New 2-hour Abilities

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

What event are you currently doing where the summoner is only there to block a single SP move every 30 - 60 minutes? And remember that this won't even block a lot of SP moves.

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I'm not doing anything that involves SMN, which is precisely my problem. On the other hand, everything I do already has a THF there.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I'm not doing anything that involves SMN, which is precisely my problem. On the other hand, everything I do already has a THF there.

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Just to be clear, what content is this good for and why? Because so far all I've seen is that this move would be useful on one monster in legion, and I'm not even sure that that is true.

I mean obviously anything that hurts an NM and helps you is useful, but this is an SP ability. It is in no way game changing or job defining. It won't make anyone change their strategy for any event even a little and I suspect that will not change when they add more jobs / content. I really think that everyone is going to regret it if they don't speak up.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Just to be clear, what content is this good for and why? Because so far all I've seen is that this move would be useful on one monster in legion, and I'm not even sure that that is true.

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Actually, almost every monster in Legion. I only mentioned Gallu because you'd probably save it for the worst. It would also be useful on sky gods, sea jailers, some MB mobs, AV, pretty much everything anyone can do, except for Odin and NNI.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

It is in no way game changing or job defining.

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Nor should it be. Anything game-changing or strategy-redefining would be overpowered and would have to be nerfed again, similarly to Embrava or Perfect Defense. SP abilities were and still are a horrible idea, it's terrible game design. They should always be situational and never be able to be relied on.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I really think that everyone is going to regret it if they don't speak up.

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I'm not speaking up because I don't know how they could do better (aside from improving upon it, something like steal more buffs or whatever, but same idea). I wouldn't trade this for anything I can think of at the moment. What would you suggest? 30 seconds of Resolution-like WS damage and triple damage on melee swings? That's horrible. It would help you kill one mob faster solo, two tops. It would speed up lowmanning big NMs by a noticeable but largely irrelevant margin (and only one NM too). And you'd still be a horribly gimp DD in alliance situations. Where is the upside in that? I don't see it. Giving THF a new SP ability is not going to make them a relevant DD, nor should it be doing that. That's what regular abilities and traits are for. Something that's only usable once every hour is never gonna redefine a job unless it's broken (see SMN and SCH).

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Actually, almost every monster in Legion. I only mentioned Gallu because you'd probably save it for the worst. It would also be useful on sky gods, sea jailers, some MB mobs, AV, pretty much everything anyone can do, except for Odin and NNI.

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I meant really useful. People were mashing all that stuff (with the exception of AV) out en mass long before the level increase or any mention of new abilities.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Nor should it be. Anything game-changing or strategy-redefining would be overpowered and would have to be nerfed again, similarly to Embrava or Perfect Defense. SP abilities were and still are a horrible idea, it's terrible game design. They should always be situational and never be able to be relied on.

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Actually that was the whole point of putting abilities on such a long timer. It was because the abilities were supposed to be able to define strategy. They made a few abilities too powerful and a few events too hard to go with them.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I'm not speaking up because I don't know how they could do better (aside from improving upon it, something like steal more buffs or whatever, but same idea). I wouldn't trade this for anything I can think of at the moment. What would you suggest? 30 seconds of Resolution-like WS damage and triple damage on melee swings? That's horrible. It would help you kill one mob faster solo, two tops. It would speed up lowmanning big NMs by a noticeable but largely irrelevant margin (and only one NM too). And you'd still be a horribly gimp DD in alliance situations. Where is the upside in that? I don't see it. Giving THF a new SP ability is not going to make them a relevant DD, nor should it be doing that. That's what regular abilities and traits are for. Something that's only usable once every hour is never gonna redefine a job unless it's broken (see SMN and SCH).

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I'm not saying that they need to completely replace it. But I do think it needs to do more. One way would be to have it just steal the abilities before they are used. Ie. if you are fighting a war/blm NM and you use your SP ability, you are granted 45 seconds of mighty strikes and / or manafont, while the NM is blocked from using those for the duration that you have it. Or, they could add some amount of TH boost to it, or they could make it steal all buffs, or they could add an additional effect of amnesia, or they could make it set all our other ability timers to 0 for 30 seconds, or they could add a huge triple attack bonus that degrades over a few minutes or... you get the point.

Greetings!

I have some information to share about puppetmaster (and I suppose ranger too indirectly) and ninja.

• Puppetmaster
  We will be proceeding with puppetmaster’s new special ability as it currently is on the Test Server.
  
  Aside from this, based on suggestions that we received for this new special ability, we are considering some things for future adjustments and would like to share them with you.
  • Eagle Eye Shot
    There have been a lot of requests to improve the damage capabilities of Eagle Eye Shot, but we will not be making adjustments specifically for automatons. Since this ability’s owner is the ranger, we are planning to revamp Eagle Eye Shot and we will make the changes to the automaton version based on this.
    
    
  • Strengthening Automatons
    In regards to suggestions for abilities to strengthen automatons, we believe that instead of having this done via the new special ability it should be realized through Overdrive. In the future, we will be performing adjustments on Overdrive and would like to use your ideas as reference.
  We will continue to make adjustments to puppetmaster as a whole including attachment adjustments.
  
  
• Ninja
  Based on feedback, to make better use of ninja’s new special ability we will be increasing the effect duration from 30 seconds to 45 seconds.
  
  Though there may be differences depending on equipment and other support effects, the effect of this ability should increase the amount of attack rounds so that you can fire off 3-4 weapon skills in those 45 seconds.
  

Still waiting to hear Red Mage's latest SP abortion has been eliminated and Encomium returned with double duration and potency.

Anything less is unacceptable.

Double Duration/Potency... and SE has decided to change Accession so it stacks with all forms of white magic.

Is there anything SE could do to make the current RDM SP2 functional? Perhaps we should give improvement suggestions for it as well, just in case the devs are married to the whole enfeebling theme.

Besides adding new spells that are worth using, or reworking how current spells work, no, nothing would really make the current ability any good at all.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Double Duration/Potency... and SE has decided to change Accession so it stacks with all forms of white magic.

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This x 10000. Also, it's totally awesome that so far the only responses to the PUP and NIN SP dev post are about the RDM SP.

Because its just them saying "Were not changing PUP, if anything we will change EES which will effect PUP, deal with it" and telling us they are making NIN a little better. RDM was again, left out, which is not good. They fail to ever understand just how much the player base cares about that job, and how little they see coming to it.

i posted this in the RIP RDM< forum but I thought it wouldn't hurt to repaste here because its talks about my ideal RDM 2hr. It has a few other things included as well.

I believe that rdm can still have a nitch as an enfeebler they just need to give rdm enfeebles that are worth a damn and that cripple the mob.

What enfeebles we currently have that cripple the mobs:
Silence, Sleep, Bind, Blind, Paralyze, Slow, Break, Dia III and Bio III(not really enfeebles), Addle, Gravity ( I know I am missing something)

So going over the enfeebles: We have ways to hinder the mobs spells(silence and addle), and attacks(everything else). What we are lacking are enfeebles that hinder a mobs tp moves, this is the real killer. Thus I propose this:
Give rdm Amnesia and Stop and/or Terror. Now everyone will say oh thats to overpowered blah blah blah. SMN gets 60 seconds of invincibility and an instant death move(doesn't work on NMs I know). Blu gets a 15 second terrorize on a 5 min timer. Technically they could terror lock something for 60 seconds with their new 2hr. All that is important is how these enfeebles are implemented.

For instance: Amnesia - sticks well on normal monsters, make its last 60 seconds max, most normal monsters die in 5 seconds anyway. It should be able to stick well on normal NMs and lower lvl HNMs but grow in resistance fast. For High lvl HNMs, like chamber of Mul, it should be extremely resistant. People will say oh but this is then useless. I will explain why it is useful later.

Terror - Should be a glorified dark based stun that can last as long as shock squall. Shock squall is still better because its AoE and thats fine. Give the smns some sort of niche XD. It should stick well on normal monsters and NMs, should stick also moderatly well on HNMs with a very good enfeebling build(makes rdms have a reason to pimp out their enfeebling). I see nothing wrong with this because it will operate the same as shock squall. Perhaps make HNMS have a shorter duration of terror max, like 7 seconds instead of 15. Balance and all that jazzz.

Stop - Should only be able to use this under RDM's new enfeebling 2hr. This new 2hr guarantees an enfeeble will land regardless of resistance.(If the mob is immune it should make it land as well >.>, it is a 2hr....well soon to be 1hr... after all. This also where amnesia gets it usefulness on HNMs. If for some reason you needed an HNM to keep moving and casting but not do TP moves. Like a kite fight or something, or something where the mob changes damage types when it casts etc) So basically stop will be the end all be all enfeeble for rdm(I gave up hope on time mage q.q). If you think about it combines all other enfeebles. Enfeebles are meant to hinder the mob in any way shape and form, Stop is the epitome of that.This ability should last a good 30 to 60 seconds, preferably 60 because that is how long PD will cap close too on a fully decked out smn. Actually you can have duration be based on enfeebling magic skill. More incentive to gear rdm the best as possible.

As an aside, a new enfeeble I just thought up:
Phase - prevents and enemy from changing their "stance" (IE: Amphatrite and Lusca with their damage type changing BS). When this is on the mob it will prevent one occurence of stance change and then wear off. Keep it on a long timer like 2 mins so it can't be abused. Also forces more bringing of rdms if you want to use this for strategy.

Edit: As I was writing the phase enfeeble i forgot to mention that Stop should hinder stance changes as well. The mob should literally be frozen in time. The reason I say this is because countless times when thigns were red staggered in Abyssea they would still change their damage type resistances even though they weren't actually doing anything... soo annoying.

Edit 2: New enfeeble
Name pending - Nullifies an enemies Physical and magical resistances for 60 seconds. (IE botulus,slimes, etc) This should also be on the 2hr. You should have to choose between nullifying the offensive or defense capabilities of a mob. Also, they should not be stackable.

TLDR - Give RDM the enfeebles it deserves!

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Because its just them saying "Were not changing PUP, if anything we will change EES which will effect PUP, deal with it" and telling us they are making NIN a little better. RDM was again, left out, which is not good. They fail to ever understand just how much the player base cares about that job, and how little they see coming to it.

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I believe the CR's are under a standing policy to not report anything RDM related to the developers. We can already see the developers only get information from the JP boards, the NA ones are just a reporting outlet with the occasional CR acting as a go-between in a case by case basis. So if it's RDM related and posted on the NA forum then it doesn't get brought to the developers, if it's RDM related on the JP forums it's only brought to them if nothing else is going on.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the JP forums saying the same thing at this point anyways?

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Originally Posted by Sunrider

Still waiting to hear Red Mage's latest SP abortion has been eliminated and Encomium returned with double duration and potency.

Anything less is unacceptable.

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Does everything need to be about RDM? I know you're enthusiastic about Red Mage and all, but do realize that there are 19 other jobs, and nearly all of them need adjustments of one sort or another.

Just like how everyone bitched about BST, now everyone is bitching about RDM, its because they are just that stupid, even if you don't play the job, you understand how terrible it is. Other jobs don't seem to have it as bad, they have some use, but this, nothing.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Does everything need to be about RDM? I know you're enthusiastic about Red Mage and all, but do realize that there are 19 other jobs, and nearly all of them need adjustments of one sort or another.

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RDM it beyond broken, there are 19 total jobs in FFXI right now as RDM basically doesn't exist. This is a direct result of "over-balancing" coupled with inattention over a period of years. RDM was a zombie long before the 80 cap, it completely died after then and SE has refused to do anything about it.

Seriously did you read the RDM "SP" ability? It's Elemental Seal -1 on a 60 min timer. It's by far the absolute worst ability they've ever come up with. A RDM/BLM can use something better then the "SP" ability six times for every use of the ES-1. That is how bad it is. It would be like giving THF the SP that steals beastcoins but it can miss and is on a 60m timer.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Does everything need to be about RDM? I know you're enthusiastic about Red Mage and all, but do realize that there are 19 other jobs, and nearly all of them need adjustments of one sort or another.

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Can you name the last meaningful update that RDM received that helped define its requirement in a group situation?...neither can I because it has never had one. It has been gifted placebo's over the years, Refresh, Composure, Refresh II, possibly Haste II. It has never undergone a makeover like DNC, it has never seen the direct buffs of PUP, it has never had the role defining adjustments of dedicated jobs. It has ambled along for a decade with no clear cut purpose and outside of its heyday as Meripo healer, and niche role as chainspell stunner it has never had a required tool to bring to the table. It is replaceable in every sense of the word, in nearly every situation it could be involved in.

Now we are at 99, and you know what.../RDM is just as useful as RDM main in any group setting. BRD/RDM is can bring everything a RDM main can, in addition to everything a BRD brings to the table. What other jobs are currently more useful to a group in a subjob capacity?

If SE wants RDM to be defined by its enfeebling and enhancing magic roles, then it needs to make it the best in these positions, the only way to do that is to make enfeebling and enhancing skill actually impact the buffs and debuffs RDM can provide.

If this is not SE's desired approach, then they need to directly improve those areas where they see RDM as a utility. Presently there is no reason to bring a RDM. Its T2 enfeebles are marginal improvements over T1 enfeebles at best, and its other tools are gained by subbing it. Haste and Refresh being attained at sub job level allow for a job like BRD to cap magic haste on its own, and provide more Refresh than RDM can with Refresh II. Its utility is non existent, and its abilities attained post 75 can't even be applied to party members, even as single targets.

RDM is the single worst off job in this game presently because the only viable abilities that could be useful are locked under level 75 mechanics. Regardless of SP ability given RDM will flounder until SE stops being afraid of RDM and actually gives it meaningful purpose, and a reason to be invited. Enfeebling and Enhancing are the only real avenues to pursue and to fix those, you need to make RDM's skill lead in those schools count for something.

But I would love to see your case for a job worse off than RDM. Keep in mind other than ToAU merit parties and chain spell stun, RDM has been entirely replaceable throughout this games history.


(and shit after the implementation of SCH, WHM/SCH could handle meripo parties just as efficiently as a RDM, so even its status as meripo healer was whisked away, leaving its only required use as Chainspell stunning, which was needed in a minute amount of situations.)

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Does everything need to be about RDM? I know you're enthusiastic about Red Mage and all, but do realize that there are 19 other jobs, and nearly all of them need adjustments of one sort or another.

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No it doesn't need to be just about RDM, but it is because of the utter failure in communication and the fact that so many are vocal about it.

There was a thread made, PPL gave good feed back on how they'd like to see it implemented. And they completely deep 6 the idea with out even giving the player base a reason. On top of that they gave us a simple one shot deal that no one has been happy with. They couldn't even say "hey we goof up, and don't think this idea is going to work out with the way we first envision it. So were going to change it."

The first SP on RDM wasn't a failure like the BST one. Little to no one complained about it and most were happy with it minus some adjustments. So it makes no sense at all with what they did. Because unlike us, they have fail to communicate what their thought's were on it.

I mean if thing's are going to be this one side, what's the point of even leaving feed back?

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Originally Posted by tyrantsyn

No it doesn't need to be just about RDM, but it is because of the utter failure in communication and the fact that so many are vocal about it.

There was a thread made, PPL gave good feed back on how they'd like to see it implemented. And they completely deep 6 the idea with out even giving the player base a reason. On top of that they gave us a simple one shot deal that no one has been happy with. They couldn't even say "hey we goof up, and don't think this idea is going to work out with the way we first envision it. So were going to change it."

The first SP on RDM wasn't a failure like the BST one. Little to no one complained about it and most were happy with it minus some adjustments. So it makes no sense at all with what they did. Because unlike us, they have fail to communicate what their thought's were on it.

I mean if thing's are going to be this one side, what's the point of even leaving feed back?

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You nailed it, really. My annoyance isn't so much that RDM doesn't get anything exciting or useful anymore. It's that the producer has made three "we're listening to you" claim posts now, but that's all they are is claims.

Because of the universal distaste for the SP ability and the fact that it's completely different than what players asked for in response to the first one, RDM is now just the poster child for SE's unwillingness to act on player feedback, despite verbally responding to it in a banal way.

YES!!! XD

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MNK Grants a 100% counter-rate against regular attacks from enemies. Also, the amount of enmity gained by this will increase drastically.

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eer, okay! I'm cool with that!

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PLD Grants an increase to the chance of blocking with a shield and reflects the blocked damage to the attacker.

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Awesome!

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RNG The range modifier will become the optimal distance no matter the range to the target. Also, ammunition will not be consumed.

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I like!

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BST Absorbs the pet and recovers both HP and removes status ailments. Also, the player will receive a Reraise effect.

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Um, I was expecting something else...

Please, take it back to the drawing board. "Run Wild" is better than this and I carry RR scrolls if I'm not on /whm.

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Originally Posted by Psxpert2011

YES!!! XD



eer, okay! I'm cool with that!



Awesome!



I like!



Um, I was expecting something else...

Please, take it back to the drawing board. "Run Wild" is better than this and I carry RR scrolls if I'm not on /whm.

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You're a bit late to the party, SE has rewritten most of these abilities completely. Have a look around how they work now, or on test server.

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Originally Posted by Mefuki

Is there anything SE could do to make the current RDM SP2 functional? Perhaps we should give improvement suggestions for it as well, just in case the devs are married to the whole enfeebling theme.

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The only way they can make it better is by making it last for more than one spell and allowing it to break immunity.

However, this is simply placebo because the Enfeebling system hasn't updated beyond level 75 cap, so while Monster resistances have gotten stronger, our enfeebling has not. I know they said they're looking to improve on the Enfeebling system, but they need to bring that out first before releasing a SP that does absolutely nothing.

I suspect SE fears a repeat of Tabula Rasa, which is why they're hesitant to
1) Make the enfeebling 2-hour powerful and resistance-breaking, which would let you freeze yourself during fights and maintain a debuff like Gravity.
2) Restore the old 2-hour

How about a 3rd version of rdms new 2hr?

SuperOmega Bad Breath: Upon activation the enemy is afflicted with numerous (if not all) enfeebling effects, bypasses immunities and surpasses cap, Instant Use.

But really, their current idea has got to go the way of pankration, maze mongers, chocobo racing... etc. gone and certainly forgotten.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

I have some information to share about puppetmaster (and I suppose ranger too indirectly) and ninja.

• Puppetmaster
  We will be proceeding with puppetmaster’s new special ability as it currently is on the Test Server.
  
  Aside from this, based on suggestions that we received for this new special ability, we are considering some things for future adjustments and would like to share them with you.
  • Eagle Eye Shot
    There have been a lot of requests to improve the damage capabilities of Eagle Eye Shot, but we will not be making adjustments specifically for automatons. Since this ability’s owner is the ranger, we are planning to revamp Eagle Eye Shot and we will make the changes to the automaton version based on this.
    
    
  • Strengthening Automatons
    In regards to suggestions for abilities to strengthen automatons, we believe that instead of having this done via the new special ability it should be realized through Overdrive. In the future, we will be performing adjustments on Overdrive and would like to use your ideas as reference.
  We will continue to make adjustments to puppetmaster as a whole including attachment adjustments.
  

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Thank you so much for the response! It's a relief to know that the developers are recieving the feedback regarding Heady Artiface. Since the main issue many PUPs have with the ability is how they're utilized with the automaton's inherent restrictions, it's encouraging to know that while H.A. will remain as proposed, they are still going to look into adjusting the automatons themselves. Perhaps after some of those things are addressed H.A. will be more effective (awkward increased casting/RA delay when mixing heads- I'm looking at you >.>)

It's also very welcoming to hear that adjustments to Eagle Eye Shot and Overdrive are being considered. I'm sure any RNG or PUP will excitedly embrace these changes.

I am curious, though, if other old 2-hour adjustments are being considered alongside these? (Invincible negating ALL dmg and not just physical, perhaps?)



On another note, the recent interim report mentions that sometimes it's difficult when the development team is looking at proposed adjustments in the context of future changes they want to make down the road, while the players are simply looking at how the adjustments affect the game how it is now. I can't help but wonder if the RDM SP ability is an example of this. The development team really needs to understand however, that simply inveiling an ability without providing the context of the future changes is only going to inflame the player-base, which is the exact opposite of what they're trying to do by making us excited about new additions. The players will be much more understanding and excited for these new abilities only if the underlying systems are changed FIRST. New abilities added before the system is changed/fixed feels backwards and is inviting complaints and criticisms and frustrations.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings!

I have some information to share about puppetmaster (and I suppose ranger too indirectly) and ninja.

• Puppetmaster
  We will be proceeding with puppetmaster’s new special ability as it currently is on the Test Server.
  
  Aside from this, based on suggestions that we received for this new special ability, we are considering some things for future adjustments and would like to share them with you.
  • Eagle Eye Shot
    There have been a lot of requests to improve the damage capabilities of Eagle Eye Shot, but we will not be making adjustments specifically for automatons. Since this ability’s owner is the ranger, we are planning to revamp Eagle Eye Shot and we will make the changes to the automaton version based on this.
    
    
  • Strengthening Automatons
    In regards to suggestions for abilities to strengthen automatons, we believe that instead of having this done via the new special ability it should be realized through Overdrive. In the future, we will be performing adjustments on Overdrive and would like to use your ideas as reference.
  We will continue to make adjustments to puppetmaster as a whole including attachment adjustments.
  

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Good news for PUPs there, although I wonder... are the devs also considering a quickswap option for automatons like players have with jobs? It would be a great tool to have in any case, but it's going to be especially important for the new SP2.
And Harlequin.. poor Harlequin.. I hope the devs realize that the frail little thing would spontaniously short-circuit if you tried to Heady Artifice it... keep in mind it's been exposed to sea water for years before it was found again, left rotting and rusting. It needs a complete disassembly and renewal, not a lick of paint...

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Originally Posted by CireFF

On another note, the recent interim report mentions that sometimes it's difficult when the development team is looking at proposed adjustments in the context of future changes they want to make down the road, while the players are simply looking at how the adjustments affect the game how it is now. I can't help but wonder if the RDM SP ability is an example of this. The development team really needs to understand however, that simply inveiling an ability without providing the context of the future changes is only going to inflame the player-base, which is the exact opposite of what they're trying to do by making us excited about new additions. The players will be much more understanding and excited for these new abilities only if the underlying systems are changed FIRST. New abilities added before the system is changed/fixed feels backwards and is inviting complaints and criticisms and frustrations.

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I have the same position on this. RDM SP2 (for some reason I want to call it "Endymion" now) makes no sense in the current game, but might work in an environment where ordinary Elemental Seal cannot reliably land an enfeeble against 999 defense, while SP2 would land it for great effectiveness (especially when you combo it with Saboteur).

Surely the devs must understand by now that the players resentment for the change lies with the lack of information? Inform us already!

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Originally Posted by Kristal

I have the same position on this. RDM SP2 (for some reason I want to call it "Endymion" now) makes no sense in the current game, but might work in an environment where ordinary Elemental Seal cannot reliably land an enfeeble against 999 defense, while SP2 would land it for great effectiveness (especially when you combo it with Saboteur).

Surely the devs must understand by now that the players resentment for the change lies with the lack of information? Inform us already!

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I think the best route to take would be to make sure all content is ready before releasing it instead of releasing half baked stuff, getting people all riled up and then constantly telling them to be patient while they fix it.

Right now, I feel like the waiter keeps dropping raw chicken on my plate and going "Just wait a while. It'll be good when it's cooked. I swear.". But, only half the food ever gets cooked...

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I think the best route to take would be to make sure all content is ready before releasing it instead of releasing half baked stuff, getting people all riled up and then constantly telling them to be patient while they fix it.

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Well.. it IS the test server, after all. They can try out different options and see what works best and what is liked more or less. But even then they should know that it's no use adding a new feature when there's no proper test environment yet... It's like testing icing effects on winter tires on a hot summer day.

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Originally Posted by Carth

The only way they can make it better is by making it last for more than one spell and allowing it to break immunity.

However, this is simply placebo because the Enfeebling system hasn't updated beyond level 75 cap, so while Monster resistances have gotten stronger, our enfeebling has not. I know they said they're looking to improve on the Enfeebling system, but they need to bring that out first before releasing a SP that does absolutely nothing.

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I agree wholeheartedly. However, in its current state and in the current metagame, I feel it would be a welcome addition to Red Mage's arsenal if it weren't on an SP Timer.

Problem is, its on one, and if we show we like it even a little bit, no matter how or why, we will be stuck with it forever on this timer.

Hello!

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Originally Posted by Helel

I don't normally say this, but you've got to cut the devs some slack on the Meikyo Shisui one. If you think about how mobs perform tp moves it would be very difficult to program the Meikyo Shisui as an actual "buff." It would seemingly require a complete recoding of mob's tp mechanisms because they don't "normally" use their tp moves as soon as they have 100 tp, unless their hp is below 25%. You'd have to create a check of some sort, if mob has Meikyo Shisui then use tp move if tp is over 100. However, I'm sure with SE's programming, this would require a reprogramming of every mob that uses Meikyo Shisui.

I'm sure Astral Flow works similarly, the mob doesn't actually gain a buff, the avatar is just programmed to use its respective 2-hour whenever the dust cloud goes off for X minutes.

That said, it would be nice if the THF SP2 inflicted the mob with an amnesia of some sort so the proceeding effects of the mob's SP1 fail. It's not like a THF would actually have any use for astral flow, but the ability to prevent a mob from using it would be very valuable.

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We looked into your suggestion, but with the current specs of the game, even if we were to make it so amnesia was inflicted on the enemy, once it wears off the monster would proceed to use their weapon skills in succession (they do not lose their TP), so it was thought that this would not be much of a help.

Additionally, it’s not possible to make so the system determines whether Meikyo Shisui or another ability is active and inflicts amnesia, so it would have to be inflicted regardless of the ability you are aiming to steal, which would largely change the nature of the ability. Due to this we would have to recreate the entire ability.

While it is unfortunate, it is very difficult to address Meikyo Shisui and Astral Flow with this ability.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello!



We looked into your suggestion, but with the current specs of the game, even if we were to make it so amnesia was inflicted on the enemy, once it wears off the monster would proceed to use their weapon skills in succession (they do not lose their TP), so it was thought that this would not be much of a help.

Additionally, it’s not possible to make so the system determines whether Meikyo Shisui or another ability is active and inflicts amnesia, so it would have to be inflicted regardless of the ability you are aiming to steal, which would largely change the nature of the ability. Due to this we would have to recreate the entire ability.

While it is unfortunate, it is very difficult to address Meikyo Shisui and Astral Flow with this ability.

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What about adjusting the nature of how monsters recieve these abilities, and just giving them the player buff effects (or a "dummy" effect) anyway since they won't do anything for the monster? Then you can check to see if this buff has been removed, and if it is, take the monster's TP away or remove the astral flow ability from the avatar.

As far as astral flow, I always thought they got the real effect because I could swear if you kept an avatar incapacitated long enough, they would lose the use of the 2hour ability.

You want specific suggestions on how to implement a solution, here is one.

(edit: On the flip side, I think thieves are not considering the utility of receiving the buff effect themselves- only the removal of the effect from the enemy- What thief wouldn't love to have Mighty Strikes or Blood Weapon or Hundred Fists? this being said, this should probably not be implemented if it can't be applied to all SP1 effects)

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello! We looked into your suggestion, but with the current specs of the game, even if we were to make it so amnesia was inflicted on the enemy, once it wears off the monster would proceed to use their weapon skills in succession (they do not lose their TP), so it was thought that this would not be much of a help.

Additionally, it’s not possible to make so the system determines whether Meikyo Shisui or another ability is active and inflicts amnesia, so it would have to be inflicted regardless of the ability you are aiming to steal, which would largely change the nature of the ability. Due to this we would have to recreate the entire ability.

While it is unfortunate, it is very difficult to address Meikyo Shisui and Astral Flow with this ability.

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That IS unfortunate. Because this ability was already pretty weak before we found out that it doesn't work on Meikyo Shishui.

Its not like SAM SP1 is the end of the world, but this ability needed something extra added to it to be a viable SP2 BEFORE we found out it didn't work on SAM SP1.

The ability to steal one SP1 ability every hour may sound useful to some players, but it will face the same utility bottleneck that Aurasteal does: The overwhelming majority of content just doesn't have useful, dispellable or Stealable enhancement effects...and most of the ones that would be useful and desirable, CAN'T be stolen or dispelled by Aurasteal...sound familiar?

THF new SP2 in practice:

• The majority of NMs do not use SP1
  *The majority of the ones that do usually use them more than once. So again, groups will bring SMN or RDM or SCH...Better jobs with better Spells and Abilities to deal with Devastating SP1. (don't say it. No one is bringing more than one THF to anything)
• The majority of SP1 cannot be stolen or are inconsequential (Perfect Dodge, Invincible etc)
• The majority of SP1 that can be stolen are useless for a THF to "steal." So it's essentially just a utlity dispel for the few ones where it works and might be relevant.

"BUT it also steals regular enhancements just like Aurasteal!"

Exactly. You gave us Aurasteal -1 for 99% of game content. No thanks. Aurasteal can already steal two enhancements. Whereas this weak SP2 can only steal one.

THF SP2 Needs adjustment. The 1% of content where it will be useful does not outweigh the 99% of the content where it will be Aurasteal -1. The way it exists currently is not worthy of its recast timer.

I suppose this fits in with THF tradition though, as almost all of our abilities are not worthy of their long and shared recast timers: Mug, Steal, Aurasteal, Despoil, Hide, Flee, Accomplice, Collaborator, Conspirator.....etc.

Sorry, I'll just shut up. THF will stay weak. Nothing to see here.

Ahem. Specific Suggestions and all that:

• THF SP2: Steals All Enhancement Effects on Current Target (Including status granting SP1 Abilities)
• THF SP2: Steals The SP1 from the target before they use it (Prevents SP1 Use).
• THF SP2: In addition to stealing an enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities) Steals a massive amount of HP (at least enough to heal the THF to full).
• THF SP2: In addition to stealing one enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities) Steals 300 TP + resets Sneak attack, Trick Attack and Bully Timers.
• THF SP2: In addition to stealing one enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities), steals the monster's critical hit rate defense (+Critical Hit Rate for Alliance).

There's like only 11 SP1 that are buffs that you can steal.
Of those 11, 5 of them are usable by THF and not just stolen as a means to disable the sp1. 6, assuming you are THF/DNC and you can steal Trance from the massive number of DNC-type monsters and you get the benefit of Trance despite not being DNC main. By usable, I just mean it benefits the THF in some tangible way which generously includes Perfect Dodge and Invincible.

I don't even know if there are any SCH-type monsters to steal Tabula Rasa from but I guess it'd be applicable in Ballista.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello!



We looked into your suggestion, but with the current specs of the game, even if we were to make it so amnesia was inflicted on the enemy, once it wears off the monster would proceed to use their weapon skills in succession (they do not lose their TP), so it was thought that this would not be much of a help.

Additionally, it’s not possible to make so the system determines whether Meikyo Shisui or another ability is active and inflicts amnesia, so it would have to be inflicted regardless of the ability you are aiming to steal, which would largely change the nature of the ability. Due to this we would have to recreate the entire ability.

While it is unfortunate, it is very difficult to address Meikyo Shisui and Astral Flow with this ability.

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Maybe it's time to throw in the towel...

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Originally Posted by Nebo

Ahem. Specific Suggestions and all that:

• THF SP2: Steals All Enhancement Effects on Current Target (Including status granting SP1)
• THF SP2: Steals The SP1 from the target before they use it (Prevents SP1 Use).
• THF SP2: In addition to stealing an enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities) Steals a massive amount of HP (at least enough to heal the THF to full).
• THF SP2: In addition to stealing one enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities) Steals 300 TP + resets Sneak attack, Trick Attack and Bully Timers.
• THF SP2:In addition to stealing one enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities), steals the monster's critical hit defense (+Critical Hit Rate for Alliance).

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All interesting, but I think I like the fourth one best. Might limit it to just stealing all of the mob's current TP instead of the arbitrary 300 TP value, though. Certainly wouldn't consider that unbalanced, considering drk's SP2, and the timer reset would generally allow the thf to immediately use a stacked weaponskill along with it.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

THF SP2: Steals All Enhancement Effects on Current Target (Including status granting SP1)

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What's a "status granting SP1"? This would be better than what we're getting right now. How much better? Not much at all. Effectively the same thing. Stealing Chainspell is bitchworthy, but stealing Chainspell and Aquaveil is amazing?

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Originally Posted by Nebo

THF SP2: Steals The SP1 from the target before they use it (Prevents SP1 Use).

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Would be hard to use strategically, harder than what we're getting. May end up being worse depending on how they implement it (and let's not kid ourselves, it's SE).

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Originally Posted by Nebo

THF SP2: In addition to stealing an enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities) Steals a massive amount of HP (at least enough to heal the THF to full).

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Sounds good. Still not much better than what we're currently getting.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

THF SP2: In addition to stealing one enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities) Steals 300 TP + resets Sneak attack, Trick Attack and Bully Timers.

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See above. Not much better than what we're currently getting.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

THF SP2:In addition to stealing one enhancement effect (including status granting SP1 Abilities), steals the monster's critical hit defense (+Critical Hit Rate for Alliance).

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This is the only suggestion that would be noticeably better than what we're getting right now and depending on the implementation it can be very powerful.

Not that I'd mind any of what you suggest, but none (except for the last) is noticeably better than what the development team came up with. I just don't understand your bitching.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

What's a "status granting SP1"? This would be better than what we're getting right now. How much better? Not much at all. Effectively the same thing. Stealing Chainspell is bitchworthy, but stealing Chainspell and Aquaveil is amazing?

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Edit:

A "Status Granting SP1" Is one like Mighty Strikes, Perfect Dodge, Hundred Fists, etc. One that grants a status effect to the Mob. Unlike SAM SP1, Astral Flow, etc that are coded differently for mobs and do not grant them a status effect. See SE's reason that THF SP2 will not work on them.

99% of mobs don't use chainspell. A lot of the ones that do can use it more than once. You don't bring a THF to deal with that, you bring a better job with more utility that can deal with that.

Be that as it may, for the rest of the 99% of content (forgeting that stealing just 1 buff is weaker than Aurasteal). A Dispel ALL kind of move is more useful than stealing one random one. You are right, it's not OMGWTFBBQ better, it's just realistic and better for 99% of content that do not use SP1. And you are Guaranteed to get the buff you are after.

It's also more useful for mobs that use lots of defensive/offensive buffs in conjunction with other Things. So dispelling a defensive buff and their 2 hour etc. Contributing further to the death of the mob in a more "utility" aspect.

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Would be hard to use strategically, harder than what we're getting. May end up being worse depending on how they implement it (and let's not kid ourselves, it's SE).

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Stealing the ability BEFORE they use it would be harder to use strategically than trying to REACT to it after they use it? I don't understand your argument?

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Sounds good. Still not much better than what we're currently getting.

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You don't think the ability to steal TP and use a stacked WS right after would be much better than this? I disagree.

Solo, you have the possibility for serious spike damage and SC, as well as in alliances contributing more to DD as well.

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See above. Not much better than what we're currently getting.

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It might not be MUCH better, but it could be significant if it prevents you from taking a dirt nap while stealing their SP1 at the same time. Time unweakened vs waiting 5 minutes could be the most significant DD buff I suggested to this ability.

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This is the only suggestion that would be noticeably better than what we're getting right now and depending on the implementation it can be very powerful.

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I agree. It's a nice one.

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Not that I'd mind any of what you suggest, but none (except for the last) is noticeably better than what the development team came up with. I just don't understand your bitching.

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They are in fact, ALL, noticeably better than what they are suggesting. But I'm not surprised that you don't understand. Likewise, I don't understand your contentment with this weak, HIGHLY SITUATIONAL (even for THF) SP2.

But you and I have rarely ever been on the same page when it comes to THF.