you that but I don't cherish the thought of intentionally gimping myself to make stuff harder. Next you'll tell me do fight them naked or without a weapon.

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Read the whole reply, but bolded the bit that just reinforces my point.

Not picking at you Habu, but outside of the competition between shells back in the day, there was no super challenge in the HNM scene. Name a mob and someone can pull up a strat for it and someone else can go out and slay it. No muss, no fuss-this has not changed one bit since say '06 or thereabouts.

What has changed is that for the most part the need for the big shells are gone. Not going into root causes of that, you should know them. And with no big shells stamping about, competition isn't what it used to be.

I'm gonna posit something now: Maybe it is not challenge that you want, maybe its competition?

And that's fine by me. Like i've said elsewhere though, just own your feelings dude.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

And yet at the end of the day world spawns are still garbage no matter how much nostalgia attempts to coat the harsh reality of an archaic system in a delicious vanilla coating. Many who disagree either had a vested interest in monopolizing these monsters (herpaderp kings are easy when you're using bots), has been taken over by their inner masochist (too much exposure to Tanaka) or simply cannot see the reality of how negatively such a system impacted FFXI.

You want something that caters to not only casuals but the hardcore? I have 3 solutions that make world spawns seem the maniacal ravings of a lunatic madman more concerned with keeping people on the hamster wheel in utter frustration rather than creating a game that people are supposed to enjoy.

1. Hakutaku/Alastor Antlion/Shen style spawns.
Remember the humble Hakutaku? How you had to travel around the world and get drops to create a trigger for him? This would work wonderfully for new HNMs and not only encourage people to play (by farming items) but also drum up a market for those who simply wanted to buy the pop items and spawn some mobs.

Casuals would focus on getting supplies to market, Hardcores would spread their wealth down by purchasing items from those who farmed and this would give everyone a 'chance' to spawn that NM with the shines on a level playing field.

2. Point systems.
This crap has been beaten to death already. If you create a point system where the XXX uber gear is at the top of the list you'd have many casuals quit before they ever amassed the points and all the hardcores looking to be gods among men could repeat whatever content it was that had the gear until they obtained the badass set of badassery.

Again, everyone has a fair opportunity to obtain items and the onus lay on the player to choose how far they want to take the pursuit of gear.

3. Tiered Progression
Yet another system where the lower tiers would be the realm of the casual player whereas the higher tier NMs would be difficult enough to keep most greenhorns out of action. Systems like ZNMs and Abyssea involved this type of progression where the lower tier monsters were easily accessible but as you climbed the ladder the need for more hardcore types to take control was needed if you wanted to stand a good chance of clearing content.

Yet again the player has options, the casual has the opportunity to access hardcore content if he/she chooses too all while the top tier players spin their genitals like a helicopter and dive headfirst into the pool of loot.

tl;dr - Kings were garbage and a lazy solution to true tiered content. HNM at best amounted to poor mans PVP where people talked trash, AFK'd for hours on end, bragged about not playing XI before AFKing in town with the cool guy gear all while pretending that running cheats or no-lifing took 'skill'.

Oh and yes, I too once took part in the 'fun' of the three-ring circus that was the almighty world spawns and I'll always look back upon it and say 'wow, this was a crock of shit'.

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Quoted this post after i had mostly finished the above. Wish i could like it multiple times. The last line is EXACTLY how i reacted at the end of my stint in that whole scene. It was my Ralphie moment(one word-Ovaltine).

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I have a different theory. I think they are pissed because they used to be able to watch Sabrina the Teenage Witch marathons all day while their Bot camped NMs for them, but now they have to somewhat pay attention in abbysea / vnm / NI 2.0 to get the best gear. I think they are pissed because they have to work now. They just pull the "I like competition" and "Camping NMs is hard work" cards so that they don't sound like they are just as lazy as the casuals.

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I can't speak for the others, but for me it's two things. First of all, personally, I like the exclusiveness of rare items. That's also why I went out of my way to camp very rare NMs/drops, because rarity is something that excites me. I like being rewarded for dedication. It's why I wasted 80M on KB and it's also why I still camp Noble Mold. I don't think a Rain Hat will do me much good at this point, but I still wanna have it. I like possessing rare items.

Secondly, I like competition. I know it sounds weird, especially because I hate it in other places (like Dynamis for example), but there is a reason behind it. I like feeling like I'm chasing something big and the feeling when I win against others is great. And I am fully aware that it doesn't have anything at all to do with skill but just luck. But that's always a factor. It's like hunting for a treasure against others, and someone just gets a lucky break and finds it first. That doesn't mean they're more skilled or anything, but that doesn't make the chase any less fun, it doesn't make the thrill go away. The feeling when you get a claim is really rewarding, even if it was just luck and nothing else. I'm sure you'd enjoy winning the lottery as well, even if you know there isn't any skill involved.

And I also must admit that I enjoy the occasional HNM drama, although I know that people will tear this statement apart, but whatever. I liked people raging over a flailed Fafnir, accuse others of all kinds of shit when they lost claim, or wasting everyone's Chainspell by pulling one Knight Crab out of range and holding it. In before "that says all about you as a person", like I care. It was good times and I enjoyed it.

And lastly, I don't need HNM back. I wouldn't care if they never returned, I'm happy thinking about it as something I got a kick out of in the past. That's for two reasons as well. First of all, I still like the game and do plenty of other things. I simply don't need them to enjoy this game. I never did, by the way, I didn't camp them nearly as much as others may have done, mostly due to lack of people to do it with. Secondly, as was also pointed out before, there are better systems in place. Tiered spawned HNMs will always be a better concept, and I certainly wouldn't mind that being added instead of world spawns.

Also, Hayward:
There's two entirely different arguments here. People complain about difficulty and people complain about exclusivity. Two entirely different things and completely unrelated. I don't think anyone at all thinks HNM were hard (although some fights actually were harder than most other things in the game). I'm not conflating those two terms, difficulty is entirely off-topic here. Exclusivity is an entirely desirable attribute on its own, which is what this is about to me.

Pft, old school HNM can bite my Elvaan behind.

I don't miss it. In fact, most people don't miss it.

If you miss the so called "challenge" from old endgame then go do VW and Aby w/o buffs. If you want to go and "camp" (read: sit and do nothing for hours) land kings all over again then go and do it, nobody is stopping you. Likewise, if you want old exp party format then go and make one, but don't come to these forums and give SE bad ideas/advice. They're liable to follow it.

This game becoming more casual player friendly is one of the best things that's ever happened to it, hands down. If anything it needs to keep moving forward, not backwards. If anything SE needs to go back and either revive old content or get rid of it altogether.

Brb intentionally gimping myself while going to camp land kings that aren't there anymore. Do you realize how dumb of a post that was?

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Originally Posted by Habu

Brb intentionally gimping myself while going to camp land kings that aren't there anymore. Do you realize how dumb of a post that was?

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You mean to tell me you don't like sitting around doing nothing?

D=!!! omgnowai!!

Golly Gee! Habu! Here I thought this is precisely what your post was about!

/end sarcasm

Cause that's pretty much what you did in old school endgame and that's precisely why people don't want to go back to it.

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Originally Posted by Anapingofness

Pft, old school HNM can bite my Elvaan behind.

I don't miss it. In fact, most people don't miss it.

If you miss the so called "challenge" from old endgame then go do VW and Aby w/o buffs. If you want to go and "camp" (read: sit and do nothing for hours) land kings all over again then go and do it, nobody is stopping you. Likewise, if you want old exp party format then go and make one, but don't come to these forums and give SE bad ideas/advice. They're liable to follow it.

This game becoming more casual player friendly is one of the best things that's ever happened to it, hands down. If anything it needs to keep moving forward, not backwards. If anything SE needs to go back and either revive old content or get rid of it altogether.

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Bolded to point out retardation, If most people didn't like the system then you wouldn't have a thread so large about the topic. Secondly sorry, having to gimp yourself on purpose to 'enjoy' something is not good game design, if i have to forcefully make myself weak to enjoy a challenge then something has to change.

I'm also sorry but mentioning glavoid ect. is foolish, let alone anything Abyssea related, every mob in abyssea was difficult, yet still easily manageable at their related level caps at the time. And as the months went by it got stupider, and easier, to a point now a BST can solo mostly everything in this game now when it hits 99, most cases even lower level. But seriously, if you don't like a system or suggestion someone makes on the forums, i think simply inputting your opinion yes or no is smarter than ranting on about how stupid it is, everyone has a different preference in how they play this game, from you to habu, telling someone to not bring their ideas to these forums defeats the purpose of the forums itself. Sorry~

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Originally Posted by Anapingofness

You mean to tell me you don't like sitting around doing nothing?

D=!!! omgnowai!!

Golly Gee! Habu! Here I thought this is precisely what your post was about!

/end sarcasm

Cause that's pretty much what you did in old school endgame and that's precisely why people don't want to go back to it.

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I still camp Tiamat since it's pretty much the last worthwhile HNM, she is good to me, usually brings in 18-36M split between two people.

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Originally Posted by Winrie

But seriously, if you don't like a system or suggestion someone makes on the forums, i think simply inputting your opinion yes or no is smarter than ranting on about how stupid it is, everyone has a different preference in how they play this game, from you to habu, telling someone to not bring their ideas to these forums defeats the purpose of the forums itself. Sorry~

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Quoted for truth

Funny this arguing is going on forever. Most of you wouldn't care if all the elite drops from HNM's could also be acquired through another means. At least that is what your posts seem to say. And, I think that you then would be left with the group that likes camping HNM's for the sake of that system and not the elitism. Everyone wins. Whether S/E would implement such a thing is another question.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I can't speak for the others, but for me it's two things. First of all, personally, I like the exclusiveness of rare items. That's also why I went out of my way to camp very rare NMs/drops, because rarity is something that excites me. I like being rewarded for dedication. It's why I wasted 80M on KB and it's also why I still camp Noble Mold. I don't think a Rain Hat will do me much good at this point, but I still wanna have it. I like possessing rare items.

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I can appreciate the rare item sentiment but yet again world spawns aren't needed for this and at least to me, collecting a bunch of rare items from around the world to do battle with a badass monster that has a rare drop is in every way superior to sitting at a spot, waiting days on end for it spawn only to lose it to the guy running a bot while he's asleep.

When I got my Hachiryu Haidate and Haramaki I was thrilled because I built those popsets, I helped kill all the trash mobs and finally when Pandemonium Warden came around I had the knowledge that I had been involved at every point in getting these two pieces of very rare and highly sought gear and none of it involved AFKing for hours on end. I was... playing FFXI and earning my keep.

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Secondly, I like competition. I know it sounds weird, especially because I hate it in other places (like Dynamis for example), but there is a reason behind it. I like feeling like I'm chasing something big and the feeling when I win against others is great. And I am fully aware that it doesn't have anything at all to do with skill but just luck. But that's always a factor. It's like hunting for a treasure against others, and someone just gets a lucky break and finds it first. That doesn't mean they're more skilled or anything, but that doesn't make the chase any less fun, it doesn't make the thrill go away. The feeling when you get a claim is really rewarding, even if it was just luck and nothing else. I'm sure you'd enjoy winning the lottery as well, even if you know there isn't any skill involved.

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There was very little 'competition' at Kings by the time programs took over the claiming processes on most servers. Your lottery analogy works in RL because everyone has a fair (albeit microscopic) chance of winning but this was not the case with the competitive aspects of FFXI. Would people be so eager to put down money in RL if the odds were not only microscopic but it were known that certain people had higher odds through seeing some of the numbers prior to a drawing? There was very little luck here, just guys desperate enough to pay good sums for bots that gave an advantage over others and worse, SE couldn't/didn't do a thing about it.

Competition is great but if we really wanted competition in XI we'd be asking to create a PVP or team PVP system within the existing framework of Brenner where some level of skill would determine if your team won or lost matches. If people really wanted the 'thrills' of dynamic environments where your opponents moves were to some extent were unknown sprinkled in with the boons of drama that came with wins or losses PVP again does a superior job of delivering that style of content to Kings. Players get to bring skill to the table and put up, the really skilled would be rewarded, the less skilled would get owned by the vets and drama would be in excess across the board.

Why does no one bring PVP to the table? Because to some extent the idea of dominating claims, being the liege lord of Ebodies - deciding who gets to don the blue suit of win - was intoxicating. The calls of skill and competition will always take a backseat to the nature of wanting to 'own' an HNM by any tools necessary.

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And I also must admit that I enjoy the occasional HNM drama, although I know that people will tear this statement apart, but whatever. I liked people raging over a flailed Fafnir, accuse others of all kinds of shit when they lost claim, or wasting everyone's Chainspell by pulling one Knight Crab out of range and holding it. In before "that says all about you as a person", like I care. It was good times and I enjoyed it.

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I too enjoyed drama to some extent (nerdraging over losing Sandworm because hes a slow POS, claiming Dark Ixion and holding him on solo RNG while my guys poured into zone, enjoying the LS vitriol when someone CFH'd Aspid at 2AM standout) but at that point my enjoyment was coming at the expense of the game as a whole. The game shouldn't have been for only a handful of people and by '09 this game was in a crappy place because SE built the entire game around that core elite event that became infested with people so desperate to 'own' that the worst type of people became internet celebrities while actual players were left with three choices:

1. Struggle through the hoops of content like Einherjar while the cheaters cheat.
2. Pay highly inflated sums to people gaming the system.
3. Quit this MMO and move on to greener pastures.

If we really wanted hardcore, top of the crop elitist drama we all should have been playing EVE online instead of this. XI just never delivered and most of the content when we boil away the emotions were pretty poorly pieced together and Kings was one of the worst offenders.

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Originally Posted by Habu

Your post and the one before it just makes my head hurt... we're lazy and don't want to work yet "most" of the "elite" still have the best gear, regardless of how much we have to "work" for it. You know that kind os defines the term "elite" having the best gear possible or damn near it, and since we have "no lives" we have infinite time to do all this "work". Seriously enough with the bot garbage, not everyone who claimed/did HNMs botted, that's just a poor excuse for a person who either A. just got outclaimed or B. doesn't like HNMs.

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You say people got out claimed as is that had anything to do with skill level. It didn't. and for the record, I had every good King drop except for D ring back at 75.

I don't like HNM because I like to play FFXI. I don't like to just have it running on the other screen to keep me company. A 3 hour spawn window means 3 hours of not playing. I can not play a game for 3 hours from anywhere in the world without paying 12.95 a month. As a matter of fact, trying to explain why you want to pay to do nothing for 3 hours a day is a sure sign of dementia.

People still camp all those crappy NMs required for Empyrian weapons. Why don't you go bot those? You could get tons of competition that way. I'm sure people would love you.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

You say people got out claimed as is that had anything to do with skill level. It didn't. and for the record, I had every good King drop except for D ring back at 75.

I don't like HNM because I like to play FFXI. I don't like to just have it running on the other screen to keep me company. A 3 hour spawn window means 3 hours of not playing. I can not play a game for 3 hours from anywhere in the world without paying 12.95 a month. As a matter of fact, trying to explain why you want to pay to do nothing for 3 hours a day is a sure sign of dementia.

People still camp all those crappy NMs required for Empyrian weapons. Why don't you go bot those? You could get tons of competition that way. I'm sure people would love you.

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I post my thread again,
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-Lv99%E2%80%8F
This is the thread i made about how we could reintroduce and made HNM world pop better, you can think my ideas are bad or what you want, but if you have better idea(s) about how reintroduce World Pop HNM, you should start a Thread about it :p

But i agree old world pop HNM with 3 hours+ camp was a too long wait

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Originally Posted by Randwolf

Funny this arguing is going on forever. Most of you wouldn't care if all the elite drops from HNM's could also be acquired through another means. At least that is what your posts seem to say. And, I think that you then would be left with the group that likes camping HNM's for the sake of that system and not the elitism. Everyone wins. Whether S/E would implement such a thing is another question.

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Actually I don't want to see them go down this path at all. The game is actually better by its omission. That's how awful a concept the 21-24+ hour HNM is. A system that breeds inactivity, botting, and drama the way HNM did is nothing but a blight upon the game and its community.

One of the smartest things SE has ever done is change the old kings and move present/future content into more active, inclusive, and cooperative directions. Alternate sources of loot be damned. I'd forgo the shiniest shinies of all just to not have Vana'diel polluted with this ridiculous, archaic nonsense ever again.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

You say people got out claimed as is that had anything to do with skill level. It didn't. and for the record, I had every good King drop except for D ring back at 75.

I don't like HNM because I like to play FFXI. I don't like to just have it running on the other screen to keep me company. A 3 hour spawn window means 3 hours of not playing. I can not play a game for 3 hours from anywhere in the world without paying 12.95 a month. As a matter of fact, trying to explain why you want to pay to do nothing for 3 hours a day is a sure sign of dementia.

People still camp all those crappy NMs required for Empyrian weapons. Why don't you go bot those? You could get tons of competition that way. I'm sure people would love you.

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Because current FFXI still doesn't require you to wait for something, it does. If you don't want to do HNMs don't do them, no one will be forcing you. Again bots, diaf. I don't bot my LS never did, and we had a pretty decent claim rate. This especially goes for DI/SW and yet I still would like to see something like Faf/KB/Aspid brought back because I liked them. Did we claim everyday no, was it still for ~>ME<~ yes.

EVE Online is a pretty epic game, actually. lolz

love it lol

still want new world hnm though.

I love how everyones getting screwed by vw, legion and neo nyzul ( and probably soon to be other events) and yet they still TREMBLE WITH FEAR, WITH THE THOUGHT OF WORLD SPAWNING MONSTERS!

Honestly, the events now are as backbreaking as they ever were, it's just hidden behind a different game mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Habu

Because current FFXI still doesn't require you to wait for something, it does. If you don't want to do HNMs don't do them, no one will be forcing you.

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Thanks for pointing that out. there are probably a few other areas where they could eliminate waiting too. People are required to wait for lots of things. I have yet to hear anyone say they wished there was more waiting in life. Are you one of the slowski turtles from the broadband commercials on TV? If so which one? the husband or the wife?

If they added HNMs with shit gear, no one would do them. It's all about the gear. As long as the gear from these HNMs is anywhere near as good / easy to get as other methods, people will be more or less forced to do them.

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Originally Posted by Habu

Again bots, diaf. I don't bot my LS never did, and we had a pretty decent claim rate. This especially goes for DI/SW and yet I still would like to see something like Faf/KB/Aspid brought back because I liked them. Did we claim everyday no, was it still for ~>ME<~ yes.

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Yes bots again. They are a fact, not fiction. You can't change that no matter how many times you blab about how you have the mad claiming skillz.