Level 99 Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and WoE Weapons

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Players can choose to complete the afterglow step now and then complete the additional new quests, or complete the new quests without unlocking the afterglow for a weapon to upgrade it. All the upgraded legendary arms, except for Ergon weapons, will have an afterglow effect.

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Thank you for further clarification.

I am still extremely dissatisfied with this. I am not happy that I will be forced to complete an excessively arduous trial for an unwanted trophy effect if I wish to use any special weapons in the manner that they were designed. As such I am unlikely to participate in this content unless these plans are changed.

I understand that there are problems releasing extra trials. However, my personal belief is that the sacrifices being made with the current solution are not appropriate.

Perhaps, but I can't stop feeling like they're saying "afterglow was a mistake" a mistake we (the players) are going to have to pay for.
And it may not necessarily be us, the ones that didn't afterglow. One of the parties is going to be heavily boned, that is one thing I am sure of.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

For Relic, Mythic, Empyrean and Ergon weapons, players will be able to upgrade these weapons even if you have not unlocked their afterglows. If a weapon has had its afterglow unlocked, the amount of resources required to upgrade these weapons in the future will be eased.

Players can choose to complete the afterglow step now and then complete the additional new quests, or complete the new quests without unlocking the afterglow for a weapon to upgrade it. All the upgraded legendary arms, except for Ergon weapons, will have an afterglow effect.

The reason for adding afterglow to all these weapons is that we want to use the space allotted to the Trial of the Magians system to allow for the possibility of expansion in the future.

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Short version: We've decided to take the excessively long time sink version of a long but managable time sink, and apply that excessively long time sink to everyone with a relic weapon instead. Enjoy your new time sinks, everyone.

Seriously, this needs to change. Most players skipped afterglows because the requirements for them are insane. I personally spent all the gil I had just to buy the ADL items needed for just the normal version. Now you're telling us we have to do this extended, excessive work just to make our weapons we've already invested substantial time into worthwhile. Why do the devs not see a problem with this?

The reasoning here is not so great. If you need to expand things in the future, use some other system than Trial of the Magians for it. I'm totally fine with it taking longer to implement. Just don't force us to do a ridiculous amount of extra work just to bring our weapons back to where they should have been all along.

At least they clarified that we won't have to go through the existing Afterglow trial in order to upgrade our non-afterglow weapons. As long as the new requirements are significantly more reasonable, that would be great. I don't believe that everyone should be able to complete the upgrade an hour after the patch goes live. It should be somewhat of a time sink, that's all any game is after all, just as long it is not completely unreasonable and can be cleared by players that don't spend 24/7 online.

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Originally Posted by dasva

Let's see that OF was exactly what I said the whole is bad which is incredibly unclear asking for clarification that SE hasn't given . That BGwiki entry comes from the bg forum entry that again is the same brew is bad. And the ffxiah again is saying the same thing except the one post you want to single out because it says what you want it to but later posts show that isn't entirely correct. Specifically dame like most words in any language have multiple related meanings which is even more evident when translating between languages

So 4 links that basically just repeat the brew is bad I already mentioned.... So while it could mean you can't do it, it could mean you shouldn't or it's bad to use it. All of it only on the Japanese client which makes it somewhat suspect to begin with as being an actual requirement instead of some kind of general warning or flavor. Like perhaps SE is trying to give a mild reproach for doing it the easy way with a tsk tsk that's bad player-chan. So we don't "know" it wont work we suspect it wont work. We will know soon enough though with these crazy campaigns letting us get tons of slit

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That's just wishful thinking on your part. Your reasoning for it being included in the text makes no sense whatsoever. SE wouldn't have included it in the text without some very good reason, namely, you aren't allowed to use it. Any other reason falls short of being legitimate as SE wouldn't have bothered to put it in there in the first place. And yes, we will "know" it for sure as soon as someone goes and gets 11 mil silt and brews one of the NMs they haven't killed yet.

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Originally Posted by Zekander

At least they clarified that we won't have to go through the existing Afterglow trial in order to upgrade our non-afterglow weapons. As long as the new requirements are significantly more reasonable, that would be great. I don't believe that everyone should be able to complete the upgrade an hour after the patch goes live. It should be somewhat of a time sink, that's all any game is after all, just as long it is not completely unreasonable and can be cleared by players that don't spend 24/7 online.

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But they won't do that, because it would be unfair to the 10 players that actually went through the torture of getting afterglows.

Should those players get screwed over Alhanelem?

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Originally Posted by larrymc

If you look at the stats of the new weapons (well the 4 they teased to us) they put the newly upgraded weapons right back at the very top of the weapon hierarchy again.

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People in my linkshell have been mentioning the same, I may be looking in the wrong direction here (Playonline site/FFXI Youtube channel) but I can't find it.
It's probably somewhere in the Japanese area of these forums, but since my Japanese is limited to reading kana and ordering food and drinks, chances are I won't find it that easy.
Mind sharing the link?

They only showed us pictures of the 4 RME swords upgraded to their new form, with stats and everything. It was during one of the latest Freshly Picked Vana'diel sessions.
Seeing behind things, they are trying to offer a long-term content (that will keep players busy for a long time) minimizing the resources effort on their side to produce it.
On one hand I find this understandable giving their limited resources, on the other hand it makes me very unsatisfied because I feel almost tricked.

This solution won't make the players with normal RME happy, it won't make the players with Afterglow happy. Who exactely is going to be happy from going on this direction? I'd dare to say quite a very limited number of players.



At the end of the day it all comes down to how hard the trial for "normal" RME will be.
Is it going to be Afterglow-like? Majority of us expects it to be, rightfully, easier than that. But how much easier? That's the big question that's gonna change how this solution they insist to pursue head on will really be perceived by players.


Oh and about RME being top weapons again, I don't think anybody was *demanding* that (there are pros and cons in such a scenario, after all). I'm sure the majority of players were just asking for RME weapons to become relevant/viable again, not necessarily the best. The large majority of RME weapons aren't in such a position atm, aside a few exceptions (not counting those who have a niche use because of properties other than damage-related ones, of course)

I'm willing to wait and see what the requirements to upgrade are going to be before I brandish my pitchfork but as people have pointed out, SE are risking annoying a bulk of their playerbase to satisfy a minority of players who spent millions of gil on a minor upgrade. So now years down the line they get an advantage by getting these top tier weapons not only a lot easier but potentially weeks ahead of the majority of the player base if the requirements are particularly daunting.

Not to forget that some of these afterglow weapons would have been achieved by either illegitemate or now closed off means, fishbotting Haks, chocobo blinkers and the big daddy of them all, the Salvage pos hacking exploit which got some people millions of gil and a slap on the wrist because it was their first ban.

What I said will certainly get me banned, so let's rephrase a little...

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Originally Posted by Tidis

I'm willing to wait and see what the requirements to upgrade are going to be before I brandish my pitchfork but as people have pointed out, SE are risking annoying a bulk of their playerbase to satisfy a minority of players who spent millions of gil on a minor upgrade. So now years down the line they get an advantage by getting these top tier weapons not only a lot easier but potentially weeks ahead of the majority of the player base if the requirements are particularly daunting.

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Square does not care about English opinions, at all. Not even one. No one can theoretically be happy about this upgrade. It exists for the sole purpose of being the largest time sink they could come up with on short notice. The people without glows are going to have a rather daunting task, that will take the rich 10 minutes and the casual a life time. The people with afterglows should be FURIOUS. But no one cares about Pchan's opinion, and he's the only one that actually has an afterglow, right? (lol) ((underflows are so lame)). Their special snowflake status is being shit upon.

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Originally Posted by Tidis

Not to forget that some of these afterglow weapons would have been achieved by either illegitemate or now closed off means, fishbotting Haks, chocobo blinkers and the big daddy of them all, the Salvage pos hacking exploit which got some people millions of gil and a slap on the wrist because it was their first ban.

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This has nothing to really do with anything. 99% of all R/M/E weapons in the beginning were obtained @ 75 the exact same way (there was always that one crazy THF stealing 24/7 to fund the first Mandau on each server that earned it without cheating.) . 100% of Idris and Epoliatry were obtained the exact same way. Every. Single. Idris/Epiolitry was only able to be made from programming. The grind was absurd, and not a single person earned without buying HP bayld from someone who made them in that manner. ~50% of Afterglows were actually NOT obtained that way, they were underflowed. (irrelevant arguement)

Point is cheating is a thing. It's always gonna be a thing. Afterglow is frivolous. If you want something to complain about, the only thing you have any ability to do so upon would be how terrible afterglow effects are. If a party of 6 people all have afterglows, there is actually zero point in anyone having afterglows, because they don't stack (do they?). And how UGLY the red glow is, and how PLAIN the white glow is. The blue glow is aight.

Spolier: The first Aeonics will be made due to people cheating too.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

People in my linkshell have been mentioning the same, I may be looking in the wrong direction here (Playonline site/FFXI Youtube channel) but I can't find it.
It's probably somewhere in the Japanese area of these forums, but since my Japanese is limited to reading kana and ordering food and drinks, chances are I won't find it that easy.
Mind sharing the link?

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Here is the link.
https://youtu.be/WlWMHIFUj0k?t=33m9s

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Originally Posted by Daisansha

That's just wishful thinking on your part. Your reasoning for it being included in the text makes no sense whatsoever. SE wouldn't have included it in the text without some very good reason, namely, you aren't allowed to use it. Any other reason falls short of being legitimate as SE wouldn't have bothered to put it in there in the first place. And yes, we will "know" it for sure as soon as someone goes and gets 11 mil silt and brews one of the NMs they haven't killed yet.

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Maybe it's just negative thinking otherwise. As far as reasoning... aside from the fact that most the text in the game that SE "bothers to put in the first place" is pure flavor you could make the same argument in reverse. That SE wouldn't have failed to include to give everyone the warning if it in fact was a requirement especially with a steep cost and then also fail to respond to questions about it.

Regardless my point isn't that it definitely can or can't be done. Just that as of right now while we have reason to believe it wont work we also don't know for a fact it wont and as such have to consider both possibilities and not make definite statements that you can or can't

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Originally Posted by Vae

Every. Single. Idris/Epiolitry was only able to be made from programming. The grind was absurd, and not a single person earned without buying HP bayld from someone who made them in that manner. ~50% of Afterglows were actually NOT obtained that way, they were underflowed. (irrelevant arguement)

Spolier: The first Aeonics will be made due to people cheating too.

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Epeoltry owner chiming in. 100% farmed the entire thing. Granted it took me a lot longer than most people and I was tri-box farming usually and doing silly things like using the skirmish parts I got to do balyd farming skirmish runs for hours on end. And I've completely sworn off making an Idris.

Kind of curious about the aeonics though last I saw there wasn't any real huge time sink involved that people would try to cheat past. I think all nms have been killed

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

For Relic, Mythic, Empyrean and Ergon weapons, players will be able to upgrade these weapons even if you have not unlocked their afterglows. If a weapon has had its afterglow unlocked, the amount of resources required to upgrade these weapons in the future will be eased.

Players can choose to complete the afterglow step now and then complete the additional new quests, or complete the new quests without unlocking the afterglow for a weapon to upgrade it. All the upgraded legendary arms, except for Ergon weapons, will have an afterglow effect.

The reason for adding afterglow to all these weapons is that we want to use the space allotted to the Trial of the Magians system to allow for the possibility of expansion in the future.

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I find it funny that Ergon owners have to go through the harder path, yet they don't get the afterglow...

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Originally Posted by bryangelos

I find it funny that Ergon owners have to go through the harder path, yet they don't get the afterglow...

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Not to mention have the fact that they already cost 2-3 times as much to make than empyreans and mythics in the first place....

You know the sad part about this is that most of us, despite our protests, will end up doing whatever they've got planned.

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Originally Posted by Angemon

Should those players get screwed over Alhanelem?

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No, but there are many ways to solve this. They could provide compensation, for instance. Lower the requirements for afterglow by like 80% and then give everyone who completed one that number of items to compensate. They still have their afterglows, and can selll them to other people. there will definitely be a high demand.

Of course, the best solution is to simply keep the two upgrade paths and not force people to get afterglows to continue upgrading...

I agree with you there.

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Originally Posted by Vae

100% of Idris and Epoliatry were obtained the exact same way. Every. Single. Idris/Epiolitry was only able to be made from programming. The grind was absurd, and not a single person earned without buying HP bayld from someone who made them in that manner. ~50% of Afterglows were actually NOT obtained that way, they were underflowed. (irrelevant arguement)

Point is cheating is a thing. It's always gonna be a thing. Afterglow is frivolous. If you want something to complain about, the only thing you have any ability to do so upon would be how terrible afterglow effects are. If a party of 6 people all have afterglows, there is actually zero point in anyone having afterglows, because they don't stack (do they?). And how UGLY the red glow is, and how PLAIN the white glow is. The blue glow is aight.

Spolier: The first Aeonics will be made due to people cheating too.

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I bought/farmed all of my HPBs for the first Idris, I don't really care where they came from. Cheating might be a thing, but SE should consider how a system can be cheated with something as simple as afk botting before they implement it. Not to say something more involved like Mythics can't be botted since they certainly can, but it's not as simple as parking botted alts at every reive possible. Not to mention grinding your own Ergon is incredibly boring, no difference in content, just grind WKRs and reives. Joy. The CSs involved in upgrading it were a step above RMEs progression though, at least.

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Originally Posted by bryangelos

I find it funny that Ergon owners have to go through the harder path, yet they don't get the afterglow...

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I don't even mind going the 'hard' route, but not getting a glow is pretty silly. :/ After this update, if someone is glowing, they've most likely gotten the new version. But for Ergon owners, there'll be no visible difference between the new and old, and considering how they're making this additional work sound pretty involved, it's just silly. Hopefully the boost is at least substantial, they'd need to add a hefty amount of nuking stats to make it top Solstice, and I highly doubt they'd touch the +Geomancy nor the -Pet DT.

Compromise idea:

Change the initial ilvl 119 RME reforge's base dmg / delay to be comparable to other ilvl 119 weapons (like delve, vagary, unity). The original RME reforge to 119 had low dmg/delay because delve was top tier, but that's no longer the case. The 99% cares about being able to use their RME as something besides glamor. More people will make RME knowing the dmg/delay is decent and will subscribe longer farming them. This won't throw off the balance of 2016 top-tier content, because base damage won't overcome the accuracy/evasion/damage_taken challenges.

The next-step upgrade to have aeonic-like weapon skill level increases and afterglow should have the challenging February patch tasks. That's fine, we want power upgrades and will play for more months to earn it.

Doing this compromise would use the lowest number of TOM slots, makes the 99% happy, makes the 1% happy, maintain balance, and encourage more months of play.

Totally called it being 10K times what afterglow is. 10K plutons/others, because those are readily available in that quantity. Anybody happen to know a way to farm plutons by chance?

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Originally Posted by Cblade

Totally called it being 10K times what afterglow is. 10K plutons/others, because those are readily available in that quantity. Anybody happen to know a way to farm plutons by chance?

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All I can think of is spamming Delve right now.
I do hope SE's considering other ways to obtain these, because neither option is very attractive right now.

Then again, it's probably a nice way to get rid of some of those pesky subscribers.

Best way would be to farm High-tier battles on the higher difficulties. Shirai weren't you quitting anyway? Seem to recall you saying that multiple times. Anyhow the prices will stabilize and it will be a decent income source for a little for people and something long-term for everyone to work towards while we wait for the next months updates.

Oh, and high tier battlefields.

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Originally Posted by Angemon

Shirai weren't you quitting anyway? Seem to recall you saying that multiple times.

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I have indeed mentioned lacking motivation to play, and I still do lack the motivation for any longer term projects at the moment to be fair. But permanently quiting isn't on my mind just yet, still have a few fairly easy to reach goals in game which can be done with some casual on and off playing and that suits me fine for the moment.

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Anyhow the prices will stabilize and it will be a decent income source for a little for people and something long-term for everyone to work towards while we wait for the next months updates.

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I'm not expecting anything else and it will be a decent source of income for people for a while to come.

That said, looking at the new stats it seems my Monk won't be coming out of retirement any time soon and it seems there's no need to upgrade Nirvana just yet.

It's high tier battlefield campaign right now... which was kind of a hint this would be the cost

I'm seeing reports that mythics got absolutely no boosts to their aftermaths while empyrean got Occasionally Deals Triple Damage.

WTF.

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Originally Posted by machini

I'm seeing reports that mythics got absolutely no boosts to their aftermaths while empyrean got Occasionally Deals Triple Damage.

WTF.

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Eh, not too peeved about that. Relic weapons already have that as "Hidden effect" without having to keep an Aftermath up and unless SE's changed it in this update the damage multiplier can only proc on normal strikes and not on Weapon skills.

It'll likely proc considerably more often than the hidden effect on relic weapons, but even then it's still only an occasional effect.

That said, Mythic Aftermath is already incredibly powerful on its own, and it also lasts considerably longer than that of its Relic and Empyrian counterparts. (Not sure about Aeonic, not much info about that one available yet.)

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Originally Posted by Shirai

Eh, not too peeved about that. Relic weapons already have that as "Hidden effect" without having to keep an Aftermath up and unless SE's changed it in this update the damage multiplier can only proc on normal strikes and not on Weapon skills.

It'll likely proc considerably more often than the hidden effect on relic weapons, but even then it's still only an occasional effect.

That said, Mythic Aftermath is already incredibly powerful on its own, and it also lasts considerably longer than that of its Relic and Empyrian counterparts. (Not sure about Aeonic, not much info about that one available yet.)

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The point is that, despite supposedly being the best weapons, Mythics got comparatively weaker against Relic and Empyrean with this update.

Just as an example, Terpsichore goes from DMG 102 to DMG 128. Twashtar goes from DMG 89 to DMG 124. And then gets presumably a 50% increase it the value of its AM3.

Twashtar before the update had a DPS of ~30.3, and Terpsichore had ~29.8, which were within ~1% of each other. Now Twashtar has a DPS of 42.7, and Terpsichore has 37.4.

So not only has Twashtar gone from DPS parity with Terpsichore to being ~14% ahead of it, but also gained a (presumably) vastly upgraded aftermath. For an equivalent boost, assuming proc rate is the same, Mythics would need to go to 80% OA2 and 30% OA3, or some combination of OA3 and OA4.

It's ridiculously imbalanced. That's just one weapon.

This just isn't acceptable.

[edit]math is hard

Similar for Conqueror and Ukonvasara, Ryunohige and Rhongomiant, Kogarasumaru and Masamune, Nagi and Kannagi, Liberator and Redemption.

You kinda left that detail out of your initial complaint, that said, taking that into the comparison I can't disagree that the Empyrians did indeed get an unfair boost.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

You kinda left that detail out of your initial complaint, that said, taking that into the comparison I can't disagree that the Empyrians did indeed get an unfair boost.

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I apologize. I've been up for nearly thirty six hours at this point, I'm surprised I can still type, let alone type something intelligible.

http://i.imgur.com/LJgcT9x.png

So, yeah, looking at some of these weapons, it seems Emypreans have gotten a roughly 39% damage increase, Relics a 36%, and Mythics, if you ignore Gastraphetes, got a 25% damage increase. I'm ignoring Gastraphetes because it somehow nearly doubled in DPS. That must be a mistake. If it's not a mistake, I am even further incapable of comprehending the wisdom of this decision. It's especially jarring, and sticks out like a gangrenous thumb, when you notice that at their original 119 verisons, many of these weapons were very close to each other in DPS, whereas with the current update, Relic and Empyrean pulled significantly ahead, while mythic remained close together (compare the daggers).

Combine the fact that Mythics got a comparatively smaller damage increase, no aftermath upgrade, no upgrade to their job-specific enhancements, and, from what I understand, no increase to their weapon skill damage, and compare that massive pile of nothing to the higher damage boost that Relics and Empyreans got, especially combined with the stats on Empyreans and their (again, assuming same proc rates) 50% better Aftermath, then yes, this update has been a huge insult to people who have mythics.

This needs to be fixed, and now.

Anyone seen the stats on the upgraded Kenkonken?

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Originally Posted by Ashel

Anyone seen the stats on the upgraded Kenkonken?

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https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/February_...Update_Changes All the upgraded weapons are here, if that helps. :P

Thanks appreciate it!

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Originally Posted by machini

http://i.imgur.com/LJgcT9x.png

So, yeah, looking at some of these weapons, it seems Emypreans have gotten a roughly 39% damage increase, Relics a 36%, and Mythics, if you ignore Gastraphetes, got a 25% damage increase. I'm ignoring Gastraphetes because it somehow nearly doubled in DPS. That must be a mistake. If it's not a mistake, I am even further incapable of comprehending the wisdom of this decision. It's especially jarring, and sticks out like a gangrenous thumb, when you notice that at their original 119 verisons, many of these weapons were very close to each other in DPS, whereas with the current update, Relic and Empyrean pulled significantly ahead, while mythic remained close together (compare the daggers).

This needs to be fixed, and now.

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The weapon damage is almost double from the 119 version so it'd make sense that the DPS doubled.

I'm not sure but maybe they boosted them the way they did was because mythic have special job specific boosts that the Relic and Empyreans lack, making them more desirable than the other two, especially when pure DPS isn't even the importance in some cases (mostly for mages and pet jobs). Murgleis, for example, might be seen as one of the Mythics that were "saved" via this update, as opposed to say Nirvana, which doesn't get a major boon from the update.

Since Relics and Empyreans are more geared towards attacking outright than Mythics are (since again, many people might use mythics more for the job specific buffs), it makes sense that their DPS is higher since they lack many special buffs. Also, Mythic AM is potentially higher damage because of the double/triple proc.

Yeah but don't mythics have way better special abilities for the most part?

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Originally Posted by Olor

Yeah but don't mythics have way better special abilities for the most part?

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They didn't increase the special abilities either. No changes to the aftermaths, no augments VI instead of V, no increase to mythic weaponskill damage.

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Originally Posted by machini

http://i.imgur.com/LJgcT9x.png

So, yeah, looking at some of these weapons, it seems Emypreans have gotten a roughly 39% damage increase, Relics a 36%, and Mythics, if you ignore Gastraphetes, got a 25% damage increase. I'm ignoring Gastraphetes because it somehow nearly doubled in DPS. That must be a mistake. If it's not a mistake, I am even further incapable of comprehending the wisdom of this decision. It's especially jarring, and sticks out like a gangrenous thumb, when you notice that at their original 119 verisons, many of these weapons were very close to each other in DPS, whereas with the current update, Relic and Empyrean pulled significantly ahead, while mythic remained close together (compare the daggers).

Combine the fact that Mythics got a comparatively smaller damage increase, no aftermath upgrade, no upgrade to their job-specific enhancements, and, from what I understand, no increase to their weapon skill damage, and compare that massive pile of nothing to the higher damage boost that Relics and Empyreans got, especially combined with the stats on Empyreans and their (again, assuming same proc rates) 50% better Aftermath, then yes, this update has been a huge insult to people who have mythics.

This needs to be fixed, and now.

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I would believe it to be honest. Gastraphetes was without a doubt the most useless joke of a Mythic available. So if that got upgraded as much as it did its likely in an effort to make it suck considerably less.