i think i ftfyQuote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
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11-29-2011, 01:53 PMLeonlionheart
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11-29-2011, 01:58 PMLeonlionhearttbh I leave out DRG because it has poor survivability. Very very hard to cap PDT w/o Mekira Meikogeki and Defending Ring. The job loses even more than WAR does, because of no Chersos Helm/Rvg. Cuisses +2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
Edit: Although you can heal yourself with your wyvern, it's too slow to be reliable. If you're WHM hasn't healed you by the point your wyvern is going to heal you, you're either not in danger or already dead. -
11-29-2011, 02:07 PMGreatguardianFair enough. I certainly wouldn't be looking for a DRG to be tanking anything, or holding hate for any extended period of time if at all possible. One of the nice things about lances is that since they're even slower than GAs, you're unlikely to have a DRG holding hate in any pack of heavy DDs if only due to the fact that they hit less often than Mnks and other 2-handers (capped hate and all that).Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
I was thinking mainly as a damage dealer, first and foremost, where survivability is pretty much already taken care of by the big 3. If you want pure, unadulterated damage, Dragoon's up there pretty easily. -
11-29-2011, 02:08 PMDivinechildI think thats because of what they did to them in ToAU with colobriQuote:
Originally Posted by Aeonk
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11-29-2011, 02:14 PMLeonlionheartNo doubt, and if it wasn't for every single relevant NM 1) doing 700~ AoEs and 2) dying in 3~7 minutes I'd say DRG would be a vital part of a party. Extremely high damage where you can shed hate in OSHI situations? Yes please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
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11-29-2011, 02:23 PMAlhanelemExcept it's not sosososo bad, because it's true.Quote:
Lumping DRG in with PUP and BST is so so so bad. I don't particularly care about how you and your friends perform. Anecdotal evidence really is the best evidence.
The pet is far more important to PUP and BST, and in both cases contributes far more than the wyvern does, and I'm considering the indirect benefit to jumps in that.Quote:
As I said earlier, the Wyvern being alive isn't important because of its own damage, it's important because it buffs Spirit/Soul jumps. That's the only important "Pet" portion of Dragoon.
Well, it's not "inane tripe," its real, reasonable statements, but I'll save you the trouble of having details to respond to since you'd likely just declare it more "inane tripe" no matter how much truth there is in it. All you do is talk about how bad these jobs are without backing it up, with the specific objective of getting me to do what you say I'm likely to do.Quote:
I could care less what you think on the matter, considering all you're likely to do is huff around about how great pet jobs can be in the right hands and other such inane tripe.
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11-29-2011, 02:25 PMLeonlionheart
PUP all together sucks, get over it dude.
BST too, outside of being the god of solo. -
11-29-2011, 02:27 PMAlhanelemNice troll bait there broQuote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
GG is more subtle, at least. -
11-29-2011, 02:57 PMGreatguardian
Do you really not realize we're talking purely from a group-oriented standpoint where the only important factor for these jobs is the damage they're able to deal with buffs from other specialized players? Or are you honestly so jaded that you think PUP comes remotely close to MNK, WAR, or SAM in terms of raw damage?
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11-29-2011, 03:42 PMArconIt actually did come close for a while, when they got 10 TP/tick Regain on Burattinaios. After that, they got demoted to sidelines entertainment again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
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11-29-2011, 03:50 PMGreatguardianMaybe without buffs or with magic haste onry, sure. The achilles' heel of pet jobs is and always will be their pet's inability to contribute meaningful damage in group situations (eg, ones with buffs)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
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11-29-2011, 05:41 PMLeonlionheart
PUP is fun, but that's all it is. No reason to have it other than for the lulz.
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11-29-2011, 06:38 PMAlhanelemNo, that's not all it is. If any job has defects, those defects should be repaired. If you feel that something can only be done "for the lulz" then there are problems that need fixing. No job deserves to be completely unwanted, otherwise there's no reason for it to exist in the first place. If it can't be fixed to where osmeone would want it for something, then it should just be removed. the fun value of a job is diminished if it can't be put to good use for anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
Would you still be saying that if they nerfed the crap out of war and there was no longer any reason to play it except "for the lulz"?
Every job deserves to have something in the game for which it is a strength or asset to have. If you can't think of anything, than either the job needs to be adjusted or content needs to be added or adjusted for it to shine in. But you disagree, because as long as you can kick ass on WAR/MNK/SAM and have a white mage curing you, you don't care about anything else. -
11-29-2011, 06:42 PMLeonlionheartNope! because that would be all it isQuote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
even if the puppet is fixed, unless it gets march/haste samba/cor buffs, PUP will fall by the wayside (unless it's all of a sudden able to spam Cure V) -
11-29-2011, 06:44 PMAlhanelemThe same can be said for ANY job. this is about the dumbest thing I've ever seen you say. Proper support should always be given if available.Quote:
even if the puppet is fixed, unless it gets march/haste samba/cor buffs
I can get march/haste samba/cor buffs anytime you can. Outside buffs are not part of a job and cannot be used to measure it.
It already does that. Cure VI, in fact (But with the update, it will not waste MP on cure VI when a lesser heal would be enough)Quote:
(unless it's all of a sudden able to spam Cure V)
Edit: If you're referring to the puppet getting those buffs, it absoltuely does not require those things in order for the player to be able to compete. It is a minor flaw, but the master is capable of putting out enough damage to where the automaton's output gives the performance needed to close the gap.
Go ahead and work some math out in your head. PUP wouldn't just compete, it would decimate the competition if both master and automaton had maximum possible haste. SE doesn't do this because they know it would be overpowered. -
11-29-2011, 07:52 PMLeonlionheart
POIDH (yes i did mean the puppet)
PUP is terribad. Face it. If the pet did get haste it would be slightly different, but still wouldn't be anything close to a competing DD.
I've parsed against great PUPs and am afraid to tell them the results because it's just onesided (DRG(contus/zelus/aresbody/dusk+1/4%bestia/aces) vs PUP(magianstr, 4/5 AF3+2, and Enkidu's feet) vs THF(pink) 54% vs 31% vs 9%) and that was on Chickcharney in Abyssea with full dominion buffs and everyone (other than lolthf) sporting RR/SS/Apoc. No marches or haste was given, other than Hasso on me, the DRG.
That was when my DRG was severely gimped too(only +1 legs out of all AF3)...
Don't tell me that Atmas push things in DRG's favor either, Stringing Pummel is affected heavily by RR and SS.
Edit: I included the pet damage into the totals -
11-30-2011, 02:22 AMGreatguardian
I know why puppets don't get Haste. Doesn't mean that the lack of Haste isn't absolutely crippling to the job in any serious group setting. An unhasted puppet will never "close the gap" between PUP melee and MNK melee in a group setting, ever.
Throwing fully buffed PUPs and fully buffed MNKs at Qilin on Kine's spreadsheet, the MNK is doing 387 damage/second with Vereth 90, and the PUP is doing 253 damage/second with Vereth 90 - without pet and not using maneuvers, since those subtract from master damage. If you want to add pet's damage into the mix, I'll input that the PUP will use one maneuver every 20 seconds (that's reasonable, eh?), that drops their DPS down to 230.
When your puppet is able to do 160 damage/second to Qilin, let me know. -
11-30-2011, 04:50 AMRukkirii
After sending off your feedback, the dev. team let me know that not all content going forward will have a weakness system, so don’t worry!
Keep up the good work with voicing your feedback. ^_^ -
11-30-2011, 04:54 AMKitkatQuote:
Originally Posted by Rukkirii
Thank god... -
11-30-2011, 04:54 AMElexia
Well that sucks, I liked the stagger systems (since it also influenced drop rates, you know, that thing people complained about in a lot of XI's events?)
Ah well. -
11-30-2011, 05:09 AMhikoread: some of the new content will still have a weakness system (just not all, can hope for VW only)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rukkirii
yes but when 75% of battle time is procing, most of people are only here to proc and nothing pop in coffer it justQuote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
sucks. -
11-30-2011, 05:38 AMLeonlionheartgo die in a fire, etcQuote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
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11-30-2011, 06:00 AMUnleashhellHow about no more revamped content has triggers. I guess cept Voidwatch since it is already in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rukkirii
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11-30-2011, 06:35 AMFrankReynolds
Blah people posted so fast.
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11-30-2011, 06:37 AMCamiieQuote:
Originally Posted by Rukkirii
Thanks much, Rukkirii! It's nice to know we'll have a little variety.
While you're in touch with the devs, replace that Moogle ball thingy with one off an Orobon and try to Hypnic Lamp some super secret info out of them on our future events and the systems they'll use! Also have them send all their gil to Camiie on Fenrir server! Thanks! -
11-30-2011, 06:40 AMZeoThat's good to hear. I didn't mind it in abyssea but it got redundant after VW and dynamis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rukkirii
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11-30-2011, 07:13 AMMarkovChain
No more voidwatch ty.
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11-30-2011, 07:44 AMBabekeke
Not all.... but some.
Edit: Bah failed to notice the extra page of posts since Rukkiri's, and Hiko beat me to it... by about 3 hours. -
11-30-2011, 08:20 AMMarkovChainBecause 4% pdt matters. Dude It's 2011. Cure V skinned. Trying too hard to make gear that is mainly invo +1 and not worth the effort nor macroing nor filling your inventory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
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11-30-2011, 08:24 AMJuilanCan we petition SE for a new Dev team if they do it in salvage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rukkirii
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11-30-2011, 09:37 AMAsymptotic
SE gives people a way to drastically increase payoff for a little bit of extra busy work, and people whine because they'd rather engage and watch netflix with autotarget on.
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11-30-2011, 09:51 AMhidekaprocs werent that bad, but having procs on all new content would be .... annoying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rukkirii
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11-30-2011, 09:54 AMCamiieReally? Who said that? Please do quote them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asymptotic
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11-30-2011, 09:57 AMDohatiwith 10TP regain, pup dmg was unreal... can't believe you only give it credit for "coming close". obviously, every pup you've ever seen is doing it wrong. that 1 weapon aside, pup can hold it's own no problem. ever since pup's h2h skill was upgraded a few ranks and SE started giving access to real melee gear, there hasn't been a problem (as far as dmg goes. mages' AI always needed serious fixing but that's on the way!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
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11-30-2011, 10:04 AMVold
Getting back on topic...
Procs in general have never been the issue. It's the requirement of procs that nobody likes. They should be a little more like TH in the sense it's no extra effort to get it on, and a lot less like "get the proc or else no realistic chance at drop" Abyssea had it right except for them being tied to game time which just turned it into a cookie cutter fest. Had it been truly random, with a bit higher drop rates on certain things, atmas and KI drops being drastically increased, and not such a drastic increase in drops when procs landed(0-1 seal vs 4), there would have been an awful lot less complaining going around because it would have been status quo with the occasional "woot we got some procs tonight for more drops" joy on the side.
Don't be so quick to dismiss the system in general. It is getting us more drops that otherwise we wouldn't be getting. But the use of them needs a serious overhaul from what they've become in VW and so far with Dynamis currency being nerfed and the proc requirement as the trade off for a once per day, open for all content.
So, to sum things up, refine procs to better serve the players. Weaknesses are a nice addition. They just need to be better implemented so we aren't spending more time than not standing around watching someone else play the game. As a matter of fact we need to be never standing around waiting for procs to land. So either untie them to drop rates and become more strategic for victory or make them super rare so no one has an excuse to ever waste one second disengaged with their backs turned. Either way enough with the narrow minded view on both the player and developer side that the only possible use for procs is to increase drop rates 100% of the time. Players don't want to be doomed to standing around waiting for procs to land and devs don't want to give away loot like it's candy. Find a middle ground so exploiting a monster's weakness for strategic purposes can remain part of the game because I'm so sorry but I didn't sign up for ZergXI.
TLDR: I said some stuff. Some more stuff. And some more stuff. And I wasn't talking to you. Go back to doing whatever it is you do in between not reading things and don't worry about it.
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11-30-2011, 11:02 AMFrankReynoldsNope, they just want to be able to occasionally do full damage instead of procs, and / or bring jobs that don't proc well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asymptotic
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11-30-2011, 05:14 PMArconNO U .Quote:
Originally Posted by Dohati
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11-30-2011, 05:43 PMLeonlionheartUnfortunately PUPs don't seem to be able to provide real results through parses and maths, so this is about what all arguments with them will eventually amount to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
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12-01-2011, 03:31 AMGodofgodsQuote:
Originally Posted by Rukkirii
You're welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitkat
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12-01-2011, 06:15 AMAlhanelemWell, you don't do that either, you even said you had parses but you didn't want to reveal them...Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
Even if I went out and tried to parse and provide you with real results, you'd throw them out because the people I have avialble to work with aren't as elite as you are and among the people I've worked with recently, so you'd just say "well I still wouldn't take them because your WAR wasn't a perfectly geared Ukon WAR" or something like that. Also, among my circle of friends, I'm the only one with DNC and also the only one with PUP, which creates a problem in providing haste samba.
Anyway. Your contention is that effectively, PUP gains less from haste than other jobs because the automaton isn't affected, making it less able to make up the performance gap left by the master's lower base stats (and as a secondary effect, PUP is slowed down more by job ability use than most jobs). I assume I'm reading that right. I don't fully agree, but I want to make sure we're on the same page.
Now, this may be a silly line of discussion, but I would like to see this situation analyzed:
Let's just say for a moment, that all haste of every kind was removed from the game (martial arts and DW delay reductions remain in place). Would this significantly alter what jobs rank where in terms of DPS? Does this bring PUP/SMN/BST into contention? Because effectively, the less haste there is, the stronger these jobs are. Or, flip it around: Let's just say that all of everyone has max haste and we add max haste to all pets. Are they now competitive?