Banned for Windower?

It is not baseless and wrong.

There are plenty of threads on both of those forums that promote the usage of windower, and that is a third party tool. BG even promotes that claim bot before Abyssea came out.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

It is not baseless and wrong.

There are plenty of threads on both of those forums that promote the usage of windower, and that is a third party tool. BG even promotes that claim bot before Abyssea came out.

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It's my impression that Bluegartr is actually an adamantly anti-botting linkshell. They kick people for botting.

As far as Salvage banning having an impact on the economy, the price of all Salvage mats on Garuda went up after the bannings.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

SE could learn a thing or two from them if they really wanted to.

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I agree with this and as a staff member for windower, I hope one day we can communicate such ideas and possibilities with the dev team. If it wasnt for windower itself, this game wouldnt have made it to what it is now and they know it.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

It's my impression that Bluegartr is actually an adamantly anti-botting linkshell. They kick people for botting.

As far as Salvage banning having an impact on the economy, the price of all Salvage mats on Garuda went up after the bannings.

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This is correct.

There is a huge difference between a website promoting 3rd party tools, and a website simply choosing not to censor members who talk about said tools. BG itself as a linkshell is very anti-bot, and the administrators have no real stance as far as I know.

They simply don't censor discussion of Windower, that's all. They actually do actively disallow any direct linking to RMT websites though, despite not being a premier site. Heck, it's my understanding that the biggest reason BG is not a premier site is because of the very NSFW content in the General section, rather than anything posted in the FFXI section.

Not everyone who posts on that website is a member of that linkshell, however.

Exactly. BG as a website? Doesn't promote any 3PP.

Some/most/whatever people who post on BG? Sure, they talk about Windower all the time.

Don't confuse a website's lack of censorship with promotion. People can talk about kicking puppies all they want, that does not mean BG promotes kicking puppies.

Sorry if it came out that way.

I guess I should make myself better understood.

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Originally Posted by Hyshio

If it wasnt for windower itself, this game wouldnt have made it to what it is now and they know it.

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Just want to put emphasis on this statement.

Base FFXI (no windower) is played by probably at maximum 15% of the playerbase (on PC). If everyone who used Windower were suddenly gone, I'd think the game would be reduced to about 1.5 servers worth of people.

Looking at all the stupid decisions SE has made lately, I'm not sure that counting on them to make logical decisions is necessarily wise.

You can be banned at any time for anything or nothing at all. There are a hundred different ways you could get caught in an autobanner and never recover your account. As long as you aren't doing something that gets you noticed by other players and reported, you probably aren't increasing your likelihood of getting banned.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You know, I'm surprised this thread has gone as long as it has.

Even though there really isn't anything wrong with windower, Square-Enix has been adamant about the usage of third party tools and for this to go on for 8 pages without being deleted/completely erased is beyond me.

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I think these days SE are much more keen about improving their game for their customer's liking. I don't think I would know a company that, knowing their product is lacking, wouldn't pay a close attention to it's customers's tinkering and struggle to make it usable to current standards and their needs (ie having fun playing and not having to fight with clunky interface all the time). Sure, SE is very keen on preserving equal gaming experience across all the platforms and I very much appreciate their resolve and respect it, but at the same time they, themselves realise this suffocates growth of their product. SE said several times on these forums regarding simple improvements we asked for (bigger/better managed item inventory, IME keyboard etc and so on) that they would like to, but "spaghetti code" or "PS2 limitations".
To be honest, given their strict view on player equality and fairness, I'm constantly surprised all the windower community doesn't get banned. At the same time I'm surprised PS2 hasn't been dropped yet. I suppose either would hurt significant part of their customers so maybe SE isn't sure they wouldn't look silly by doing that (silly as in a company turning their back to their own loyal customers).
SE has obligations to PS2 users to keep the promise "you can play our game on this platform", they have made. At the same time they need to take responsibility for the crippled state of the PC version. And they might not have a solution to either problem.
Well, FF14 was supposed to be that solution ("hey, you can move to the new and improved FF!") but SE had to take responsibility for their product once again and FF14 has been free to play beta for almost a year now.
Find a solution to these problems and I bet you'll get a chair among their board if not CEO's seat :)

PS: Sorry if this text makes no sense, I've written it multitasking several things ~.~

back on topic its the /macro set x command they added a few years back can allow for extended macros using the in game system, in order to utilize it however requires multiple input from the user still though you can set it up where its easy enough when used proper you can swap all 16 pieces without massive effort.

Example:

macro set 1 control 0:
/macro set 2
/equip "whatever"
/equip "whatever"
/equip "whatever"
/equip "whatever"
/equip "whatever"

macro set 2 control 0
/macro set 1
/equip "whatever"
/equip "whatever"
/equip "whatever"
/equip "whatever"
/equip "whatever"

now by setting up your macros as such all you have to do is quickly double tap control 0 and it will swap up to 10 gear pieces and return you to your home row macro set, you can extend this out to swaping all 15/16 pieces of gear, its what i have been using since they introduced them, /macro has other interesting uses with some imagination.

problem is when servers start getting laggy, also sometimes i might over hit my macros which causes some trouble, but if your dead set on not using windower/stuck on console you can utilize this to optimize yourself a tad better than without.

if you intend to go this route, /macro set should be your first line as itll swap sets faster while still exicuting the whole macro, makes for less laggy extended in game macros.

I find that "/macro set X" is much less laggy on PC than it was on PS2. PS2, it took almost a full second for my macros to swap. Also, it was my impression that "/macro set X" ends whatever macro you were in, so you'd have to set it up:
/equip ___
/equip ___
/equip ___
/equip ___
/equip ___
/macro set 2

Instead of the other way around.

I used to do this for RDM/NIN tanking, and I'd set a loop so it was like:
/equip x5
/macro set 2

/ma "Dispel" <t>
/equip x4
/macro set 3

/equip x5
/macro set 1

Then I could spam twice, wait for the spell to land, spam again and be bumped back to the starting set. The major problem was the PS2 lag.

/macro set does not end a macro exicution, if it did none of my macros would function right, and to clarify they do function proper with /macro set as the first line.

While Windower does provide a few glossy features it is also doing things that the game doesn't normally allow. It is also a hook for bot scripts and other applications that do things that are not normally allowed, even Windower itself can be used to bot. It's why SE do not approve of it. If you use it then use it at your own discretion, but if you value your account I strongly advise not to use it.

Actually, unless I misunderstand the theory, Windower itself isn't the hook necessarily. It uses another program to grab the game variables and controls which variables are available for plugin developers to use and manipulate. For instance, no Windower plugin can flee hack because Windower doesn't allow plugins to directly change position.

Basically, if you hear about something that sounds exploitive, it's probably not a windower plugin. They might interface with the program that actually grabs the variables (the same one windower uses), but they aren't actually windower plugins.

actually, they are not OFFICIAL plug-ins. despite the disclaimer on the windower site it is a successful platform for interfacing with FFXI. You can write your own code to give the illegal exploits that are the worry for SE and simply daisy-chain them onto windower as your interface. Any halfway decent programmer that wants to do so can write their own exploitaitive code with relative ease and be right back to the days when you could use it to port anywhere, raise your movement speed and change jobs without the benefit of a moogle among other things. And seriously? If it takes a programmer more than 30 minutes to break windower security then even "halfway decent" doesn't describe them.

Do they need to use windower? no, of course not. But why take the time to write your own interface when there's already one that works? It even gets constant support. SE chooses to turn a blind eye to windower for the most part unless there is a blatant cheat (like those I mentioned above), but simply using it at all is a technical violation of the TOS (which has no qualifiers on their forbiding the use of 3rd party programs) simply because it IS a 3rd party program, and thus prohibitted.

I choose not to use it, playing the game as designed, both because I'd rather not risk being banned AND because the challenges built into the game are there for a reason--to make me strive. If I can always see other pt members TP so I never miss an SC attempt, or a burst for that matter some of the challenge is gone for me. If I can target a ??? before it's up so my trade macro is already primed--again, no challenge. I get what I want done based on the skill I've accumulated over my time on XI, I don't need a hand.

You sound like you don't know a darn thing about how Windower and bots work. That's really not surprising though, and I can't say I blame you. The sheer amount of misinformation and straight up falsehoods regarding the relationship between the two is astounding.

Can Windower be used for Botting? No.

Are people "Manipulating Windower" and "Breaking into Windower's security" to create bots? No.

Bots are completely independent applications that hook into running processes of FFXI. In fact, I do believe a vast majority of advanced Windower plugins were shut down or forced to be rewritten after the exploitable nature of FFACE.dll was made public. Because FFACE.dll (a file used in many advanced Windower plugins) could be used to facilitate botting and exploitable behavior, all plugins that used FFACE were required to be rewritten to function without it or simply were no longer allowed.

The Windower team is extremely anti-bot and anti-exploit. Nothing that even smells of bot gets into their approval section. If people want to run bots while they're running Windower, there's nothing they can do to stop them. But that damn sure doesn't mean people are using Windower to bot.

GG, I KNOW the current windower crew is anti-exploit, and I didn't say I blame them. What I said is that these type of exploits generally need an undetectable platform to be used (and I don't actually see them being used anymore by most), windower is proven (based on their being used/distributed off the windower site several years ago) to be functional for that purpose.

There are other platforms that can be used and for that matter if you can program a hack you SHOULD be able to make your own interface, but it's there. Just because it isn't done with the windower crew's efforts or support doesn't mean that it can't be used in ways that are not intended or sanctioned by the makers. For an exploit to work (on a sustained basis) it needs to get into the server without being detected so you do want to daisy-chain your exploit on to something that does get through without tripping an SE monitoring program, which windower apparently does.

But you also can't change the fact that simply using windower as-is is a technical violation of the 3rd-party prohibition and SE can use that to ban you just for that if they so choose. The grounds for banning isn't the exploit, it's the 3rd-party program use at all. SE simply chooses to turn a blind eye to it.

I doubt SE will ever ban for windower, is FAIR to point how everyone is tire of "PS2 Limitation" and windower kinda make the game a bit more interesting to play, survey say like 80% PPL on PC use it. You can be sure of something, if SE start ban for using that program, they #1 will loose tons of income #2 tons of people will just leave the game and never come back.

P.S: Is again the ToS of this forum to talk about 3rd party program, don't you find it special Admin/Moderator did not delete/lock thread? Trust me they know about it and have no real choice to take no action, but don't expect any of SE staff come here and say is no bannable etc, that would for sure insult everyone on Xbox and PS2/PS3. And that would go again they own rule.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

FFXI was dead until the release of Abyssea, though not because of the salvage bans.

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False. Very false.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

What I said is that these type of exploits generally need an undetectable platform to be used [..], windower is proven [..] to be functional for that purpose.

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And what are you basing those statements on?

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

There are other platforms that can be used and for that matter if you can program a hack you SHOULD be able to make your own interface, but it's there. Just because it isn't done with the windower crew's efforts or support doesn't mean that it can't be used in ways that are not intended or sanctioned by the makers.

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Actually, it does mean just that. If they don't want you to bot through it, they won't let you, which they don't. You seem to talk about hacking as if it's very easy (and I'm not even denying that), but you don't seem to know how exactly it works yourself.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

For an exploit to work (on a sustained basis) it needs to get into the server without being detected so you do want to daisy-chain your exploit on to something that does get through without tripping an SE monitoring program, which windower apparently does.

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Windower gets nowhere near the servers. People keep saying that like Windower is hacking SE to get the information they do. The truth is, everything Windower shows you is on your computer, and only there. The TP and MP of your party/alliance members is sent to you by SE's servers. They probably added that years ago because they planned to expand on that. That's how Windower accesses that information. Your position as well as your target's position are also in your memory, which is how Windower calculates the distance.

All movement is done completely client-side. There's a number in your computer's memory that represents your movement speed. If you increase that number, you move faster. You don't need Windower for that (and I don't even think you can edit that with Windower, but I never tried it, it might be). On the other hand, you can access (and edit) it with a lot of completely legal and free tools available. Editing your own computer's memory is not illegal after all. The tools to do this are completely legal. Only how you use them is wrong. Windower doesn't make it safer nor easier to accomplish this. SE has their own protection in place for movement related issues, server-side (your new position is automatically sent to the server, so they can effectively check how fast you're moving).

Also, Windower doesn't monitor your connection to get information about ???s sooner either. Windower doesn't know it's there until the server says so, which is also when you know it's there. It may be in your memory a few milliseconds before it's on the screen, but your connection speed is a way bigger influence on whether or not you get the claim than Windower could ever be.

Windower is definitely illegal, make no mistake about that. But don't make it out to be a magic tool to make your character invincible and able to cheat yourself relics to your Delivery Box, it's definitely not.

1. either you don't remember or choose to forget the windower from about the peak of the RMT days. There were continued rants about the bots and such through windower. Since I didn't want to simply bandwagon on the complaints I went and looked up what was available, both through the program and the plugins. Among others, you could change your job anywhere, set your movement speed faster (and slower, although who would), and pile bots for fishing and a few other activities, even auto-bidding at the AH. Although the plugins to do so are no longer distributed through the windower site (and the current guys actually police it to prevent that) as most were simply scripted they can still easily be done. However, they are VERY blatant and anyone trying to do so would be caught quickly by SE's monitoring.

2. Windower is a download. Once you've gotten it from them you can do as you wish with it-on your end. as long as you don't try to upload your cheat to the windower site the team doesn't have the ability to stop anything. The most they can do is modify the code in the next update to try to block whatever the cheat is doing--if they hear about it. However, since most of the cheats are simply a scripted action they probably wouldn't do much, so they don't interfere with their macro functions (also a script) which is one of the main reasons windower is used (huge gear changes, etc.). As this scripting function is the main appeal to using windower they would be unlikely to remove the function just to block a more blatant cheat.

3. Windower interfaces with the POL client to send whatever commands it's set to do, which is the actual server interface, it allows you to do things at speeds that a human generally cant do, and in some cases faster than your "latency" (I'm using the term loosely, accomodating rendering, reaction, typing speeds, send/receive, macro line limits, etc.) allow. So yes, windower does not directly interface with the servers, it interfaces with the interface is I guess a more technical explanation.

The main reason windower is a platform that allows a player to exploit is because it is MUCH more user friendly for inserting outside commands into the game. Certainly you can edit the game commands directly, but look at the number of continually updated files you have to redo or simply sift through? the game is HUGE, iirc it's actually larger than some of the GUI it can run on. Again, MOST of the exploits are simply scripts, and outside of the windowing function, scripting is what windower primarily does (technically script insertion, but same idea). And since SE doesn't actively enforce the 3rd-party ban against windower, if you run your script through it (instead of directly through POL or the like)there's a fair chance it won't get flagged, as the most effective way to catch anything would be to run a time-stamped activity log of an individual player's actions and compare it to benchmarks set at very high levels by someone known to be playing it straight, and if it exceeds that speed you know you are dealing with a 3rd party tool (or a meth addict whose typing skills are unaffected by jitters). This is alot more effort than any company would reasonably spend to investigate anything but a very blatant cheat (again, job changing in the field, teleporting without the benefit of a mage, etc.).

Note that I'm not saying it's being done still. In fact, most of the complaints of botting or auto-claiming are simply rants by players that aren't as focussed on the game as the "bot" (who is simply paying attention, not botting) and thus miss opportunities, in other words, whiners. But if you look at those threads, frequently someone will not only say that it is techincally possible, but a fair number of those posts even say how, and generally there is a reference to windower and possibly a specific plug-in in the explanation.

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Originally Posted by Jerynh

False. Very false.

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Which part because getting anyone to do anything worth a crap before abyssea was like pulling teeth and the whole 2009 we got nothing. How bout the 3 years it took to finish a crappy expansion that was a bunch of overly long CSs with a fight here and there, with you guessed it another freaking earring will meh stats. There not bad but really not great for amount of time we had to wait to get.

The salvage bans only removed the elitest crap that if they had made trick more widely know would have gotten a warning at worst, but since they were so few compared to the number of players at the time.

Really you can only kill kirin, ground kings, grinding salvage, limbus or dynamis so many times before you don't even give 2 flying @#$#s about the event anymore. So people got bored and left.

Yeah at this point in the game you really have to sit in port going on about how your using windower, even then you might get a temp ban for spam or a perma if its your last straw.

The FFXI Gods have spoken!
... I mean mods.

Greetings!

Thank you for your interest in our Rules & Policies! Please allow me to give a direct answer on this matter.

Third party software use is a violation of our Terms of Service. You can find the following information and more on our Knowledge Base on the Support Center website! Here is some information directly from KB article:12800

Definition
Usage of a 3rd party program is defined as usage of a program, made and distributed by an individual other then Square Enix, which impacts the game play in any way. Usage of any of these types of programs, regardless of if they give the player an unfair advantage over others or not, is strictly prohibited. The following are some examples of such prohibited activities:
- Use of a program or tool within any PlayOnline service that allows any actions to be performed automatically and continuously.
- Changing, combining, reverse engineering, or analyzing game data, as well as creating or distributing utility programs for such purposes.
- Use of any unofficial program to the benefit of any users.

* Please note that players who take advantage of in-game mechanics not intended as normal means of game play even without the use of unofficial programs may also face penalties such as account suspension. If you become aware of any such issue, please report it to a GM or the Special Task Force immediately.

Hopefully, this will provide you with an answer on our stance to any third party software use! If you need any additional information, please feel free to peruse our Knowledge Base here:
http://support.na.square-enix.com/main.php?id=20&la=1.

You may also reach the Special Task Force here:
http://support.na.square-enix.com/co...php?id=20&la=1.

At this time, I will now lock this thread as we have a nice, definitive answer.

Thank you for your understanding and apologies for any inconvenience!

-=Game Master Emdub=-