Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Thing is, it's not a minimal addition, relative to what you could have done before. Mr. Spreadsheet said like 30 pages ago that the player is doing more damage than the summon (which, as an aside, is a serious indicator of a problem with the avatar's BP capabilities)

The risk of death is a problem that affects anyone else who melees. Of course, I do have the galka HP advantage, and it's much more dangerous for the taru SMN.

---

Inside Abyssea, the overall risk is limited by the increased player HP and overall damage (higher STR, higher DEX, higher DA rate, etc) plus, the avatar can use the atmas also.

Outside Abyssea, kindof can't melee anything worthwhile, will wiff too much and can't keep avatar out for long. Also, too many things do over 1k damage to players in AoE range.

Quote:

---

Outside Abyssea, kindof can't melee anything worthwhile, will wiff too much and can't keep avatar out for long

---

Not really true at all, but whatever. Even if you wiff 50% you can still keep avatar out forever- If you're not using a max TP set, you won't be losing as much MP. If you are using a max TP set, you're not going to wiff that much.

Anything you can't melee without a high risk of death (and the only risk is highly damaging AoEs- your avatar will always have hate if you're not stupid) you can still kill the old fashioned way. Which is why I treat this as an extension of SMN's capabilities, not a used-all-the-time continuous upgrade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Not really true at all, but whatever. Even if you wiff 50% you can still keep avatar out forever- If you're not using a max TP set, you won't be losing as much MP. If you are using a max TP set, you're not going to wiff that much.

---

I don't know, I'm not totally convinced. I mean, on anything important, it is kindof tough to cap accuracy for even for a DD,maybe not so much now since the level gap has lowered and people have more combat skills to compensate, but there is still a big difference between A+ skill and B skill.

The "ideal" TP set for SMN is still lower than an A- naked skill, and you still need accuracy with A- skill (including food).

Quote:

---

and you still need accuracy with A- skill

---

If you're fighting THF or NIN mobs, yes. Most other mobs, no you don't need much if any accuracy.

People thought the distance between each skill rank was going to widen, and SE ended up keeping them parallel.

I'll be blunt and honest; I don't care if you don't buy what I'm doing. I've been making use of it for a while now, meleeing when I feel I can do it without dying, and not meleeing when I don't. It helps me whenever I can take advantage of it. When I can't, its just normal SMN for the win. Why can't you just accept that and move on?

The Archon Cape would only work in Dynamis/weather support, Bellicose Mantle (att+6) outside?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sparthos

The Archon Cape would only work in Dynamis/weather support, Bellicose Mantle (att+6) outside?

---

I was thinking about that too. and before the relic armor came out for The New Jobs, bellicose was what PUP was stuck with :p

Funny the Zilant Ring would be the hardest thing to get in that ideal TP setup by a wide margin.

Byrth gave me a funny though, putting it down. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Haste+22%
Acc+24
Att+28

Is that really the best TP set for SMN?

---

It's the best that I can find. The melee options SMN gets are pitiful.

Also, Subbing Dragoon isn't really an option. Hasso is 10% Haste, 5?STR, and 10 Acc, while /DRG is 5% Haste and 10 Acc. You end up with worse stats when you sub Dragoon, even if it lets you cap gear Haste.

I didn't notice the weather latent on the cape. You could switch it to Aesir Mantle, I guess. Also, Sword Strap is probably better than Pole for Summoner.

I think it's worth mentioning how difficult it is to get nashira/ninurta's sash now days.

The only people doing Ultima (which iirc takes minimum of 2 weeks to solo the popset) are doing it for atma probably, so very few.

Ninurta's Sash is AV, which is much more possible, but still hard to some extent (finding people who are actually interested in 1 piece of gear that's actually good and 2 pieces which are completely niche, not 100%, and needs new popsets everytime).

If you have Emp staff, you are probably a product of Abyssea (most of your gear anyways) so I don't see many players getting that setup ever. I'd put money on the fact that Dallas has nothing close to that.

Edit: Zilant ring is also next to impossible, but I assume that +6 DEX aug'd with attack+3~5 would suffice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I already pointed out you could sub DRG and cap haste (and also get acc bonus trait). In fact, that earring gives enough haste that you could replace one of those 1% haste items with something else.

I'm thinking you might also be able to do better with some augmented items.

---

Why on earth would you sub drg?

Well, at least it shows how versed you are in the art of melee

Edit: Beaten

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

Best SMN TP set?: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/220183

Your WS set is irrelevant, because it does 0 damage anyway.

---

Add-on pants can be +7 accuracy, 3% Haste. You could have potentially constructed 80% of this set by reading the melee WHM thread on BG. Congratulations on taking the few minutes I take every update to make sure I stay at the top of my very limited selection of game.

Ninurta's is unrealistic, but the same haste can be achieved with Tern's set, at the expense of a few accuracy. I'm missing the Nash feet.

I will go a step further to explain this setup now kills SMN when soloing, thus breaking the job in the only activity that pet jobs thrive at. I've permanently replaced everything but Haste gear with -enmity gear until SE fixes avatars to generate more hate than a competent melee SMN generates. My campaign to fix SMN is no business of yours though, so keep walking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You do have a WS set for it: Whatever has the most MP in any given slot. The WS mod is max MP. Higher max MP = more total MP gained.

---

Absolutely correct, but no one seems to care about mp here.

Oh, and psst, Aesir also comes in Mantle form. There's also a thing known as Peacock Charm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Why on earth would you sub drg?

Well, at least it shows how versed you are in the art of melee

Edit: Beaten

---

I didn't say I would sub DRG. I was only pointing out the fact that you technically can cap haste.

Quote:

---

Well, at least it shows how versed you are in the art of melee

---

It shows nothing. I'm well versed in the art of melee. and again, I didn't say I would use it (and my DRG is like level 10)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I didn't say I would sub DRG. I was only pointing out the fact that you technically can cap haste.

It shows nothing. I'm well versed in the art of melee. and again, I didn't say I would use it (and my DRG is like level 10)

---

If it's not something you'd do, what's the point in even mentioning it. I don't see why anyone would mention something that's nowhere near viable as their argument for "oh hey we can cap haste.... but it's under conditions you shouldn't be doing". Either straw manning or just like to argue over nothing, or possibly both.

Quote:

---

There's also a thing known as Peacock Charm.

---

Since when did 4 acc become better than 5% critical hit rate?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

Add-on pants can be +7 accuracy, 3% Haste. You could have potentially constructed 80% of this set by reading the melee WHM thread on BG. Congratulations on taking the few minutes I take every update to make sure I stay at the top of my very limited selection of game.

Ninurta's is unrealistic, but the same haste can be achieved with Tern's set, at the expense of a few accuracy. I'm missing the Nash feet.

I will go a step further to explain this setup now kills SMN when soloing, thus breaking the job in the only activity that pet jobs thrive at. I've permanently replaced everything but Haste gear with -enmity gear until SE fixes avatars to generate more hate than a competent melee SMN generates. My campaign to fix SMN is no business of yours though, so keep walking.

---

I constructed 100% of the set by going to ffxiah and using Advanced Search with "SMN" specified. Haha, you probably wish that you had half the options WHM/NIN has for gear.

No one does consider MP here, because we're assuming (in your favor) that it's a non-issue. You're the job that relies on MP for damage, not your competitors.

Augmented ASA pants are an improvement. Peacock Charm is worse than Ziel Necklace, and they're both worse for DDing than Rancor Collar as long as you don't need the extra Acc (another assumption in your favor). I missed the latent on Acheron's Cape, but noted in my post after that that Aesir Mantle was your second best bet.

Regardless, those are some pretty freaking pitiful gear options.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

Add-on pants can be +7 accuracy, 3% Haste. You could have potentially constructed 80% of this set by reading the melee WHM thread on BG. Congratulations on taking the few minutes I take every update to make sure I stay at the top of my very limited selection of game.

Ninurta's is unrealistic, but the same haste can be achieved with Tern's set, at the expense of a few accuracy. I'm missing the Nash feet.

I will go a step further to explain this setup now kills SMN when soloing, thus breaking the job in the only activity that pet jobs thrive at. I've permanently replaced everything but Haste gear with -enmity gear until SE fixes avatars to generate more hate than a competent melee SMN generates. My campaign to fix SMN is no business of yours though, so keep walking.



Absolutely correct, but no one seems to care about mp here.

---

Maybe it kills your SMN, but anything that SMN solos shouldn't be melee'd or even have you in range. If you need one recast that would probably be the end of the fight

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

I will go a step further to explain this setup now kills SMN when soloing, thus breaking the job in the only activity that pet jobs thrive at.

---

Good, now you admitted that your setup destroys the only thing SMN is good at. Now, lets see if you can realize what you don't add to the parties you are supposedly in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Since when did 4 acc become better than 5% critical hit rate?

---

Good question. Since when did you guys stop crying about being in AOE range with a mage? I simply assumed that you guys are too weak to handle +10% pdt. It's fair, it only took 1100 posts to even consider gearing for damage. NONE of you have capped staff skill it seems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Good, now you admitted that your setup destroys the only thing SMN is good at. Now, lets see if you can realize what you don't add to the parties you are supposedly in.

---

I've broken the job at the top end. Of course, if you play at the bottom end, you will never see your pet lose hate to you. You know, I could do jack as well, and spend 3x as long killing stuff too. No telling what you need to waste your gear on.

Hey BG, let's see if you'll do that for us: If SMN aren't meant to DD, heal, buff, and only should be used for 2-3 fights, show us what the best summoners should be wearing.

LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

NONE of you have capped staff skill it seems.

---

I do, just because I like blue skills. Your position is borderline retarded, which you seem to be realizing in the last few pages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

I've broken the job at the top end. Of course, if you play at the bottom end, you will never see your pet lose hate to you. You know, I could do jack as well, and spend 3x as long killing stuff too. No telling what you need to waste your gear on.

---

When you actually arrive at the top end, let us know, ok? By the looks of it, you have a long way to go yet.

Better spend long killing stuff than having to zombie it.

Hey isn't tomorrow when people are forced to link a character to their SE forum account?

Can't wait till the melee SMN god links his mule instead of his main to avoid being found out.

Oh and before someone accuses me of using the same tactic, I openly welcome individuals to pick my gear choices apart for all the classes I play (cept PUP, I locked that class in the basement) and call me out on bad choices.

If I had a melee SMN, you bet id be posting the setup here and looking for criticisms.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

I do, just because I like blue skills. Your position is borderline retarded, which you seem to be realizing in the last few pages.

---

Please don't confuse boredom with BGers defending their website's honor with "realizing anything." You don't get to where I am, breaking avatar hate or discovering Ducal Guard by following WAR from a website who endorse using SMN in 2-3 fights.

You have nothing to offer me but postcount. SE has definitely noticed this thread and let it continue. If SE agrees with you that SMN is too gimp, they will fix pets. If SE agrees with me, I'll continue improving the job update-by-update. You won't be a part of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

Please don't confuse boredom with BGers defending their website's honor with "realizing anything." You don't get to where I am, breaking avatar hate or discovering Ducal Guard by following WAR from a website who endorse using SMN in 2-3 fights.

You have nothing to offer me but postcount. SE has definitely noticed this thread and let it continue. If SE agrees with you that SMN is too gimp, they will fix pets. If SE agrees with me, I'll continue improving the job update-by-update. You won't be a part of it.

---

Discover Ducal Guard first, then talk. SMN's only major problem right now is Blood Pact timers, fixing that will enable SMNs to be able to compete with actual DDs (compete, not beat) and fixing BP timers will make you worse off because you aren't able to keep up with the mp cost for additional BPs. How often are you less than 50% MP? Much more often than I am I am 100% sure of.

You really think doubling BP damage will get you from 100-150 damage to 1000 damage? Who cares if I drop under 50% EDIT (MP), I get 1500mp per Myrkr.

I thought you didn't accept the BG math.

Also, I said 50% MP, not 50% damage. Learn to read.

I thought you DID believe it.

I accept it because it can be redone.

When somebody presents information to you in the form of math, and you can redo the math yourself, that means that you can accept their conclusions.

I did redo the math. I redistributed the damage associated with the 3 mandatory buff jobs back to the buff jobs. Counting party contribution, melee SMN falls from 25% under WAR (unbuffeed) to 33% under WAR (buffed). That is an acceptable level, as I also showed that non-emp GA are much worse than 25% under Ukon.

If Hverg is the bottom emp weapon, but still better than anything non-emp, and there are 10,000 emp weapons, Hverg SMN is still in the top 2%.

Doubling BP speed would be awesome for me, not so much for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

If Hverg is the bottom emp weapon, but still better than anything non-emp, and there are 10,000 emp weapons, Hverg SMN is still in the top 2%.

---

Somehow, I question your ability to add.

2% is calculated via division. I thought you'd be able to figure that out.

I'm just wondering how a weapon be the lowest rating be the top 2% in your mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

I did redo the math. I redistributed the damage associated with the 3 mandatory buff jobs back to the buff jobs. Counting party contribution, melee SMN falls from 25% under WAR (unbuffeed) to 33% under WAR (buffed). That is an acceptable level, as I also showed that non-emp GA are much worse than 25% under Ukon.

If Hverg is the bottom emp weapon, but still better than anything non-emp, and there are 10,000 emp weapons, Hverg SMN is still in the top 2%.

---

Except the top 2% is every other job with an empyrean in this case and they all place higher than SMN i'm willing to wager.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

Doubling BP speed would be awesome for me, not so much for you.

---

Doubling BP speed is great for everyone, you're living in a dream world if you think you're magically the only person with unlimited MP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razushu

Except the top 2% is every other job with an empyrean in this case and they all place higher than SMN i'm willing to wager.

---

No, too many weapons destroys a Hverg SMN as is. Even with the ODD proc too many jobs can do a lot more damage a lot faster. Not including WSs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dallas

Please don't confuse boredom with BGers defending their website's honor with "realizing anything." You don't get to where I am, breaking avatar hate or discovering Ducal Guard by following WAR from a website who endorse using SMN in 2-3 fights.

You have nothing to offer me but postcount. SE has definitely noticed this thread and let it continue. If SE agrees with you that SMN is too gimp, they will fix pets. If SE agrees with me, I'll continue improving the job update-by-update. You won't be a part of it.

---

Good God the day SE listens to someone like you is probably the day that heralds the end of FFXI.

I have like 6 pages to catch up on so bear with me.

1) I really wish people would stop throwing around my spreadsheet numbers as if Summoner Melee actually does more damage than the Avatar when you're not getting what these very same MereeSMNs have called "God-mode buffs that no one realistically gets". When you toss out Red Curry Buns, Haste Samba, Marches, and a perfect TP set, your Garuda is stomping the hell out of you.

2) I laughed at 500 attack and the comeback was "Hey guys I said OUTSIDE of Abyssea okay?". 500 Attack including food is absolutely pathetic even outside Abyssea. That was pretty funny.

3) Dallas now claims to have made / be making significant contributions to the Summoner class? When did this happen? All I've seen from him is theorycrafting with absolutely no justification, either in the form of theoretical math, or parses, or gear sets, or anything beyond "I do it and it's good and you're all gimp for not doing it". Post some specifics that you didn't make up on the fly, and that other people can replicate.

4) Hvergelmir SMN is absolutely not a stronger DD than good, non-EMP "normal DD"s. You're delusional. Though, comparing your absolute best to the world's absolute worst is a tried and proven strategy for people who suck too much to handle a real test. I believe it was Galka who mentioned being able to outparse a full perle gimp Dark Knight in Abyssea earlier in the thread. That's just not pretty.

5) This thread is open because no one wants to read this crapfest. I'm sure it'll meet a swift lock whenever someone gets around to reporting some personal attacks or something. If someone's not interested in participating, though, they're welcome to just stop posting in this thread.

Quote:

---

4) Hvergelmir SMN is absolutely not a stronger DD than good, non-EMP

---

I fully agree with this; It IS, however, a stronger DD than a good, non-EMP SMN. There is of course a price for any extra damage, and that price is some amount of risk, depending on your targets. If you can manage that risk, then you can make use of it to speed up soloing and some not-too-difficult NMs. Most SMNs I know soloing trash mobs (e.g. normal mobs conning a low T or less) will melee because they know they can do it safely against an avatar that's just used a strong blood pact. They don't normally do it in a group setting, but it is worthwhile when soloing normal stuff.

Nobody here thinks it allows you to be better than any other DD, because we know it doesn't and the math shows it doesn't; unless of course your name is Dallas.

Quote:

---

500 Attack including food is absolutely pathetic even outside Abyssea. That was pretty funny.

---

Completely agreed on the statement, but using attack food and having capped skill you should be doing better than that- like 550-600 at least. You can go a little higher with Ifrit, outside of abyssea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I fully agree with this; It IS, however, a stronger DD than a good, non-EMP SMN. There is of course a price for any extra damage, and that price is some amount of risk, depending on your targets. If you can manage that risk, then you can make use of it to speed up soloing and some not-too-difficult NMs. Most SMNs I know soloing trash mobs (e.g. normal mobs conning a low T or less) will melee because they know they can do it safely against an avatar that's just used a strong blood pact. They don't normally do it in a group setting, but it is worthwhile when soloing normal stuff.

Nobody here thinks it allows you to be better than any other DD, because we know it doesn't and the math shows it doesn't; unless of course your name is Dallas.

---

Can agree 100% with this.

Melee'ing is definitely situational, taking all other jobs out of the equation and looking at Summoner alone. There are definitely benefits to sitting back and using perp staves on certain things, and there are plenty of "certain things" this fits with. Having both options is always better than just having one though.

One thing people need to remember is all of the relic and empyrean weapons are designed to be swung. There is simply one for each weapon type and the jobs are assigned to the weapons based on which weapon is "primary" to those jobs. None of these weapons specifically does anything special for a given job (e.g. enhances some ability or spell of that job); The Mythic weapons were the weapons built with this in mind. You do not get a relic or mythic weapon unless you are going to use it to whack things, no matter which job you are. White mages get damage clubs, even though most of them use a staff most of the time; these clubs are built to be swung (except the mythic club which is awesome for normal WHM activities). Other mages get damage staves. Other jobs get damage <whatevers>. BLU gets a damage sword. I realize that for some of these jobs, most people do not usually swing their weapons. But they can if they really feel like it. These weapons are for those people, and have utility to those people. They do not have utility to everyone, and in fact only a few people. In my personal, humble opinion, this is fine, as long as it's useful to somebody for some reason. Finally, the relic/empyrean weapons are centered around a new weapon skill. You don't use a weapon skill if you don't melee, so I don't know why anyone who doesn't melee at all even cares about this. There is already an ultimate weapon that better suits them: The mythic weapon.

TL:DR; all the relic/emp weapons are built as devices to hit things with, regardless of job; If for any reason in the world you want to hit something with a weapon on your SMN, SCH, or BLM, these are the weapons to do it with. If you want a weapon that enhances the spells/abilities/traits of your job, then the mythic weapon is what you want. If you want to do the best possible damage in the cases where you swing your weapon, even if those cases are very rare, then the relic or empyrean is what you want.

---------------

The mythic weapons specifically enhance abilities/spells/traits of jobs. These should be made less difficult to obtain, then people will realize there is a staff that fits their needs, they can then ignore/forget the relic/empyrean weapons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

5) This thread is open because no one wants to read this crapfest. I'm sure it'll meet a swift lock whenever someone gets around to reporting some personal attacks or something. If someone's not interested in participating, though, they're welcome to just stop posting in this thread.

---

I only really post to point out Dallas's flaws, still hoping beyond hope that he would finally realize them.

That and to have him respond to make a fool out of himself.