On Red Mage melee...

My Sanguine in Dynamis Sandy iirc hits for 800-1100 depending on the monster.

Then again...it's always double dark weather in there and I use an obi :P
(My Sanguine set is pretty bad though since I essentially just use my AE set with just a different body)

Sang blade doesn't nearly make up for the loss in DoT. Ofc the best option would be getting both but alas, it was not meant to be as far as SE is concerned.

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I'm not really knowledgeable on RDM melee, But i think Evisceration would be the better WS than Sanguine Blade for pure damage. Not including survivability. I'm working on the Assumption the RDM is trying to do his fair share of Damage.

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While going the physical route will probably lead to Evisceration's favor, it's possible to gear and atma yourself to allow SB to break 2.5k consistently. As a job that evades like a brick, SB's utility aspect of self-curing might be more beneficial in the long term since you can eliminate the need to cast shadows, stoneskins, and even cures when you're soaking up 1k+ HP per WS. Such is pretty much how I handled the lizard phase of my WS% sword for brewing purposes.

Either way, the downside of the SB build is your crit rate goes down, and obviously we're giving up /NIN. Downside of Evisc is even with RR and such, you could still get some stinker WS that'd barely break 1k, but you could also get lucky and break 3k. Better gear and such will steer you toward the latter, but if you're not in a situation where someone else can watch your back while you focus on damage, again, SB might be the better bet.

Outside, hitting around 1k with SB should be doable. Evisc could spike higher, but this is also where our juggling act in ATK/ACC/STR and such in the WS phase can catch up with us without cruor buffs picking up the slack.

Well who knows. They said there are weapon skill adjustments coming. It really wouldn't surprise me if that was one of them because let's be honest. Getting AE with crap dagger selection while NOT getting Sanguine natively is BS lol

We can only hope, but I'm looking at that about as optimistically as I am new enfeebles. Until SE tells us more, it's hard to get excited.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

I have a BRD mule that would outparse you guys and yet this topic still continues.

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This wins the thread.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

(Slow is really only so useful up until the point that your DDs can recast Utsu between swings.)

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If you would stand in the back and do your job, your melees could sub SAM and WAR and not be terrible.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

If you would stand in the back and do your job, your melees could sub SAM and WAR and not be terrible.

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And this is why people fail at voidwatch.

People just expect to go at it like abyssea where you just send DDs at the mob and a whm spams cure 5.

A little survivability goes a long way especially when there's no rush to kill anything since you want some time to actually proc mobs anyway.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

And this is why people fail at voidwatch.

People just expect to go at it like abyssea where you just send DDs at the mob and a whm spams cure 5.

A little survivability goes a long way especially when there's no rush to kill anything since you want some time to actually proc mobs anyway.

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Kam and I do voidwatch together, we have an ochain pld, and kam goes nin or war/nin for VW stuff(sub sam if we have strong support on or if its a T1/2 VWNM). Seriously, we proc, I'm the whm, i can still spam cures, i just need to let the pld cure himself for hate because unlike other DDs, pld can't hold hate with just DoT/WS they actually have to try. RDM can proc just fine from the back lines.

I do not sub ninja on war, ever.
I also dual box my own WHM, and die a lot, but that would happen if I was subbing NIN too, so it doesn't matter.

So this thread ended nicely after people were unable to budge on the arguments they presented and lost.

Then it starts all over because someone decides to completely ignore the lost argument and bring up a new one?

What you're saying boils down to "Any DD contribution is better than no DD contribution as long as it does not negatively affect my casting role", is this correct? Unfortunately, that statement is not true, especially outside Abyssea. Landing Enfeebles is not the same as landing strong Enfeebles. Staves are not, and have never been, the end-all-be-all weapon for casting spells because, as far as Enfeebles are concerned, they simply add Accuracy. And you're right, if your accuracy is capped, you aren't benefiting from staves. Except Surya's. Surya's is awesome and if you are healing at all ever, the loss of that staff is a huge deal.

But you know what you would be benefiting from? Wands. You can add 17 MND in your main/sub slot in place of your swords, which drastically affects the potency of your dMND based enfeebles. The argument that "Any slow is good enough as long as people don't die" is honestly folly, especially when you take multipliers into account like Saboteur.

Idling in TP gear also prevents you from idling in Refresh gear. Outside Abyssea, the loss in MP adds up significantly over time. Not only are you losing MP recovery (1 earring, 2 body, 1 head, 1 legs, 1 hands/feet, 6/tick, or 1,000 MP per Convert assuming maxed merits), but you're spending more MP by taking damage and curing yourself.

If you need all of that MP on content harder than Abyssea, you should never be melee'ing. If you don't need all that MP on content harder than Abyssea, you should be burning the excess off in Nukes and doing more damage, more safely, than if you were melee'ing while still maintaining full casting potency on all of your other spells.

You can come in here and complain all you want about how "You know RDM Melee sucks", but the fact of the matter is that people here are claiming that it does not right now. Do not dare to call us trolls when we are simply debating point of fact with people who, frankly, made the ridiculous claims first.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Because we need more macc?

Seriously, if we can land it, we're going to land it with or without a staff.
From there the extra mind froma weapon slot is going to add like what? .3% more slow?

(Slow is really only so useful up until the point that your DDs can recast Utsu between swings.)

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Someone's never fought a monster outside of Abyssea

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

this has honestly made me curious... what would you parse against at 90? sand sweepers are probably the most common mob but you can pretty much 1-shot them with a good ws.. and anything in abyssea will have varying levels as you go..

anybody that parses on carbuncle? my rdm hasn't been parsed since the colibri days, back on gilgamesh (i actually won, but it wasn't a real test to prove anything, it was just some guy who ran parser all the time. long story short the odds were unfairly in my favor, and i admit that.)

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if you ever want to parse lemme know 90 or 75 im able to gear up either since it seems the other guy hasn't done it yet on rdm.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

Someone's never fought a monster outside of Abyssea

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Someone's missing the fact that it's pretty easy to cap our enfeebles with or without a wand.

I mean when I first saw the Esto neck piece I just facepalmed because I realized that in 99% of situations it would be virtually worthless due to how easy it was to cap spells. Monsters really don't have high enough mnd in general to pose a problem.

GG is right about one weapon and that's the Cure Staff. That's a weapon that's slightly hard to get around. At the same time though we aren't asking to melee on every monster in the game. If there's something that is mean enough that it would warrant stepping back and using a cure staff that's not a problem.

We aren't and have never been asking to melee on HNMs. If somethings dicky enough that a blue mage has to step back and cannonball spam like the ACP crystal that's fine. At the same time it would be SLIGHTLY nice to have the bar for acceptable meleeing raised slightly higher then just exp.

There are plenty of non HNM level mobs that would be nice to have some level of acceptable melee. A common motto has been "Melee fodder, Magic bosses" Fodder doesn't apply to just exp, there are plenty of NMs that most people would dump into the fodder category. It would be nice to receive some level of buff at least to accommodate those.

Hyrist also mentioned that someone told him to not even bother with that parse until he has an Evi set for 75.

So basically this:

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Originally Posted by Aurara

No it doesn't rdm shouldn't be meleeing anything except trash exp mobs(and even then those die in like 1 WS so whats the point?)

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I dare say everyone is in agreement then. Except for the people who very specifically are talking about RDM on stronger NMs and HNMs. Which is the point.

Also, dMND is not that easy to cap. On things we're 15 levels higher than they were designed for? Sure. In Abyssea? Sure. In level 90+ content? No way in hell. Honestly, Voidwatch is the only content worth comparing anything on because it's the only non-Abyssea content that's actually fit for our level.

It's really not.

To cap slow II you need a dMnd of 75.

Most monsters don't really have much more mnd then your own base stats. Monsters have never had particularly high base stats with a few exceptions like Kirin and his like 120 Int.

I mean from there if even my gimpy mnd set can give me +100 Mnd it really shouldn't be that difficult to cap.

I mean you mention abyssea, but I wouldn't be surprised if I could cap most of my enfeebles naked in there.

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Originally Posted by Thunderlips

However then you are negatively impacting your melee by using M.Acc weapons instead of STR+ using those weapons. You do lose the bonus MND+ from weapon/shield to buffs as well as MND based debuffs. Also no cure potency+ staff/club for curing?

Pretty sure a HQ/magican staff is going to outdo the +INT and MAB you get off the dual wielded swords as well.

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Obviously the staves give more for spellcatsing, that's part of the trade-off(and problem). I'm not all that worried about staff MAB for nukes; RDM nukes are nothing to write home about, even when fully buffed. They're pretty much just there to proc, or for helping with azure lights. I made the MAB swords as an experiment, and because the trial paths are so easy to do(made 3 MAB weps in a week just for fun). But even then, if I'm dual-wielding them, they're giving me +18 INT and +20 MAB... along with each sword having a DMG of 54 for starters, before adding en-spells. A pair of M.Acc swords gives +30 M. Acc and +150 mp if I wanted to. So yeah, not missing out all that much. Still need to make a STR Shamshir though, but sort of holding out on seeing if I can get help on an Almace or OAT Khanda.

And no, no potency staff/club for curing. I've started one though, because I've seen you can do most of the trials quick and easy in Nyzule Isle. Just haven't got around to it yet.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

But you know what you would be benefiting from? Wands. You can add 17 MND in your main/sub slot in place of your swords, which drastically affects the potency of your dMND based enfeebles. The argument that "Any slow is good enough as long as people don't die" is honestly folly, especially when you take multipliers into account like Saboteur.

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If that's the case, we can get +18 MND from magian swords, so thanks for the idea!

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Idling in TP gear also prevents you from idling in Refresh gear. Outside Abyssea, the loss in MP adds up significantly over time. Not only are you losing MP recovery (1 earring, 2 body, 1 head, 1 legs, 1 hands/feet, 6/tick, or 1,000 MP per Convert assuming maxed merits), but you're spending more MP by taking damage and curing yourself.

If you need all of that MP on content harder than Abyssea, you should never be melee'ing. If you don't need all that MP on content harder than Abyssea, you should be burning the excess off in Nukes and doing more damage, more safely, than if you were melee'ing while still maintaining full casting potency on all of your other spells.

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Good thing we have this handy-dandy spell that gives us 6mp/tic regardless of gear. Refresh gear just adds even more mp. And if we're idling anyway, a simple gear swap to refresh gear solves the "Idle in TP gear" problem you pose. Seriously, if we're just idling, why would we idle in tp gear? Did you mean "tp phase" and not "idle"?

Lastly, my ws's do similar damage as my nukes, more most of the time even. The extra damage during tp phase in addition to WS damage is a fair bit more DoT than just sitting back nuking, blowing through all my mp(that could've been used to cure and buff).

... Don't nuke in MAB swords. Not even Blus bother with Macc swords because they're just that much of a waste. Nice experiment, but you wasted your effort.

Your WS do similar damage to your nukes.

Your nukes are nothing to write home about.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

Your WS do similar damage to your nukes.

Your nukes are nothing to write home about.

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I think I said that, exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Rayik

...RDM nukes are nothing to write home about,

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Yep, I sure did.



This is the most redundant talking-in-circles discussion I think I have ever taken part in.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

... Don't nuke in MAB swords. Not even Blus bother with Macc swords because they're just that much of a waste. Nice experiment, but you wasted your effort.

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Says you. Would be nice if we had a magic/elemental ws though...

Says anyone who knows how Elemental Affinity/TPing for damage works... instead of nuking with a good nuking mainhand, or meleeing in a good melee offhand, you're using something that generally sucks at both, half-assing it at its finest.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Says anyone who knows how Elemental Affinity/TPing for damage works... instead of nuking with a good nuking mainhand, or meleeing in a good melee offhand, you're using something that generally sucks at both, half-assing it at its finest.

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Ah, the mantra of the RDM. Let us remember these words...

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Ah, the mantra of the RDM. Let us remember these words...

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The mantra of the gimps who half-ass for sure, but I can assure you i half-ass nothing on RDM.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

The mantra of the gimps who half-ass for sure, but I can assure you i half-ass nothing on RDM.

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No, you're just a WHM in a fancy red hat. For all the negativity you spew on these threads, hearing you talk about being a RDM actually surprises me.

EDIT: As an addendum, really, just being a RDM you are nothing but half-assed. We all are. Anything RDM can do, any other job in the game can do better. Even enfeebles, BLU and WHM can shut us down with those. Heck, enfeeble's aren't even necessary in most current content.

So really, RDM is nothing but half-ass at it's finest; it's just which role you are choosing to half-ass when you play.

Why would you use a MAB sword when you can use a magic defense down sword.

You can get some ridiculous numbers with that thing.

Seriously, Blms practically have a mini-orgasm when that effect is up.

Of course to actually make it worthwhile you have to pretty much single wield it and drop your enspell.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Why would you use a MAB sword when you can use a magic defense down sword.

You can get some ridiculous numbers with that thing.

Seriously, Blms practically have a mini-orgasm when that effect is up.

Of course to actually make it worthwhile you have to pretty much single wield it and drop your enspell.

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I honestly hadn't thought of that one, good call! *likes*

Not sure if serious...

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Originally Posted by Rayik

No, you're just a WHM in a fancy red hat. For all the negativity you spew on these threads, hearing you talk about being a RDM actually surprises me.

EDIT: As an addendum, really, just being a RDM you are nothing but half-assed. We all are. Anything RDM can do, any other job in the game can do better. Even enfeebles, BLU and WHM can shut us down with those. Heck, enfeeble's aren't even necessary in most current content.

So really, RDM is nothing but half-ass at it's finest; it's just which role you are choosing to half-ass when you play.

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So i halfass RDM is keeping up refresh/haste cycles, debuffing mobs, making sure people are buffed if they get dispelled, helping cure DDs that the whm can't hit at once?

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Originally Posted by Aurara

So i halfass RDM bu keeping up refresh/haste cycles, debuffing mobs, making sure people are buffed if they get dispelled, helping cure DDs that the whm can't hit at once?

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And aside from Refresh, how is it that the WHM can't do all the above? Why can't the WHM hit those DD's and you somehow can?

EDIT: Oh wait, WHM can just /rdm and get Resfresh 1 AND Convert too. So yeah, how are you out-doing the WHM again?

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Originally Posted by Rayik

And aside from Refresh, how is it that the WHM can't do all the above? Why can't the WHM hit those DD's and you somehow can?

EDIT: Oh wait, WHM can just /rdm and get Resfresh 1 AND Convert too. So yeah, how are you out-doing the WHM again?

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Maybe to save them the trouble of having to refresh/cure/haste every single person? Really, Refresh2>refresh1 and /sch>/rdm for whm so your point is moot again. You would really expect the whm to cure/haste/refresh every person on an HNM fight so that the RDM could hit the mob with his sword? I must have forgotten the part where RDM can addle/slow2/para2, you know simple things that dont mean anything. Leaving all the haste/cure/refresh duty to the whm is pretty stupid, having another person to share hasting is pretty nice for events like voidwatch.

Edit: I never said I would out-do WHM, do you take me for a fool?

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Maybe to save them the trouble of having to refresh/cure/haste every single person? Really, Refresh2>refresh1 and /sch>/rdm for whm so your point is moot again. You would really expect the whm to cure/haste/refresh every person on an HNM fight so that the RDM could hit the mob with his sword? I must have forgotten the part where RDM can addle/slow2/para2, you know simple things that dont mean anything. Leaving all the haste/cure/refresh duty to the whm is pretty stupid, having another person to share hasting is pretty nice for events like voidwatch.

Edit: I never said I would out-do WHM, do you take me for a fool?

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Anything you can do, a 2nd WHM can do better. In this role, you are a half-assed WHM at best; even with the best gear and skills, a specialist job can cast circles around you. Heck a SCH, which is yet another hybrid, can even -aga most of those buffs you cycle through.

Weren't we just having this go-round on the subject of melee?

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Originally Posted by Rayik

Anything you can do, a 2nd WHM can do better. In this role, you are a half-assed WHM at best; even with the best gear and skills, a specialist job can cast circles around you. Heck a SCH, which is yet another hybrid, can even -aga most of those buffs you cycle through.

Weren't we just having this go-round on the subject of melee?

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So whm can keep mobs slow2/para2'd? A 2nd whm is hardly needed unless its dualboxed, but then again you like arguing in circles to try and prove a point.

Edit: I forgot the 34 DT phalanx that rdm gives, woops! Let's not forget that out of abyssea RDM can still compete with whm for cures and is very useful for backup cures.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

So whm can keep mobs slow2/para2'd? A 2nd whm is hardly needed unless its dualboxed, but then again you like arguing in circles to try and prove a point.

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You see many shouts in PJ for a RDM to para2/slow2 a NM? Really? How am I arguing in circles? Yes, we're going in circles because you are contradicting yourself. My original argument was that a RDM can contribute to dealing damage(but not replace a DD), and you came out swinging like I just insulted the Pope. You argue that a RDM can contribute to buffing and curing(but not replace a WHM). See where I'm going with this? We're saying the same thing.

RDM are the ultimate contributers/support job. RDM fills gaps in parties, but can do very little to stand on it's own.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Edit: I forgot the 34 DT phalanx that rdm gives, woops! Let's not forget that out of abyssea RDM can still compete with whm for cures and is very useful for backup cures.

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And WHM can add a Stoneskin effect with it's cures. Outside of Abyssea a BLM can back up cure just as well(psst-blm can get cure4 with /whm too). What's your point again?

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Originally Posted by Rayik

And WHM can add a Stoneskin effect with it's cures. Outside of Abyssea a BLM can back up cure just as well(psst-blm can get cure4 with /whm too)What's your point again?

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No...blm can't cure just as well as RDM less Fastcast/poor MP management ability makes its very difficult for a blm/whm(with inferior subjob to boot)to cure DDs.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

No...blm can't cure just as well as RDM less Fastcast/poor MP management ability makes its very difficult for a blm/whm(with inferior subjob to boot)to cure DDs.

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If we're talking back-up cure, sure. BLM can back up a main healing WHM no prob. Main healing? Nope, BLM can't do it. But if your RDM is just back-up healing in that situation, where is the rest of your attention? Enfeebling? Sure, you can cast a couple and given enough potency gear, last a pretty good amount of time. What are you doing during while they are still in effect? You stand there. I melee.

I stand there and watch for enfeebs on the melees so i can remove them asap, you get hit by said enfeebs and are unable to do anything because you're /nin and can't take them off yourself after you echo drop yourself. Seriously, rdm shouldn't be meleeing because you feed unnecessary amounts of TP, and usually neglect from your duties, which i can assure you is not meleeing the mob because you think you're helping.

If a blm is healing it means he was too goddamned stupid to nuke so that the mob would be dead already.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

I stand there and watch for enfeebs on the melees so i can remove them asap, you get hit by said enfeebs and are unable to do anything because you're /nin and can't take them off yourself after you echo drop yourself. Seriously, rdm shouldn't be meleeing because you feed unnecessary amounts of TP, and usually neglect from your duties, which i can assure you is not meleeing the mob because you think you're helping.

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You're assuming an awful lot with this one. Going as far as to decide my subjob for me, yikes. I agree on the TP feed thing, though. RDM melee is still not a great solution in this game by any means, it needs a tweak. But, that's all it needs; just a nudge from the Devs and we could be really viable. BLU does it, the potential is there, just barely out of RDM's reach.

But again, you stand there, when you could be doing something else to contribute and still watch for status. I personally keep a ton of chat filters on, so my log isn't all cluttered and I can see status changes easier.