MNK/WAR tank I'm confused Please Assist

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Originally Posted by Monchat

Not sure I understand your logic. Doing thing with 6 people is stupid yet VW is cool? Who farm seals/gems w/o BLM BRD and THF +whm+dd at least? Soloer who have no friends? You forgot to add NIN to the list for red procing.

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My logic being RDM and BRD are entirely OTT that only noobs need. I neither specified they were farming seals or gems and nowhere said 6 PEOPLE either (2 people, 6 accounts). Pchan, I assume because of his attitude to others and delusions of grandeur that make him think he's elite, let alone good, has only Mdkuser to play with and the mules they have and when it comes to VW they will not be able to do a thing is what I am saying.

kam just so you know .... that IS pchan he has 2 accounts.

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Originally Posted by Kam

You said Abyssea sucked and was trash, then I saw you come back and spend 24/7 in Abyssea with 4 mule accounts between you and your friend. While I agree that the VW drops available now aren't enough motivation to get into it, post patch you're flat out wrong. There are tons of pieces that are clearly VW drops and it will be laughable to see you unable to obtain them with your only one friend and 4 mules you need to kill anything (yes, I have watched you, you never do anything without MNK THF WHM RDM BLM BRD rofl).

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Post patch drops suck. Which are you considering as decent ? I'm only interested in MNK and WHM personnally. I saw a neck with att and kick attack damage + however there are two sources that contradict each other, one putting monk on the job list and not the other one. The vast majority of seems to be flat out fail. The gear we do know will come from VW (+synergy) are the ones with HQ version and the best I saw was a head gear for 3 jobs and a body with a wierd spelling "pdt -8% and converts damage to TP+14%". I've seen an update saying it reads converts damage to TP +14 and only for the HQ while the NQ has +10 I think. What does this means ? It's probably crap not even worth macroing. I don't see SE giving melee a body that converts 14% of the damage taken to real TP, it would mean getting hit with 400 damage gets you 56 TP ...

Also, I'm not sure why you are angry at mdk and me (like gokku and the BG butthurt crowd), but It's common knowledge that all VNMs are right now 6-able. I know BG like to kill big NMs since back to dragon's aery era and it made them feel superior but hey it's over and VW is definitely not hard nor on the same scale as say einherjar as far as skill goes. The next VU will make the current ones jokes for one and the next paths will probably be easily farmable. Problem is there is no real reason to do it. This is the first boomerang from the monopolity of abyssea. Voidwatch has been designed is 1 day.

But maybe you can develop on what you think will be good gear from voidwatch ?

Also no our jobs setup are typically

verex2 MNK, relic + daurdabla brd, daurdabla brd, RDM, WHM. For VW we use SMN instead of RDM. We used to use THF but I facepalmed on TH3+ being a complete joke.

EDIT : yes you can probably find something decent for some job (I saw cure pot gear for non WHM). However until whm doesn't have monopolity on cure 5 all other cure jobs will suck. We all know what it means when SE say they want to specify SCH or RDM in a different way than WHM. It means that for the rest of the game life SCH and RDM will not be useful, that noone will want to go out of their way to farm gear for them, and that abyssea gear will prevail and keep WHM number one. Give RDM cure V then we can discuss about voidwatch gear not sucking.

I'd bother to copy pasta all the good, blatantly obvious, VW gear if I thought it would mean anything to you but let's face it, your mind is set and you're gonna be angry and shallow minded about it til you NEED the gear, EXACTLY like Abyssea. Am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by Gokku

kam just so you know .... that IS pchan he has 2 accounts.

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If by 2 you mean 3-4. I know exactly who and how pchan is, everyone is WRONG and gimp til he has to face the facts and obtain said gear.

So what gear do you think is awesome, or even decent, please tell us. I think you have no clue yourself and that you are a sheep that follows what your LS leaders tell you to do. You know, old dynamis, old HNMs, I bet you were doing that at 75 w. This reminds me of the people that farmed ixion cerberus or khimaira at 75, and TBH, I think SE released VW for this kind of people. Only crap drops and at best a one million item to split between 10.

Toci's Harness Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:60 STR+13 DEX+13 Accuracy+10
Attack+10 "Double Attack"+3%
Sphere: Haste+2%
Set: "Triple Attack"+3%
Lv95 MNK THF BST RNG NIN BLU COR PUP DNC

Heka's Kalasiris Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:51 MND+17 "Cure" potency +15%
"Cure" spellcasting time -15%
Adds "Refresh" effect
Sphere: Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Set: Adds improved "Refresh" effect
Lv95 WHM BLM RDM BRD SMN PUP SCH

Mekira Meikogai Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:70 VIT+17 Damage taken -8%
Converts physical damage taken to TP +14
Sphere: "Double Attack"+3%
Set: Haste+8%
Lv95 WAR PLD DRK BST SAM DRG

There will be a R/Ex version of this with much higher stats (HQ is STR+16 Attack+30):
Mekira-oto
Head
DEF:40 STR+15 Attack+25
Elemental weapon skill damage
increases depending on day
Set: Haste+8%
Lv95 WAR PLD DRK BST SAM DRG

Just a few examples of what we KNOW will drop from VW before it's added. This is where you excuse yourself from getting most of it because you only play MNK and THF and claim WAR SAM etc are pointless, when the truth is that you don't play them because you can't obtain the gear.

Oh and as for current VW drops the body pieces for mages is the best for Enhancing Magic, the best nuking body for RDM inside Abyssea and most likely outside because of the accuracy (inb4 RDM is now useless etc). Keep excusing yourself from needing the best gear Pchan, it makes you look awesome.

You said it RDM is useless so thanks for explaining the arguments before I mention them. Why would I care about nuking on RDM when I could level BLM get full AF3+2 in ~2 days and be better at pretty much anything except refreshing ?

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Toci's Harness Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:60 STR+13 DEX+13 Accuracy+10
Attack+10 "Double Attack"+3%
Sphere: Haste+2%
Set: "Triple Attack"+3%
Lv95 MNK THF BST RNG NIN BLU COR PUP DNC

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For monk this body doesn't stand a chance against AF3+2 wether WS or melee. You never wondered why SE put 15 str and 15 attack as well as 15 accuracy on AF3+2 and this body is inferior in all those stats ? Nevermind the increase impetus part or the MA art decrease !

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Mekira Meikogai Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:70 VIT+17 Damage taken -8%
Converts physical damage taken to TP +14
Sphere: "Double Attack"+3%
Set: Haste+8%
Lv95 WAR PLD DRK BST SAM DRG

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There are better -dt bodies and I'm putting money on the "convert damage" capping at 100 damage taken. Crap. It doesn't even have melee stats on it so it's a macro only. Until someone shows what it does I'd like to know how you can conclude it's awesome.

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There will be a R/Ex version of this with much higher stats (HQ is STR+16 Attack+30):
Mekira-oto
Head
DEF:40 STR+15 Attack+25
Elemental weapon skill damage
increases depending on day
Set: Haste+8%
Lv95 WAR PLD DRK BST SAM DRG

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I suppose you won't use it for elemental damage ? Correct me if I'm wrong but ukko's is 2 hit so double attack or crit hit rate work fully on all hit. AF3+2 head is

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STR+8 VIT+8 Accuracy+14 Attack+14 Critical hit rate +3% "Double Attack"+4%

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is lacking 7 str and 11 attack. Due to the very high base damage on the empy, and high mods, 7 str is essentially crap as boost :
base (131) + fstr (14) + 0.85*0.6*150=221.5 base WSC. Adding 7 str is a boost of 1.5% in damage. 10 attack on WAR mean almost nothing, I mean berserk RCB etc exist. Now assume the 10 attack are still usefull and that with the few attack you get from the 7 str difference you manage to reach +1% per 4 attack, you get maybe +3% damage from the attack.

so this body is ~ +4.5% damage compared to an AF3+2 head with no crit or DA.
DA can proc on both hits equally, crit too. 3% crit is about +3% damage already. +4% DA rate is a bit less than 4% : if you ws with 30% DA already, which is likely, that's 3% boost.

conclusion : AF3+2 head is better than this crap by about 1.5%... And I didn't count the accuracy boost that will happen for the second hit...

=> AF3+2 or bust.

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Lv95 WAR PLD DRK BST SAM DRG

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good - bad -bad - bad - bad - bad. kay ?

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when the truth is that you don't play them because you can't obtain the gear.

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The truth is that the gear sucks and that noone does it.

1. That first body is the best Mercy Stroke and Rudra's Storm body outside Abyssea, no SA or TA because I know you're not going to try and pretend THF stacks them often in 2011. Among, I'm sure, other uses.
2. Really? Please show me either a PDT or MDT body for Warrior or Paladin with higher than 8%, not forgetting that Retaliation tanking this should produce ridiculous amounts of TP and therefore be the best DD body also, despite the lack of any other melee stats.
3. I posted it mostly for SAM, I guess you can write that off as an irrelevant job if you like, I'll give you that one.
4. RDM is still the best Salvage healer, for example, while YOU may have capped Salvage gear that doesn't make you right.

I'll continue this argument after the patch when we find out which other pieces are from Voidwatch.

1) THF is not a DD, it's there to poke TH, look @ my RDM comments (and in case of VW, facepalm)
2) PLD body is better because of +HP... WAR don't care about pdt, if they would they should also not use their stance nor berserk or agressor for instance. WAR is there for DD, if they take too much damage switch to monk.
3) SAM look at RDM
4) Wait so because RDM is helpful 20 min into salvage we should be farming 60 NMs to farm outdated gear because SE once decided to put salvage gear to trash ?

If SE decides tomorrow to actually fix THF ( Bully is their fix so far lol) or RDM ( cure V, we don't get it yet, we got a rdm melee spell essentially worthless), pld (still sucks, including voidwatch, pld needs damage +) then maybe we can discuss. It's not me saying that I don't like the jobs so that I don't farm the gear. It's me saying that you will never find anyone willing to spent their playtime upgrading jobs that SE purposely decided to make gimp at something. In the case of thf and sam it is gimp at DD and in the case of rdm it is gimp at healing. If tomorrow SE decides to release gear in voidwatch that is an improvement for the top 6 jobs, then we can discuss? I'm sorry it's not the case atm.

WHM is an overpowered mage job = the reality of the game.
2 DDs not sucking = reality of the game
THF being a TH whore = reality.

PS : this is me talking like this on RDM, even though my level 75 RDM had extremely good gear. SE destroyed RDM.. There was a time where duoing THF + RDM was pretty productive in many thing. Due to TH3+ sucking a basic MNK/NIN+WHM/THF is a lot better.

Jeez, I think that last post gave me eye cancer.

THF isn't a DD? Who have you been playing with? Voidwatch is bad? This is my first experience with pchan, is he trolling?

no hes 100% serious. but sadly not 100% wrong nore right, to most people thf isnt a DD and very few thfs you encounter could even be called more then dead weight * hello all the thfs on carby without max TH gear wtf *

honestly my thf isnt a "DD" its a dyna th and proc whore and sack puller.

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Originally Posted by Shadowsong

Jeez, I think that last post gave me eye cancer.

THF isn't a DD? Who have you been playing with? Voidwatch is bad? This is my first experience with pchan, is he trolling?

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He is incapable of not trolling. You're better off just not paying any attention to him or his mule sock puppet accounts.

Edit: And he plays with himself. And one friend. And that's it. Two people, 4 mules.

The biggest thing that confused me was PLD using HP gear.

well his argument with pld having a better body is semi incorrect af3+2 body does cap out @ 10% DT , BUT thats if a pld can get that much hate over all a static 8% will do you better with that extra tp bonus going alot farther even if it caps @ 13 tp or w/e a hit.

Thief have all arsenal, gear, Job abilities and strong WS. For be a great Deal damager.

Even having all this and post abbysea. Depends of the player mentality the way thief will be used.

Examples: People is lving monk for tank only, they dont have plans of parse his monk in einjerhar or dynamis. People only lv up whm for use that only in abbysea, with infinite mp and for low man with friends NMS, they dont have plans for take a main heal in dynamis or in einjerhar. The same problem is with thief, people just lv up that for tank weak NMS and TH.

If is a player with Thief career. The thief willl be a great deal damager.

In abbysea a skilled Thief, can keep up in damage with any competent DD Warrior included. (Talking about people know what is doing, swaping gear, having haste capped, having good atmas. Not talking about full pinky, or full perle gear DDS)

Outside of abbysea, in einjerhar, dynamis, limbus. a Skilled thief can Keep up but not outparse a equal skilled player using Two handed job.

Sadly but outside of abbysea a 4 hit build sam, a 5 hit build drk, war and drg are superior than DW jobs.

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Originally Posted by CrAZYVIC

Thief have all arsenal, gear, Job abilities and strong WS. For be a great Deal damager.

Even having all this and post abbysea. Depends of the player mentality the way thief will be used.

Examples: People is lving monk for tank only, they dont have plans of parse his monk in einjerhar or dynamis. People only lv up whm for use that only in abbysea, with infinite mp and for low man with friends NMS, they dont have plans for take a main heal in dynamis or in einjerhar. The same problem is with thief, people just lv up that for tank weak NMS and TH.

If is a player with Thief career. The thief willl be a great deal damager.

In abbysea a skilled Thief, can keep up in damage with any competent DD Warrior included. (Talking about people know what is doing, swaping gear, having haste capped, having good atmas. Not talking about full pinky, or full perle gear DDS)

Outside of abbysea, in einjerhar, dynamis, limbus. a Skilled thief can Keep up but not outparse a equal skilled player using Two handed job.

Sadly but outside of abbysea a 4 hit build sam, a 5 hit build drk, war and drg are superior than DW jobs.

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I bolded the only factual portion of your statement

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Originally Posted by Kajikuro

Ok ive been seeing this whole new way of mnk tanking that i don't fully understand and apparently some people swear by it. MNK/WAR tanking, i don't get it, when i tank on mnk i /nin for the shadows so i don't catch some of the tp moves and stuff like water V and the like. So i don't understand the reason that mnks are using /war to tank now, i can understand on shadow munchers like turul, though i have never fought turul, but other than that shouldnt /nin still be a must? I understand the defense boast as well from /war but i cant see how that gives enough to make it a viable tanking subjob were you could just as easier sub dnc and violent flourish dangerous attacks. to cut things short im not saying that /war doesn't make sense, im just saying that it doesn't make sense to me. So if anyone could tell me the reason for it and some strategies of how to use it i would appreciate it cuz it will defiantly save me some gil

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I'm sorry that your post went neglected and after awhile derailed into other subject which are of no concern. We're speaking and I'm on the same boat as you Kajikuro, I can get a bit confused about what make Mnk a good tank like Paladins are.

There's bias toward ninjas being the tank of choice and also leaning into low-maning partys because people don't want the drama a the wait of normal party set-up (which this MMO was originally intended for). If these subject that really don't help the OP escalates and becomes a troll-fest, just post your own thread.

My opinion agrees with /war being situational aswell as /nin. There's nothing that's better than other unless you count the rest of your party in support. I want to build up my Mnk for Guarding/Countering so I can tank too. I don't want to rely on /nin unless the situation ask for it (see Gokkus post for details). /Nin doesn't make you a better tank, your just prepared for what's coming because shadows are your friend in the situation. I couldn't care less if Ninja was compared over Paladin because it's not a tank. The proper gear and skills ordains you to hold hate, take dmg and stay alive. If you(the OP) can build up your mnk and learn and get the gear and skill you h2h and guard, no matter what sub you have on, you can be a great tank. Play the way you want but study it and take some of the advice from the experience people here.

Please respect the topic at hand and stop derailing the subject. I want to wish the OP much luck and hope you found your answer already. If the OP is satisfied and found his answer, you should be able to 'LOCK' this thread. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Kam

1. That first body is the best Mercy Stroke and Rudra's Storm body outside Abyssea, no SA or TA because I know you're not going to try and pretend THF stacks them often in 2011. Among, I'm sure, other uses.
2. Really? Please show me either a PDT or MDT body for Warrior or Paladin with higher than 8%, not forgetting that Retaliation tanking this should produce ridiculous amounts of TP and therefore be the best DD body also, despite the lack of any other melee stats.
3. I posted it mostly for SAM, I guess you can write that off as an irrelevant job if you like, I'll give you that one.
4. RDM is still the best Salvage healer, for example, while YOU may have capped Salvage gear that doesn't make you right.

I'll continue this argument after the patch when we find out which other pieces are from Voidwatch.

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You've got to admit, if that's the only decent gear we get tonoght from the update there will be many angry players lol. I'm holding my breath and hoping for the AF2+2 to not suck and whatever comes from WoE to be good [ and I know we do not get AF2+2 tomorrow]. But if you remember back a the lv 80 update, after 10mn of reading the DAT mining threads everyone realized the new stuff replaced 80% of the 75 gear, and they were not small side grates, most great boosts ( and all were Ab-vision gear that is largely irreleveant now).

Looks like the BG crowd is trying to spread wrong info on forums since yesterday btw. They refer to an obscur JP blog where the guy says getting 1/12 on armor plates per kill will suck and mentions it as a proof of HMP (heavy metal plates) coming from VoidWatch, while in reality the blog doesn't show any pic of HMP dropping (does however show a hi potion drop,a mantis eye and a fire crystal in the pool). POIDH ? lol.

It could come from there or not, but really, facepalm on the bullshit info.

Apparently that war/pld/etc body from voidwatch of fail, dat mined on the test server data, gives +1.4% TP[probably a multiple translation error]. lol.

I checked again the dat results and SE deserves a giant big five ; for monk there is the neck ATT+9 increases Kick damage seems interesting and definitely superior to rancor bare uncapped acc. If uncapped acc there are much better option anyway. We only need to know where heavy metal plates come from now.

I saw head and back items that I thought were good evasion piece until I realized that the WoE back item and head are better/equal.

totally underwhelming. Keep thinking real content and gear will come every month through new updates, but I think that is just the FF14 syndrome, wb tanaka.

I think they wanted to make alternative gear for some jobs like SCH/BLM/RDM for their cures but they slightly neglected the part where getting WHM to 75 is better and faster. The melee gear, at least for monk, is underwhelming. One might be usable in uncapped accuracy but really.

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Toci's HarnessRareExclusive
DEF:60 STR+13 DEX+13 Accuracy+10 Attack+10
"Double Attack"+3%
Sphere: Haste+2%
Set: "Triple Attack"+3%

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You are getting maybe 1% crit rate, 0.5% hit rate, losing 6 attack, 2 STR but gaining 3% DA, losing 5 MA. Obviously it has to be used outside of impetus. It's apparently with another body which has dex 12 haste 6%. On the head slot you gain 1% crit 3% hit rate and lose 7 STR, plus if you equip the set you are missing a few kickattacks (not much). The lack of STR on those piece evens with the crit% gain. 5 MA lost seems on par with 2% DA gained and the attack difference. Seems indeed like a small increase "over full AF3+2 outside impetus" as motenten explained in the other thread (I think). But then for uncapped acc it must not be compared to full AF3+2 ... bleh.

The most fail part I think is that it is AH able and that the profit makers will be synergists.

I haven't read everything in the thread, and I know the OP was a few months ago, but I figure I'll post anyways :-). Most people seem to have the jist of the concept down. Basically, get yourself a Verethranga and full AF3+2, get all the Abyssite of Merit, and Abyssite of umm fortune? (forgot name but they give +10 all stats to each one). If you have a whm, everything just becomes silly easy, even the NMs you may think couldn't possibly be easy, they will be. When your WS does 6-7k most of the time, and the aftermath has you hitting 800-900 a significant amount of the time, the mobs just die, so those extra hits from counterstance and double attack are worth the damage taken because the mob dies so much faster. Thanks for listening :-)

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Originally Posted by Gokku

You do know that perfect counter will remain up with shadows up why would cancel it?
you cancel the last shadow of ni as a mob attack and it will still take that shadow from ni but your ichi will be up this is assuming the mob doesn't double or triple attack in which case your perfect counter would still allow ichi to go off.

What if the mob decides to aga or do an aoe tp move and you still have 45 sec cool down on perfect counter timer?
see above , also with capped haste generally you can ride ichi until you need to caste ni making the cooldown on perfect irrelevant.

Why are you starting out the fight with Ni up? You do know that ichi overwrites ichi and Ni overwrites both.
because it doesnt matter both give 3 shadows and ill have the timers on both @ 0 anyways.

Save perfect counter for when you need to recast ichi and your timers are down for both.
its just as much of a waste to ONLY use perfect when both timers are down , eventually your going to have both timers down and perfect not up shit happens.

Meh I won't get into teaching you how to really tank as mnk/nin. care to post your gear sets? id love to see what your using. i keep my tp set , inside abyssea vs , outside abyssea vs , pdt , mdt , chakra , evasion sets on me at all times on monk. so id love to see what your carrying / using that makes you such a grand master monk.

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I haven't checked this forum in months and honestly forgot it about. I am referring to why you would cancel perfect counter, not your shadows ><

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Originally Posted by Cowardlybabooon

I haven't read everything in the thread, and I know the OP was a few months ago, but I figure I'll post anyways :-). Most people seem to have the jist of the concept down. Basically, get yourself a Verethranga and full AF3+2, get all the Abyssite of Merit, and Abyssite of umm fortune? (forgot name but they give +10 all stats to each one). If you have a whm, everything just becomes silly easy, even the NMs you may think couldn't possibly be easy, they will be. When your WS does 6-7k most of the time, and the aftermath has you hitting 800-900 a significant amount of the time, the mobs just die, so those extra hits from counterstance and double attack are worth the damage taken because the mob dies so much faster. Thanks for listening :-)

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He's back from the dead with an extra "O" in his name!

Do you, like, not know what a Fanatic's Drink is?

Well, you deleted your post anyways I guess.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Do you, like, not know what a Fanatic's Drink is?

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Not to argue but a fanatic's is not always available.

It should be up at least 80% of the time minimum. The other 0-20% isn't going to one-shot a Monk most of the time either.

Although I have learned from past posts that 99% of the time, Greatguardian is right. Listen to this guy. lol