New weapons with higher base damage then relics

God forbid you actually have to participate in NEW content to keep your character relevant. Why play an MMO if there's no forward progression?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dazusu

God forbid you actually have to participate in NEW content to keep your character relevant. Why play an MMO if there's no forward progression?

---

There is forward progression through armor, and weapons are upgraded too, even if they are in the end basically the same weapon with better stats, that was fine with me, and many others, for many years now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demon6324236

They have never outdated RM weapons and left them for dead, why should they do anything different now?

---

Well... I don't know why, really, but I'm sure you remember this...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

However, RME weapons have been considered the ultimate weapons up until this point in time, but I feel that this needs to change a bit.

---

Sure, that doesn't exactly say they'd leave them dead, but I do think that is exactly what they had first planned on doing. =/

Matsui came in and wanted to change the design of the game we are so used to, I know that, I am hoping from our backlash that he understands the problem with that line of thinking when it comes to this community. People who support it however, have given no good points as to why they should progress this way except 'but all of the other MMOs do it' to which I have to say, perhaps the reason this game still has people playing it after 10 years is because its not every other MMO...

I think he had a lot of good ideas for an MMO, But he thoroughly misunderstands that most of the FFXI population plays FFXI because items have a sense of accomplishment and longevity to them. You do not get that in any other MMO, because in a months time, in other MMOs, said item is now garbage and replaced. There are players who can stand behind an MMO design like that, I personally can not.

In my opinion, FFXI had a good formula going. They'd release gear that was better, they'd release sidegrades, they acknowledged peoples efforts and tried to keep old content relevant... Adding some Best-in-slot Augments to Abjuration and Sky gear kept things like Odin, Sky, and even some ground kings still semi-relevant... Dynamis for Relics, Abyssea had Emp Armor/Weapons, Salvage for Alex... Even though these events were old they still held relevance in some way, save maybe Limbus2.0 which they kinda just dropped the ball on.

There was always a large variety of events, old and new... As opposed to now where its basically DELVE DELVE DELVE DELVE WILDSKEEPER DELVE.

FFXI had a nice blend of "Gear to chase" and "Gear thats got a long lifespan" that made me happy. I can safely tell you I've never been at a point in FFXI where i had no gear to obtain, on gear to look forward to getting... The only job that came close was my THF and even it still had gear to get. The game was fine as it was, and I promise you there would be significantly less B**ching about SoA If weapon power stopped at or slightly above Skirmish-Levels (Which were very close to 95-99 REM), and the Armor continued to upgrade exponentially as it is.

Sure there would still be some complaining but you'd not of alienated nearly all of the 99 RME crowd... But the point is, IDK why some of you joined FFXI, But i joined it because gear had longevity, gear have value, it meant something, and in the midst of the ever changing and upgrading/sidegrading gear options, RME Stood on top as a strong, permanent, Solid investment that would always provide you with the best in slot for your DD options. Sure among them one may be better than the other (Myhic POle > Relic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Emp Pole), But the Super Weapons were always the best investment you could make in FFXI.

Yes, Endgame pretty much became REM Only, but thats mostly SE's fault for releasing content so difficult that It requires near perfect co-ordination and Gear, leaving 0 room for error, and in some cases still boiled down to f**king luck (Looking at you Legion/NNI). If SE would have released NNI in old Nyzul fashion, Climb to 100, Disc resets at 100 and you get 1 piece of armor, I promise you there would be a lot less of a "RME only" shouts for it, as you'd only need a certain level of competency, like old Nyzul, which was very casual friendly..

TL;DR I didn't keep playing FFXI because I hoped one day it would become a WoW/Koreangrinder clone, and not the good kind... So this change was unwelcome to me, especially in the weapons department. I mean, If you like it you like it, i'm simply trying to show you people theres two sides of the coin here, and just cause you can't comprehend the grand-f**king-canyon sized difference between outdating armor, and outdating REM99 weapons, doesn't mean that to a lot of us this isn't a giant c*ckslap to the face.

I see why you guys find it appealing, I personally just don't. And I've already talked with my money and Quit. That lovely Hume face you see to the left is my brothers account which will expire in some period of time... IDK when.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dazusu

God forbid you actually have to participate in NEW content to keep your character relevant. Why play an MMO if there's no forward progression?

---

For better or worse, FFXI was all about long and often tedious quests to build the very best weapons which you could justify if the weapons were going to stay on top forever. New gear was introduced as slight improvements or sidegrades, often being situational but optimal for that particular situation. This is what FFXI was through 4 expansions and 11 years of content. The people who liked this kind of game were loyal and continued to play.

There is nothing wrong with forward progression. We're accustomed to things being left behind here and there. But generally we have come to expect weapons to be left alone. The playerbase was taken completely by surprise when Skirmish weapons came out, but I think most people were okay with them. And then Delve. What people are upset about is the by how much the previous gold standard was left behind. You simply can't be prepared for something like that after 11 years of the game being a certain way. You'll have to forgive people for reacting negatively after being blindsided by that one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by detlef

For better or worse, FFXI was all about long and often tedious quests to build the very best weapons which you could justify if the weapons were going to stay on top forever. New gear was introduced as slight improvements or sidegrades, often being situational but optimal for that particular situation. This is what FFXI was through 4 expansions and 11 years of content. The people who liked this kind of game were loyal and continued to play.

There is nothing wrong with forward progression. We're accustomed to things being left behind here and there. But generally we have come to expect weapons to be left alone. The playerbase was taken completely by surprise when Skirmish weapons came out, but I think most people were okay with them. And then Delve. What people are upset about is the by how much the previous gold standard was left behind. You simply can't be prepared for something like that after 11 years of the game being a certain way. You'll have to forgive people for reacting negatively after being blindsided by that one.

---

http://agilesutra.files.wordpress.co...-to-change.jpg

Stubborn, angry, insecurities, blame... Sounds like a lot of people here lol. Don't worry. Smart people say that you'll feel better in the future :)

You'll note that stubborness anger and resistance correlate to a high level of competence.

And moving on relates to low level of competence.

I think he accidentally just insulted himself but didn't quite catch on to that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raksha

You'll note that stubborness anger and resistance correlate to a high level of competence.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

And moving on relates to low level of competence.

I think he accidentally just insulted himself but didn't quite catch on to that.

---

I think those stages in the diagram mean stubbornness and anger lead to declining competence, and acceptance leads to improving competence. In my line of work we call the diagram "The pit of dispair" lol.

The way I see it in regards to this thread is you can "let go" one of two ways. Either you can accept the changes to the game, roll with it, and learn to enjoy it, OR you could just go do something else, and commit to that instead.

Sitting and complaining, or "AFKing in Jueno until more stuff comes out" isn't exactly exhibiting competence. So agree with the diagram or not, if you're doing these things, then you're in the pit. Things will only get better once you accept things and move on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peepiopi

The way I see it in regards to this thread is you can "let go" one of two ways. Either you can accept the changes to the game, roll with it, and learn to enjoy it, OR you could just go do something else, and commit to that instead.

---

The way I see it in regards to this game is you can "let go" one of two ways. Either you can accept the player base here does not want these kind of changes to the game, roll with it, and learn to enjoy it how it was before, OR you could just go play one of the hundred MMOs this is starting to become like, and commit to that instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Either you can accept the player base here does not want these kind of changes to the game...

---

Maybe some players don't like things to change, but I'm not one of them. It's hardly accurate to make a general statement like "the player base here does not want..." because you don't speak for everyone. I'm having fun with the game, I'm enjoying the new expansion, and I don't mind the changes. Haven't met a single person in-game that has any complaints either :) So speak for yourself.

By the way, you missed my point. I'm not the one trying to cope with the changes, but it seems like you are. How's life in the pit?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peepiopi

By the way, you missed my point.

---

You missed mine as well it would seem.

If you want the kind of game this is becoming why the hell are you playing this? Its 11 years old, its specifically not like the MMOs coming out now days, and now they are taking that away, changing it in a massive way that you seem not to mind. If you don't mind it, cool, please, go play 1 of the other games just like that which come out every year. I play this because its not every other MMO, its different.

This is the only game I have actually found which I enjoyed playing for more than a couple of weeks or a couple of months besides Phantasy Star Universe, which is now gone, and PSO2 has not been released in NA yet. So guess what that means for me, if this game changes, adapts things like all of those other MMOs, I am left without a MMO, I not only lose the game I know and love, but I have no new home to go to. So please, tell me, why exactly should I simply sit back and accept this? Why should I allow others to reshape the game I know and love when the part being changes is the exact reason I have been enjoying this game so long? I fail to understand why I should do this, why people would want this game to change in the way it is and why if people want a game like this is becoming they have not just moved to another game which is already like this game is turning out to be. The only change this game has ever needed is SE listening to players more on some specific issues while making certain things more fair, fun, and balanced, such as NMs which have to be stun locked or tediously drawn out things, impossible drop rates like VW, and so on. If these things were fixed the game would be perfect for many people, but that is part of the problem, they don't, and now they are changing the game in such a radical way I really am finding myself hoping this game dies now. At least if it dies soon, I will have memories intact of how it once was, if it takes to long to die and they do not revert it, my memories of this game will forever be tainted with how this game has fallen from what it once was, a unique game I enjoyed.

To me, there is nothing I need to accept, accepting a problem does not make it any less of a problem in some cases, this is one of those. This is not a good change, it needs to be reversed, and if you like how its becoming, there is a ton of games around with this ideal and design which they are trying to implement, while the one they are moving away from is not common, and needs to be kept so the game is unique!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demon6324236

You missed mine as well it would seem.

(edit)tl;dr: boo hoo, bunch of whining... change is bad.

---

No I got your point. You didn't really have one except to try to think of some [not so]witty way to say I'm the weird one for not complaining like you are, and that I should be just as pouty as you about game changes, or I should just go away. The difference between you and me is that if I'm not having fun playing a game any more, then I'll just stop playing it and do something else. You on the other hand seem to just... complain.. Then you seek validation by trying join like-minded people in a little vocal majority so you can all just... complain to each other together.

If you have any experience with other MMOs, then you'll realize that whining on the forums rarely get anywhere. If you really don't like the direction the game is going, then vote with your pocketbook, then move on! I promise you that there are other things to do than waste time with a game that you can only complain about.

On the other hand, maybe you just enjoy complaining, and ignoring reason. In which case, be my guest :) Complain until you can't do it any more, or find something better to do. Your behavior is typical.

My behavior is typical of people who complain about change, yes, but as I said, I have played other MMOs, I like none of them, I play this one because I like how it was, I would gladly quit this game today except I have friends here I rather not leave and besides that, I have no other MMO to go to because none are like this that I have ever seen or played. I can not play PSU, I can not play PSO2, I can not play FFXIV, that eliminates my choices of games I like quite a bit. There are a hundred games out there with the same kind of things they are trying to implement now, why are you not playing them instead of this one, why must this one become like one of the games I hate? Your failing to explain why this game should become like every other MMO when its going to lose the exact reason its unique in the process and end up becoming nothing more than another generic game. I have nothing against change, I have something against what kind of change we are seeing. If they made changes I did not already know I do not like, that would be one thing, but they are not making those kind of changes, I know I don't like these, because these changes are the same exact reason I hate every other MMO!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demon6324236

My behavior is typical of people who complain about change, yes, but as I said, I have played other MMOs, I like none of them, I play this one because I like how it was, I would gladly quit this game today except I have friends here I rather not leave and besides that, I have no other MMO to go to because none are like this that I have ever seen or played. I can not play PSU, I can not play PSO2, I can not play FFXIV, that eliminates my choices of games I like quite a bit. There are a hundred games out there with the same kind of things they are trying to implement now, why are you not playing them instead of this one, why must this one become like one of the games I hate? Your failing to explain why this game should become like every other MMO when its going to lose the exact reason its unique in the process and end up becoming nothing more than another generic game. I have nothing against change, I have something against what kind of change we are seeing. If they made changes I did not already know I do not like, that would be one thing, but they are not making those kind of changes, I know I don't like these, because these changes are the same exact reason I hate every other MMO!

---

Do you know why other MMOs have certain similar elements? Money. It is a business after all. There are some game elements that are popular among gamers; and developers want to integrate those, because they attract subscribers. More subscribers means more development, and better maintenance. For example, whether you like (or even played) the game or not, WoW is the most successful MMO in history because Brack recognized that, and the today's version of WOW has improved drastically from it's debut in 2004.

Very little has changed for FFXI, even though it's practically the same age as wow, and it fell way behind because it didn't change. It has an endearing environment and great story, but it's still pretty much a graphical mud with insane grinds. That isn't that popular any more in today's gaming community, hence why they're changing.

Unlike you, I would love to see FFXI stick around for many more years, but to do that, they need to find new subscribers. You will be hardpressed to convince a developer to keep the game the way you like it, if it meant losing potential funding and profit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peepiopi

Do you know why other MMOs have certain similar elements? Money. It is a business after all. There are some game elements that are popular among gamers; and developers want to integrate those, because they attract subscribers. More subscribers means more development, and better maintenance. For example, whether you like (or even played) the game or not, WoW is the most successful MMO in history because Brack recognized that, and the today's version of WOW has improved drastically from it's debut in 2004.

---

I know they copy WoW, but would you care to tell me, just how many of those games flop? Last I knew, almost all of the MMOs that come out today do poorly, why? Because most people see they are nothing but WoW clones, if you like WoW and its kind of content chances are you will play WoW, the reason why is because its the original, and it does it damn well, so why would you go play a game which only attempts to copy it? As you said, in your second paragraph, this game came out in the same period of time as WoW did, and while it does not have the same level of income or player amount, it has a different style of play than most, which allows it to keep its own player base who enjoy the kind of entertainment it provides, while most other games including WoW fail to provide just that.

Quote:

---

Unlike you, I would love to see FFXI stick around for many more years

---

Make no mistake, I have no wish to see FFXI get shutdown, but I also have no wish to see it continue to go bad as it is now. If they changed the game to how it was, long term goals, feeling like my work is worth it, having fun with a ton of friends, low-man content I can do with a couple friends, as well as some of their old promises and some more flexibility and listening to players a bit more, I would love this game again. For now, I just do not care about it anymore, and its death at this point would seem a blessing because then its at least done, over, and out of its misery, rather than them trying to reform it into something its not, and was never meant to be.

Quote:

---

to do that, they need to find new subscribers.

---

This game is eleven years old, the graphics look like a PS2 game, because it is a PS2 game. They refuse to drop support to the console which leaves many features in ruin because its impossible to upgrade it without screwing over PS2 users by not giving them the same benefits while at the same time, as well as removing the ability to play on PS2 once activating these features on your account with a Xbox 360 or PC. They also have shown no attempt at advertising this game at all in years, anywhere I have ever looked, the closest was a single add I saw for Adoulin, 1 time, ever. Tell me, how are they going to find new subscribers when they do nothing to get this game really out there for people to play while its age, graphics, and trial make the game look horrible beyond compare?

Quote:

---

You will be hardpressed to convince a developer to keep the game the way you like it, if it meant losing potential funding and profit.

---

They are already making FFXIV, which sounds as though it follows much the design concept of more modern MMOs while adding its own flavor to it. In which case, I would think they are losing potential profit by killing off a more unique MMO that people might play at the same time as FFXIV, or might play instead of FFXIV because FFXIV is not their style of game. If FFXIV is like how FFXI is turning out to be I may very well not like it or play it, but I would play FFXI if it were how it used to be, in which case, profit. If I like FFXIV though, why would I play FFXI? Its eleven years older, its dev team is miniscule by compare I am sure, it has many problems, and more, so if the concept for how the game works is roughly the same, why play FFXI at all? Everyone would simply upgrade to FFXIV, and this game would die. If it didn't die, they are simply creating one game, and changing another, so that they both line up in a similar format, thus giving us two games with similar designs made by the same company more than a decade apart. To me, that sounds stupid, correct me if I am wrong.

You made me think of something though in that line of thinking. The only way I could see this idea from SE being at all a good idea marketing wise is if they honestly thought by changing FFXI's style to match more with how they want FFXIV to be that it would let FFXI players ease into that so when FFXIV comes around, they want to play that too. Like I said though, they would basically be killing off one game for the success of another, when you could keep both around and unique from one another, catering to two types of players at the same time, making more money, and having happier customers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demon6324236

I know they copy WoW, but would you care to tell me, just how many of those games flop? Last I knew, almost all of the MMOs that come out today do poorly, why? Because most people see they are nothing but WoW clones, if you like WoW and its kind of content chances are you will play WoW, the reason why is because its the original, and it does it damn well, so why would you go play a game which only attempts to copy it? As you said, in your second paragraph, this game came out in the same period of time as WoW did, and while it does not have the same level of income or player amount, it has a different style of play than most, which allows it to keep its own player base who enjoy the kind of entertainment it provides, while most other games including WoW fail to provide just that.

---

Erm...no. The reason the other modern MMOs failed was more due to them releasing subpar or incomplete games with broken/unbalanced/poorly-designed systems under the impression we're still in 1997 where players will stick to the game despite its flaws until the kinks are worked out (a design model that doesn't work anymore with so many MMORPGs out there on the market).

I'll spare you the litany of modern MMORPGs from the last 5 years that flopped for stupid reasons that could have been avoided if the developers had not subscribed to the above-mentioned model.

Quote:

---

This game is eleven years old, the graphics look like a PS2 game, because it is a PS2 game. They refuse to drop support to the console which leaves many features in ruin because its impossible to upgrade it without screwing over PS2 users by not giving them the same benefits while at the same time, as well as removing the ability to play on PS2 once activating these features on your account with a Xbox 360 or PC.

---

Even if they entirely dropped the PS2, fixing the core engine of the game would be a colossal task in itself. That's not mentioning the ton of crap that also needs to be fixed in this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

Erm...no. The reason the other modern MMOs failed was more due to them releasing subpar or incomplete games with broken/unbalanced/poorly-designed systems under the impression we're still in 1997 where players will stick to the game despite its flaws until the kinks are worked out (a design model that doesn't work anymore with so many MMORPGs out there on the market).

I'll spare you the litany of modern MMORPGs from the last 5 years that flopped for stupid reasons that could have been avoided if the developers had not subscribed to the above-mentioned model.

---

More contributing factors, yes, but if a game copies off other games without bringing nothing new to the table either, it will get no where, many games seem to do just that, copy other games gameplay while messing some things up, failing to make any unique qualities which would make it different, and leave it boring.

Quote:

---

Even if they entirely dropped the PS2, fixing the core engine of the game would be a colossal task in itself. That's not mentioning the ton of crap that also needs to be fixed in this game.

---

Yes, but certain things are specifically limited by PS2 I would think, such as the inventory only being able to go to 80. It would take work to work around if they removed PS2, but it would be doable, instead we seem to be stuck with getting more side-inventories with 80 space rather than our real inventory going up to 100, 150, 200, and so on.

The difference between WoW and FFXI is that they change WoW a lot. The game systems change a lot in between expansions. Each expansion is pretty much a sequel to the game. They adapt a lot of things put in a lot of new features the game has evolved greatly since it was first released. They adopt features that are seen in other games to improve their own game. They have over 8m subs still, thus have the money. But its on PC so it can take advantage of what newer hardware can do.

FFXI being a PS2 game, the PC version is trying to emulate the PS2 game there can not be too much advancement with the game. They will always be limited on what they can do with FFXI because at its heart it is a PS2 game and it has to work within those restraints.

I don't think there is anything wrong with FFXI in the way the item system works. My only beef with the game is the dwindling player base and the difficulty of finding people to do stuff with. This problem was solved since almost every modern MMO has adopted a dungeon/raid finder system. This was first invited by Blizzard but later copied in many games because people want to get in be able to find players easy and play the game. FFXIV has a duty finder matchmaking system where you can queue up and do whatever dungeon or raid you want. Something like that in FFXI would require such an overhaul that SE probably won't bother with it. More likely they would want you to move to FFXIV.

I know stuff like adding a dungeon finder in FFXI is pretty far off the realm of possibility due to the amount of programming it would take. However even some recruitment forums would help with find people. You can /yell for a linkshell, but then you most likely get harassed by people for spamming the /yell channel. Latly I seen people having dumb arguments and fights in /yell. Trying to find a linkshell in public game chat channels will most likly end in getting told how fail or bad at the game you are, or to shut or something similar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peepiopi

Do you know why other MMOs have certain similar elements? Money. It is a business after all. There are some game elements that are popular among gamers; and developers want to integrate those, because they attract subscribers. More subscribers means more development, and better maintenance. For example, whether you like (or even played) the game or not, WoW is the most successful MMO in history because Brack recognized that, and the today's version of WOW has improved drastically from it's debut in 2004.

Very little has changed for FFXI, even though it's practically the same age as wow, and it fell way behind because it didn't change. It has an endearing environment and great story, but it's still pretty much a graphical mud with insane grinds. That isn't that popular any more in today's gaming community, hence why they're changing.

Unlike you, I would love to see FFXI stick around for many more years, but to do that, they need to find new subscribers. You will be hardpressed to convince a developer to keep the game the way you like it, if it meant losing potential funding and profit.

---

You know what Blizzard did different from SE? They advertised their game. Even here, in my country with barely 5 million inhabitants in total, there were ads for WoW on the tv. I can go to any store here that sells pc/console games and the employees all know of WoW, but nobody's heard of FFXI.

If you really believe the current changes to FFXI will bring in new players in any significant number, then I don't know what to tell you. But I would suggest you dedicate a day or two to reading threads (in more than one section) on this forum and also on Ffxiah, and unless you're lying to yourself you will see the number of people unhappy about the current changes greatly outnumbers the people that are happy about them. Of course, not everybody reads forums, or post on them. But I personally know several players, on different servers, that have quit (or they're still playing only to pass the time till XIV's released) because of the current state of the game. And guess what - some of them don't own a single R/E/M.

I've played this game for 7 years. I have never taken a break, the longest I've gone without playing was after the earthquake in Japan when all servers were shut down. I've frequented FFXI forums on a daily basis (mainly Ffxiah, BG, and this forum after it was created) for 6 of those years. And I can assure you that nothing SE's done before in those 6 years has had a remotely similar impact on the players.

By the way, you still haven't answered my question so I'll ask again, rewording it a little:

Would it have hurt for SE to have set plans on how to upgrade R/E/Ms to still keep them relevant, in addition to implementing Delve and Delve weapons? You talk about keeping customers happy - wouldn't that have made everybody happy - both R/E/M owners and those that never had any intentions of making one? If they'd done that, people would still be doing both versions of salvage. People would still farm currency. People would still do ADL. People would still do VWNM. People would still do all of that, and not idle in Jeuno or Adoulin, waiting for the next plasm farm shout or 5 NM+Tojil shout. How could that possibly be a bad thing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demon6324236

More contributing factors, yes, but if a game copies off other games without bringing nothing new to the table either, it will get no where, many games seem to do just that, copy other games gameplay while messing some things up, failing to make any unique qualities which would make it different, and leave it boring.

---

Then you get into gritty stuff like what constitutes "new" and examples of stupidity like "calling anything with quested leveling a WoW clone".

I'm the odd man out, but I look for stuff that works, is balanced, is well thought-out and has room for growth where applicable. "Unique" is more like salad dressing: nice to have but not mandatory by any stretch of the imagination. You can slap enfeebling on a poorly-designed magic fencer and call the job "unique"; doesn't make it useful, good or workable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demon6324236

People who support it however, have given no good points as to why they should progress this way except 'but all of the other MMOs do it' to which I have to say, perhaps the reason this game still has people playing it after 10 years is because its not every other MMO...

---

The reason people stick around is because deep down the crazy amount of time wasted on this game prevents them from leaving.

I can give you a couple of reasons behind the change in design. First was to level the playing field with the new expansion, as is the case in a modern MMO. Yes, this involves obsoleting your l337 gear for the sake of keeping a leash on character progression while also creating a metric with which to balance encounters and content. This is notably the case with stuff that has procs and (in the case of FFXI) aftermaths and sphere effects.

As I mentioned, leveling the playing field means that you remove extra variables that would mess with either class/job balance or let people do/kill things in ways not intended. If you want a modern example of why you do this, Thunderfury in WoW had a damage proc that affected multiple targets; this made the weapon ideal for tanking lv60 content since the proc was affected by the hate modifiers that were native to tanks. There were cases of lv70 tanks that were still using Thunderfury instead of weapons relevant to TBC because the proc was that damn good. This forced Blizz to nerf the proc on Thunderfury because their design at the time focused on tanking niches (like paladin tanks tanking groups of mobs while warriors were more single-target tanks), and a weapon like Thunderfury rendered that design moot.

---------------------------

This being said, I'll admit the mistake was releasing Delve weapons early, though the whole design is faulty not because it's "bad" or because I don't like it. FFXI simply does not have the type of content to validate tier-based progression. You don't have multiple dungeons you can run to gear yourself up and obsolete the old expansion's gear. You don't have raids with even more powerful gear to repeat every week until you're decked out in epics. Instead you have fights with crappy RNG augments that are there solely for the sake of forcing repetition (Skirmish), a misreleased set of boss fights on a time limit (Delve) and a bunch of buyable gear with really poor job distributions (Bayld gear).

I don't know if going back to "here's a goal that'll take you two years to do if you play hardcore" is the answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

I don't think there is anything wrong with FFXI in the way the item system works. My only beef with the game is the dwindling player base and the difficulty of finding people to do stuff with. This problem was solved since almost every modern MMO has adopted a dungeon/raid finder system. This was first invited by Blizzard but later copied in many games because people want to get in be able to find players easy and play the game. FFXIV has a duty finder matchmaking system where you can queue up and do whatever dungeon or raid you want. Something like that in FFXI would require such an overhaul that SE probably won't bother with it. More likely they would want you to move to FFXIV.

---

I agree, LFG would be awesome for the game! But, I wouldn't say it's impossible for it to happen. If you remember back in Wrath of the Lich King, WoW had pretty much the same system as FFXI for group finding before it implemented LFG. SE is currently working on overhauling the entire UI for FFXI to optimize keyboard/mouse gameplay, which is a much bigger project. I could see some kind of LFG system going into FFXI. But like you said.. probably won't be for a loooong time.

@Demon.. I don't think that SE is resigning to let FFXI die out and let FFXIV be their only MMO cashcow. If that was the case, then they would not have announced the roadmap, and they wouldn't be putting the efforts into changing the game into a faster-paced and simpler "vertical" progression now. They're making efforts to get the game back into relevancy in today's MMO market, even though I think we all know that's going to be a huge uphill climb... To do that, there will need to be drastic changes. However, I can guarantee you that if they leave the game the way it has been for the last decade, the subscribership will continue to fall.

So just to reiterate, SE is going to do what is best for the company to make more money. That means they may pursue changes to appeal to the greater MMO community (including gamers new to FFXI), not just to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tamoa

By the way, you still haven't answered my question so I'll ask again, rewording it a little:

Would it have hurt for SE to have set plans on how to upgrade R/E/Ms to still keep them relevant, in addition to implementing Delve and Delve weapons? You talk about keeping customers happy - wouldn't that have made everybody happy - both R/E/M owners and those that never had any intentions of making one? If they'd done that, people would still be doing both versions of salvage. People would still farm currency. People would still do ADL. People would still do VWNM. People would still do all of that, and not idle in Jeuno or Adoulin, waiting for the next plasm farm shout or 5 NM+Tojil shout. How could that possibly be a bad thing?

---

I think SE will do what they're going to do, and I'm just going to play the game as long as I'm having fun. From a business perspective, I don't think that the "lateral" progression system was all that beneficial to the growth of the game in retrospect. Historically, the best items in the game had you going back and doing old game events like Dynamis and Salvage, when they could have focused more effort into making expansions and new game content more appealing. The unfortunate side effect is that players like you have gotten a little too attached to RME progression.

I think Tanaka had a backwards plan for the last decade, and Matsui is trying some new things to keep the game forward focused. So in short, yes. If you want my broader opinion, I think they shouldn't have raised the level cap from 90-99 until after Adoulin released, and they should have just left RMEs behind at that point. That way, more people would be focused in the new zones. That's just my 2 cents. I know you obviously feel differently.

There is an age old saying that says "You can't make everyone happy all the time". Whatever they do with the game, there will inevitably be someone here ranting just like some of the people in this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peepiopi

However, I can guarantee you that if they leave the game the way it has been for the last decade, the subscribership will continue to fall.

---

Look at the rate people left in the past, then look at the rate people are leaving now, the number grew quite a bit due to these changes.

Quote:

---

SE is going to do what is best for the company to make more money. That means they may pursue changes to appeal to the greater MMO community (including gamers new to FFXI), not just to you.

---

Yes I understand, you are saying they are abandoning the formula that the current player base is used to, thus alienating a great deal of its player base. They are doing all of this in hopes of increasing income by making an 11 year old game that gets no advertisements and is heard of by next to no one, more appealing to the majority of gamers who play MMOs. The only problem is, almost no one knows about this game anymore except those of us who play it, or know someone who plays it. Its for this reason that changing the game will do nothing to draw in players, especially when the trial is as horrid as it is, and turns people away more than it invites them in.



I comprehend what you are saying, I just also have the misfortune of seeing how stupid it sounds at the same time. I fail to see how you think this makes sense for any rational company, to me it sounds like they are changing the game up while losing people in droves. The rate of people joining is most likely lower, since the great majority of new players to FFXI join via recommendations, something people who are leaving will not be giving out.

The chances of this game growing a new player base out of thin air is so stupidly low its not worth the time to even consider it. Maybe if they advertised, had some reason for new players to come, did something to help people catch up, not just limited time Double XP or free Atma to help people start out, but real constant things people need in order to catch up easier, things might be different. But unless they really put effort into things like this, new players will not be popping up as fast as people are leaving, so money will be lost instead!

Now sure, not everyone is mad or quitting, but a great deal of people are. How many people used to do things before that now just afk because they cant get motivated enough to go out and do some content for gear because next update or 2, it will be trash again? How many people have made RME90~99s just to watch them go to waste after recent events, after spending months on them, not for a trophy, but for the best weapon? Like I said, not everyone is mad, but if this is seriously an attempt to get more money, they are doing an absolutely horrid job at it, and their line of thinking seems severely flawed.

Quote:

---

However, I can guarantee you that if they leave the game the way it has been for the last decade, the subscribership will continue to fall.

---

Of course players would still continue to dwindle because eventually every gets bored, and there aren't many new players cause FFXI isn't advertised at all. Hell i nearly sh*t myself when i saw I think it was a CoP or ToAU Commercial some odd years ago because its the first I'd ever seen since FFXI Was released. You think the campaign would drive itself as its one of, or THE, only MMO on the market that can be played on Consoles. But no, on advertisements at all.

So yes, the population would continue to fall, But right now, Its falling faster, or at least just lost a good chunk of its remaining players. I actually suspect a world merge may happen again in the near future. The game isn't going to just die cause of RME people leaving, or even those without RME going, none of us are naive enough to believe that. But what we do see is what all MMOs become, a sinking ship. FFXI Could sink for years after this, but the point is the population is dwindling, and increasing the rate of decay is not something they want to do.

P*ssing off a sizeable portion of their playerbase because of the RME99 obsoleting? Not a good direction. People who made 90-95 RME probably are the type who did it because its good enough and they like big numbers, they'll probably be able to adapt to these changes easier, people who made 99's did it because it was the best and they could feel proud of that. Afterglows are retarded no matter how you look at em.

Regardless, unlike some folk, some of us don't need a google search and a chart to understand the psychological and sometimes physical responses to a perceived negative change. But luckily for those of us who don't rely on Google as the word of god, we can comprehend that there are several different types of change and each should be evaluated separately and not all should be taken as acceptable. There are many changes both historically and happening right now that warrant more than a "Okay, I roll over and accept" approach. While FFXI doesn't quite reach the level of IRL/Historical changes on simple grounds its a game, I think my point is clear enough for most folk... Change isn't a flat, vacuum situation that can be approached the exact same way every single time with the exact same outcome.

When a Change is bad, it would be stupid to roll-over and accept it. If you do not fight against negative change, if you don't fight for something you enjoy, thats far worse in my eyes than following a line graph that doesn't apply to every situation.

So, After this much debate I have to wander if you're arguing for the sake of arguing or if you truly simply cannot understand how not all change should be taken bent over with cupped hands and open mouth like you're accustomed(Metaphorically speaking)... But not every change should be taken with the same attitude. Some changes you can just go "F**k it" to, like we have... Like say, Twilight Scythe changes... Others, like his drastic design direction change, should not.

-------Lost half my post due to a breaker flip, trying to repost it sucks. But the point I'm trying to make I hope is clear. Change isn't something you can address the same way every time, and sometimes a negative reaction to change is the right course of action.. and also no one thinks FFXI isn't going to dwindle, but if the game is going to die, it should go out the same way it came in, a unique MMO that offered a great niche experience for loyal customers the last 11 years... not an attempt at a grinderclone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tamoa

Would it have hurt for SE to have set plans on how to upgrade R/E/Ms to still keep them relevant, in addition to implementing Delve and Delve weapons?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peepiopi

in short, yes.

---

Really? No, I mean - really??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peepiopi

If you want my broader opinion, I think they shouldn't have raised the level cap from 90-99 until after Adoulin released, and they should have just left RMEs behind at that point. That way, more people would be focused in the new zones.

---

That's the whole point though - they didn't do that, they kept R/E/Ms relevant via magian trials all the way to level 99.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peepiopi

There is an age old saying that says "You can't make everyone happy all the time".

---

But keeping R/E/Ms relevant while still adding Delve gear would have made both "sides" in this discussion happy. Why would anyone that doesn't own a R/E/M be upset that those weapons were kept relevant when they can easily get a Delve weapon? It wouldn't affect them anyway.

We know many of you have been waiting with bated breath for the announcement of-which NPC was voted the most popular-NOPE! We want to know your plan for REM's and why you are not announcing anything new or having them in recent updates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richwood

We know many of you have been waiting with bated breath for the announcement of-which NPC was voted the most popular-NOPE! We want to know your plan for REM's and why you are not announcing anything new or having them in recent updates.

---

I would assume they are busy trying to fix SoA and make it a success first. Announcing anything without a sure answer would only cause conflicts. We know Skirmish updates is around the corner so hopefully after that DEV Team will have time to revise REM. that's my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daemon

I would assume they are busy trying to fix SoA and make it a success first. Announcing anything without a sure answer would only cause conflicts. We know Skirmish updates is around the corner so hopefully after that DEV Team will have time to revise REM. that's my opinion.

---

I also think that they are using the adoulin gear to test the waters to see what exactly they need to add/adjust on the REMs. (specifically the massive overhaul where some things got their potency doubled and pretty much every >99 gear got massive stat boosts along every stat... and now pretty much every >99 weapon has those fake skill levels on them... so I believe that these items are all the alpha-testing for changing the REMs to fit the new content: ie make them relevant.
"measure twice, cut once" and all that.)

Just be happy SE hasn't updated RME's yet. You want to wait until after the nest wave of Delve content so that RME's will be on par with that rather then them being left behind.

Tanaka had one vision of this game and it was a rather static one, hence the years of horizontal upgrades. It involved pouring untold hours into a system that involved heavy RNG rewards as a way to keep you paying sub fee's. That worked back when there wasn't much competition on the MMO market. Now the market is flooded with games and companies are constantly working out new ways to attract and keep player attention. It means SE needs to alter it's experience in order to attract new players and keep the current ones from jumping ship. This is what Matsui is in the process of doing. It's a giant reset button being pushed and it's going to be really hard.

SE needs to advertise FFXI now and create a system while "new" players start at level 75~90 with all the old "prerequisite" missions completed. Stuff like Sky / Sea access and all that. Currently a new player has entirely too much "old crap" they need to wade through to play with everyone else, this makes them get bored and severely limits your new subscriptions.

ahh well GTA V soon if no R/E/M by then atleast I have new time drain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

Just be happy SE hasn't updated RME's yet. You want to wait until after the nest wave of Delve content so that RME's will be on par with that rather then them being left behind.

Tanaka had one vision of this game and it was a rather static one, hence the years of horizontal upgrades. It involved pouring untold hours into a system that involved heavy RNG rewards as a way to keep you paying sub fee's. That worked back when there wasn't much competition on the MMO market. Now the market is flooded with games and companies are constantly working out new ways to attract and keep player attention. It means SE needs to alter it's experience in order to attract new players and keep the current ones from jumping ship. This is what Matsui is in the process of doing. It's a giant reset button being pushed and it's going to be really hard.

SE needs to advertise FFXI now and create a system while "new" players start at level 75~90 with all the old "prerequisite" missions completed. Stuff like Sky / Sea access and all that. Currently a new player has entirely too much "old crap" they need to wade through to play with everyone else, this makes them get bored and severely limits your new subscriptions.

---

If you look at it from a negative point of view then yeah. However the way I see it, Tanaka implemented a system that allow players who are ready for REM to set a pace and accomplish earning these items.

Unlike Delve where everyone can hop on the cookie train before it crumbles, REM separated the non casuals, casuals from the serious players. Or those who were at the moment in the game able to dedicate time to such a task.

Because of that everyone focused attention based on the peogession level of the player.

Rather than make all other content irrelevant or direct everyone's attention to 1 event, you had a choice.

VW and Delve takes that away and directs everyone's attention to that and speed progressing this content is unavoidable than REM.

By the way gaming industry is losing business to smartphones, rather than buy new consoles and pay $10-$100 per game. $99 cents for a quickie is what more adults are leaning to.

I've seen kids walking on the street with iPhones as if these are toys... Sad really..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

Just be happy SE hasn't updated RME's yet. You want to wait until after the nest wave of Delve content so that RME's will be on par with that rather then them being left behind.

Tanaka had one vision of this game and it was a rather static one, hence the years of horizontal upgrades. It involved pouring untold hours into a system that involved heavy RNG rewards as a way to keep you paying sub fee's. That worked back when there wasn't much competition on the MMO market. Now the market is flooded with games and companies are constantly working out new ways to attract and keep player attention. It means SE needs to alter it's experience in order to attract new players and keep the current ones from jumping ship. This is what Matsui is in the process of doing. It's a giant reset button being pushed and it's going to be really hard.

SE needs to advertise FFXI now and create a system while "new" players start at level 75~90 with all the old "prerequisite" missions completed. Stuff like Sky / Sea access and all that. Currently a new player has entirely too much "old crap" they need to wade through to play with everyone else, this makes them get bored and severely limits your new subscriptions.

---

I disagree.. the old system is just as hard to progress on your own and with people when you dont circumvent the game by using player created tactics.. The old part of the game is still apart of the game... lack of players is probably why this older content feels like it's a hassle to do..but in all reality.. It's not and it all still involves finding other people to do the content with in order to recieve rewards.. which is what this game is about..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Umichi

circumvent the game by using player created tactics

---

Firstly, what other kind of tactics are there?



Secondly, what kind of tactics are you talking about even? Stun locking? The simple truth of things like that, which are the only thing I can think of you would call 'circumventing the game', is that SE made TP moves which are to overpowered to be allowed, I mean, the person who thought a TP move with Doom, Weakness, and high DMG was a good idea really needs to quit their job if they think its a fair attack. The thing is, we see more of them every time a new race exists too, I mean even now, Tojil and Muyingwa both use a move which causes Weakness, Dakuwaqa uses 2 moves which cause instant death, and Muyingwa even has a move which gives Zombie Curse. Its safe to say, all of these things are fairly overpowered, I mean, so far as I know Weakness was made to make death matter more, not to be some super enfeeble, instant Death in both conal and AoE forms are highly deadly, as death would suggest, making it impossible to survive the attack if it gets off, and making it impossible to heal someone even thought the same attack that causes the status deals a nice bit of damage, are all very overpowered. So if this is the kind of thing your talking about when people 'circumvent the game' then I wonder, how would you take on these attacks in an event you also have to kill 5 other high powered NMs and then take these down all within 45 minutes?



Also, so far as why old content seems like a hassle, its often also because the rewards, which you admit are what the game is all about, are fairly lackluster in most cases, which leaves people feeling as though its not worth the time. This is especially a problem in some areas where travel is particularly annoying or there are 10 cut-scenes before an actually involving part of what your doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daemon

By the way gaming industry is losing business to smartphones, rather than buy new consoles and pay $10-$100 per game. $99 cents for a quickie is what more adults are leaning to.

---

That's not the only reason why. Its also how long games last, few games will last you longer alone than $60s worth of smaller games will. If you buy 60 $1 games which you spend 3 hours playing in total on average, it means you would have to spend a total of 180 hours on a $60 game to get your monies worth. Some games, like CoD, Halo, or Battlefield, fill this time more than others due to multiplayer, as do MMOs, other games like Skyrim can do the same. But then you come to games like Final Fantasy XIII which you play through 1 time for 30 hours or less and beat it, never to come back, in those cases the game was literally worth $10 for the time you played it, not a worthy investment if you go by the ratio of time entertained vs money paid.

At the end of the day phone games work well because they do not use all the money to make it look shiny and pretty with super duper graphics, they make it a game, make it fun, and make money from it for a cheap price. They also can work with much smaller teams of people, and take less time to make their games, after all, its a phone game, not a full blown 3D super graphic spectacle where it costs them so much to make the game they have to charge $60 a copy to make profit rather than lose money. Its not just because people want a small game they can beat in 10 minutes, but also because most of the time those games actually give you more for your money. I mean on Xbox Live I ended up buying a few different Indie games for only $1 a piece, Breath of Death VII for instance is an old style RPG, looks basic, but is very fun, has a short story of sorts, funny characters, references to many other RPGs like FFX and such, but all in all, I would buy 60 games of its quality before I would buy 1 $60 RPG sold in stores simply because even though it does not look as good, doesn't have as good a story, or anything like that, it will entertain me more than 1/60th of a RPG sold in stores.