Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

LOL, thanks for at least knowing 1/3 your accuracy wards. There are 2 other wards out there as well. One works better at new moon. We're talking about a single mob that will be dead in a matter of minutes. Go ahead and stack your wards before hand.

One of the fun things about this thread is that all this time, the BGers have purposely been running to the furthest corners of the game to find the least SMN friendly scenarios to show off their WARs.

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Oh you mean Lunar Cry and Somnolence I assume? Don't forget Tail Whip too

Lunar Cry and Diamond Storm. Close.

I declare the accuracy issue is over. Clearly, no one making the claim knows an evasive mob outside of Abyssea that they'd invite a WAR to attack.

We have to assume SMN melee is accurate enough to benefit more from attack food. Now, lets hear the pDIF excuse again. What can't a melee SMN damage outside of Abyssea with a 98 DMG staff and attack somewhere over 500?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Lunar Cry and Diamond Storm. Close.

I declare the accuracy issue is over. Clearly, no one making the claim knows an evasive mob outside of Abyssea that they'd invite a WAR to attack.

We have to assume SMN melee is accurate enough to benefit more from attack food. Now, lets hear the pDIF excuse again. What can't a melee SMN damage outside of Abyssea with a 98 DMG staff and attack somewhere over 500?

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Ah yeah forgot about that one I haven't actually used it yet(Don't like using AoEs unnecessarily).

When there is one mob (Kirin), use it.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

When there is one mob (Kirin), use it.

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obviously, Shiva was the wrong avatar to put it on though lol.

Actually, don't use it. We haven't determined it's ever needed...

;)

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Actually, don't use it. We haven't determined it's ever needed...

;)

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You know you'd help your side of the argument alot more if you just posted your gearsets and stuff don't? It's not like they're asking you for nudes.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Lunar Cry and Diamond Storm. Close.

I declare the accuracy issue is over. Clearly, no one making the claim knows an evasive mob outside of Abyssea that they'd invite a WAR to attack.

We have to assume SMN melee is accurate enough to benefit more from attack food. Now, lets hear the pDIF excuse again. What can't a melee SMN damage outside of Abyssea with a 98 DMG staff and attack somewhere over 500?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9C9pyaqSrE

Obviously Summoner can kill Kirin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlld7K8wdoM

Over 500 attack is with food?

Lol.

Einherjar T3 bosses, Odin, Gurfurlur and other ToAU kings, T4 ZNM, Kirin, Byakko, Any and All THF NMs, Neo Dynamis Neo NMs (the VT force pop ones), Arch Dynamis Bosses, Bahamutv2, Fomor HNM, Absolute Virtue, Pandemonium Warden, Everything in Voidwatch.

If you do cap accuracy, which is possible on some of these, your pDif and cRatio will still be in the toilet.

Post your gear. If you want to call people Gimp Summoners, you better be prepared to prove that you're not.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Obviously Summoner can kill Kirin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlld7K8wdoM

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Holy crap the Grandia soundtrack just blew my mind. I love those games.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Over 500 attack is with food?

Lol.

Einherjar T3 bosses, Odin, Gurfurlur and other ToAU kings, T4 ZNM, Kirin, Byakko, Any and All THF NMs, Neo Dynamis Neo NMs (the VT force pop ones), Arch Dynamis Bosses, Bahamutv2, Fomor HNM, Absolute Virtue, Pandemonium Warden, Everything in Voidwatch.

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Basically everything he has never fought and will never fight.

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If you do cap accuracy, which is possible on some of these, your pDif and cRatio will still be in the toilet.

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But for him to know what that is, it would mean he would have to do research, but he doesn't respect his jobs enough to do any research of them and what it means to be a damage dealer.

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Post your gear. If you want to call people Gimp Summoners, you better be prepared to prove that you're not.

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I seen his gear, it sucks. It won't do him any favors in posting it

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Yes, the maths were fail. They assumed things that made the situation highly in your favour, namely:

Predator Claws = Ukko's. It's not, it's closer to Raging Rush from a competitive weapon, like Widowmaker.
Accuracy is capped for both SMN and WAR.
SMN is using /sam to gain the most it can from Haste buffs.
SMN has equal melee damage per swing. LOL. Not only does this point ignore pDIF, it ignores the base damage of your weapon and stats. So much for The Kirin Lie™.
WAR was not using any native JAs or traits. Seriously. No Berserk, no att or crit traits, no double attack, completely ignored base stats, etc.

The comparison was literally a naked character with capped accuracy and pDIF using Ukon and Ukko's Fury as a WS vs. an impossible SMN getting ODD off it's staff and Predator Claws.

Less.
Than.
Half.

Exactly what are these miracle SMN buffs you think you are going to stack on yourself? The only super secret buff I can think of that is going to make SMN (and melee SMN) not suck is called Job Change. An issue you keep skirting... why do you show up on SMN when any other job that can do the things SMN can do (buffs, DD, healing) can do them better? You keep pretending that you haven't seen it asked.

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Quoted for truth.

jesus christ on a pogo stick, reading this is going to make my brain melt.

And the BG angry mathie continues his rant, this time demanding I prove that a SMN sitting on his butt doing nothing is more gimp than doing anything besides nothing. What do you think this is, post #75?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

And the BG angry mathie continues his rant, this time demanding I prove that a SMN sitting on his butt doing nothing is more gimp than doing anything besides nothing. What do you think this is, post #75?

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Dude, put up or shut up. Preferably both.

Also admit that you have no clue as how to do damage.

Because that is all you have "proven" so far.

Why do you think you are the greatest thing to happen to humanity since the big bang? Just go away, because you are not bringing anything to the conversation at all anymore, and everyone here is telling you about how much full of feces you are.

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Over 500 attack is with food?

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If you can't break at least 600 attack with food, then you must be wearing some kind of attack - gear or your weapon isn't fully skilled.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If you can't break at least 600 attack with food, then you must be wearing some kind of attack - gear or your weapon isn't fully skilled.

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On SMN my attack is 390 with 321 skill.

Obviously no melee gear, but what slots other than ring actually have attack for smn anyway

inb4 fire staff

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

On SMN my attack is 390 with 321 skill.

Obviously no melee gear, but what slots other than ring actually have attack for smn anyway

inb4 fire staff

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Mine is 305 skill, 367 attack on SMN. 72 STR naked on SMN, but I don't have any STR+ gear for it.

391 attack on WAR. But then again, I got the STR to back it up. 86 STR naked on WAR. I have +37 STR gear for WAR too. Bunch of Attack+ and Double Attack+ gear too.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

On SMN my attack is 390 with 321 skill.

Obviously no melee gear, but what slots other than ring actually have attack for smn anyway

inb4 fire staff

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Still not capped yet due to horrendus 2h skillup rate; but 340 skill with merits and 406 attack with no +attack whatsoever.

Base STR is 81 (merited)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Still not capped yet due to horrendus 2h skillup rate; but 340 skill with merits and 406 attack with no +attack whatsoever.

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Bolded: Most actual DDs don't have staff skill merits.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Bolded: Most actual DDs don't have staff skill merits.

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Most DDs DO have merits in whatever their primary weapon is.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Most DDs DO have merits in whatever their primary weapon is.

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But SMN's main spike damage comes from avatar, not player.

I would understand if SMN is your only job, but I'm sure you have PUP also, so you could have spent the merits on H2H, Evasion, and Guard. Since PUP is considered more of a DD than SMN.

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But SMN's main spike damage comes from avatar, not player.

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Even if you ignore other reasons, sometimes I'm called upon to proc red or blue (crazy as it sounds), meriting makes it as easy as possible.
I have 8 dagger 8 staff 8 hand to hand 4 evasion and 4 that I haven't bothered to spend yet because I'm not sure what I'm going to do with them. Probably scythe since I leveled DRK recently.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Mine is 305 skill, 367 attack on SMN. 72 STR naked on SMN, but I don't have any STR+ gear for it.

391 attack on WAR. But then again, I got the STR to back it up. 86 STR naked on WAR. I have +37 STR gear for WAR too. Bunch of Attack+ and Double Attack+ gear too.

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Something is wrong with your WAR, sitting in TP gear I have: 565 Attack. FC gear: 625 attack. Berserk Down Ukko's gear: 618 Attack, Berserk Up Ukko's gear (without acutal berserk) 547 attack. without gear i figure i'm only losing about 55, which would still put me over 500 attack in tp set.

STR base 94(fully merited)

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Something is wrong with your WAR, sitting in TP gear I have: 565 Attack. FC gear: 625 attack. Berserk Down Ukko's gear: 618 Attack, Berserk Up Ukko's gear (without acutal berserk) 547 attack. without gear i figure i'm only losing about 55, which would still put me over 500 attack in tp set.

STR base 94(fully merited)

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1) I was talking about WAR staff.
2) I don't have STR merited, I have INT merited for BLM
3) I was naked, you even quoted that
4) I was comparing my staff skill with yours vs Dallas staff set. I even said naked SMN has XX attack and XX STR.

Edit: If you want to know, I'm sitting on 562 attack TP on my Bonesplitter (Trial 1354) atm. I have a Widowmaker, but am working on my Ukon. My TP has 16% DA, STR+30, Att+73, STP+13%, Acc+42, DEX+19, and Haste +27% (I know, overkill, but 27% in 4 slots I'll take than 23% in 5 slots).

WS: STR+42, Att+105, Acc+39, DEX+29, and whatever both Snow Gorget and Belt adds to Att/Acc

That way, Dallas can't call my gearset gimp, for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If you can't break at least 600 attack with food, then you must be wearing some kind of attack - gear or your weapon isn't fully skilled.

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So, have you thrown this out yet? The topic is "outside of Abyssea."

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Originally Posted by Korpg

But SMN's main spike damage comes from avatar, not player.

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SMN: the only job where players are too incompetent to realize that spike damage < total damage.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

SMN: the only job where players are too incompetent to realize that spike damage < total damage.

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So says a SMN who claims to out damage an Ukon WAR who's WS does a total of 0 damage each time.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

1) I was talking about WAR staff.
2) I don't have STR merited, I have INT merited for BLM
3) I was naked, you even quoted that
4) I was comparing my staff skill with yours vs Dallas staff set. I even said naked SMN has XX attack and XX STR.

Edit: If you want to know, I'm sitting on 562 attack TP on my Bonesplitter (Trial 1354) atm. I have a Widowmaker, but am working on my Ukon. My TP has 16% DA, STR+30, Att+73, STP+13%, Acc+42, DEX+19, and Haste +27% (I know, overkill, but 27% in 4 slots I'll take than 23% in 5 slots).

WS: STR+42, Att+105, Acc+39, DEX+29, and whatever both Snow Gorget and Belt adds to Att/Acc

That way, Dallas can't call my gearset gimp, for whatever reason.

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O, that makes more sense.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

SMN: the only job where players are too incompetent to realize that spike damage < total damage.

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lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol

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Originally Posted by Korpg

That way, Dallas can't call my gearset gimp, for whatever reason.

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AFAIK, no SMN promoting melee has posted a TP setup.

Edit: Or any results of a parse on targets outside Abyssea designed for 90.

I'll post my SMN gear if he does.

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so you could have spent the merits on H2H, Evasion, and Guard.

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There's no reason to spend merits on guard at all, especially if you have a weapon you could put those merits into.

That aside, I agree with your point (as far as staff being a low priority if you have jobs other than smn)

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

There's no reason to spend merits on guard at all, especially if you have a weapon you could put those merits into.

That aside, I agree with your point (as far as staff being a low priority if you have jobs other than smn)

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Well, I was naming what else he could have put those merits on.

Best SMN TP set?: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/220183

Your WS set is irrelevant, because it does 0 damage anyway.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

So says a SMN who claims to out damage an Ukon WAR who's WS does a total of 0 damage each time.

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Can you stop saying that? yes, it's not big damage, but the weaponskill does add damage form the aftermath.

Seriously: why are we arguing about all the particulars of this anyway? Just let people do what they want to do and stop ragging on them for it. Stop using Dallas as a source of entertainment and find something better to do.

If you're desperately seeking some way to do more damage than you're normally capable of on summoner, this is a way to do that. No (sane) person is arguing that this is a substitute for SE making the job better, another job that can do more damage anyway, or anything else. You're not going to win any epeen contests. You're not going to suddenly be the best at anything so just let it #&$%ing rest. WE KNOW IT ALREADY.

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Your WS set is irrelevant, because it does 0 damage anyway.

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You do have a WS set for it: Whatever has the most MP in any given slot. The WS mod is max MP. Higher max MP = more total MP gained.

Stupid sidenote: You could sub DRG and use that SJ earring to cap haste. (So, not true that SMN can't cap haste after all- just at a silly cost)

So then we agree that the Empyrean, Mythic, and Relic staves could use a re-work? >.>


Edit: Well yeah, as far as the WS set. But it doesn't affect your damage output as long as we're assuming you aren't limited by MP anyway. Realistically, in any situation where you're capable of responsibly meleeing on Summoner, you have so much support that you probably don't need to use the WS anyway.

I killed Cerb with 3 other people yesterday for the title. I came out on SMN/WHM with 4x AF3+2 and no staff and was getting back 7MP/tick with Garuda out.

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So then we agree that the Empyrean, Mythic, and Relic staves could use a re-work? >.>

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No, we don't agree.
Mythic is great, I don't know why you're listing that here. But the mythics are also job specific and every job has one, specifically tailored to that job. In the case of these weapons, SMN and BLM do not want even remotely the same thing in a staff, but these items are wearable by both (and sch in the empy staff).

Empy and relic are best in class for their purpose. Maybe you don't like that purpose and you think it's pointless, and some people may agree with that.

Every weapon class has a few weapons that are out of charateristic. It's fine that these two weapons are those weapons. The relic and empy weapons, are, after all, WEAPONS. not charms or trinkets. If you don't like them, get some other staff to hold. There is nothing wrong with making a weapon that only a few people want. Not everyone is going to get a relic/mythic/empy weapon.

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probably don't need to use the WS anyway.

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The aftermath damage alone is likely more than the next best WS, retribution, unless you get unlucky with it procing.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If you're desperately seeking some way to do more damage than you're normally capable of on summoner, this is a way to do that. No (sane) person is arguing that this is a substitute for SE making the job better, another job that can do more damage anyway, or anything else.

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I think the question is: Is it worth the increased risk of death to do a minimal addition to overall damage?

That was the issue with Dallas over justification with TP feed.

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I think the question is: Is it worth the increased risk of death to do a minimal addition to overall damage?

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Thing is, it's not a minimal addition, relative to what you could have done before. Mr. Spreadsheet said like 30 pages ago that the player is doing more damage than the summon (which, as an aside, is a serious indicator of a problem with the avatar's BP capabilities)

The risk of death is a problem that affects anyone else who melees. Of course, I do have the galka HP advantage, and it's much more dangerous for the taru SMN.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Best SMN TP set?: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/220183

Your WS set is irrelevant, because it does 0 damage anyway.

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Haste+22%
Acc+24
Att+28

Is that really the best TP set for SMN?

I already pointed out you could sub DRG and cap haste (and also get acc bonus trait). In fact, that earring gives enough haste that you could replace one of those 1% haste items with something else.

I'm thinking you might also be able to do better with some augmented items.