[DEV1234]Lift the delay/haste cap

Glad everyone agreed with my first post :x lmao

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Just because "new content won't be in abyssea" doesn't mean that abyssea itself will no longer be of significance or importance. You say "abysssea is done" as if we suddenly won't be doing it anymore.

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I think the point is more that it's so easy to cap out on gear (even emps) that nobody will do much aside from XP in there soon, looking at the 12 month road map that is actually very bad cause there isn't much else coming of consequence.

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Originally Posted by Yugl

While new content requires more accuracy, food resolves most of these issues. Other than that, there aren't many situations where you're sacrificing less than 25% Haste options for accuracy. Furthermore, if these NMs are as difficult to melee as you're suggesting (I've only participated in new content as a mage, but the melee don't seem to have the accuracy issue you're suggesting arises; i.e. 80% or less), then I imagine they're receiving bard buffs, which will inevitably increase the utility of haste either through stacking delay reduction or covering massive accuracy deficits.

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Not everyone has a pocket COR or BRD for buffs. If you can't rely on a BRD or COR to compensate for any issues a melee would have I'd hope they'd rework their gear to compensate.

Also 80% isn't a fixed number it was just the accepted number in the past that needed to be attained before you should look into Haste from gear.

As to food you're right that does help but pizza isn't the solution for every situation, sometimes you want/need more ATK, STR, DEX, sTP, or ACC and need to gear to compensate.

I'll say it again "Gear is Situational" if you want to strive to be the best you look at multiple gear options for a given situation and don't just settle for 1 blanket gear set.

Gear is situational up until the point you're sacrificing haste for accuracy. At that point you need to bring a better party setup - one that continues to cap your haste and can provide an accuracy buff if Sushi or Pizza isn't providing it.

And Byrth's example is correct, using the current values for haste caps (individually) the game would be better off.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Not everyone has a pocket COR or BRD for buffs. If you can't rely on a BRD or COR to compensate for any issues a melee would have I'd hope they'd rework their gear to compensate.

Also 80% isn't a fixed number it was just the accepted number in the past that needed to be attained before you should look into Haste from gear.

As to food you're right that does help but pizza isn't the solution for every situation, sometimes you want/need more ATK, STR, DEX, sTP, or ACC and need to gear to compensate.

I'll say it again "Gear is Situational" if you want to strive to be the best you look at multiple gear options for a given situation and don't just settle for 1 blanket gear set.

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The argument is de facto. Given the melee I play (DRG, BLU, and more recently, MNK), I don't see any major ACC > Haste situations you wouldn't want to resolve via food. DEX deficit only matters for dDEX sets, which may become relevant in the future, but have become obsolete since the introduction of Abyssea and the steady drive away from Colibri (And only WAR were able to attain that luxury then because they could cap haste while making the necessary gear changes). I didn't imply that people have pocket BRDs; however, if the content is as difficult to melee as he is describing, BRD is an invaluable member, so you're damaging yourself by not bringing one.

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Originally Posted by Yugl

BRD is an invaluable member, so you're damaging yourself by not bringing one.

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I don't disagree the point is if BRD or COR isn't an option then gear is which is why blanket statements like "Haste > All" are flawed.

You mentioned BLU now I'm curious do you gear your BLU for melee inside Abyssea the same way for Voidwatch? I'm assuming you're doing Voidwatch as that is the only current content outside of Abyssea that matters at the moment.

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Originally Posted by CrystalWeapon

100% haste would indeed be infinite. The % is subtracted from your delay. If you take say 6 seconds to swing, at 80% haste you would take 1.2 seconds to swing. Which would be as stated earlier 5x your normal actions at 80% haste. At 90% you would take 0.6 seconds to swing. 10x your normal actions. The haste formula is one that approaches infinity the closer you get to 100.

If you took 0 seconds to swing it would be nonstop actions and the mob would die in an instant. If you imposed a restriction on how often an autoattack can initiate say 0.1 seconds is the lowest it could possibly go, then it's not truely 100%. For the 6 second swing example you would only have aprox. 98.3% haste, so it would never truely be 100%.

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If it wasn't capped somewhere what would happen is that 100% haste would cause a literal "divide by zero" situation. Whenever someone achieved 100% haste and attacked something the server software would lock up. I think what happened was that the whole issue went unnoticed until people started getting dangerously close to 100% haste and they went in with the intention of just capping it at 99% or something. But once they took a good look at it they said "holy %#&@ that's overpowered" and implemented an 80% cap.

Why not eliminate all jobs, job abilities, and everything else and give players a big sword that does 999dmg and delay 1? That's gonna be the end results of all these melee gripers wanting more damage and more haste.

Yes, if fun to kill things fast and easy, but you reach a point where you HAVE to look at other avenues of enjoyment. I hadn't even realize that the haste cap was 80%...aiy crumubab.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

Why not eliminate all jobs, job abilities, and everything else and give players a big sword that does 999dmg and delay 1? That's gonna be the end results of all these melee gripers wanting more damage and more haste.

Yes, if fun to kill things fast and easy, but you reach a point where you HAVE to look at other avenues of enjoyment. I hadn't even realize that the haste cap was 80%...aiy crumubab.

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Most melees know that having the 80% cap is the best we can get, just hope that they don't do nerf it.
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

I don't disagree the point is if BRD or COR isn't an option then gear is which is why blanket statements like "Haste > All" are flawed.

You mentioned BLU now I'm curious do you gear your BLU for melee inside Abyssea the same way for Voidwatch? I'm assuming you're doing Voidwatch as that is the only current content outside of Abyssea that matters at the moment.

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I always understood "Haste > All" as a exaggerating the importance of haste. I don't have stats on VW monsters and, as mentioned earlier, I've only participated as a mage (Specifically, SCH). Hence, I haven't built my set for VW on BLU, but I do have macros ready for when I do. Previous statements come from witnessing other melees participating in VW.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

If it wasn't capped somewhere what would happen is that 100% haste would cause a literal "divide by zero" situation. Whenever someone achieved 100% haste and attacked something the server software would lock up. I think what happened was that the whole issue went unnoticed until people started getting dangerously close to 100% haste and they went in with the intention of just capping it at 99% or something. But once they took a good look at it they said "holy %#&@ that's overpowered" and implemented an 80% cap.

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It depends on the number of attacks that you would need to process before the mob died, how many individuals are doing it at once, and how many people are nearby to see the damage. It would be the sheer number of attacks in quick succession that would have to be broadcast all at once to all individuals within range that would cause anything from massive lag to a complete network failure.

Even if the cap was 100%, haste would never truely be 100%. Like an infinite loop with no delays, it would always be limited by the processor that's computing the data. It's not as bad as a divide by zero error, but it's still pretty damn bad because of the fact that all the data has to be sent out exponentially to all individuals within range. I'd compare it to running several GOTO 10 programs on one server at the same time that all broadcast data across a network.

Note: I'm not arguing with you. I just felt like putting in my two cents because I'm a nerdy code monkey. Tech and programming talk makes me geek out.

The damage done is instantaneous, that is why when you have 8 swings that will kill the mob on the 8th hit, the mob doesn't fall to the floor until the 8th hit, but the HP bar goes down to 0 before the first swing happened. Having 100% Haste means that you have 0 delay, which makes all melee hits go back to back instantly, making the HP bar go from 100 to 0 regardless of accuracy (because a missed hit still has 0 delay, so you can have floored accuracy and still instant kill any mob). Even with 99% haste and 5% accuracy, the mob will die in less than 5 seconds.

Totally irrelevant, but the point was that you'd be necessarily limited by processor speed because the system is discreet. Think of it like this:
1) Every cycle, the program checks to see if you're going to attack this cycle based on your delay and the last time you had an attack round. Like, imagine it cycles once per 1 delay.
Imagine you have an effective delay of 91 and have just swung. Your counter starts at 0, and every cycle it will increment by 1 and be checked with "Is the counter greater than or equal to 91?" No? Continue. So for 90 cycles it will come back as "no," but the 91st cycle will come back as "Yes," you'll attack, and it will reset the process.
2) If your delay is 0, every cycle it will come back "Yes, his counter is greater than 0." So you attack.

CrystalWeapon's point is that this isn't truly dividing by 0, and you don't have an infinite attack rate, because you're limited by how quickly the processor "cycles." Not incredibly relevant (as it's close enough to an infinite attack rate), but we don't have to worry about dividing by 0.

I'm just wondering what is the point in debating on this anyway?

SE won't raise the haste cap past 80, we should all hope that they don't lower it to 75.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I'm just wondering what is the point in debating on this anyway?

SE won't raise the haste cap past 80, we should all hope that they don't lower it to 75.

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Well, even if they uncapped total delay reduction, we'd never hit 100% anyways so really it's a matter of theory either way. Haste itself will never break 93.3% (25% Gear, 25% JA, 43.3% Magic individual caps), and its relationship with dual wield/martial arts/etc is multiplicative so you're not going to end up hitting 0 delay.

80% is just a cap that almost any job can hit, whereas 93.3% is only attainable by DRK.

Wouldn't the cap be 83.3% if they do uncap it?

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Wouldn't the cap be 83.3% if they do uncap it?

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Desperate blows, Drk.

I meant for every other job but DRK.

43.3% Haste from Spells
25% Haste from Gear
10% Haste from Hasso (maybe throw in a DNC too?).

Since DRK can easily cap haste from JA, we will throw that out of there.

Edit: I don't know why, but I keep forgetting Hasso for some reason.

Well technically 100% haste isn't possible since your attack speed would be undefined, but yes, as haste approaches 100% your attack speed approaches infinity.

You should look at this post, Korpg. I didn't format it very nicely, but all the information is there.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I meant for every other job but DRK.

43.3% Haste from Spells
25% Haste from Gear
10% Haste from Hasso (maybe throw in a DNC too?).

Since DRK can easily cap haste from JA, we will throw that out of there.

Edit: I don't know why, but I keep forgetting Hasso for some reason.

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What Byrth said, and you're leaving out Haste Samba which is JA Haste. Can bring 2H jobs up to 88.3%.