Why are we advertized as fighter-mages when White Mages can out-do us?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dale

Hyrist, are the same Red Mage that used to be on midgardsomr?

---

Dale? Is that really you!? Could have swore you quit for good man.

But yep, it's me! There's only one Hyrist! I moved to Odin a long while back, spend some time in Herberus but Odin seems to be where I settled for now. I've got friends kinda keeping me around here.

Lots has happened, shoot me a PM sometime.

Also, side-note. I just hit 22 consistent damage regardless of day/time so yeah that cap isn't there anymore Sword.

Ok. So the brainstorming has finally born some fruit by combining some ideas together from some of our recent updates.

Ability name:
Prise de Fer
[definition](French : Literally take the steel); also “Taking the Blade”; an engagement of the blades that attempts to control the opponent's weapon. See also beat, press, expulsion, bind, croisé, envelopment, opposition, transfer.
Alternate Names: Duelist, Opposition.

JA 'Stance' type:

Increases Enhancement Spell damage and inflicts: 'Hesitation' upon enemy while striking with an enspell active.

Hesitation (Status effect): Hesitation is a stacking status effect that reduces monster TP gain from both normal attacks an incoming attacks. Additionally, when a Monster Uses a "TP Attack" Hesitation adds a delay to the TP attack's usage based on how many stacks of the status is on the target. Hesitation wears off in 20 seconds or when the target uses a TP attack. Duration is refreshed if struck by a Red Mage under the effect of Prise de Fer.

-----------------------------------------------------

I'm keeping the actual raw numbers of this flexible, as I'm unsure as to what DEGREE of this would be deemed most acceptable.

As far as Prise de Fer's Enspell damage increase, I'd say 'doubles' but comes at the cost of loss of something on our mage side. Not certain what, however, maybe magical attack. Trade off our nuke numbers for enspell numbers.

With Hesitation, at absolute maximum I'd like to think that the status effect can stack anywhere between 5-10 times, and that each stack adds 1-.5 seconds to a TP move, per. Meaning, on top of a TP gain reduction (which I would say on the level of Auspice for gain reduction.) a fully stacked Hesitation would had a flat 5 seconds to the enemy TP attack delay. Again, at maximum. It would still be incredibly useful, especially in situations that the tank was crit right before the monster readies a TP move, and gives other players the chance to swap on their defense gears or run out of range.

And the fact that some mobs flatly spam TP moves regardless keeps this move from becoming broken, as the stacks would wear off each time the enemy uses a TP move.

Adding a delay to a monsters TP attack just seems to be asking for stun abuse though. It had the potential to make what used to be nightmarish fights into complete jokes.

... and?

This has happened progressively as new levels and abilities came into the works anyways. This would be no different.

Besides, push comes to shove, have some mobs resistant or flat out immune, like every other debuff in existance. NM's only get a 2.5 second delay or some such. (Or just be immune to stun, like a lot of NMs are.)

Besides, you've already got CSS, Stun rotations, Alexander rotations and all the other would be abuses in this game that are far more dangerous.

This one is easily adjusted for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

Besides, push comes to shove, have some mobs resistant or flat out immune

---

This is mostly what I'm worried about. What's the point in adding this super awesome buff if they are just going to make everything worthwhile immune to it.

I'm not saying that this isn't impossible to add, but this is just one of those things that would need to be looked at very carefully first.

I think that is a fair assumption of any ability, however.

Something that can just be implemented as is would likely be too minor of a change to make any impact on the job, or the stigma surrounding it.

While this can be something that specific NMS (think end bosses) could be resistant or in rare cases, immune. I think the majority of the foes, from fodder up until 'tier 2/3' nms should still be able to have this benefit in some way shape or form.

Nor do I think this is the only change that should happen to RDM. But having double enspell damage would make the ability useful against fodder, even if it is on Enspell IIs (Which would double the totals at the end of the calculation not the beginning.) And the effect of Hesitation would be useful against the more tricky enemies.

On top of this, if it was implemented as is, I'd see EX weapon skills freed up, more accessible haste gear, and further improvements on the gear we do have available.

And for Altana's sake, fix Enspell II calculations!

Eh, adding 1s to ready timers without any convoluted building system would be enough. It'd take a sting out of a lot of the instant moves with attentive stunners, while the direct TP manipulation should at least offset the RDM's presence so there's a net gain of damage and utility. No need to introduce immunities, as it just shoehorns the concept away. I'd be okay with converting MATK gained from the traits to Enspell damage, as it'd also leave the back-liners with a bit of an edge while we'd still have the option to MB or free nuke if we chose to. Whether the MATK conversion is 1:1, I dunno. Hell, I wouldn't even mind a STP element to it so we could feasibly drop DB more often, though DB's utility angle still needs some work of its own.

Quote:

---

Eh, adding 1s to ready timers without any convoluted building system would be enough. It'd take a sting out of a lot of the instant moves with attentive stunners, while the direct TP manipulation should at least offset the RDM's presence so there's a net gain of damage and utility.

---

Adding 1 second or less to the timer makes the ability's utility moot on anything that builds stun resistance quickly or is flat out stun immune. The building mechanic for increase potency is a carrot to keep the RDM there, especially in cases in which a Mob's attack could potentially 1, shot the tank. I'd say bare minimum, 1.5 seconds, if not 2.

As far as the TP manipulation mechanic, RDM meleeing alone would not be enough to offset the RDM meleeing. But the more who were meleeing, the more it would be offset (flat rate per person.)

Though, you bring up an interesting thing, a flat rate loss of M.Attack for a flat gain in Enspell damage. 1 MAtk lost, 1 bonus enspell damage. Problem is, when that gets to be +20 enspell damage, just how much have we lost from our nukes? I'd rather let the developers mull over the conversion rate on that one.

As far as DB's utility... honestly, there's nothing wrong there, if you see it's purpose being a near-universal opener. Maybe change TP mod to crit chance and give that Status Effect a flat rate of landing. But beyond that there's not much you can do to that WS.

Quote:

---

It's more referring to the fact that they made the job trait "Fencer" and distinctly refused to give it to us.

---

Fencer isn't that overly good anyway. The amount of DoT we lose from droping a multihit (or DA weapon in abby) is way more than what fencer gives. Since it requires to be single wielded it is inferior. If we are single wielding we would likely be /WAR as the only practical reason to SW is /WAR in aby for access to EX Sword Club Staff procs anyway.

(or as /BLU in melee blood solo's which is slower, yet more fun than /nin melee blink solos).

As far as the WHM vs RDM thing, WHM is at the moment better equipped to DD then us because they have Clubs that are proportionate to level, where as RDM missed on all the magian daggers, and currently must have a Twilight Knife to see the best results. (or CDC but lets avoid using that as a basis requirement.) Outside of abyssea where RDM can get access to its Enspells for maximum effect (yes in abby they are still maximum but drop from like 20% of total damage to <5%). Enspells 1 can be pushed to 35 relatively easy and with enhancing magic sky rocketing over the last 15 levels, and the ability to dump 8/8 to enhancing merits as well the ACC holds pretty steady around 85-90%. That is a lot of extra damage when you consider the possibility of nearly 3 attacks /round essetially its a full time berserk (that does not apply on WS unfortunately).

RDM outside of abyssea is pretty solid DD when geared right, inside of abyssea its melee issues are just another factor in the laundry list of problems with the job and the unfriendly relationship it has with abyssea.

Quote:

---

RDM outside of abyssea is pretty solid DD when geared right, inside of abyssea its melee issues are just another factor in the laundry list of problems with the job and the unfriendly relationship it has with abyssea.

---

Yes and No. It all depends on whether you're considering the maximum potentials of jobs (something most people will never reach) and the company you actually tend to keep in pickup EXP groups (the NBs of the world...I'll leave it to you readers to figure out who NB is). As much of a blessing it is for parties to have become more inclusive, it is also kind of a pity an entire alliance of 18 people can be carried by perhaps 3 or 4 skilled players.

RDM actually did get kind of lucky with the way Atmas ended up favoring critical hit weaponskills because RDM does get access to 2 very good ones (Evisceration and Chant du Cygne). It just, unfortunately, requires more annoying gear to get than your standard damage dealer's weapons. But who knows? Some people might actually get lucky. I got Twilight Knife on my 3rd time solo brewing Shinryu.

Almost anybody can be an MVP in Abyssea. In a way, your accomplishments in Abyssea are more important than what your actual job is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mageoholic

Enspells 1 can be pushed to 35 relatively easy

---

...maybe with a Fencing Ring and a Chimariac Fleuret

I dunno doing 80-85% of a top tier DD's damage, while increasing that damage by 35% or so (17% via Dia III, and 15% haste) is pretty badass, if you bogarted that stuff to yourself that gap closes even more.

Quote:

---

I dunno doing 80-85% of a top tier DD's damage, while increasing that damage by 35% or so (17% via Dia III, and 15% haste) is pretty badass, if you bogarted that stuff to yourself that gap closes even more.

---

That doesn't really count because you can be casting Haste on those DDs and Dia is aiding everybody who is swinging at the mob, not just you. What you're describing is a scenario where everybody is on their own with no outside support. And, most of the time, that situation doesn't exist in the game.

Quote:

---

...maybe with a Fencing Ring and a Chimeric Fleuret

---

I, for one, think Chimeri Fleuret is a pretty solid subhand weapon if you want to go for strong hits over more swings.

All the more reason I go back to the whole "mixed messages" stuff. They clearly know what kind of gear you need to be a serviceable frontline damage dealer. They just don't want to give it to you.

I'd be very surprised if outside of abyssea Rdm still does 80% of a DDs damage like we did at 75. Other DDs have had HUGE increases to their performance while comparatively we've pretty much stayed the same since 75 with the only real significant increase being CDC, but even then once the abyssites and atma are stripped away our lack Str, Dex, and attack on our WS gear compared to other jobs starts to show quite a bit.

Every (1 handed DD) loses that though, unless you have Crit attack bonus/Skillchian Bonus/Impetus/Blood Rage (war only and why is it dualwielding?) going for you. Oh and obviously the usual better gear/traits/JA than Rdm.

Yeah, but unlike most DDs I don't go from capping the Str-Vit function to barely breaking 0.

I mean AF3, Twilight, and Eponas for most DD jobs just brought a whole new level of retarded.

Aside from Epona's/Belt, TP/WS Head Option and TP/WS Body Option (alcide's is slightly better but if you need attack Tarasque+1/Rager Ledelsens isn't too far behind) Rdm Tp set isn't that much different from Blu aside from whether you're capping haste/using ACP body with DW/Blu has Mextli harness.

It's really the ability to set DA/attack bonus/go /war and still have DW (assuming you benefit from Zerk and Aggressor) and Self SC in addition to the above that has them ahead. DNC has more DD oriented traits (justifiable, they need TP for abilities), Thf can force crit on weaponskills/more dual wield/stats depending on gear (Dnc can do the same now), Bst/Pup are pet jobs.

EDIT: Not getting Twilight Belt was annoying to say the least with next best belt being N sash.

Okay. I normally don't reply to stupid things: but this in particular piqued my interest;
The melee WHM revolution started in the 75's era, about 4~ years ago, when sea robber and sea wolf cugdels came out, then with the addition of the morganstern, whm became a formidable soloist with Hexa strike + Stoneskin, and /nin. I remember a few of my whm friends going after the Reverend Mail from Shen, because they wanted more solo capabilities.
NOW; this brings me to my next point; ANY job in this game can be broken, if done properly. RDM in particular could easily be made into a front line job if executed properly, in both gear, and mindset. If you want to DD in abbysea, then get yourself some crit gear, (off the top of my head; Pln. Khazaghand, Heart Snatcher) RR SS GH atmas, and go eviscerate the crap out of something.
An example of ingenuity: (Circa 6 years ago~) I recall a RED MAGE I used to fight in ballista, came to matches as RDM/RNG, i thought "wow, this guy is touched in the head", then he busts out his Kclub, hastes himself, and starts going to town, clubbing and sidewinder'ing people into little bits. /w stoneskin and cure, he was nearly impossible to take down, before he'd allready slaughtered you with repeated sidewinders.

Its not that you CAN'T do it, its that you haven't found the way TO do it.

It seems to be more the desire to melee stronger mobs imo, if you don't care to you don't really find anything wrong with Rdm melee. Buffs to it would be nice but I hardly see it as a pressing issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

It seems to be more the desire to melee stronger mobs imo, if you don't care to you don't really find anything wrong with Rdm melee. Buffs to it would be nice but I hardly see it as a pressing issue.

---

RDM melee capabilities are absolutely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, and it should never be the job's focus.

If the developers want to throw a bone to RDM's melee capacity from time to time, that's cool. I consider fighting on RDM a fun hobby on the side. The people I know who take meleeing seriously do it well since, instead of whining about Fencer and EX weaponskills on forums, they went out and completed Almaces and impressive TP/Weaponskill sets. They'd appreciate a little buff to RDM's melee capacity. But when it comes time to play as a mage, they play as a mage. And they're damned good.

FFXI has too damn many melees already, and RDM should never be retooled to join that crowd. It'd simply fade into irrelevance like the other weaker DDs. RDM is an exceptionally strong mage and it needs to remain on a mage-centric line of development.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eeek

FFXI has too damn many melees already, and RDM should never be retooled to join that crowd. It'd simply fade into irrelevance like the other weaker DDs. RDM is an exceptionally strong mage and it needs to remain on a mage-centric line of development.

---

I find this statement to be slightly amusing, and confusing at the same time.

You are aware that in the initial design of this game, it was assumed on the part of the developers that all classes would be meleeing, yes?

This is of course back in the game's infancy before the MMO conventions piratically took over the game. But I just find it amusing that someone can say 'there's too much melee!' Given the history, and the simple fact that Melee itself, the act of actively participating in combat, is one of the game's alluring elements.

I'm really not sure what you're basis for 'too much' is, honestly. However, I'm more than in agreement that simply moving to the front lines for damage contribution should not be the sole thing on a Red Mage's mind. This is why I seriously would like a utility for the front line instead of a damage boost. RDM's pushed the damage envelope before, it convinced no one.

It either resulted in the 'you're skewing yer parse!' , 'yer deedees sux!' or 'Yer a mage! Get in da bak linz!' Spats. After so many years I've grown rather bitter and jaded towards people who act that way.

I'd rather RDM be thrown a bone that could be used as a utility in a wider array of situations than monsters that die in 30 seconds or less with a strong DD group.

I just want to throw out my two cents and say.. The day the finally knocked RDM down a few pegs I was ecstatic. Seeing RDM/NIN destroy everything in the game with ease was a joke. There is no reason for that class, alone, to be next to god when it comes to killing things.

Quote:

---

I just want to throw out my two cents and say.. The day the finally knocked RDM down a few pegs I was ecstatic. Seeing RDM/NIN destroy everything in the game with ease was a joke. There is no reason for that class, alone, to be next to god when it comes to killing things.

---

Kind of a bias viewpoint, don't you think?

RDM wasn't the only job destroying things, and honestly, the only thing that changed in that departement is now EVERYTHING destorys things.

Ok, who cares? It took HOURS for Red Mage to be able to do what it did back then, and honestly, it could have been easily fixed by preventing Gravity and Bind from working the way it did.

The only department that RDM was taken down a peg, was hate, which all that did was pin the opportunity to tank on 2 jobs until Abyssea came out. (Dancer has picked up a bit in that department now, which makes me a touch happier.) Honestly I believe that was the wrong stance to take as the game could use more tanks, not fewer. No idea how many viable tanks there are for Voidwatch, which really is the only thing that still fits into the old HNM style play currently.

Oh, and we're falling behind in cures too, but that has absolutely nothing to do with our solo game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

I find this statement to be slightly amusing, and confusing at the same time.

---

Of course you find it confusing. RDM is actually a damn good mage when adequately geared and played as a mage, but I suspect all the doom and gloom over RDM's capabilities and future arise from people who can't capably handle the job. I can't say I'm surprised either - I've yet to see a pickup RDM play the job at a passable level.

So ... the answer is to retool RDM into a front-line melee? I'd hate to see such a valuable job decimated and transformed into a Mog House champion alongside the likes of PUP and DRK (and I guarantee you DNC will be right there again once the Abyssea age ends). I'm passionate about THF but I'm well aware that SE hasn't the slightest clue what to do with it and that THF will always be wanted only for TH. THFs like me will push the job to suck as little as possible, but at the end of the day, it still sucks as a DD.

RDM has never pushed the damage envelope and cannot push the damage envelope. That's why you melee RDMs are such an easy target - the vast majority of you endlessly cite decades-old lore in an ever-changing game series, confuse equipment naming conventions as sworn blood-oaths with the melee gods, and lack the cognitive abilities to astutely analyze the state of RDM affairs and somehow believe, if you wish really really hard, that RDM will suddenly strut onto the scene as a top-tier DD.

It'll never happen. It should never happen. Melee RDMs are the WAR/WHMs of old who tried to fool the world into thinking they were just like PLDs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

It either resulted in the 'you're skewing yer parse!' , 'yer deedees sux!' or 'Yer a mage! Get in da bak linz!' Spats. After so many years I've grown rather bitter and jaded towards people who act that way.

---

"Hey, join the f**king club! I thought I was going to be the starting center fielder for the Boston Red Sox! Life sucks, get a f**king helmet!"

-Denis Leary

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eeek

So ... the answer is to retool RDM into a front-line melee? I'd hate to see such a valuable job decimated and transformed into a Mog House champion alongside the likes of PUP and DRK (and I guarantee you DNC will be right there again once the Abyssea age ends).

---

Valuable? On what level? Spam refresh/cures/haste level? Or more along the lolenfeebles level?

What we've been looking to do is fix an error in implementation that has been allowed to run amock for god knows how many years. Yes, we know you don't care because to you RDM is a cure/haste/refresh bot with a bit of mezzer mixed in an attempt to make the job seem less trite (while failing to do so, might I add).

Quote:

---

I'm passionate about THF but I'm well aware that SE hasn't the slightest clue what to do with it and that THF will always be wanted only for TH. THFs like me will push the job to suck as little as possible, but at the end of the day, it still sucks as a DD.

---

Then make a thread about THF. No one here would stop you from doing so. Hell, I'm very likely to support a thread about THF with discussions on how to make it more than just TH. I know their plight, and would wholeheartedly support discussions on improving their situation. I feel the same way about the guys that want to DD on NIN instead of burn gil away spamming Utsusemi.

Quote:

---

RDM has never pushed the damage envelope and cannot push the damage envelope.

---

State a reason other than the asinine and debunked "no one would play any other job" or "all RDMs would melee only and no one would cover the back line", please.

Quote:

---

That's why you melee RDMs are such an easy target - the vast majority of you endlessly cite decades-old lore in an ever-changing game series

---

That while ever-changing, remain constant in presentation of the jobs. The only real job that ever strayed was, surprise surprise, Paladins. You can thank Agrias Oaks for that one.

Quote:

---

confuse equipment naming conventions as sworn blood-oaths with the melee gods

---

Name and title lend credence to purpose. RDM is proclaimed and sold as a magic fencer, yet is anything but. Why would anyone be surprised to see a collective of people having a problem with this?

Quote:

---

and lack the cognitive abilities to astutely analyze the state of RDM affairs and somehow believe, if you wish really really hard, that RDM will suddenly strut onto the scene as a top-tier DD.

---

If by "RDM affairs" you meant "well, guys, we don't get insta-invites anymore just for having refresh. We'z in trubble!!", we've been aware of that for a while. We also followed the sequels, "spam nukes thanks to all that +MAB in our AF3 set and infinite MP", "well damn, WHMs are wiping the floor with us in heals!", and the latest addition, "After 90 levels of refresh-botting, enter Almace: the Equalizer!". I even have the sidestory "Even being inferior in heals, people still invite RDMs to heal groups because old habits die hard" on VHS.

I'm guessing in your eyes the proper action would be to put up and shut up? Can you blame the melee camp for getting sick of seeing their favorite job being treated like that?

In recent Abyssea exp parties, I see THF tanking (they never pull), PLD pulling (they can't hold hate), and WHM DDing (even their offensive magic get some use). It seems like the old roles of everything are being flipped upside down, why not RDM too? Come to think of it, I haven't seen very many RDMs these days....

Apparently, SE agrees with my assessment of RDM's mages side, seeming they're going to work to adjust HNM (in)vulnerability to many status effects.

Quote:

---

We want to see red mages play a more vital role in HNM battles by making enfeebling magic more effective against high-level notorious monsters and their legendary levels of resistance as well as allowing them to better contribute to party member enhancement.

---

For HNMs, this is what I want to see. Honestly, if Bravery is a single target party member buff we can use, and Quick cast is sufficient enough to cut some of the tedium out of cycles. Then this paired with the better enfeebling mechanics and new enfeebles, than this will make me feel better about that situation.

Again, that does not address the other problem.

As far as people who like to make assumptions about me, whatever. They're only paying half attention to begin with. Why would I care what they think when more than half the time we're in agreement and the other times it doesn't effect THEIR gameplay one bit?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeez

In recent Abyssea exp parties, I see THF tanking (they never pull), PLD pulling (they can't hold hate), and WHM DDing (even their offensive magic get some use). It seems like the old roles of everything are being flipped upside down, why not RDM too? Come to think of it, I haven't seen very many RDMs these days....

---

Pickup RDMs are absolutely worthless and shouldn't be invited to anything aside from exp alliances. The RDMs I do see in Abyssea are generally people I know and who handle the job well. Personally, my RDM gets a lot of use as well. Every server's Port Jeuno brigade will swear up and down that I'm wrong, but WHM's upper-echelon healing capacity isn't always required. RDM, while not ideal 100% of the time, works well in lots of situations in Abyssea.

I love my THF to death, but I'm a realist. My THF and my DNC will cease to be capable DDs once the Abyssea age ends. In the 75 days, my THF commonly parsed among the top DDs in easier events like Dynamis and Salvage, but I attribute that to poor competition rather than THF's DD prowess. A properly geared and played DD like WAR or SAM should out-damage a THF in event settings. I always hate admitting that, but it's simply reality.

I like where SE is taking RDM according to the roadmap they posted today. It's asinine that the highest-level NMs often rendered RDM's enfeebling talents useless, and I'm glad that SE might fix that. I'm hoping the new enfeebles will be more along the lines of Paralyze II and Slow II (in terms of usefulness, not necessarily function) and not like Break (which is just another Bind, really). Also, Quick Magic might be interesting if it can be cast on party members.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eeek

Pickup RDMs are absolutely worthless and shouldn't be invited to anything aside from exp alliances. The RDMs I do see in Abyssea are generally people I know and who handle the job well. Personally, my RDM gets a lot of use as well. Every server's Port Jeuno brigade will swear up and down that I'm wrong, but WHM's upper-echelon healing capacity isn't always required. RDM, while not ideal 100% of the time, works well in lots of situations in Abyssea.

I love my THF to death, but I'm a realist. My THF and my DNC will cease to be capable DDs once the Abyssea age ends. In the 75 days, my THF commonly parsed among the top DDs in easier events like Dynamis and Salvage, but I attribute that to poor competition rather than THF's DD prowess. A properly geared and played DD like WAR or SAM should out-damage a THF in event settings. I always hate admitting that, but it's simply reality.

I like where SE is taking RDM according to the roadmap they posted today. It's asinine that the highest-level NMs often rendered RDM's enfeebling talents useless, and I'm glad that SE might fix that. I'm hoping the new enfeebles will be more along the lines of Paralyze II and Slow II (in terms of usefulness, not necessarily function) and not like Break (which is just another Bind, really). Also, Quick Magic might be interesting if it can be cast on party members.

---

We agree with Abyssea. This goes doubly if you are often group with other hybrids, such as Dancer. RDM's usefulness in Abyssea is small compared to other more specialized jobs, but it can be a helpful addition.

Quick Magic seems to be a JA ability, primarily, and has been discussed up and down on the boards. The only thing that would make it good is if it is a controlled job ability on a sizable smaller recast time than your typical 5 minute ordeal.

I'm glad enfeebling will be getting it's long-overdue adjustments. It's been a thorn in Red Mage's collective sides for far too long.

But I hope our buffing side isn't being neglected either. Haste and Refresh does not turn someone into a 'demigod'. They're both really nice buffs, granted, but without further support spells to share, I don't think SE's vision matches the reality here. Again, most of our buff spells are self only.

I'd like to see some more development along this vein. I'm not opposed to sharing buffs in situations that call me to the back lines, in fact I wish I had more of them and could distribute the more easily. Quick cast could do that for us if it's frequent enough, so there shouldn't be an issue to widen our variety in buffs a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyrist

I'd like to see some more development along this vein. I'm not opposed to sharing buffs in situations that call me to the back lines, in fact I wish I had more of them and could distribute the more easily. Quick cast could do that for us if it's frequent enough, so there shouldn't be an issue to widen our variety in buffs a bit.

---

You don't have any experience using celerity to keep up a Haste cycle do you? All it does is make the cycle asymmetric and force you to keep burning the JA during every cycle at the same time. A quick magic JA isn't going to really do anything to ease the buff cycle situation. At best it'll be useful for throwing out a timely nuke or a raise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cidbahamut

You don't have any experience using celerity to keep up a Haste cycle do you? All it does is make the cycle asymmetric and force you to keep burning the JA during every cycle at the same time. A quick magic JA isn't going to really do anything to ease the buff cycle situation. At best it'll be useful for throwing out a timely nuke or a raise.

---

No I use Celerity for Refresh or larger casts, there's no reason to use it for haste.

But the difference between Celerity and Quick cast is shortened recast vs no recast. You're essentially pairing two casts of it together. Which isn't asymmetrical if you split it between 2 functions, depending if the recast on Quick cast is sort enough (about a minute max would be the only fair, but I'm hoping for 30 seconds.) In which case, dedicating Quick cast to that function wouldn't be bad. At least then it gets more mileage out of it than simply throwing out a quick nuke or raise.

You don't seem to understand what I'm getting at. Once the cycle is established you're tied to it and celerity/quick-magic isn't actually helping you. Sooner or later you'll find yourself with the JA down and waiting on a spell's recast timer so you aren't actually speeding up the distribution by eliminating the need to wait on the spell's recast timer unless you burn the JA on it every cycle, restricting other things you might be accomplishing with the JA. Cycles will be the same problem forever, and a quick-magic style JA doesn't resolve it. The only real resolution is to AoE them via Accession, but SE doesn't seem to want us doing that much. So yeah, Quick Magic is will not be our salvation from cycling single-target buffs.

No what you don't seem to get is that quick magic would reduce both the control burden and the casting time of these cycles, freeing up time for other tasks. In this case, you ARE speeding up distribution in direct relation to time taken to do the cycle.

Does it mean you'll get to stop cycling spells? Hell no. But if you haven't gotten used to the mechanic by now, feel free to quit the job over it.

There's only one way to truncate a cycle mechanic: AoE. What Quick magic does for us, is alleviate some of determent that cycle mechanic does for us, IE, it's all we do because we're stuck in casting time.

Think of it this way. If a good chunk of the spells we had to cycle took about to cast individually as an elemental barspell, would it really be that tedious? No, because then it becomes more of an afterthought to maintain in the background of other things you're doing, like meleeing, debuffing, nuking and curing.

As far as waiting on the spell timer with JA down? Split your buffs into pairs based on the JA timer and you're golden.

Only issue with this would be if the timer was 5 minutes, in which case it would pretty much be a useless skill. But it's a 1 minute timer, it will cut down the aggravation of cycling buff's quite nicely.

As far as 'other things you might accomplish with the JA' What? A double MB? Now you're just getting into situational arguments, and entirely dependent on what you're there to do. What you're arguing about that long endurance cycle buffing that gets horrendously tedious... when was the last time you were in anything that long? The duration of our buffs with the correct gear on others gets highly extended. So between casting them quickly and having them last longer, the old 05 argument of "OMG I HAVE TO CAST A SPELL OVER AGAIN!" doesn't have the steam it used to, and we've no idea what gear may further that in the future.

I mean for things like BC fights and events, when your nuking/curing matters, sure, save the JA. But otherwise, what else are you going to use it on consistently?

I just don't think it's the miracle fix you so desperately want to believe it is.

You go ahead and burn it on cycling to little effect. I'll be over here sneaking in instant Blizzard IVs so I don't get caught with my pants down when someone needs an emergency cure bomb.

I HIGHLY doubt the ability will have a recast of less then 3 mins.

Quote:

---

You go ahead and burn it on cycling to little effect. I'll be over here sneaking in instant Blizzard IVs so I don't get caught with my pants down when someone needs an emergency cure bomb.

---

Really, the timing is beyond negligible. Your insta-nuking might have a better argument, except that when you're cycling a full regimen of buffs, you likely are not in the position to desire to nuke except maybe to blow MP before you vert.

Better to put the ability to a consistent use than to sit on it wasting your timer. Same could be said for convert, no?

Haste or Refresh will always last a set time. Seriously, using a Quick ability to save yourself 2-3 seconds is not the wisest of choices and a partial testament to the overall worthlessness of the idea in general. If it's down when the cycle renews, you'll wind up leaving someone without their buff for 10s or so, and that'll stutter to everyone later on the list. Barring abnormalities like Dispels or overwriting Slows, you don't want to mess up that rhythm.

Now, if it were 10-15s of mini-chainspell, then it might hold some greater utility, but as a one-shot ability, it's rather meh and at best a nuking supplement.

In another thread, I said that I would vote 100% toward making our buffs self-target only and giving Scholar and White Mage the party-friendly versions. That way Red Mage can focus on using its buffs on itself, and have greater strength in enfeebling magic and sword skill. It would turn us into better Saboteurs, and then we'd have a better-defined role.

Why when our buffs are single target only in the first place.. Self target only is a horrible idea. If you actually mean self target only and not single target only.

Each side has it's quips, but I think we all agree we'd like to see some reduction in our spell payload. If nothing else to free up a moment to rest, cure, or whatever else and not pull out our hair every time someone needs something while were mid-casting something else.