Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

Yeah I remember that. I guess it slipped their minds.

EDIT: Just noticed the DRK emo thread posted in general got a response. It's a pretty universal response but it sure would be nice to get our own. Then we would know we aren't being overlooked because we actually post our suggestions in the right sub forum.

They also flat out said BLM will be getting comet AND meteor. But well, those jobs aren't lolTHF.


AKA: What they said to DRKs and BLMs cost nothing and ultimately, those jobs have always had pros and cons which were at least marginally equal. (Before any DRKs go epic QQ on me I've played DRK before, and no it didn't match SAM for the long period SAM was busted, but it didn't suck either).

Thief's issues are way more complex as SE refuses to even ackowledge any problems with it.

I feel like just about everything that can be said has been said.

I'm actually quite surprised just as many THFs hate our over-all lack of well...... everything in all fields except Loot-whoring. Honestly felt like there'd be more people going "ENMITY CONTROL AND DESPOIL UPDATE ROXXXXX".

And despite my obvious NERD-RAGE Earlier, i feel i should at least acknowledge i know the reps are reading here. I know they're looking at our ideas and sending them off if they think they're good.

We just have to hope the Dev team feels our requests are Valid. We love TH, We just don't think thats an excuse to keep the THF job so mediocre in combat that we have no place meleeing anything stronger than a Land worm.

Please note im not talking about Abyssea, Abyssea we're fine, Its outside content that will cause the problem, and outside content is where we're heading. It will be exactly like level 75 all over, Even the best THF is still the worst DD in the party, and your only goal is to make sure you have TH on it, Where a THF is judged only by "Do you have TH4?". I wonder if they notice these things...? I don't want to go back to those days.

Just being all nerdrage by comparison and going to note both of those are in general forum and i think the last thf topic there got moderated back to here. Maybe I should attempt to make a "heres a quick digest of our forums-- not a single person is defending the way steal works etc etc."

I honestly did not even notice both of those were in General until you said something.

I guess job forums are basically no-mans land for Reps lol

Honestly, you can't blame them. Between RDMs who want everything, PLDs who want to be the absolute best attackers and defenders in the game, SMNs who want a "life-sized bahamut that you can ride that one shots everything, can kill players who annoy them, and destroy cities all while restoring MP instead of costing it.", etc, it'd be a headache. However, that could be wrong given they answered job threads, even if they're in the wrong forum.

PS: Those examples are not literal, nor are they saying those jobs don't need fixing as well. (Actually, anyone who thinks PLD is fine is off the rocker and should be banned from any job discussion)

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Originally Posted by Phen

Just being all nerdrage by comparison and going to note both of those are in general forum and i think the last thf topic there got moderated back to here. Maybe I should attempt to make a "heres a quick digest of our forums-- not a single person is defending the way steal works etc etc."

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You should do it. It seems like most of the com.rep. replies come from general discussion which is where none of the threads they are replying to belong. It's pretty annoying. Every job with valid concerns deserves at least an acknowledgement that they have been heard.

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Originally Posted by Alaik

Honestly, you can't blame them. Between RDMs who want everything, PLDs who want to be the absolute best attackers and defenders in the game, SMNs who want a "life-sized bahamut that you can ride that one shots everything, can kill players who annoy them, and destroy cities all while restoring MP instead of costing it.", etc, it'd be a headache. However, that could be wrong given they answered job threads, even if they're in the wrong forum.

PS: Those examples are not literal, nor are they saying those jobs don't need fixing as well. (Actually, anyone who thinks PLD is fine is off the rocker and should be banned from any job discussion)

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I agree the jobs forums are basically "MAKE MY JOB GOD" threads.

Still, We're not even asking to be gods, Just to have a DD output that is acceptable. We basically have no reason to melee except for TH upgrades -.-

I noticed that and I tried posting there but no real comments >.>

Maybe we should bring these ideas to the general forum we might get a response

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Cross forum trolling. It's the new thing.

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It's not new.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Don’t fret dark knights! These example adjustments are just that…examples. It doesn’t mean that every single thing is going to be implemented as stated. All of your suggestions and opinions on these concepts will be relayed to the development team and they will of course consider them when actually creating the adjustments to be implemented. Just keep in mind that their concept of dark knight, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice something in return for something else.

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That is the reply to the Dark Knights complaining about their new JAs. It can be slightly re-written to show what they would respond to this thread, if they could be bothered:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Don’t fret thieves! These example adjustments are just that…examples. It doesn’t mean that every single thing is going to be implemented as stated. All of your suggestions and opinions on these concepts will be relayed to the development team and they will of course consider them when actually creating the adjustments to be implemented. Just keep in mind that their concept of thief, same as in the past, is that they sacrifice damage and usefulness in exchange for gilfinder, steal and treasurehunter.

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yeah lol got that right

Game, set, match Babe. lol

I honestly think that SE won't respond to anything in the job forums. That DRK thread was in general forums, so perhaps you should start this up in there. Hope SE finally gives you guys something cuz I agree its complete bs that war gets everything and other jobs get ignored.

I posted something in the feedback section of the Forums. Whether they see it or not is beyond me- seems like that place is barren of views, for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Knives

I posted something in the feedback section of the Forums. Whether they see it or not is beyond me- seems like that place is barren of views, for the most part.

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You posted that in the forum designated to feedback about the Official FFXI website and forums. You will know when it has been read, because it will be moved^^

Hey i heard this funny joke ata bar:

Scavenge

Yes, scavenge is stupid, but it's a JA that was made 10 years ago. Despoil is new and there is no excuse for stuff coming out now to be that useless.

All triggering weakness does is open up more slots for stuff to drop IIRC, for yellow weakness. TH still heavily affects drop rates of seals and other equipment.

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Originally Posted by Washburn

Hey i heard this funny joke ata bar:

Scavenge

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Yah Scavange is useless. But so is a lot of THF jobs. No reason both cant be updated. Its not like because 1 job has a bad ability no other job deserves updates!

Besides, Scavange is useful for 1 thing! Firesand :O! for bullets. and keeping a timer on NMs with 5 minute respawn placeholders :3

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Besides, Scavange is useful for 1 thing! Firesand :O! for bullets. and keeping a timer on NMs with 5 minute respawn placeholders :3

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That's what hide is for too^^

Hide is also useful for Hiding from Sight Aggressive Enemies and being able to SA from anywhere.

Could also use SATA > hide before a battle and initiate it on the tank without needing a first voke :D! this works great for exp parties too.

Did you know you can use Trick Attack without dropping hide o-o?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Hide is also useful for Hiding from Sight Aggressive Enemies and being able to SA from anywhere.

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At the risk of being the vicitm of sarcasm (dam not being able to tell from the written word!), yes, I've been using this since I got my AF coffer in monastic cavern all those years ago^^

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Could also use SATA > hide before a battle and initiate it on the tank without needing a first voke :D! this works great for exp parties too.

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Think I first used this in quicksand caves on ants^^

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Did you know you can use Trick Attack without dropping hide o-o?

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This I actually only learned in the last year, but have still never used it. Sneak Attack on the other hand, would be far more useful.

Feel free to Whooooosh me if appropriate lol {I'm Sleepy}

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

You posted that in the forum designated to feedback about the Official FFXI website and forums. You will know when it has been read, because it will be moved^^

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Ugh, seriously? I thought it was also for feedback on the game itself. Looks like I wasted a bunch of time, unless I repost it elsewhere and look stupid in the process.

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Originally Posted by Knives

Ugh, seriously? I thought it was also for feedback on the game itself. Looks like I wasted a bunch of time, unless I repost it elsewhere and look stupid in the process.

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Yep unfortunately, sorry to be the bearer of bad news :(

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Yah Scavange is useless. But so is a lot of THF jobs. No reason both cant be updated. Its not like because 1 job has a bad ability no other job deserves updates!

Besides, Scavange is useful for 1 thing! Firesand :O! for bullets. and keeping a timer on NMs with 5 minute respawn placeholders :3

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It's funny you say that, b/c all i've ever used it where it was worth anything was camping Valkurm Emporer. other than that, the materials are old news and not used anymore. It'd be ok if they updated it and made stuff like actual quivers of usable arrows scavengable.

Sorry for wrecking the THF thread with RNG crap.

Hi, just thought I'd add some thoughts from the JA forum, since I can speak Japanese and Karbuncle among others seemed to be wondering about it.
There is now a thread about THF damage and whether it should be raised. シーフの火力(THF damage)
Almost all of the posts are leaning towards not raising THF's DD abilities but giving the job more of a unique place in the party. Most of the posts acknowledge the uselessness of THF's enmity control (or lack of it) and seem to want abilities that are particular to THF which can enhance the party's success. Enhanced dual-wield, enhanced subtle blow, enhanced triple attack, more abilities that can debuff the mob or weaken it (more use of throwing weapons like tathrum (but more like angon) was also mentioned).
That seems to be the general feel of the JA forums. Please remember, none of these are my personal opinions so don't rant at me, ok?

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Originally Posted by Tokiro

Hi, just thought I'd add some thoughts from the JA forum, since I can speak Japanese and Karbuncle among others seemed to be wondering about it.
There is now a thread about THF damage and whether it should be raised. シーフの火力(THF damage)
Almost all of the posts are leaning towards not raising THF's DD abilities but giving the job more of a unique place in the party. Most of the posts acknowledge the uselessness of THF's enmity control (or lack of it) and seem to want abilities that are particular to THF which can enhance the party's success. Enhanced dual-wield, enhanced subtle blow, enhanced triple attack, more abilities that can debuff the mob or weaken it (more use of throwing weapons like tathrum (but more like angon) was also mentioned).
That seems to be the general feel of the JA forums. Please remember, none of these are my personal opinions so don't rant at me, ok?

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In my defense Enhanced Triple Attack and Dual wield fall in line with enhanced Damage :\

I'd like for them to add more utility to thief. In past FF games, THF was never a damage dealer, it was mainly something you used to get more loot and gil. I think it should be the same in this game, add more steal abilities and other unique utility moves. Being able to mug everything would be nice, we rarely fight beastmen anymore. They could also add "mix" to thief and be able to mix together some things like Rikku in FFX and enfeeble and heal and such. Would make soloing easier too for people who want it.

I just mainly feel more steal options should be available. Being able to steal low end equipment (steal head, steal hands, steal legs) while enfeebling (lower stats from stealing, mnd int etc) and not sharing a timer with despoil or steal. I think more emphasis should be placed on utility and not damage, we already have enough damage dealers in this game. Let's face it, THF wasn't a big DD before abyssea and won't be after. It wasn't the intention in past games either, like I said, it was mainly for enhanced loot/gil.

Past games aside, console based Single Player RPGs often play differently than MMOs :| If our job was good for nothing but stealing items and mugging it would be completely useless outside of fun little RP gimmicks.

TH is the only thing keeping us afloat. While i definitely would not discount any more THF-RP-like elements to the job, I don't think it should be the only thing we're good at.

I'm asking for a little versatility, in the DD department, as well as unique things. Theres no reason a job can't have both...

THF does have versatility in that department. It is a mediocre DD at best outside of Abyssea, just like it should be. How are those things nothing but "little RP gimmicks"? They enhance everything the party would want, more loot and gil. I hope you aren't asking THF becomes a top tier DD, that is a little ambitious considering the amount of DD already in the game that are made for that role. Why not ask for something else?

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Originally Posted by Draylo

THF does have versatility in that department. It is a mediocre DD at best outside of Abyssea, just like it should be. How are those things nothing but "little RP gimmicks"? They enhance everything the party would want, more loot and gil. I hope you aren't asking THF becomes a top tier DD, that is a little ambitious considering the amount of DD already in the game that are made for that role. Why not ask for something else?

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Are you trolling Draylo? I know you're not that daft. THF are great as Treasure Hunters, I've admitted this pages back. My only want is to be worth more than TH.

Take BLU, for example. You can DD fine, You can tank to some good extent, You can Cure well ,and you can buff nicely, you cover a lot of different aspects. THF? We're good for Treasure hunter. Nothing else, at all. My only want is for us to be good for things that TH isn't helping us on.

KCNMs, Voidwatch, BCNMs, any Battle-field event really... On Voidwatch as, TH doesnt raise lights above cap so it doesn't do anything you can't do without a THF. Which is sad. I expect more Voidwatch Content and as such THF would be rather pointless to bring to that.

On the bold, If you read the thread or any of my 1000 posts on this subject you know thats not even remotely what i want. right now our DD is mediocre, I want it to be a little above mediocre. Small buffs like say

Triple Attack II (10%) over our normal Base 5%
Dual Wield III~IV (same level as DNC)

Small things like that. Simple boosts to our overall DPS. I don't care what the job was in past Final Fantasy, In past Final Fantasy's Summoners were god-tier, RDMs Meleed, and WHM's shot bows. It doesn't matter what happened in past FF and its the worst argument on the board.

What matters if FFXI, and as such, I'm concerned that THF as a job is condemned to mediocrity simply because players who feel the job should remain garbage because it has TH.

I'm not asking us to out DD WARs, I'm asking for a small boost in the DD department, So when we're invited to TH whore a mob, We can actually contribute a bit more meaningful damage to the battle

Edit: For fairness sake, I'd take some meaningful buff in a support role too. Maybe Traits that hinder the enemy, Rather it be a JA that inflicts the Target with specific Ailments thats not linked to a 10% chance proc, Not working on NMs, and a 5-minute timer, or something that sets the enemy up to be more vulnerable to future attacks.

maybe a JA that increases the damage the enemies takes for a short period? Or an Ability that enhances the potency of Debuffs landed on the enemy after striking it. Something that aids a group like that i would take.

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Originally Posted by Draylo

THF does have versatility in that department. It is a mediocre DD at best outside of Abyssea, just like it should be. How are those things nothing but "little RP gimmicks"? They enhance everything the party would want, more loot and gil. I hope you aren't asking THF becomes a top tier DD, that is a little ambitious considering the amount of DD already in the game that are made for that role. Why not ask for something else?

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Except TH is losing its necessity...
Abyssea: !! trigger is slightly more important than TH, as grellow opens extra slots for drops and blue!! greatly enhances certain drops (though you'll still want TH...but I've 3box plenty of seal NM's finishing sets without grellow and TH7 and got 0/2 seals, then changed setup and killed with grellow and got plenty of 3-4/4 drops, sooooo)
Voidwatch: dont really do it, but from what I'm hearing, TH is a joke, its USELESS.

In Voidwatch TH only ups your lights a small amount, Doesn't raise it beyond the cap or anything.

At best its just lets you hit light cap a teensy bit quicker :|

Which is why I suggested they added more utility to the job. You think adding more DD is going to make people wanna take THF over MNK or WAR or some other better DD for an event where TH isn't needed? I highly doubt that.

@Karbuncle, No I'm not trolling, and I'm not being daft either. I was asking a question, not stating something. If you aren't advocating for THF to be top tier DD then good, if so, get your head out of the clouds. THF only doing one thing? Hello, have you met White Mage, Bard, Black Mage?

I never said THF should remain mediocre (this is a bad statement too, THF is extremely important in this game. I use it for almost EVERYTHING due to increase drop rates which lowers the amount of time you spend doing X thing.) They should be given more utility, yes they can upgrade damage but that shouldn't be a primary focus as it seems you want it to be. If you wanna play a DD job go job change to WAR.

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Originally Posted by Draylo

Which is why I suggested they added more utility to the job. You think adding more DD is going to make people wanna take THF over MNK or WAR or some other better DD for an event where TH isn't needed? I highly doubt that.

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I don't want the Useless kind of Utility is all. a DD improvement and some unique aspects to the job? I could accept either/or.

Secondly, No I don't think they'd invite THF for DD, You don't get it... Thats probably my fault for not spelling it out enough. I'm saying that this tiny DD boost will make us replace a SAM or WAR, Duh, Thats not what i want.

I want, that when Invited to TH whore a mob, That i can at least pull off acceptable numbers that its worth meleeing the mob. Right now its really not, the only reason a THF DDs now is because they cant do anything else. I just want our DD to be a little better so its not so pitiful.

I don't expect to replace a DD, i want to improve damage a bit so when i am invited for TH, i can at least contribute to the party in more than just that 1 way. contribute well.

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@Karbuncle, No I'm not trolling, and I'm not being daft either. I was asking a question, not stating something. If you aren't advocating for THF to be top tier DD then good, if so, get your head out of the clouds. THF only doing one thing? Hello, have you met White Mage, Bard, Black Mage?

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Try reading the thread before posting then? No i dont want THF to be a top tier DD. I'm sorry if i gave that impression.

On 1-thing jobs

WHM - Cure and Buffing both well.
BLM - Enfeebling and Nuking
BRD - you got me there, All they do is sing.

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I never said THF should remain mediocre (this is a bad statement too, THF is extremely important in this game. I use it for almost EVERYTHING due to increase drop rates which lowers the amount of time you spend doing X thing.) They should be given more utility, yes they can upgrade damage but that shouldn't be a primary focus as it seems you want it to be. If you wanna play a DD job go job change to WAR.

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If you read my Edit, I said I'd take utility gain. As long as its not worthless utilities like Enmity control like their "Vision". no one has invited or needed a THF for Enmity control since i started this game in early 2004.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I don't want the Useless kind of Utility is all. a DD improvement and some unique aspects to the job? I could accept either/or.

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I agree, but how are additional steals for more loot/gil useless utility?

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Secondly, No I don't think they'd invite THF for DD, You don't get it... Thats probably my fault for not spelling it out enough. I'm saying that this tiny DD boost will make us replace a SAM or WAR, Duh, Thats not what i want.

I want, that when Invited to TH whore a mob, That i can at least pull off acceptable numbers that its worth meleeing the mob. Right now its really not, the only reason a THF DDs now is because they cant do anything else. I just want our DD to be a little better so its not so pitiful.

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Um, what about THF DD is "pitiful" atm? I assume you are referring to Voidwatch? Otherwise I hope this is a joke in regards to old content(which THF DD'd just fine on at 75 cap aside from few high end NMs) and Abyssea.

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I don't expect to replace a DD, i want to improve damage a bit so when i am invited for TH, i can at least contribute to the party in more than just that 1 way. contribute well.



Try reading the thread before posting then?

WHM - Cure and Buffing both well.
BLM - Enfeebling and Nuking

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We are talking about primary roles here, BLM is a nuker and WHM is a healer, buffs fall under healing and light enfeebling (uh sleep?) doesn't really count as a huge secondary role.

Aside from that, I tank almost everything on my Thief. Thief is a DD, a Tank, Utility in TH, one of the few ability to reduce hate (WHM don't regain hate that quickly, BLM can deal more damage when a THF steals enmity even if it only lasts for 3 nukes or so before they start getting beat.) Thief is a great soloer, can hold mobs very well with evasion, in the past was a decent puller, can enfeeble with bolts (zomg look, same thing you did for BLM). etc etc, stop trying to seem like THF does nothing but TH.

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If you read my Edit, I said I'd take utility gain. As long as its not worthless utilities like Enmity control like their "Vision". no one has invited or needed a THF for Enmity control since i started this game in early 2004.

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I agree, why you are attacking my thoughts though, I don't know.

In abyssea a lot of your points stand. My concerns were never with Abyssea, or out-dated 75-level content.

Its Endgame out of Abyssea, and Endgame through 99 Cap. Where THF will be as weak as we were at 75 (Even further back now if you consider how much the other DD jobs were buffed).

Edit: A bit more...

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Originally Posted by Draylo

I agree, but how are additional steals for more loot/gil useless utility?

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Steals that do something more than take an item would be nice. Taking an item doesnt help your party. at all.

Steals that work on ANYTHING MEANINGFUL (I.E Endgame content, NMs, etc) would be nice too. I would accept them so long as they didnt share timers and actually did something useful.

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Um, what about THF DD is "pitiful" atm? I assume you are referring to Voidwatch? Otherwise I hope this is a joke in regards to old content(which THF DD'd just fine on at 75 cap aside from few high end NMs) and Abyssea.

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yes, we're fine in Abyssea, another point i brought up in one of my countless posts in this very thread...

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We are talking about primary roles here, BLM is a nuker and WHM is a healer, buffs fall under healing and light enfeebling (uh sleep?) doesn't really count as a huge secondary role.

Aside from that, I tank almost everything on my Thief. Thief is a DD, a Tank, Utility in TH, one of the few ability to reduce hate (WHM don't regain hate that quickly, BLM can deal more damage when a THF steals enmity even if it only lasts for 3 nukes or so before they start getting beat.) Thief is a great soloer, can hold mobs very well with evasion, in the past was a decent puller, can enfeeble with bolts (zomg look, same thing you did for BLM). etc etc, stop trying to seem like THF does nothing but TH.

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THF can't do any of those things you listed very well outside Abyssea. Have a THF Tank any T3+ Voidwatch NM... My concern isn't about Easy-mode Abyssea. Its Outside of Abyssea that worries me.

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I agree, why you are attacking my thoughts though, I don't know.

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Because your thoughts seemed to be, judging only your first post "THF is fine you have TH, Give it more Steal and Mug abilities".

Which alone didn't sound very.. intelligent. but the elaboration did help

Wait a sec!