[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM

Give Reds the ability to grant physical and/or magical shield effect that doesn't stack with each other and lasts for 5 seconds with a high mp cost - to help negate severely damaging TP moves to a tank or himself.
Not so OP because timing and player skill is crucial.

The only way enspells are gonna be better at this point is if Reds have an ability to increase the potency or duration of a particular de-buff associated with an en-spell element. For example Slow II or Paralyze II staying 'sticked' with Enstone or EnBlizzard, aside from that lolrdmmeleestopitgtfokthx.

What of the issue of Red's barspells? Is it the Dev's vision to see a Red barelement himself and his party wipes from an elemental explosion and the only one left standing is a Red? So that he can chainspell raise everybody just so that they can get mpk-ed again and see how useless it was inviting a Red for party support?

I don't know what other Enfeebling spells are in the works but I'm certain it won't be anything nearly as effective as an exclusive RDM stun effect spell based off Enfeebling magic.

I'd be all for just deleting the job if it wasn't for the fact that it's a good sub.

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Originally Posted by Camate

We looked into this, however, if we were to add this it wouldn’t be a job trait. The possibility is pretty high that it would be in the form of equipment that a red mage could wear.

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Seriously? That's stupid. Do the SE developers realize that BARD has the fencer trait, with absolutely no need for it? Red Mages need the trait more than they do, even if we only get tier one, and there are already swords and other gear that have better priority for melee over whatever you'll be adding with a fencer effect. Get your heads out of your asses and give us Fencer, damnit.

It's more convenient for Reds as players to lug around an extra set of gear that give fencer trait rather than coding that in.
Just see it as the overall effort going towards RDM.

I'd be overjoyed if they'd just give me the option of transferring my Red levels to another job.

A good Red is dependent on gear swaps so they probably figured, 'they're used to it, so why not'.

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Originally Posted by Deadvinta

Seriously? That's stupid. Do the SE developers realize that BARD has the fencer trait, with absolutely no need for it? Red Mages need the trait more than they do, even if we only get tier one, and there are already swords and other gear that have better priority for melee over whatever you'll be adding with a fencer effect. Get your heads out of your asses and give us Fencer, damnit.

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While I question how useful Fencer would actually be (in the world where dual wield stomps single wield), I agree with this sentiment. You're tossing in fixes through gear. Which means they don't shake or otherwise affect class identity and instead lean more toward the territory of "toys".

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Originally Posted by Camate

As was stated in the preface of the job adjustments concept, the core concept of these adjustments is to make each job useful in HNM fights as well as other battle-related content. That said, we mentioned that the job adjustments will focus on party structuring, but that doesn’t mean that we will not be looking into the sword-wielding proficiency of red mages. We are actually planning adjustments to red mage’s proficiencies in the upcoming version update.

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The way you word this worries me.

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Originally Posted by Camate

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Give red mage the “Fencer” job trait!

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We looked into this, however, if we were to add this it wouldn’t be a job trait. The possibility is pretty high that it would be in the form of equipment that a red mage could wear.

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Quit trolling and change the trait's name already.

Am I the only one that was disappointed that not a single thing was mentioned in regards to cure V or even the aura affect on our enhancement spells? These two things alone will decide if its time to hang up the Chapeau for good or not... Yet all they talked about was enfeebles and mele... honestly rdm mele is a dead concept, you want to mele like a mele, level a mele job.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Am I the only one that was disappointed that not a single thing was mentioned in regards to cure V or even the aura affect on our enhancement spells? These two things alone will decide if its time to hang up the Chapeau for good or not... Yet all they talked about was enfeebles and mele... honestly rdm mele is a dead concept, you want to mele like a mele, level a mele job.

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If it was a dead concept, so many players wouldn't be so loud about it. It's one of the few things that define this job as it's archetype away from the now many other mage job archetypes available in the game. And while I completely agree that for HNM fights our primary source of contribution should be magical, those improvements should not come at the full neglect of our martial status. As the level cap goes up, there's going to continually be more content Red Mage is going to pull their blades out for, as the wealth of content for this game just gets richer. (Till we hit PS2 limit.)

Cure V, and the concerns about it have been addressed through Scholar update patch notes: They're trying to avoid the same bread and butter cure power and give alternatives. We're probably more likely to see Regen III on our list than Cure V if that is their approach. If the lack of Cure V makes you want to hang up your hat, continue to play WHM.

Red Mage is one of the most popular mains in the game, it's healthy for the community that it shaves off a few people to other jobs they enjoy more.

As far as the Aura type buffs, that's a valid question, IMO, and it wasn't addressed. I'd like to see what their response to that is.

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The way you word this worries me.

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Why should it?

It exactly follows the "Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" approach that has been the Red Mages staple since people played it. I've said so many times before Dulle, but your approach to the job is too extreme. The job needs to be tweaked, not re-written. More important than the Melee aspect of the job is to improve the use and effectiveness of our buff/debuff game, then our Melee side can either tie into that, or be given a general performance buff to compensate for the separation.

If I'm to gander a speculation as to what was said. Essentially they like the fact that our debuffing concepts and our melee concepts are kept separate roles. Essentially, that when we are put in situations in which our debuffs are not effective because the monster is dieing too fast, that's when we're pulling out our swords. And the situation between when you melee, and when you focus primarily on debuffing, is a gradient as opposed to a checklist. The longer the fight, the less our melee becomes effective and the more effective our debuffs become. (Buffing being universal between these)

I can live with that.

However. That means I want more effectiveness in both melee and debuff aspects for their intended areas. (HNMs need to be more susceptible to debuffs and have a wider array of debuffs to inflict them with, and RDM's melee performance should be more influential on lesser monster. Either by a straight performance boost, or a means of assisting the party's damage better.) So far, SE's shown that that's about what they're doing, but in their usual "This is way too vague for you to start harping on us about the specifics until the patch is out." deal.

I'm interested in seeing where SE goes with this, and am glad that the 'stri' file was actually for Red Mages. Looking forward to seeing the job adjustment details.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

If it was a dead concept, so many players wouldn't be so loud about it.

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Yes they would.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Cure V, and the concerns about it have been addressed through Scholar update patch notes: They're trying to avoid the same bread and butter cure power and give alternatives. We're probably more likely to see Regen III on our list than Cure V if that is their approach. If the lack of Cure V makes you want to hang up your hat, continue to play WHM.

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Regens don't cut it when the going gets rough, and I think we both know that. We can argue the effects Cure V will have on job balance until the cows come home, but if you think getting Regen III is going to do anything for our healing game you are sadly mistaken.

When I've read Dev comments, this was how, more less, it was translated into in my mind. Consider it me reading what has been said between lines, or the smallprint:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings red mages!

Thanks for all of your feedback and sorry to keep you waiting! Here are a handful of responses we got from the development team in regards to your questions and requests.

Do you have any plans to enhance the viability of our sword-wielding proficiency?
As was stated in the preface of the job adjustments concept, the core concept of these adjustments is to make each job useful in HNM fights as well as other battle-related content. That said, we mentioned that the job adjustments will focus on party structuring, but that doesn’t mean that we will not be looking into the sword-wielding proficiency of red mages. We are actually planning adjustments to red mage’s proficiencies in the upcoming version update.

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You will not be allowed to tank any HNM, if you try it using some nifty trick, we’ll cripple you even more, so don’t even think about it. Refresh/Haste/Gain-STR or GTHO.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Make it possible to add enfeebling effects to En-spells.
We have no plans for this at the moment. When looking at the current system, where enfeebles take place using magic and En-spells increase damage, we’re pretty satisfied with the current separation of the two.

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En-spells are already awesome (and remember to use En- II for that extra Mag. Evasion- bonus we gave you awhile ago!). They are great asset to any RDM (and their party) meeling in the front lines of current end game content… Oh, wait…

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Originally Posted by Camate

Add higher tier En-spells.
Planning to add these during the next version update. However, this isn’t going to be the tier-III version, we are thinking about a different type of En-spell.

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We were thinking on how to make T3 en-spells suck more than T2, but couldn’t come out with any nice ideas, so you’re not getting any. How about en-poison or en-virus for extraawesome damage?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Add an ability that enhances the effect of En-spells.
We would like to look into perhaps having this take place through merit points.

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Spend 5 merit upgrades to buff your enspells by +5 damage. Hell, spend 10 for +10! Bargain!!

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Originally Posted by Camate

Make it possible for red mage to use Enlight and Endark.
Enlight and Endark are special magic spells for paladin and dark knight respectively and we have no plans to add them to red mage at this time.

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*This one sounds fair enough to me. Bit sad it’s DRK and PLD, that got something actually nice out of this deal tho.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Get rid of the 100% enfeeble resists on some monsters.
In regards to monsters that are completely resistant to certain spells, there is a high possibility that we won’t make any significant changes. However, there aren’t really too many of these monsters, so in regards to adjustments making it possible to land enfeebling magic easier, we feel it would be better for red mage’s to experience this effect on a larger amount of monsters.

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You can already enfeeble almost any NM/content no one cares about anymore, so why complain?
Yes, we’ve put slow/paralyze/gravity/silence in this game, but we don’t want them to be used to win battles for any content lv70+. You should’ve gotten the hint when we added Greater Colibri, yo!

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Originally Posted by Camate

Add new enhancing magic.
Since enhancing magic is an area that red mages excel at, we would like to add something. We have been receiving a lot of ideas for enhancing magic and we will be keeping them in mind when exploring this subject.

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Gain-STR to cycle through all DDs in your party, Gain-INT when in mage party, make them all demi-gods! Hell, how about cycling these two on everyone in the alliance? We might add Gain-ATK, just don’t Accession it, that wouldn’t keep you busy enough, yo!

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Originally Posted by Camate

Will red mage be able to the use the higher tier Gravity?
We are planning to make this spell a red mage-specific spell, but are continuing to evaluate it.

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Gravity II, resisted by anything tagged as Notorious Monster. Modus Veritas’s little brother!

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Originally Posted by Camate

Allow red mages to use one-hand sword weapon skills that can only be used by certain jobs and support jobs. We also want staff weapon skills.
We will be looking into both of these along with the weapon skills revamp.

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Suuure, use any weapon/WS you want, just stay out of any end-game tanking. There’s a lot of fun to be had in Campaign Battles, look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Give red mage the “Fencer” job trait!
We looked into this, however, if we were to add this it wouldn’t be a job trait. The possibility is pretty high that it would be in the form of equipment that a red mage could wear.

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We will add a lv80 sword and call it a day, job well done! It’ll pair up nicely with that Shield Mastery+1 shield you got like 30 levels ago.

RDMs are getting Cure 5 next patch. Keep in mind RDM learns cures before SCH does, and the level cap is only going up to 95 next patch. The SCH update notes indicated that they won't be getting Cure 5(for now), meaning not 91-94, but remember RDM learns Cure IV before 50 while PLD/SCH learns Cure 5 at lvl 55 which is above G1 level cap. So most likely we will be getting Cure 5.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

It exactly follows the "Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" approach that has been the Red Mages staple since people played it. I've said so many times before Duelle, but your approach to the job is too extreme.

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Zirael's mind translation covers why nicely:

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You will not be allowed to tank any HNM, if you try it using some nifty trick, we’ll cripple you even more, so don’t even think about it. Refresh/Haste/Gain-STR or GTHO.

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Toss in "you also will never swing a sword at anything half meaningful outside of soloing/campaign" and you get how I interpreted that post.

I agree that their vision of this job and the reality of it is a big gaping hole between the two. For one it never made any since to me that spells like Haste dont have an aga version of it. As a matter of fact if RDM best magical is skill is Enfeebling magic why doesn all those spells have an AoE version of them that is RDM only? Same with Enhancing magic as well. I can understand a WHM having aga Cures but with the way people insist on making RDM nothing but a wimpy nurse(which is why i rarely ever party unless I'm really bored/impatient) then the least they could do is give enhancing AoE enhancing spells (Haste, Phalanx, Enspells, Regen, Refresh) to make life easier and they should be EXCLUSIVE to RDM if they ever do that but I would die holding my breath waiting on remove head from rear and wise up. If they did that I might even actually consider being a nurse more often especially if they took it one step further and allowed the effect of composure to be expanded to the party the ease the casting load since the spells would last longer.

As far as melee go I dont know what the big issus is with it beyond maybe more powerful weaponskills. I personally think the real issue is that the weapons base damage just flat out is garbage in comparison to say the two-handed great weapons. To be fair however I am lazy and dont have any of those weapons everybody makes a big deal about like Joy toy and what not nor have I done any of the quested weapon skill stuff either but as far as regular mob go i haven't had to many problems dispatching mobs until i've gotten with in 5 levels of my actual job level (85-90) then I start to wish I was doing more damage.

Personally as far as RDM melee goes and acutally all jobs I would like all jobs where their strongest weapons are one-handed all recieve Dual-wield. More specifically like NIN will most likely get a dual-wield 6 when all the caps are finally complete and that is fine but for other jobs the max DW trait acquired by the MAIN jobshould be as follows:

A Skill - Dual Wield 5 at max but at least Dual Wield 4
B Skill - Dual wield 4 at max but at least Dual Wield 3

This is regardless of the + and minuses in skill and would allow all jobs to contribute the physical demise of a mob. The DoT of spell cant compare to the Dot done by the physical weapon unless SE factors in more of your actual skill into the damage calculations which i seriously doubt they ever will. I guess I just hate knowing there is a weapon that isnt drawn and doing any physical damage to a mob even if it is just a little bit. In addition this will allow for more flexibilty in sub job choices for those who want to dual wield and not have to worry about losing the abiltiy to dual wield. Those who still Sword and board it can still continue to do so but at least u will have the OPTION of switching without losing the benefits of the sub job of our choice like the very popular RDM/BLM and RDM/WHM combo.

(Sigh) Then again give people unrestricted choices isnt exactly SE strongsuit now is it? One can only hope they will someday make a liar our of me.

I feel like the hinting toward WS restrictions is probably the melee camp's biggest hope out of all of this. While another core argument remains in gear selection, I'm comfortable in saying that releasing appropriate gear shouldn't really be worthy of an update note, as such specifics have never really happened before. Just do it without locking them behind Voidwatch, WoE, or other such insufferable NMs nobody wants to fight JUST for a melee RDM and we'd be pleased.

Otherwise indifferent on our new "enspell" and would still like to see T2s fixed to be on-cast instead of on-strike. The whole enhancing/enfeebling concept still seems to be a bit of a head scratcher without more info, though, especially when you start comparing us to other jobs.

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Toss in "you also will never swing a sword at anything half meaningful outside of soloing/campaign" and you get how I interpreted that post.

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You know what? For the life of me, I will never understand why people like you think this is so shameful. If you like to do it, there is finally a place in the game that rewards you for doing so. If you don't like the way EXP parties bar you from doing it, you've got some place you can now. And you can still be part of the player community in doing so now that participation in Campaign has actually risen, as well as giving a modestly good amount of EXP now. And bonus, it is relevant again now that you can use Allied Notes to purchase items for Voidwatch.

You keep resisting Campaign as an option, yet you've already forgotten there was a time when Campaign was the most relevant system in the game. It was during the event's heyday that RDM got Composure and Enspell IIs (granted, the Enspell IIs ended up being a huge flop and Composure has received mixed opinions). People formed 3 hour long lines waiting for an opportunity to do the Campaign-enabled battles like Fiat Lux. Just this past weekend, I waited for 2 1/2 hours for a chance to do Plucking Wings. So I just don't get why you keep belittling it as if it's nonsense.

Hell, maybe what people shouldn't be asking for is a melee buff, but new events added to the game that cater to more free playstyles. You want to melee higher tier NMs like Rani or Shinryu? Well, short of Primeval Brew, it just ain't gonna happen. I keep saying that the game design as it exists now doesn't require RDM to receive a melee buff.

Maybe people should just let go of all their hang ups and stop letting other people dictate how they play their game. Short of a nerf, what is anybody going to do about it if RDM does/doesn't get a melee buff? Quit the job? Frontline and backline advocates don't have to answer that question cause you all know you're not going to do it.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Am I the only one that was disappointed that not a single thing was mentioned in regards to cure V or even the aura affect on our enhancement spells? These two things alone will decide if its time to hang up the Chapeau for good or not... Yet all they talked about was enfeebles and mele... honestly rdm mele is a dead concept, you want to mele like a mele, level a mele job.

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Originally Posted by Camate (Scholar pt. 3)

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Make it possible to use Cure V.

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In regards to support capability, we’re thinking more in the direction of adjustments that will differ from white mage.

Instead of just simply adding a high-tier Cure, we’re looking into making it so scholars can raise their performance further by enhancing the effects of stratagem use and regen-type magic. However, this doesn’t mean that we won’t be adding a high-tier Cure later down the line.

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Originally Posted by Camate (Scholar pt. 3)

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Add sphere-type spells.

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For sphere effects, there would be no way of handling the opposite enfeebling effects, such as Slow versus Haste effects. This makes it an extremely powerful spell, so from a balance perspective it will not be easy to do.

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I suspected these were pointed at as as much at Rdm as they were at Sch. (especially since they mentioned Gravity II which they then said was Rdm specific).

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I also agree that I hope that instead of getting Cure 5 we get a more unique style of cure.

Adding Cure 5, regardless of balance implications, will do more to destroy the identity between mage jobs then any other single spell.

There are lots of unexplored alternatives to curing and I would be disappointing if SE decides to take the lazy way out and just stick the Cure 5 bandage on the job.

Don't get me wrong, we need some form of curative assistance since Blu can heal better then Rdm atm, but Cure 5 is like trying to remove a splinter with a chainsaw.

I feel that by adding Cure 5 it will have balance implications for the maximum power of enfeebles we will be given later on.

If we can heal almost as well as a Whm they aren't going to let us 'enfeeble like a Rdm' as well.

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Some might say that Cure 5 is the only alternative to safely keep a tank at full HP after a dangerous TP attack.

First off there are plenty of other ways to protect a tank from a follow-up after a dangerous TP attack other than Cure 5.

Second, should Rdm be able to do this by himself? Rdm isn't a Whm. Rdm isn't a healing specialist. I'm not saying Whm should be the only option, but Rdm shouldn't be Whm lite.

Rdm is a hybrid and if Rdm has enough healing power to primary heal entire alliances from these Super HNMs with deadly TP attacks and dangerous follow ups then frankly...the games too easy and/or there's not enough difference between Rdm and the specialist.

I don't believe Whm should be the only option, but frankly Scholar should be the second choice. Yes, Rdm gets cure spells a few levels earlier then Scholar, but Ranger also gets more accuracy bonus then any other job so clearly they are supposed to melee. I don't want to base a jobs entire performance off one little thematic snippet.

If you really want to debate thematics Rdm gets less cure potency gear then summoner, a job without a native healing skill. I mean realistically the most a Rdm is going to have is around ~30% with 3 pieces of gear. You know...I'd have to check it but even Pld might get more PC gear then Rdm.

Can you honestly say a Rdm should be out healing a Sch with Light Arts and addendum White?

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Also, is it possible to separate the evasion down effect and the slows movement speed from Gravity II. I know there are plenty of monsters that it might be nice to actually have that evasion down effect from gravity except that the monsters immune to it because SE is to afraid of a kite solo.

I'd almost prefer Gravity II was just a more powerful evasion down effect without the movement speed reduction so it's actually useable on things where we need it instead of it just being the an extra safety net when Sleep, Sleep II, Bind, Break, and Gravity are all resisted on monsters that are easy enough to cap accuracy anyway.

Unless the devs actually feel like making this Gravity actually useful on tougher things...that would be welcome as well.

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Originally Posted by Ketaru

You know what? For the life of me, I will never understand why people like you think this is so shameful. If you like to do it, there is finally a place in the game that rewards you for doing so. If you don't like the way EXP parties bar you from doing it, you've got some place you can now. And you can still be part of the player community in doing so now that participation in Campaign has actually risen, as well as giving a modestly good amount of EXP now. And bonus, it is relevant again now that you can use Allied Notes to purchase items for Voidwatch.

You keep resisting Campaign as an option, yet you've already forgotten there was a time when Campaign was the most relevant system in the game. It was during the event's heyday that RDM got Composure and Enspell IIs (granted, the Enspell IIs ended up being a huge flop and Composure has received mixed opinions). People formed 3 hour long lines waiting for an opportunity to do the Campaign-enabled battles like Fiat Lux. Just this past weekend, I waited for 2 1/2 hours for a chance to do Plucking Wings. So I just don't get why you keep belittling it as if it's nonsense.

Hell, maybe what people shouldn't be asking for is a melee buff, but new events added to the game that cater to more free playstyles. You want to melee higher tier NMs like Rani or Shinryu? Well, short of Primeval Brew, it just ain't gonna happen. I keep saying that the game design as it exists now doesn't require RDM to receive a melee buff.

Maybe people should just let go of all their hang ups and stop letting other people dictate how they play their game. Short of a nerf, what is anybody going to do about it if RDM does/doesn't get a melee buff? Quit the job? Frontline and backline advocates don't have to answer that question cause you all know you're not going to do it.

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We were capable of meeling some endgame content in the past (Jailer of Love tanking and whatever not) but our balls were basically cut off, because we were putting PLD's flawed job design to shame. So in like 2 version updates RDM got kicked out from that niche we had back into Haste/Refresh bi*ch.
That leaves some sour aftertaste in mouth. Sure, we still live on, but can't hit on all the cute girls (HNMs) around anymore, because, what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Some might say that Cure 5 is the only alternative to safely keep a tank at full HP after a dangerous TP attack.

First off there are plenty of other ways to protect a tank from a follow-up after a dangerous TP attack other than Cure 5.

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I'm genuinely curious to hear what these "plenty of other ways" are, and Cure IV doesn't count.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Second, should Rdm be able to do this by himself? Rdm isn't a Whm. Rdm isn't a healing specialist. I'm not saying Whm should be the only option, but Rdm shouldn't be Whm lite.

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No, RDM isn't a WHM, but it should be "good enough" so that it can fill in when the white mage is either face-down in the dirt or not online. WHM is in no danger of having its crown of Best Healer taken away, but I think we can all agree that we'd like to hurl a few rocks to knock off the one that reads Only Healer.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Rdm is a hybrid and if Rdm has enough healing power to primary heal entire alliances from these Super HNMs with deadly TP attacks and dangerous follow ups then frankly...the games too easy and/or there's not enough difference between Rdm and the specialist.

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HNMs...with one healer. Hyperbole perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Can you honestly say a Rdm should be out healing a Sch with Light Arts and addendum White?

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Actually I'd just ask why the Red Mage isn't using Light Arts and Addendum: White, but that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Zirael

We were capable of meeling some endgame content in the past (Jailer of Love tanking and whatever not) but our balls were basically cut off, because we were putting PLD's flawed job design to shame. So in like 2 version updates RDM got kicked out from that niche we had back into Haste/Refresh bi*ch.
That leaves some sour aftertaste in mouth. Sure, we still live on, but can't hit on all the cute girls (HNMs) around anymore, because, what's the point?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point of using Red Mage on JoL to be able to tank without engaging? I never got to see it in action myself, but that's how I'd always heard it explained.

If your tank was engaged to a NM there was no point in having a Rdm tank. Unless your other tank was a bad Pld, I guess. Even then Pld still has higher skill than Rdm and access to better gear and same weapons.

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You know what? For the life of me, I will never understand why people like you think this is so shameful.

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Maybe people should just let go of all their hang ups and stop letting other people dictate how they play their game.

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Is it hard to grasp that people want to play with others, not just with other people coincidentally around? Sure, Campaign got an EXP buff recently (offensive battles still blow if no mobs are around, though), but once you're capped off on your merits, rank, and such, then what? It is unfortunately old content with little incentive going for it, and as an individual, your contributions don't really translate to much. Especially when the crux of Campaign progress tends to fall in those 10-12 hours prior to tally where a lot of people reading this are probably asleep or close to it.

I've said it before, but being shuffled aside to solo old/weak content is an insulting way of saying, "You don't matter." It's not hard to figure out why such opinions have been formed, as we've argued the cons time and again, but if you want to argue such a dismissive play style boasts a meaningful longevity to any player... well, let's just say I'll argue against it and leave it at that. Nobody likes being excluded, and the unfortunate root of that problem in FFXI tends to lie in a lack of use. Sure, some will gobble up being pure mage just so they don't feel time spent leveling wasn't wasted or use it as an easy street to other-job loot, but the importance of RDM's conceptual package can not ignore its martial side like it has up until this point. Even the "Melee fodder, magic bosses" line is a farce if all you do or are expected to do is fight "bosses" with the job (Which is basically Voidwatch since you can't interact with outside mobs during a fight). Or in Abyssea's case, the inconvenience of making others wait to shift atmas around after farming pops.

Your melee on stronger mobs doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Ketaru

You know what? For the life of me, I will never understand why people like you think this is so shameful.

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Magic Fencer =/= buff bot. That's for starters. We've had this conversation before, though, so I won't do a rerun of that discussion.

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I've said it before, but being shuffled aside to solo old/weak content is an insulting way of saying, "You don't matter." It's not hard to figure out why such opinions have been formed, as we've argued the cons time and again, but if you want to argue such a dismissive play style boasts a meaningful longevity to any player... well, let's just say I'll argue against it and leave it at that. Nobody likes being excluded, and the unfortunate root of that problem in FFXI tends to lie in a lack of use. Sure, some will gobble up being pure mage just so they don't feel time spent leveling wasn't wasted or use it as an easy street to other-job loot, but the importance of RDM's conceptual package can not ignore its martial side like it has up until this point. Even the "Melee fodder, magic bosses" line is a farce if all you do or are expected to do is fight "bosses" with the job (Which is basically Voidwatch since you can't interact with outside mobs during a fight). Or in Abyssea's case, the inconvenience of making others wait to shift atmas around after farming pops.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point of using Red Mage on JoL to be able to tank without engaging? I never got to see it in action myself, but that's how I'd always heard it explained.

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You are right, I was talking about RDM being a tank, not meeling HNMs to death in particular.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Is it hard to grasp that people want to play with others, not just with other people coincidentally around?

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Do what Hyrist did for years and run with a group who's willing to accommodate your non-standard style of play.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Sure, some will gobble up being pure mage just so they don't feel time spent leveling wasn't wasted or use it as an easy street to other-job loot

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Or because they genuinely enjoyed the mage side of it. You keep leaving that part out and I wish you wouldn't.

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I've said it before, but being shuffled aside to solo old/weak content is an insulting way of saying, "You don't matter."

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I fail to see why anybody in this game should think their opinion matters more than anybody else's. A certain subset of people are looking at this DEV announcement and looking at it as if it's some moral failing on those for frontline and a losing battle for those of backline. In the end, this is what they have decided is to be. And so I go back to my last question? Is anybody going to quit over it? Probably not.

Wanting to play with others is all well and good, but whose approval are you looking for really? Your friends that will probably let you do whatever you want anyway so long as you can prove you're not idiotic about it? Pickup parties- the groups in this game that prove time and time again to be of questionable quality? Power players that have always systematically excluded certain jobs? Forget the last group. They're the ones that put jobs like SAM on a pedestal for years, then quickly relegated it to loluselessinabyssea status as soon as it proved to not be optimal. They're not going to stand up for any job on principal alone, which is what the melee-update-for-RDM advocates are all about.

In fact, treating RDM as any other meleer, it's really no different from what's going on right now where we've got a tank/DD on the target and nothing else. Just a bunch of DRGs and DRKs standing around because they're just another unit feeding the mob TP and another unit that needs to be healed. The fact that damage dealer jobs aren't even allowed to perform their main function in an optimal setting should tell you that the current game design has bigger problems that RDM not being allowed to melee is only a small part of.

A melee update is an improvement on the job (so long as its not a nerf...it shocks me that some of you would even ask for this) that people should just accept gracefully. Yes, even the backline-only people. It's not like that side of things has been ignored seeing as the Job Manifesto explicitly states future updates are going to be in the Enhancer/Enfeebler direction. But it's naive to even ask for a melee update so strong that people will ask RDMs to melee higher tier NMs when not even the more traditional melee jobs are not allowed to do it.

Sorry, but I'll see WHMs with an identity crisis when applied to most practical applications of the "mage" RDM. You can try to argue until you're blue in the face about how every RDM solos hard crap or that it's also practical, but it's not. It's a job I've seen plenty get burnt out on or outright try to avoid playing doing old endgame where all that was demanded of them were cures, refresh, haste, and maybe the occasional chainspell stun.

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A melee update is an improvement on the job (so long as its not a nerf...it shocks me that some of you would even ask for this) that people should just accept gracefully. Yes, even the backline-only people. It's not like that side of things has been ignored seeing as the Job Manifesto explicitly states future updates are going to be in the Enhancer/Enfeebler direction. But it's naive to even ask for a melee update so strong that people will ask RDMs to melee higher tier NMs when not even the more traditional melee jobs are not allowed to do it.

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And that's really that point right there. That other Melee Jobs do not melee on the monster.

Now if Red Mage gained a utility that would allow for this, then I'd be in support of encouraging Red Mage more in the front lines, because it would help other Melees do their job better.

However, I'm more in support of just expanding the horizons of what they can melee on acceptably, through performance increases and utility. I'm not expecting to Melee High Tier NMs, and if players are wanting to do that then they're best fitting with a group which will allow for that playstyle.

However, I'm not expecting a class-rewrite to accommodate desires of bringing Red Mage to the front lines on HNMs. As far as creating a new unique role for Red Mages for HNMs, there should be no issues really in giving Red Mage better spells that assist with this.

The "Anything That matters" Argument is really false. Because honestly, every fight matters, no matter the difficulty or 'tier'. Every battle usually has a purpose behind it, even if it is just personal enjoyment. My only request is that melee is elevated beyond the simple 'toy' phase to be more acceptable in events that contain a good deal of cannon fodder. Battlefield content like Walk of Echoes, Dynamis, or any other new or current updates they wish to add.

Through, right now. the biggest challenge in the game for me, is getting into it.

*grumblebillingwithclicktobuygrubmle*

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Originally Posted by Rayik

We've been clamoring for more effectiveness in melee (Just give us a magic elemental WS for F's sakes!!!!) and instead we're getting shoved to the back line permanently.

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I looked through this entire thread and not a single person corrected this. Red Mage not only has a magic elemental WS, they have access to the best magic elemental WS, and on top of that, they (ignoring sub) arguably have the best stats for this WS.

Aeolian Edge is incredibly powerful, and hardly affected by damage rating of your dagger if at all. That said, Red Mage gets access to the best daggers available, although you may have to stick to a Blau for a while until you can acquire one of the slightly harder to get ones.

In addition to providing Red Mage with solid weapon skills, daggers attack more often (great for enspells) and have the same amount of skill as Red Mage has with a Sword, unlike other classes that may end up resorting to a Dagger to augment damage.

In addition, you can solo farm in Abyssea like no other job can, since you can Phalanx yourself, cure yourself, and even get a combination of Azure and Amber lights. How's that for melee? Maybe you won't be able to solo the NMs, but taking on thirty easy prey mobs at once seems pretty bad ass to me.

Perhaps this isn't what people mean by melee (is a non-empyrean sword really necessary to qualify as RDM melee?) but it is very powerful. Red Mage always has and always will have some sharp tricks up its sleeve, and a feather in its hat, for those who can earn it. The lack of a correction on this matter over ten pages of text makes me wonder though... for a traditionally backline job to melee, you have to want it, and not knowing your abilities shows a distinct lack of care.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

I'm genuinely curious to hear what these "plenty of other ways" are, and Cure IV doesn't count.

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I know I've made a post about this in the past and that was only scratching the surface of possibilities

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Actually I'd just ask why the Red Mage isn't using Light Arts and Addendum: White, but that's just me.

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Though this may be a slight assumption, but if you are saying that a Rdm with Light Arts and Add White should heal better then a Sch then are you saying the reverse is true as well?

A Rdm can't nuke as well as a Sch using Dark Arts and Add Black. It'd be weird if they couldn't considering that they aren't able to be as flexible when switching between light and dark.

What makes healing the exception on Rdm? Why should a job that has to limit his spell selection to cure, not be as efficient as the job that has everything at the same time?

Certainly the aesthetic that Red Mage gets cures a few levels earlier then Sch shouldn't be the entire basis of your argument.

Edit: Bah, my bad on the double post

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Red Mage not only has a magic elemental WS, they have access to the best magic elemental WS

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We have access to Wildfire?

Joking aside it would be slightly easier to justify the use of Aeolian Edge if we had access to the TotM daggers. Sure, we can AE decently with the martial knife but our melee DoT then becomes worse then a KClubbing Ranger and the Ranger will feed less TP too.



That was sarcasm though not that far off from the truth

AE loses a lot of steam if you're not fighting 2+ mobs, either. Seeing how with the proper atmas I can crank Sanguine Blade up to 3k+ on mobs that won't resist, I'd rather be using that for one-on-one fights. Would just be nice if we didn't have to have a specific sub for it.

I certainly think that Red Mage should have the ToM Daggers, even if they are excluded from the Empyrean Dagger for whatever odd balance reason. That said, I've seen a Paladin pull 1200+ damage Aeolian Edges using Ultimate/Beyond/Gales and a level 12 knife (he also capped shield doing this). Red Mage doesn't even have to sub a job for access to the weapon skill so the choices are open (although main handing a Twilight Knife and off-handing a Joyeuse or a magian multihitter sword certainly sounds like a solid alternative to a Martial Knife).

Assuming SE gives RDM Staff skill, subbing WHM for Cataclysm may be viable too (ever think you'd see the day where you'd sub WHM for more DD power?). That said, I'm envious of Red Mage, as they can do a powerful AOE WS while offhanding a trial weapon when they work on their multihitters, working on a multihitter as a White Mage takes a lot more relying on others or a lot more time whacking things.

Heh, at least WHM/NIN can main-hand a damaging weapon. Working on my 2-4x scythe was utter hell on DRK since not far into it its delegated to a D40ish weapon that off the bat tends to put you against mobs level 65+ outside of Abyssea. Got more tolerable once it could actually mult-hit, but before then... ugh.

Why Scythe? Most Dark Knights I've seen go for the Great Sword (Which shares a surprising amount of trials with the multihitter Club) for whatever reason, I figure its so they can also use the weapon on Paladin.

I had a few reasons. Skill up weapon for later dates, possible SEBW zerging, and as the main weapon for a good atma/gear build for Infernal Scythe, Endark is also boosted to 70+ a whack, too. WSing and having enough TP to WS again after 1 round isn't impossible, either. Sure, a near-guaranteed 2k+ WS might not be the epeen of other crit-fueled ventures, but the speed you can crank them out counts. Herc Slash is the better WS, sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if those people also had PLD on the side, but I haven't jumped toward that trial if only because I'm not looking forward to mass amounts of gnats and ladybugs. Someday. Maybe. x.x

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Originally Posted by Seriha

I'm not looking forward to mass amounts of gnats and ladybugs.

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I don't know what the NM stage for that weapon is like, but killing Stray Mary x3 was harder then fighting the gnats and ladybugs. If you can get a friend to help, you can do them in Abyssea, but I did both outside. On Ladybugs, I teamed up with a Dark Knight with the Great Sword for much of it, and on Gnats, I worked with some LS members doing random vermin trials or just plain helping. The Gnats were worse, but not too bad. I'm currently working on Qiqirn, which I currently deem worse then Gnats. Because Gnats just try to kill you. Qiqirn run.

Heh, true enough. My luck with chancing upon random people working on the same trials was never that great, though.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Actually I'd just ask why the Red Mage isn't using Light Arts and Addendum: White, but that's just me.

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Because my party will have a whm do the main curing duty, and I'm there as a support. So I would rather be /blm for Stun and Elemental Seal.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Sure, some will gobble up being pure mage just so they don't feel time spent leveling wasn't wasted

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Actually Seriha, I leveled Rdm as a mage job, and I enjoy playing Rdm as a mage job. As mentioned above, you seem to ignore that some people actually enjoy the mage side more and would be happy being a pure mage.

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Actually Seriha, I leveled Rdm as a mage job, and I enjoy playing Rdm as a mage job. As mentioned above, you seem to ignore that some people actually enjoy the mage side more and would be happy being a pure mage.

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Yet, on the same notion, the job's archtype has it functioning as both, and yet you choose to ignore that concept when you approach the job as a 'pure mage'.

I mean, fine, Red Mages in their previous iterations could equip staves/wands and other mage types if that's the way you wanted to play it.

But back in those days Red Mage was out-shined by other more dedicated casters, even Scholar, who worked in different schools of magic just like Red Mage did. The melee aspect was what kept it unique in this case (though the double-cast concept also assisted this when it was added on later.)

There's no reason why either of these aspects should be neglected. Though, honestly, the steriotypes go into both directions.

I've no problem with a SUPPORT caster Red Mage. I've a problem with the job getting pigeon holed into a psudo WHM role. That's not what it's there for, sorry. If you want to give it some healing capacity so it can split the healing duties with some other job that's present and go sans WHM, that's fine, but to try to make it a solo healer, I've got a problem with that.

What Seriha puts to light is the fact that many Red Mages who did like the Mage aspects of the job leveling up, did not do so with a unique concept of the job in mind. Rather, they preformed very much like White Mages with a superior MP endurance and Refresh.

This brings the same two questions to the Mage Side of Red Mage, as is presented to the Melee Side.

Why do you play Red Mage as a backline caster?
Would those reasons not be better suited by another job.

In the case of those who chose RDM as a support caster, right now, Scholar fills that role better. Granted, scholar can be a specialist if it chooses to be, but that only influences the fact that it would be more desirable all around. Where as Red Mage really... has Refresh II, and Chainspell to its credit. The rest are just out-shined or, in a sorry state of affairs, like our enfeebles. Not enough of it melds into a solid role anymore and Red Mages are simply accepted because they are more available.

But the point of them being populated this much, was really contributed to Refresh whoring in the early days, and the psudo-WHM with the super MP pool in the ToAU era.

Back Line Red Mages have no set 'role' so much as they have two single target buffs to cycle, and then make like they're not actually useless and toss a cure in case the WHM is sleeping on the job or overtaxed. Sure, you can 'find things to do' to help contribute to the party more in that timeframe, but as the levels rise, the key reasons you're invited for, refresh and haste, become less important for you specifically to do, as Refresh I is already accessible Subjob wise, not to mention the massive amounts of MP restoration in the game now, and Haste is accessible /whm now, and will be /rdm at 99 cap.


So both of these aspects, Mage and Melee, need to be looked at and updated. And while there is a community that enjoys being back line on Red Mage, they may have to deal with the idea that the job as it may become in the future, won't necessarily be what they want it to be (For example, a capable solo healer.) In the same vein front line Red Mages have to coke down that they might not get as far or the specific role they want for their melee duties (I.E. Tanking.)

So all Red Mages, regardless of the camp they are on, are really going to have to re-evaluate what their image for the job is, and, instead of arguing at each other to say why their particular vision is wrong, instead try to focus on what feedback they should give to SE as to what updates they would want to see, to assist their particular vision for Red Mage, within SE's manifesto.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

I know I've made a post about this in the past and that was only scratching the surface of possibilities

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Ah, so you were talking about the theoretical rather than what's actually on the table now. I notice about half of your solutions are just Regen under different names, and the other half appear to be things that White Mages already do.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Though this may be a slight assumption, but if you are saying that a Rdm with Light Arts and Add White should heal better then a Sch then are you saying the reverse is true as well?

A Rdm can't nuke as well as a Sch using Dark Arts and Add Black. It'd be weird if they couldn't considering that they aren't able to be as flexible when switching between light and dark.

What makes healing the exception on Rdm? Why should a job that has to limit his spell selection to cure, not be as efficient as the job that has everything at the same time?

Certainly the aesthetic that Red Mage gets cures a few levels earlier then Sch shouldn't be the entire basis of your argument.

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Who said anything about healing better than Scholar? Not me. To clarify, I am of the opinion that Scholar and Red Mage should be approximately even when it comes to filling the role of Healer when there is no White Mage available. We can bicker about the specifics of how that is accomplished, but they should both be acceptable alternatives, unlike now where they aren't even alternatives because there is only one acceptable healer for the curent metagame.