Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

Byrth, are you just listing the stuff you'd invite SMN? We know your short list.

That was not the question. Kirin works. We'll use Kirin.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Byrth, are you just listing the stuff you'd invite SMN? We know your short list.

That was not the question. Kirin works. We'll use Kirin.

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Of course Kirin works, hes level 75 content.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Of course Kirin works, hes level 75 content.

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Kirin still outlevels us, not that I'm endorsing this because no summoner gives two farts about kirin.

Oh. Okay. Summoners only have one job and only fight things that drop Summoner-related items. Gotcha.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Oh. Okay. Summoners only have one job and only fight things that drop Summoner-related items. Gotcha.

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If no one wants you there and you have no reason to be there, why be there?

On top of that, kirin is basically irrelevant. I don't really care how well a job performs at an unneeded fight.

Again. See: "Summoners only have one job".

Most people have more than one. In a game where 90% of the strategy in any given fight is job setup, variety is good.

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Again. See: "Summoners only have one job".

Most people have more than one. In a game where 90% of the strategy in any given fight is job setup, variety is good.

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Irrelevant to topic at hand. And most of the jobs that are popular with people who find summoner fun aren't popular either.

On top of this, what is proven that we don't already know? What are we trying to argue? We've already established SMN doesn't do a whole lot of damage, melee or no. Unless you're still kiting kirin, you don't need pets to hit a moving monster anymore.

I believe people were naming targets that Summoner was not capping Accuracy on, and thus most definitely not capping pDIF on.

The comeback that "Summoner doesn't need Kirin drops" is wholly irrelevant, and detracts from the very legitimate point that Summoner is not natively capping accuracy on Kirin. That's all.

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The comeback that "Summoner doesn't need Kirin drops" is wholly irrelevant,

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It's not a comeback. The point is the monster itself is irrelevant. Not just to summoner, but to basically everyone. I don't give two rats behinds if summoner can't cap accuracy or pDIF on it. I'm not going to be fighting it, nor is anyone else I know.

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the very legitimate point that Summoner is not natively capping accuracy on Kirin.

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It's not a legitimate point.

For the record, Kirin is level 92. I cast doubt that summoner can't cap accuracy or pDIF.

Hypothetical scenarios using something that is not likely to take place are not effective devices to prove a point.

I'll give them 2 days to figure out how much accuracy is needed. At that point, I will assume they lied for the sake of lying. I have 85 more staff skill than I did at L75. I also have a few BPs up my sleeve that didn't find use in the Abyssea scenario.

I do believe the 2-h update was when everyone started to zerg Kirin, so obviously accuracy wasn't an issue for 75 WAR then. What I "hear" them saying is that a 75 WAR can out DD a Hverg SMN, which of course is wrong.

I'd be happier with a copy of your actual gear. You refused to give it up last time I was setting up a theoretical parse. Give me evasion/AGI stats on Kirin (Not Dallas, we all know you have absolutely no idea, but just anyone) and I can figure out how much raw acc is needed to cap.

And no one really cares what you hear. You have absolutely no reading comprehension skills.

Summary: Post your gear sets. I'll get back to you on what acc is needed when I have more information. I also never made any claim, lol "they".

Kirin's stats were never terribly inflated over other monsters. He was simply one of the highest level mobs in the game before the level cap increase. You can probably safely use any similar level monster as a reference. At 75, the level difference penalties against kirin were massive. At 90, those penalties are minimal.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Summary: Post your gear sets.

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351 staff skill, I'll look up base DEX, and I'll piss you off by getting the rest of my acc from BPs.

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Congratulations, you pwn PvE with lots of help!

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Hmm, Ballista and SMN only, eh? I think we've solved the problem...

http://wyred.nu/lolfeiwong/

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Originally Posted by Dallas

351 staff skill, I'll look up base DEX, and I'll piss you off by getting the rest of my acc from BPs.

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Gear sets. Not your total DA. Or your total staff skill. Or your total Haste.

Gear. Sets.

Not what SMN can use.

What you use.

Put up or shut up.

Yah, I was right, 82 dex. I'm betting capped accuracy naked with avatar buffs. You want to bring your theoretical math, bring it.

GG, you are the guy who threw around "5x" like you owned the place. You are obviously not the mathie BG was needing.

Maybe you should stop ignoring what he asks for before you make yourself look really stupid, not that you need any help to do that.

Ordinarily I'm not fond of GG's posts. But in this case, he deserves a +1. Though I have to wonder who it is that's +1ing every one of his posts in this thread.

GG should have thought about what kind of information he was going to need from me. It's to my advantage to have him sit around and wonder what a SMN might wear. 2 days for them to figure out if they lied.

I wouldn't have a clue. I don't even have my mules active at the moment.

And he's right. I'm not anywhere near the best BG mathie. The last math class I took was diffy Q and that was over 5 years ago. Most of FFXI's math is simple algebra though, so it's not a big deal. I just don't have any sort of frame of reference for level 90-92 NM stats.

But really. Post your gear sets. You've been asked for them multiple times on multiple occasions for multiple reasons and never put up. That's never a good sign.

Edit: They? I don't even know who mentioned Kirin at this point. My only post about it was in regards to its drops being irrelevant to the conversation and an offer to math it out if given gear sets and NM stats.

The BG illuminati obviously move and think as one or some crap.

You don't need gear for this. You need to know the moon phase.

I care less about the Acc calculations than I do about seeing what the man who flings around the word "Gimp" more than any BG poster on here is actually wearing on his melee SMN.

Of course that's your motivation. That's why you will have to beg someone else to find where I've posted that information. I'm not going to enable your calculator rage. Good luck finding anyone that can support the "Kirin accuracy" lie. Yeah, I'm calling it now.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

You don't need gear for this. You need to know the moon phase.

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You only melee at full moon now?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Of course that's your motivation. That's why you will have to beg someone else to find where I've posted that information. I'm not going to enable your calculator rage. Good luck finding anyone that can support the "Kirin accuracy" lie. Yeah, I'm calling it now.

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You're only hurting your argument more each time you hide from these requests, do the people who share melee SMN with you a favor and go away or post your gear sets.

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Originally Posted by dallas

Of course that's your motivation. That's why you will have to beg someone else to find where I've posted that information. I'm not going to enable your calculator rage. Good luck finding anyone that can support the "Kirin accuracy" lie. Yeah, I'm calling it now.

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a) You are the one who brought up accuracy; everybody else was talking about pDIF. I guess it's another one of your made up situations. Perpetrating the lie, not SMNs needing accuracy. Of course a 2 hander using sushi or pizza isn't going to have accuracy problems. No, you didn't just trick BG into agreeing with you, you aren't even close to that clever. Your pDIF is still shit on anything but trash mobs.

b) You still haven't answered why you would be meleeing any mob on SMN when you can come on a job better suited to do... anything a SMN does. Your buffs are poor, your healing/support is poor, and your melee + avatar is half (or less) of what any real DD can do.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I'll give them 2 days to figure out how much accuracy is needed. At that point, I will assume they lied for the sake of lying. I have 85 more staff skill than I did at L75. I also have a few BPs up my sleeve that didn't find use in the Abyssea scenario.

I do believe the 2-h update was when everyone started to zerg Kirin, so obviously accuracy wasn't an issue for 75 WAR then. What I "hear" them saying is that a 75 WAR can out DD a Hverg SMN, which of course is wrong.

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You have never been in a zerg before, have you?

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Originally Posted by TybudX

a) You are the one who brought up accuracy; everybody else was talking about pDIF.

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The assumption is that melee SMN needs sushi. I never use sushi. I need you liars to prove I need sushi, before you move on to your pDIF lies.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

You only melee at full moon now?

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LOL, thanks for at least knowing 1/3 your accuracy wards. There are 2 other wards out there as well. One works better at new moon. We're talking about a single mob that will be dead in a matter of minutes. Go ahead and stack your wards before hand.

One of the fun things about this thread is that all this time, the BGers have purposely been running to the furthest corners of the game to find the least SMN friendly scenarios to show off their WARs.

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b) You still haven't answered why you would be meleeing any mob on SMN when you can come on a job better suited to do... anything a SMN does. Your buffs are poor, your healing/support is poor, and your melee + avatar is half (or less) of what any real DD can do.

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Fun? Oh wait, this if Final Fantasy XI. We don't play this for fun, we play it so we can complain.

LOL, I skim too much. Half of ANY real DD? The fail maths show "half" of a Ukon WAR with a LOT of people doing nothing but buffing. I guess you aren't a real DD unless you have that one item.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I guess you aren't a real DD unless you have that one item.

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Well............

LOL, be careful, there's a Byakko's Axe WAR here who would be real pissed at the insinuation that Ukon is the only reason WAR beats SMN unbuffed.

//still wondering why this thread hasn't been locked yet...

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Originally Posted by Dallas

LOL, be careful, there's a Byakko's Axe WAR here who would be real pissed at the insinuation that Ukon is the only reason WAR beats SMN unbuffed.

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lol don't get me wrong, a Byakko's Axe WAR will probably still out DPS any SMN, except maybe 90 Hvergelmir SMN or 80+ Nirvana SMN, but it's not by HUGE amounts like a Widowmaker/ToM90/Warlord's Axe WAR, or GIANT amounts like a Maschu+2 or Ukon WAR.

But then, nothing comes close to a Ukon WAR.

durhur what's ryunohige

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

//still wondering why this thread hasn't been locked yet...

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Pretty sure that at page 30 they admins stopped reading it.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

lol don't get me wrong, a Byakko's Axe WAR will probably still out DPS any SMN, except maybe 90 Hvergelmir SMN or 80+ Nirvana SMN, but it's not by HUGE amounts like a Widowmaker/ToM90/Warlord's Axe WAR, or GIANT amounts like a Maschu+2 or Ukon WAR.

But then, nothing comes close to a Ukon WAR.

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Are we still talking "unbuffed in Abyssea?" The "giant amounts" for Ukon is something around 25%, of which I suspect at least 10% is the impact of aftermath. The base damage for those non-Ukons look to be about 10% less than Ukon. Unless Ukko's Fury is a terrible WS (and I don't suspect it is), those weapons do not significantly outperform a Hverg SMN.

That should not be a terrible insult to WAR, since FFXIAH has only found 24 of these staves, and a Widowmaker drops off an NM.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Are we still talking "unbuffed in Abyssea?" The "giant amounts" for Ukon is something around 25%, of which I suspect at least 10% is the impact of aftermath. The base damage for those non-Ukons look to be about 10% less than Ukon. Unless Ukko's Fury is a terrible WS (and I don't suspect it is), those weapons do not significantly outperform a Hverg SMN.

That should not be a terrible insult to WAR, since FFXIAH has only found 24 of these staves, and a Widowmaker drops off an NM.

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I still don't see you providing any substantial proof (parses, maths, etc)

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Are we still talking "unbuffed in Abyssea?" The "giant amounts" for Ukon is something around 25%, of which I suspect at least 10% is the impact of aftermath. The base damage for those non-Ukons look to be about 10% less than Ukon. Unless Ukko's Fury is a terrible WS (and I don't suspect it is), those weapons do not significantly outperform a Hverg SMN.

That should not be a terrible insult to WAR, since FFXIAH has only found 24 of these staves, and a Widowmaker drops off an NM.

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You still have never seen a WAR in action, have you?

But then again, I doubt you seen anyone in action, which makes me wonder how you got your staff.

What did you do, buy the items from other people?

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Originally Posted by dallas

LOL, I skim too much. Half of ANY real DD? The fail maths show "half" of a Ukon WAR with a LOT of people doing nothing but buffing. I guess you aren't a real DD unless you have that one item.

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Yes, the maths were fail. They assumed things that made the situation highly in your favour, namely:

Predator Claws = Ukko's. It's not, it's closer to Raging Rush from a competitive weapon, like Widowmaker.
Accuracy is capped for both SMN and WAR.
SMN is using /sam to gain the most it can from Haste buffs.
SMN has equal melee damage per swing. LOL. Not only does this point ignore pDIF, it ignores the base damage of your weapon and stats. So much for The Kirin Lie™.
WAR was not using any native JAs or traits. Seriously. No Berserk, no att or crit traits, no double attack, completely ignored base stats, etc.

The comparison was literally a naked character with capped accuracy and pDIF using Ukon and Ukko's Fury as a WS vs. an impossible SMN getting ODD off it's staff and Predator Claws.

Less.
Than.
Half.

Exactly what are these miracle SMN buffs you think you are going to stack on yourself? The only super secret buff I can think of that is going to make SMN (and melee SMN) not suck is called Job Change. An issue you keep skirting... why do you show up on SMN when any other job that can do the things SMN can do (buffs, DD, healing) can do them better? You keep pretending that you haven't seen it asked.

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Originally Posted by TybudX

Exactly what are these miracle SMN buffs you think you are going to stack on yourself? The only super secret buff I can think of that is going to make SMN (and melee SMN) not suck is called Job Change. An issue you keep skirting... why do you show up on SMN when any other job that can do the things SMN can do (buffs, DD, healing) can do them better? You keep pretending that you haven't seen it asked.

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But that is detriment to his argument!