[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] NIN

Going off that 25% Proc. thingy, what if while Shurikens are equipped (in ammo) that the have a chance to be thrown instantly in a way smiler to the way a Monk uses Kick Attacks? Maybe even add a new job trate to 50+ NIN?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Ninja feedback!

Go ninja, go ninja, go! <3




Shurikens are not weak weapons, but they are not used very much because they are expensive, and it is difficult to obtain a shuriken that fits your level. We are working towards addressing these issues.

Regarding adjustments to ninja itself, we are planning on focusing on merit point categories initially. Concurrently, we would like to work on adding high level shuriken and increasing accessibility. We have received requests for adding additional effects and enfeebling effects to shuriken, but it would be very inconvenient to have to carry various types of shuriken in addition to ninja tools, so we plan to continue to separately utilize ninjutsu for enfeebling effects and shuriken for damage.



In exchange for the effects wearing off after a predetermined time, we were able to craft effects that are very powerful. It is possible for the ability to be changed so that the effects are sustained for a long period. In this case, the effects will not wear off, and a weaker version of the effects could be maintained. However, the strong effects that exist currently would have to be weakened, so we don’t think this is desirable.



For a job that has the versatility of not only dealing damage but also the ability to tank quite efficiently, we don’t have any plans of adding an ability that controls hate.



The power of elemental ninjutsu can be increased through ninjutsu skill, skill bonuses, abilities such as Innin and Futae, and gear with magic attack bonus. We believe that elemental ninjutsu is sufficiently effective when used in conjunction with the above. However, we do think there is an issue with accuracy, so we are looking into a solution.



Ninjutsu doesn’t have the downside of being detected by magic aggressive enemies when casting, so it’s much easier to recast ninjutsu than magic spells. Thus, the duration of ninjutsu is shorter than magic spells.



We have no plans of adding recovery type spells for ninjas. We would like players to choose a job with recovery spells as their support job or have their party members cover them.



If we are to add upgrades to ninjutsu, we would like them to be learned as merit points similar to red mage, so we will look into this during our adjustment of merit points.



We have decided that ninjas will be weak against AoE spells in exchange for having strong defense against single attacks, with Utsusemi being the focal point.


We are planning on implementing this.

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Well as someone who plays nin and has been playing nin for years I don't think it's as versatile as you guys keep claiming it to be in today's content. As a tank it's alright because of shadows yes, but literally everything wipes shadows with either spells, multi hit WS's or some mobs just wipe multiple shadows on basic attacks. Our evasion means almost nothing now and our damage is waaaay too lackluster.

I dont see a huge deal with ninjutsu, though i'd like a wider variety of spells, not saying they need Ni/San tier's but just more useful ones because atm some are hardly even worth the cast time and most of ours get overwritten by RDMs. Maybe this is where you guys meant for Nin to be in the game atm and I do realize it had its time to shine in the past; however I feel its just one of the more useless jobs now. RUN/NIN does everything nin can do just tons better, and I realize that i'm not the best geared nin nor the best nin player around but I know i'm pretty good at nin and I really think you guys need to take a good look at it and a few other jobs just to keep them from falling off and being completely useless.

And I am completely for having shuriken that have debuffs on them! Sorta makes sense you know...ninja as an assassin...throwing poison covered knives etc. I think it would be really interesting, and you also said it would be inconvenient to carry so many different types of shuriken? Uh..no? everyone's already got soo many storage items, not to try to speak for anyone else but even after I gear up nin with WS sets tp eva etc I still have plenty of space. Most ninja's carry universal tools to save inventory space and I dont think any of us would complain about losing ~4 slots for shuriken that were worth our time having and actually were useful

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Originally Posted by Camate

Ninja feedback!

Go ninja, go ninja, go! <3




Shurikens are not weak weapons, but they are not used very much because they are expensive, and it is difficult to obtain a shuriken that fits your level. We are working towards addressing these issues.

Regarding adjustments to ninja itself, we are planning on focusing on merit point categories initially. Concurrently, we would like to work on adding high level shuriken and increasing accessibility. We have received requests for adding additional effects and enfeebling effects to shuriken, but it would be very inconvenient to have to carry various types of shuriken in addition to ninja tools, so we plan to continue to separately utilize ninjutsu for enfeebling effects and shuriken for damage.



In exchange for the effects wearing off after a predetermined time, we were able to craft effects that are very powerful. It is possible for the ability to be changed so that the effects are sustained for a long period. In this case, the effects will not wear off, and a weaker version of the effects could be maintained. However, the strong effects that exist currently would have to be weakened, so we don’t think this is desirable.



For a job that has the versatility of not only dealing damage but also the ability to tank quite efficiently, we don’t have any plans of adding an ability that controls hate.



The power of elemental ninjutsu can be increased through ninjutsu skill, skill bonuses, abilities such as Innin and Futae, and gear with magic attack bonus. We believe that elemental ninjutsu is sufficiently effective when used in conjunction with the above. However, we do think there is an issue with accuracy, so we are looking into a solution.



Ninjutsu doesn’t have the downside of being detected by magic aggressive enemies when casting, so it’s much easier to recast ninjutsu than magic spells. Thus, the duration of ninjutsu is shorter than magic spells.



We have no plans of adding recovery type spells for ninjas. We would like players to choose a job with recovery spells as their support job or have their party members cover them.



If we are to add upgrades to ninjutsu, we would like them to be learned as merit points similar to red mage, so we will look into this during our adjustment of merit points.



We have decided that ninjas will be weak against AoE spells in exchange for having strong defense against single attacks, with Utsusemi being the focal point.


We are planning on implementing this.

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Shurikens are far from weak weapons. As someone whom used them exclusively at lower lvls; there were extremely strong. berserk + manji shurikens in lvl 50+ colibri parties was fun^^ I would also sange birds in abyssea with Fumas. However, I cannot justify using shurikens atm; currently, they are weak compared to the lvl119 katanas. Also, those Igas are crazy hard to craft.

Magic damage can get pretty high from nin spells though; i agree.

I cannot believe more nins were not using these at lower lvls, the lower ones are pretty cheap and they were a great hate holding tool from lvl 18-60; pre jin. I would recommend these to any low lvl nin; they do get rare post manji; unless you can craft them. I had a crafter on bismarck make these for me; until I lvled smithing. Fun times with throwing^^

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Originally Posted by Camate

Ninja feedback!

Go ninja, go ninja, go! <3




Shurikens are not weak weapons, but they are not used very much because they are expensive, and it is difficult to obtain a shuriken that fits your level. We are working towards addressing these issues.

Regarding adjustments to ninja itself, we are planning on focusing on merit point categories initially. Concurrently, we would like to work on adding high level shuriken and increasing accessibility. We have received requests for adding additional effects and enfeebling effects to shuriken, but it would be very inconvenient to have to carry various types of shuriken in addition to ninja tools, so we plan to continue to separately utilize ninjutsu for enfeebling effects and shuriken for damage.



In exchange for the effects wearing off after a predetermined time, we were able to craft effects that are very powerful. It is possible for the ability to be changed so that the effects are sustained for a long period. In this case, the effects will not wear off, and a weaker version of the effects could be maintained. However, the strong effects that exist currently would have to be weakened, so we don’t think this is desirable.



For a job that has the versatility of not only dealing damage but also the ability to tank quite efficiently, we don’t have any plans of adding an ability that controls hate.



The power of elemental ninjutsu can be increased through ninjutsu skill, skill bonuses, abilities such as Innin and Futae, and gear with magic attack bonus. We believe that elemental ninjutsu is sufficiently effective when used in conjunction with the above. However, we do think there is an issue with accuracy, so we are looking into a solution.



Ninjutsu doesn’t have the downside of being detected by magic aggressive enemies when casting, so it’s much easier to recast ninjutsu than magic spells. Thus, the duration of ninjutsu is shorter than magic spells.



We have no plans of adding recovery type spells for ninjas. We would like players to choose a job with recovery spells as their support job or have their party members cover them.



If we are to add upgrades to ninjutsu, we would like them to be learned as merit points similar to red mage, so we will look into this during our adjustment of merit points.



We have decided that ninjas will be weak against AoE spells in exchange for having strong defense against single attacks, with Utsusemi being the focal point.


We are planning on implementing this.

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Just my idea for improving shuriken for level 99+:
(probably been suggested before.)
Maybe a job point or merit job ability (that would work similar to the rune enchantment job ability for RUN) that would add certain effects to the ammo?
(Example:
Enchantment #1: Silence effect
Enchantment #2: Stun effect
Enchantment #3: Attack down effect
Enchantment #4: Evasion down effect
Enchantment #5: Accuracy down effect)

There are probably many more effects that would be better, but I can't think of anything that wouldn't be thought of as 'game-breaking'.

Greetings, everyone.

Bumping this thread to share a bit about future ninja adjustments.

Moving forward we would like to make adjustments to ninja that improve on their ability to switch between Yonin and Innin allowing them to function as a tank or as a damage dealer when necessary.

In the June version update we added a ninjutsu that facilitates enmity generation and another ninjutsu that suppresses enmity generation.

Though it will be after the August version update, we are planning to make adjustments to their damage dealing capabilities. We’ll be introducing high item level throwing equipment and making it so throwing can be put to good use, and additionally we will be changing the effect of Sange.

Also, we will be adding new katanas as rewards for wildskeeper reives in the July version update.

Once there are more details, I’ll be sure to share!

Woot, how did you know I was going to level NIN-NIN to 99 around that time? =P

Nice^^

Throwing is (Or was....) too good to be wasted.

WKR katanas with +crit could equate to some insane throwing damage if the shurikens are lvl119-ish.

Edit: Wonder how they will make throwing serviceable vs katanas? Especially with the OAT augments. Either way, nin is gonna be insane^^

While your throwing out good news left and right will you also change our One hours?

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Originally Posted by Zerowin

While your throwing out good news left and right will you also change our One hours?

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I see what you did there.

As it pertains to the "High level throwing equipment," I assume that nins will not be the only job receiving gear which helps them; perhaps they will introduce nin and other emp armor?

This sounds like great news, and a step in the right direction.

It would also be very nice if the development team would consider lowering the penalty on TP return from equipping large amounts of dual wield. It doesn't need to be changed much, but a subtle adjustment would go a long ways in balancing NIN against other damage dealers.

The changes brought forth in the June update are very noticeable for single one-handed weapons, and even 2-handed weapons in some cases. Sadly, NIN gains TP about the same as before. (1-2% difference)

Looking forward to the WKR / Delve Katanas and Throwing stars!

Thanks!

If nin receives two OAT Katanas, that will be insane on its' own, with DW penalty and all :)

Oh better question will we finally get Ni version of ninjustu?
Oh and why are we just now getting these weapons?

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Originally Posted by WoW

If nin receives two OAT Katanas, that will be insane on its' own, with DW penalty and all :)

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Except that with only 188 skill instead of 242 like you get on 119 weapons, you're never going to hit anything, regardless of how many times you swing. I don't quite understand how 54 skill over 4 levels is possibly balanced.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Except that with only 188 skill instead of 242 like you get on 119 weapons, you're never going to hit anything, regardless of how many times you swing. I don't quite understand how 54 skill over 4 levels is possibly balanced.

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Did not experience acc issues on normal with the bst axes, don't know about difficult; 119 crap, you should be fine. That is just me, not gonna speak for anyone else; perhaps I should say "for me, those katanas will be insane."

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Except that with only 188 skill instead of 242 like you get on 119 weapons, you're never going to hit anything, regardless of how many times you swing. I don't quite understand how 54 skill over 4 levels is possibly balanced.

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Also, i was referring to the tp penalty XD; other jobs have the OAT 115 weapons as well. Nin is not a "meh" bad job; You even mentioned how Nin can tank well in AAs. Just use a 119 weapon if you run into acc issues "Shrugs"

Greetings,

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Originally Posted by Orestes

It would also be very nice if the development team would consider lowering the penalty on TP return from equipping large amounts of dual wield. It doesn't need to be changed much, but a subtle adjustment would go a long ways in balancing NIN against other damage dealers.

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Currently the system has been set to cap attack delay so it cannot go lower than 75 regardless of how much haste and dual wield you have. This was a necessary limitation so that animations could keep up with the shortened attack delay. However, we understand that this limitation has created a disadvantage to TP gained when stacking dual wield, and we would like to improve this as we move forward.

We’ll be looking into adjustments to the dual wield feature after the September version update. As this is something that is directly tied to battle balance, it will require a bit of time to look into.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,



Currently the system has been set to cap attack delay so it cannot go lower than 75 regardless of how much haste and dual wield you have. This was a necessary limitation so that animations could keep up with the shortened attack delay. However, we understand that this limitation has created a disadvantage to TP gained when stacking dual wield, and we would like to improve this as we move forward.

We’ll be looking into adjustments to the dual wield feature after the September version update. As this is something that is directly tied to battle balance, it will require a bit of time to look into.

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You guys are great! Thanks for looking into this.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,



Currently the system has been set to cap attack delay so it cannot go lower than 75 regardless of how much haste and dual wield you have. This was a necessary limitation so that animations could keep up with the shortened attack delay. However, we understand that this limitation has created a disadvantage to TP gained when stacking dual wield, and we would like to improve this as we move forward.

We’ll be looking into adjustments to the dual wield feature after the September version update. As this is something that is directly tied to battle balance, it will require a bit of time to look into.

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Obviously the community might be wrong, but isn't the cap 80%? Taken from bluegartr wiki

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Attack_speed

"Damage per second goes to infinity as Delay goes to 0, so Square has placed several caps on the Haste categories.

Equipment haste has its own cap of 25% (256/1024).
Magic haste caps at 43.75% (448/1024).
Job abilities haste is the third and final category, and it also caps at 25% (256/1024).

In addition to this, there is a general 80% Delay reduction cap that was added to the game as delay-reducing options became more readily available. Before this, it was possible to attain Haste values up to 93.75%, as can be seen in the UNCTGTG's video below. All types of Delay Reduction fall under this cap, from Sword Strap to Martial Arts to Dual Wield. In order to calculate your current delay reduction (and how close you are to the cap), you need to determine your % delay by multiplying all your Delay reductions together. "

I dont think he meant cannot go lower than 75 % delay reduction. i think 75 is the actual delay number. The shortest amount of time possible between strikes before animation looks too wanky. Like how Sandung has a delay of 200.

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

Obviously the community might be wrong, but isn't the cap 80%?

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Yes, 80% is the cap. Put in another way, regardless of how much haste and dual wield you stack, the system is set so you cannot exceed 20% of the original attack delay. The value used in my previous post was the actual delay value.

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Originally Posted by Trumpy

I dont think he meant cannot go lower than 75 % delay reduction. i think 75 is the actual delay number. The shortest amount of time possible between strikes before animation looks too wanky. Like how Sandung has a delay of 200.

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This does mean that, under certain circumstances, the maximum delay reduction is less than 80%. (You'd need weapons with combined delay of less than 375 for this to happen.)

Greetings,

Previously I mentioned that we will be adding new throwing weapons and changing the way Sange functions, but to start out the team is currently looking into changing the application of shurikens for the September version update and plans to follow-up on this with the Sange changes.

Also, in the August version update we will be adding the “Max HP Boost” trait to a couple of jobs which includes ninja. At level 99 ninja will have the fifth tier of this trait, which will make them stronger than before.

How does having more hp make a job stronger?

I don't think it will just be the HP boost we will be getting, I'm sure we will get more.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

How does having more hp make a job stronger?

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The entire reason MNK is useful but other melees aren't is that they have enough HP to actually absorb enemy attacks without dying. If NIN had as many (or more, considering BLM's conserve mp I vs GEO's conserve mp VII) HP bonuses as MNK, they'd be a lot more useful as DD's. Especially since other DD's have to lose /WAR to get shadows from /NIN, but a NIN can still sub WAR. Damned near every fight now has "Keep shadows up, or be one shotted by AoE's" as the basic rule now, anyway.

What type of AOE's are we talking here magic based?

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Originally Posted by Zerowin

What type of AOE's are we talking here magic based?

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Most of the TP moves in the AA fights.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Most of the TP moves in the AA fights.

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And Ouryu, both dukes, the shadow lord, the sagelord, and you have to block ws's from tenzen and the shikarees with shadows, because even a PLD with ochain won't always survive a 3 step skillchain above Normal difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Most of the TP moves in the AA fights.

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Those are physical, thus why many of them can be absorbed with shadows.

An extra 250 HP on NIN is gonna be sweet, also makes /NIN a bit better.

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Originally Posted by Louispv

The entire reason MNK is useful but other melees aren't is that they have enough HP to actually absorb enemy attacks without dying. If NIN had as many (or more, considering BLM's conserve mp I vs GEO's conserve mp VII) HP bonuses as MNK, they'd be a lot more useful as DD's. Especially since other DD's have to lose /WAR to get shadows from /NIN, but a NIN can still sub WAR. Damned near every fight now has "Keep shadows up, or be one shotted by AoE's" as the basic rule now, anyway.

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In that case, paladin is the best DD evar!

No seriously though, Monks pump out a crap load of damage AND don't get one shotted. The first part is probably the most important in most cases though.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

In that case, paladin is the best DD evar!

No seriously though, Monks pump out a crap load of damage AND don't get one shotted. The first part is probably the most important in most cases though.

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PLD's dmg is crap, NIN's dmg is a lot closer to a real DD. Also I'm pretty sure MNK is no longer the top DPS after last update, they just have higher HP.

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Originally Posted by Tiktaks

Those are physical, thus why many of them can be absorbed with shadows.

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I'm not sure why you felt the need to clarify that. I thought it was obvious?

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I'm not sure why you felt the need to clarify that. I thought it was obvious?

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You responded that to someone saying "What type of AOE's are we talking here magic based?" Seemed reason enough to clarify. :P

Nin DD still not quite high enough to just up and take them along to fill in for a top tier run, but well geared Nin are pretty useful for melee strats on most BCs with their mix of just nice enough DD and survivability. Capped haste Migawari is really nice for things like AA EV, Arch Duke Kam, etc. And for when you get screwed by the mob doing it back-to-back, you can use Mijin to shed weakness.

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Originally Posted by Bagel

No one is trolling. Nin is not prohibitively expensive, outside of perhaps new players who still need to obtain utsusemi:ni. For anyone who has a lvl90 job however, getting gil to pay for ninja tools should prove to be no challenge.

Edit: also, people keep using that word... I do not think it means what they think it means.

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I thought Inafking had been banned. Bagel, I should have warned you last week, Inafking uses the word "troll" to describe anyone who disagrees with him. Best leave the guy alone.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

[...] Bagel, I should have warned you last week [...]

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You may need to go back a bit further than last week, considering the age of that particular post. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Malithar

You responded that to someone saying "What type of AOE's are we talking here magic based?" Seemed reason enough to clarify. :P

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Well, I could have just responded with the word "No", but I needed 10 characters ^^

I figured by giving an example of when shadows are required that he could go and look them up himself. Shadows have never absorbed magical AOEs so it really didn't seem like it needed explaining further.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Shadows have never absorbed magical AOEs so it really didn't seem like it needed explaining further.

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Thats not quite true though. They don't absorb -ga, -ja, and -ra, those wipe them and still do damage to the character. Admittedly, most magical TP moves either go through shadows or wipe them, similar to the spells, but there's a fair number that Utsu still works against. Case in point, Eald'narche in Celestial Nexus. He likes to spam his Vortex and Stellar Burst quite a bit during his second phase, but as long as he doesn't cast a -ga prior to them, 2-3 shadows will absorb it.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

In that case, paladin is the best DD evar!

No seriously though, Monks pump out a crap load of damage AND don't get one shotted. The first part is probably the most important in most cases though.

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MNK never really did the most damage (Except for the first few weeks of delve, where oats were easy to get, but no one had any other 119 weapons because they came from harder bosses.) they just didn't die nearly so easily. Every fight was "Keep mantra up full time so nothing kills you" or bust.

And especially after the skillchain update, every 2 handed job can outdo MNK with a good enough store TP set. They however, will die horribly and never get to use it. Damage barely matters anyway. Some people cleared Very Difficult fights with just PLD and some PUP's as DD's. (Because they can dump all their hate onto a puppet outside AoE range every minute and send it away, thus never pulling hate.) And every delve boss can be killed by BRD/1 DD/WHM. The enemies don't have that much HP or that much defense. Surviving the fight's the hard part.