[dev100x] Relic & Mythic Weapon Adjustments

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Originally Posted by Rambus

Be nice if you answered my question, what new gear came out that replaced old?, before abyssea.

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Every expansion had it, there are too many count. In every expansion what people were using was replaced by what was new. If not, you'd still be wearing your full RSE all the time.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Every expansion had it, there are too many count. In every expansion what people were using was replaced by what was new. If not, you'd still be wearing your full RSE all the time.

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No, nothing ever got replaced, there was what i call bridges of have and have nots, like v-fork for non relic users that replaced AH alts

what did THF and such tp in before homan?

How meny thf at 75 use level 50 body? and later dnc?

people use PW staff over HQ staff? people use ZNM T4 staff over HQ staffs?

I can't think of anything that replaced sky gear.

oh wait... when your magic caped I guess you get faster tp in Byakko's Haidate over emp +2. yeah sure... progress....

you can't name any, try naming a few so i can counter it

how meny salavge amor was real improvement? I count morr body, morr pants, morr feet ( RDM)
full mori set for magic casting ( blu) skadi hands for ws ( RNG), skadi pants for tp ( in specific STP setups, RNG) usu feet ( SAM ) full usu ( pup I guess)

The inherent problem here is the intentional ignoring of valid arguments. Up until ~3 years ago, getting anywhere appreciable in FF required a significant amount of effort. The source for that goes even further. Bear in mind, we now get 4x (EP--)-(DC++) exp to the original design. Things are easier, and there is no respect for hard work anymore. My arguments are irrelevant to anything except time investment. Rambus wants the game to use the same tried-and-true formula that has existed since... forever. Abyssea destroyed FF as many players knew it. The first expansion (predating Empyreans), allowed any person to hit the new 80 cap in a matter of hours. The second was post Empyrean, and added new JSE that pretty much thrashed all gear beforehand. We want relics to be better because they ARE better, not because some misguided concept of hatred of the new or "its better because it takes longer". 99% of people who pull excessively high numbers do so in Abyssea-zones. If Abyssea wasn't the new core of gameplay, then I would be ok with an easy to get weapon that was at its best there. But, unfortunately, Abyssea is now where everything is at. There is a huge disadvantage to being able to kill 20+ mobs with 1 WS over not being able to kill even 1 unless it was near dead (in terms of AoE only and exp giving monsters only). Relic and Mythic are superior because Empyrean is a misused system and was meant to be the same difficulty. By overstepping how easy Abyssea is and adding in how easy it is to acquire the drops, Empyreans are now jokes with far too much power. They only inspire awe in newish players, and are to me a major nuisance when compared with everything that predates them.

Edit: Proof of concept; There are no other WS only parties except Fell Cleave, an Emp Weapon Skill. There never was UNTIL Emp Weapons came out, just like no SMN burns or manaburns (outside merit) until Level Sync. The difference between them is that Fell Cleave is supposed to be an achievement, well-earned. It isn't, whereas Level Sync is universal (which is where Emp is heading).

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Originally Posted by InfamousDS

We want relics to be better because they ARE better

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But they're not. And they shouldn't be. They WERE good, people just need to move on to bigger and better things.
I bet if empyrean upgrade items were sellable/tradable, none of the desperatly holding onto the past threads would exist.

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Originally Posted by InfamousDS

The inherent problem here is the intentional ignoring of valid arguments. Up until ~3 years ago, getting anywhere appreciable in FF required a significant amount of effort. The source for that goes even further. Bear in mind, we now get 4x (EP--)-(DC++) exp to the original design. Things are easier, and there is no respect for hard work anymore. My arguments are irrelevant to anything except time investment. Rambus wants the game to use the same tried-and-true formula that has existed since... forever. Abyssea destroyed FF as many players knew it. The first expansion (predating Empyreans), allowed any person to hit the new 80 cap in a matter of hours. The second was post Empyrean, and added new JSE that pretty much thrashed all gear beforehand. We want relics to be better because they ARE better, not because some misguided concept of hatred of the new or "its better because it takes longer". 99% of people who pull excessively high numbers do so in Abyssea-zones. If Abyssea wasn't the new core of gameplay, then I would be ok with an easy to get weapon that was at its best there. But, unfortunately, Abyssea is now where everything is at. There is a huge disadvantage to being able to kill 20+ mobs with 1 WS over not being able to kill even 1 unless it was near dead (in terms of AoE only and exp giving monsters only). Relic and Mythic are superior because Empyrean is a misused system and was meant to be the same difficulty. By overstepping how easy Abyssea is and adding in how easy it is to acquire the drops, Empyreans are now jokes with far too much power. They only inspire awe in newish players, and are to me a major nuisance when compared with everything that predates them.

Edit: Proof of concept; There are no other WS only parties except Fell Cleave, an Emp Weapon Skill. There never was UNTIL Emp Weapons came out, just like no SMN burns or manaburns (outside merit) until Level Sync. The difference between them is that Fell Cleave is supposed to be an achievement, well-earned. It isn't, whereas Level Sync is universal (which is where Emp is heading).

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Just for clarity I have no problem with bridging have and have nots. I do not mind a weapon for have nots that can get close to me or do better with better mixes of gear then me. I am talking about the weapon itself in saying this. Mythics and relics should have the capacity to outperform emps. This should be on all jobs, not this some relics outdo emps in abyssea, and some emps destroy relics in abyssea. Leaving mythics in an usless limbo unless you mean SMN staff or WHM club

Someone can correct me if my view is wrong but to me it seems people want relic weapons to be left in the dust because people think the users are stuck up, rmt, whatever else. I do not think it is right to stereotype in such a faction and i think people are using "everything new should be better" argument as a buffer from their real insecurity. I am trying to find the truth and trying to figure out what could make everyone happy. I really do not understand when people say “no emp should be best that is that” when I say relic are hard to do they should be top due to their history and I do not mind you getting close to a relic.

Fell Cleave is a 300 skill ws. That last part is confusing me. It is an Impaction, scission, detonation, does not have a level 2 or level 3 property.

Still waiting for an asnwer to my question Tsukino_Kaji

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Originally Posted by Rambus

Fell Cleave is a 300 skill ws. That last part is confusing me

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That is an error on my part. I'm only intimately familiar with Dagger Magians, I know the paths for perp- and that's it for my other weapon. I just see so many people using Emp and Fell Cleave together (I know what it looks like) without actually having checked them to see the WS on it.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

No, but there is a reason SE made relics such high D in trials no? don't it seem that was an attempt to work around the things you just listed and trying to make them better then emps?

Like i said before the way SE has some stats on gear it seems random stats are thown on them and hope it works, that never gets tested so we tell them why it does not work as it should.

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maybe, maybe not, but at this point, it's all speculation.

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Originally Posted by InfamousDS

I don't pay to be spoonfed equipment. There are more than enough free MMOs that can do that for me. Relics take MINIMUM 1month, 1week, and 1day if you completely exclude gil acquisition. That's 5x the amount of time for an Emp. There is a clear difference. Including Gil adds anywhere from 1 day (RMT) to a few Months (if you have a reliable supply) to a few years (if you spend time actually playing and not grinding gil). I'm siding with relic because relic requires being a real player, not a gear-whore or an abyssea-spammer.

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The only reason it even takes that long is because of the time you have to wait between dynamis runs, that's not time spent doing work.

If you did an emp, and only put in the same number of hours as you did on a dynamis weapon, it'd take longer if you're excluding the gil.

For example, 2 nights a week dyna, 4 hr runs. Do 4 hrs and 2 nights a week upgrading an emp. The only diff is that you can do an emp whenever you want and for dyna you have to wait (which won't even be the case as of next update)

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Originally Posted by Rambus

Still waiting for an asnwer to my question Tsukino_Kaji

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Wait for an answer and not accepting the answer you were given are two differnet things.

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Originally Posted by InfamousDS

That is an error on my part. I'm only intimately familiar with Dagger Magians, I know the paths for perp- and that's it for my other weapon. I just see so many people using Emp and Fell Cleave together (I know what it looks like) without actually having checked them to see the WS on it.

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DRK and WAR can use Fell Cleave, the emp ws for GA is called Ukko's fury.

Fell Cleave is for AoE farming in abyssea but.. blu does it best XD

Cream_Soda relics are a MIN 10 days, and thats assuming you have all the money on the first day.

1>2: JP midnight
2>3: 1 week from trade
3>4: 82 hrs
4>5 : no wait

and you are assuming things, you do not know if that update is going to allow you to make relics faster, it might we do not know, like you said speculation.

relics and mythics take more work and time then emps, should be no argue to that.

Tsukino_Kaji , answer my question to show your not making a false statment:

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Every expansion had it, there are too many count. In every expansion what people were using was replaced by what was new. If not, you'd still be wearing your full RSE all the time.

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I disagree with that, i told you why, ball is in your court.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

how meny salavge amor was real improvement? I count morr body, morr pants, morr feet ( RDM)
full mori set for magic casting ( blu) skadi hands for ws ( RNG), skadi pants for tp ( in specific STP setups, RNG) usu feet ( SAM ) full usu ( pup I guess)

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Ares legs for ws. Then those got beat out by the later released hachiryu haidate.

Usu was definitely an upgrade for mnk.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

maybe, maybe not, but at this point, it's all speculation.


The only reason it even takes that long is because of the time you have to wait between dynamis runs, that's not time spent doing work.

If you did an emp, and only put in the same number of hours as you did on a dynamis weapon, it'd take longer if you're excluding the gil.

For example, 2 nights a week dyna, 4 hr runs. Do 4 hrs and 2 nights a week upgrading an emp. The only diff is that you can do an emp whenever you want and for dyna you have to wait (which won't even be the case as of next update)

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I didn't mean "exclude" as in farm. I meant exclude as in "oh look, I have a few million gil in currency just sitting here, as well as the drops from the NM". Those are the ACTUAL RL waits you are required by SE to follow before you can fight the final Weapon NM. I was being exceptionally generous and giving you all the items you would need.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

I bet if empyrean upgrade items were sellable/tradable, none of the desperatly holding onto the past threads would exist.

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Many people including myself would have 5-10 Emps if the items were sellable.
Relics do take more then some mindless killing...I went 1/35 for my Yoichi test sitting on full currency for 10 months before giving up. (got test doing Apoc 90 trial 18 months later) I didn't finish a Mythic because I couldn't find a competent group to kill the 3 Toau kings, or a group that cared to. I had the alex (18k/30k barely trying), nyzul and einherjar parts done. My 90 emp was done 1/3 in LS, 1/3 with friends and 1/3 just standing near the ??? and helping randoms proc blue/red in exchange for hearts, it took a little over a week. Relics/Mythics deserve a boost because they were once and still are a major accomplishment. Emps are a dime a dozen. In my LS which has been around for years we have 1 Relic remaining and a dozen or so emps, most were done since Feb 1st. Yes the novelty of a Relic/Mythic is long gone, but the effort and accomplishment far exceeds what they are doing with Emps. And dont get me started on the 8k or so mobs I grinded through, most relics quit because of the gayness of those trials.

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We want relics to be better because they ARE better

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If they were better, then you wouldn't have all these "zomg why do relics do less damage than emps" threads would we?

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Originally Posted by Kiba

[dev100x] Relic & Mythic Weapon Adjustments
(Yes I really hope that this becomes a dev topic)

Problem: While adventurers are enjoying abyssea and treasures attained including the mighty empyrean weapons, balance between these new weapons and the previous top tier weapons introduced(relics & mythics) are being ignored. We understand the development team's support on making the game oriented for casual playing(less time grind, enjoy the game more) however this should not be a reason to ignore the balance and disregard the efforts put in by players whom attained relic and mythic weapons. Although the concept of relics will be the best is no longer justified due to times changed, relic/mythic weapon owners still believe that relics and mythic weapons should still be comparable to empyrean weapons considering the amount of time and effort spent.

Solution: Please adjust the Weapon Skill Damage Modifiers for the Relic & Mythic Weapon Skills to be on par with Empyrean Weapon Skills. Relic & Mythic Weapons do not necessarily need to be better than Empyrean Weapons but the damage output difference of thousands is not really acceptable. So please, Development Team, give attention on this area and apply adjustments.

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I Agree but we still have 9 more levels to go w/in updates, I'm sure SE will make it right.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

If they were better, then you wouldn't have all these "zomg why do relics do less damage than emps" threads would we?

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Because you are a mindless number zombie, incapable of seeing beyond high damage.

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Originally Posted by InfamousDS

Because you are a mindless number zombie, incapable of seeing beyond high damage.

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You seem to be the same, because if that were not the case, you'd be fine w/ them currently "being better" and not need to see the highest damage on them.

but the fact you aren't seeing those high numbers on relics and crying about it means you're exactly what you're accusing me of.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Ares legs for ws. Then those got beat out by the later released hachiryu haidate.

Usu was definitely an upgrade for mnk.

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yeah i didn't get into ares, body is good for soloing drg/mage and ws piece for all jobs i think? that use it

I wanted hachiryu haidate so bad for rng ><

about mnk, full time 5/5 when it came out?

I was not calling salvage useless jsut people overrate all 5 and fulltiming all 5 and that those 5 did not replace everything before it.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

You seem to be the same, because if that were not the case, you'd be fine w/ them currently "being better" and not need to see the highest damage on them.

but the fact you aren't seeing those high numbers on relics and crying about it means you're exactly what you're accusing me of.

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I have said at least once my only complaint is with them being better without requiring the same or more effort. I have also said that if everyone didn't live in Abyssea, I wouldn't even care about them being better at all, because that is where these weapons are so overpowered. Your chief argument against relic supporters is "get over yourself, get over it, and go make one". My chief argument is that, even if you were magically given all items for both, the Empyrean would 38x faster (38 days if you use a 30 day month, and a 7 day week, using the minimum absolute, and unchangeable 1 month, 1 week, and 1 day) because there isn't any restriction holding back their acquisition. I want relics to be better because the system is abused and drastically unfair. You want things to stay the same so you can keep bragging about 5k+ damage on your "got it yesterday without trying" weapon.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

about mnk, full time 5/5 when it came out?

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Full usu was better for all things concerning damage since day 1 and was until af3+2 came out. Even a hachiryu haramaki mix and match didn't beat full usu back at 75

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I want relics to be better because the system is abused and drastically unfair.

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Well, they're lifting restrictions on dynamis soon and you'll be able to spam it all you want. So that covers that complaint.

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"got it yesterday without trying" weapon.

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I tried very hard for my weapon. I've no clue what you're talking about.

I leveld whm on a second character and did the majority of it myself. Some people spend 12 hours in Tahrongi to finish their first stage ukon, vereth, etc, but I spent 6-12 hours a day for two and a half weeks straight to do mine.

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I have also said that if everyone didn't live in Abyssea, I wouldn't even care about them being better at all, because that is where these weapons are so overpowered.

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considering Abyssea is done and the next content to come out is going to be outside of abyssea, this will very soon be an invalid argument as well.

Just wondering if anyone read this:

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Originally Posted by Taint

Many people including myself would have 5-10 Emps if the items were sellable.
Relics do take more then some mindless killing...I went 1/35 for my Yoichi test sitting on full currency for 10 months before giving up. (got test doing Apoc 90 trial 18 months later) I didn't finish a Mythic because I couldn't find a competent group to kill the 3 Toau kings, or a group that cared to. I had the alex (18k/30k barely trying), nyzul and einherjar parts done. My 90 emp was done 1/3 in LS, 1/3 with friends and 1/3 just standing near the ??? and helping randoms proc blue/red in exchange for hearts, it took a little over a week. Relics/Mythics deserve a boost because they were once and still are a major accomplishment. Emps are a dime a dozen. In my LS which has been around for years we have 1 Relic remaining and a dozen or so emps, most were done since Feb 1st. Yes the novelty of a Relic/Mythic is long gone, but the effort and accomplishment far exceeds what they are doing with Emps. And dont get me started on the 8k or so mobs I grinded through, most relics quit because of the gayness of those trials.

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I am going to side with InfamousDS and that it does not work the other way around mr soda. Abyssea and its dang Atmas, with the amount of them there are and the little time they where made, you REALLY think there was thought and testing behind them? They are random stats like how I claim PW staff was made.

I would like some details on what emps outdo what relics outside abyssea.

When I say mythics need boosting its because stuff like BLM mythic, SCH mythic and so on underperform magin staffs no matter where they are, and HQ staffs prob outdo SCH mythic under potency atmas ( may get close to blm mythic, I dont know for sure I never ran the numbers) My statments is based on the math I know at level 75.

hey taint how do you make your money now a days anyway? its liek abyssea killed everything, or at lest feels that way.

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Well, they're lifting restrictions on dynamis soon and you'll be able to spam it all you want. So that covers that complaint.

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you atre assuming drop rates will be the same and that people will sell them for the same.

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I would like some details on what emps outdo what relics outside abyssea.

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I can't speak for all weapons, but Vereth outdo Spharai for sure, just not as huge of a margin as inside of abyssea.

Dynamis isn't the issue. Look-up the relic weapons, you'll find yours is still twice as fast as the absolute minimum to make them Cream. Trial of the Magians is, at the very root, the problem. You can, at best (with no 100s), get ~400 city currency a run. You need at least 1 10,000 currency to make a weapon, which means every Dynamis gets you .04% closer to finishing just 1 part. However, the Empyrean needs only 50 of an enemy drop, and with 18 spawns, you can (at best) get 36 drops. That's 72% a run. No, that isn't easier in any way. And while Dyna saves the 10k for last, Emp use the constant 50 after the last timed NM. The systems are nothing alike and they strongly favor Emp weapons. This is my problem, notice damage is only mentioned here at the end.

Well obviously your problem is with relics then, which they are adjusting dyna, so they'll be easier to get in the end. Well more take less time than being easier. They're already easy, just time consuming.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Well obviously your problem is with relics then, which they are adjusting dyna, so they'll be easier to get in the end. Well more take less time than being easier. They're already easy, just time consuming.

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Relics for everyone!

It does not matter if they are changing dyna.....

Relics and mythics still take more time then emps.

even if you can enter everyday it is ppossible they take longer to make then what we know now (not likey but they can change drop rates) . you're assuming.

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Relics for everyone!

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like how i see emp weapons?

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Originally Posted by Rambus

It does not matter if they are changing dyna.....

Relics and mythics still take more time then emps.

even if you can enter everyday it is ppossible they take longer to make then what we know now (not likey but they can change drop rates) . you're assuming.


like how i see emp weapons?

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It really comes down to how much money you have. If you have money and only need fragments and papers, then relics can very well take less time than emps, provided you can enter all you want.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

like how i see emp weapons?

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That will likely be the case.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Well obviously your problem is with relics then, which they are adjusting dyna, so they'll be easier to get in the end. Well more take less time than being easier. They're already easy, just time consuming.

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Or they could instead make Empyreans a real challenge.

Farming Only (using previous numbers):
Relic: 2500 runs, or 2500days (in the new system), which amounts to ~83 months(30day) of daily dynamis. For just the 10k currency. Buying is only viable option.
Empyrean: 2 runs @ 4hours each, 8 hours total. If you can recruit more spawns, you can cut just 1 stage down to around 6 hours, mats cannot be bought.

The difference is extremely clear, the only reason relic is "easy" is if you have unreasonable amounts of gil. And if you go 1/1 on the rare NM that are required kills. Oh, and if you find some way to bypass the 38 day wait, which is far longer then any empyrean story from the last 3 months. They were hard at first, but not anymore, and it was better when they were.

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Originally Posted by Gaspee

That will likely be the case.

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cool ill try get all the relics and emps in a month and get back to ya how that goes.

what is this 38 wait? relics are at smallest 10 days, that gives you a few tries getting paper and drop if you have money before hand.

The waits add absolutely nothing to the challenge. You have to wait for the goblin to upgrade it. What's the challenge in that? "oh hey, it's so difficult to trade him a couple items and not even have to log on till he's done upgrading it!"

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Originally Posted by Rambus

cool ill try get all the relics and emps in a month and get back to ya how that goes.

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Good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

The waits add absolutely nothing to the challenge. You have to wait for the goblin to upgrade it. What's the challenge in that? "oh hey, it's so difficult to trade him a couple items and not even have to log on till he's done upgrading it!"

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still a limit on how meny can be made, 4 emps for every relic if all done at min time.

mythics and relics are rarer, take longer then emp weapons.

So what is the issue with buffing these? emp should be best cuz its new? lol

lower the alexadrite from 14,000 to like 5000

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Originally Posted by Cupofnoodles

lower the alexadrite from 14,000 to like 5000

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you really a grey hair taru? or brown? hard to tell anyways creepy sig

You need 30k atm, used to be 50k I could with 5k but you still have the problems taint talked about and who does ein anymore?

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Originally Posted by Rambus

emp should be best cuz its new? lol

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My new iPhone is definitely better than my old one. Hurray for apples and oranges! xD

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Originally Posted by Cupofnoodles

lower the alexadrite from 14,000 to like 5000

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Love your sig, lol!

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Originally Posted by Rambus

you really a grey hair taru? or brown? hard to tell anyways crappy sig

You need 30k atm, used to be 50k I could with 5k but you still have the problems taint talked about and who does ein anymore?

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They 4-6 man it to get the stuff for thier individual mythics.

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Originally Posted by Gaspee

My new iPhone is definitely better than my old one. Hurray for apples and oranges! xD

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FFIX=/= RL
FFXI =/= wow

like i said earlier how often did SE replace weapons or gear in being 75? Almost none.

Some gear was improvement, small though. for most new gear coming out it meant a new macro more than anything.

2003/2004 gear was still good the days before level cap.

so yeah new =/= better.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

They 4-6 man it to get the stuff for thier individual mythics.

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I never tried at 90 but a troll that keeps spitting out trolls then does a heavy damage aoe + bad breath effect must be really easy for 4-6 people

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Originally Posted by Rambus

still a limit on how meny can be made, 4 emps for every relic if all done at min time.

mythics and relics are rarer, take longer then emp weapons.

So what is the issue with buffing these? emp should be best cuz its new? lol

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I've no issue w/ anything being buffed. If that's what they want to do, then so be it. My issue is w/ relic owner's sense of entitlement, like SE owes them something, lol.

I finally figured out a solution that will please everybody. SE should release Aliment Weapons, you get one of every type as soon as you log-on, 2 if they are 1-hand weapons. There would also be a shield involved. All weapons are all jobs @ level1, and have every WS for that weapon class. DMG is Level*3, CritRate +50%, CritDamage +100%, All stats +100. Then everything we're talking about would be completely irrelevant.