Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

They have been telling the dragoons that they are working on increasing the 12 timer limit, and that some of the shared timers are only temporary. Perhaps they could consider moving some less used JA's to shared timers on thief temporarily so that they could add new ones. I don't think anyone would mind if flee and hide shared a timer for example. There's probably a few other things they could get creative with as well.

It's 13 already, apparently... not 12.

I would not want flee and hide on the same timer. Put Mug and Steal on the same (5 min or less) timer. Who the hell cares about Mug anymore anyway when nothing can be mugged for anything worthwhile?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

It's 13 already, apparently... not 12.

---

Maybe with and without counting two-hour abilities?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

Maybe with and without counting two-hour abilities?

---

Possibly. I didn't count up how many jobs like drg and thf have to see. It's just what Camate posted today.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lokithor

I would not want flee and hide on the same timer. Put Mug and Steal on the same (5 min or less) timer. Who the hell cares about Mug anymore anyway when nothing can be mugged for anything worthwhile?

---

Yeah, I just thought of hide, because I can't think of a time in years where I have used both at the same time. Also keep in mind that I was talking about a temporary change, just so that they could add more abilities sooner than later. I agree about mug too. I wouldn't mind loosing a little functionality on mug (they apparently don't like us using it anyways), if it meant getting a new JA that was actually good. I would gladly just delete mug for something as useful as bully. Maybe legion NMs will be mug worthy?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Yeah, I just thought of hide, because I can't think of a time in years where I have used both at the same time.

---

Flee >> Deodorizer >> Silent Oil >> Hide. Ok I haven't done it since I was coffer hunting for my AF, back when exp mattered.

To open, I want to apologize for posting in this format. My little conversation with Karbuncle got me looking over the THF forums and I'm doing some back-tracking as a result.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insaniac

1) THF has no real use. TH2 is the best form of TH in terms of noticeable boosts, anything past that is all pretty much unnoticeable/unseeable boosts. So we're not even good for that beyond placebo effects.

---

TH should really be nothing more than a slight bonus. At least that way you have a reason to look over the job and start boosting some of the other facets of THF. The problem with this is that such an approach clashes with point 4. I just don't know how career THFs would react to FFXI THF emulating Locke and Zidane more than the FFTactics THF (AKA the "all I'm good for is stealing rare equipment off bosses" job).

Quote:

---

2) We have no real DD capabilities, similar to a lot of lesser DD jobs, Except THF falls further behind than others in this Gap. Since 75 the gap between THFs power and the next best DD has widened much further. In this field, we don't ask to be top tier DD, simply to have the gap lessened.

---

A second tier of Assassin to add a small damage multiplier to SA & TA (buff the multiplier if it's not enough) and one additional attack JA on it's own one minute cooldown may be a good place to start. As per the raise dagger damage thread, dagger damage should be bumped up a bit, or add a JT to THF to give the slight boost to dagger damage in order to not mess with itemization (call it Dagger Mastery or something like that). By the way, Aura Steal is a terrible idea, and whoever thought it belonged on THF has been playing too much FFTactics.

Quote:

---

3) Devs want us to be support class and "Control enmity" and as it stands THF has no real methods to "Control" enmity. 2 Abilities on a shared timer and no way to disperse extra Enmity does not a master make. So as far as the Devs "vision" of the job goes we even lack capabilities there

---

Making a guy with big crits and daggers "support" is a losing proposition. That being said, enmity is a cluster-f of epic proportions. No easy way to fix it without massive changes that affect everyone. Then again, enmity control is a really bad gimmick to stick on a melee combatant like THF.

Quote:

---

4) Over-all Lack of Uniqueness of the job, usefulness of the job. Right now the only thing keeping THF relevant is ignorance of Treasure Hunter, But once that becomes common knowledge I doubt THF will keep its head above water.

5) We're all disappointed by the BS Responses we got earlier, which basically to summarize tell us things like "Aura Steal is too powerful to separate from Steal, or Reduce timer", and "You can't have Subtle Blow because You melee for TH upgrades, and we feel that balances it", etc.

---

Indeed. I'm surprised at the amount of BS that was flung your way. Most disappointing.

Quote:

---

6) Practically 0 job growth since the level cap increases. THF is more or less the same exact job it was at level 75 where most other jobs have grown either slightly or exponentially. TH3 and the proc system seems to have been just a placebo put in place to keep THFs from being completely forgotten when TH2 became sub-able.

---

Agreed. THF growing as a melee job instead of relying to bad gimmicks is not going to suddenly take over the game. The only real concern I ever had about the job was the fact that THF/NIN and THF/DNC is pretty effective...soloing. Other than that, the job needs lots of help.

If the above has been disproven or debunked or argued against, consider this a friendly bump from an outsider to the job. =P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

TH should really be nothing more than a slight bonus. At least that way you have a reason to look over the job and start boosting some of the other facets of THF.

---

Past TH2/3, it is. And they still won't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

A second tier of Assassin to add a small damage multiplier to SA & TA (buff the multiplier if it's not enough)

---

Critical Attack Bonus IV gives an extra 14% damage to not just SA and TA, but every crit that lands.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

and one additional attack JA on it's own one minute cooldown may be a good place to start.

---

Yes, though it's already been said, and all we got was 'too many JA timers' from the devs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

Making a guy with big crits and daggers "support" is a losing proposition.

---

It's called 'Dancer'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

That being said, enmity is a cluster-f of epic proportions. No easy way to fix it without massive changes that affect everyone. Then again, enmity control is a really bad gimmick to stick on a melee combatant like THF.
Indeed. I'm surprised at the amount of BS that was flung your way. Most disappointing.

---

It was actually a really good idea when it was released, it was useful, and made the job far more interesting than the likes of MNK of old which was just swing swing swing WS etc. Since TP zerg however, it has become far more redundant, and with no rise to the enmity cap, it is capped within a few mins even on the highest def mobs. It is still moderately useful on the few mobs where taking a PLD is worthwhile, however on those mobs (generally VW) 1 TA WS to help the PLD in the first minute of the fight isn't enough to warrant taking a THF and losing out on other procs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

THF growing as a melee job instead of relying to bad gimmicks is not going to suddenly take over the game. The only real concern I ever had about the job was the fact that THF/NIN and THF/DNC is pretty effective...soloing.

---

And yet our best DD abilities are almost useless in a solo situation. No TA partner to TA on, and SA only every 3 mins with Bully.

Increasing the Eva cap would actually help THF quite a lot. Being able to cap out eva on a lot of mobs, but still getting hit every 5 attack rounds is ridiculous. Or as I believe has been mentioned before, a JA like perfect counter, but perfect evade. 1 min JA lasts for 30 seconds or until hit: "Evades the next attack that would have hit you". This would at least boost capped eva up to getting hit once every 11 attack rounds, making /war tanking much much better and mp efficient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

Past TH2/3, it is.

---

I meant as a whole. As in, it's miniscule and there mostly for thematics instead of having notable effects in combat.

Quote:

---

Critical Attack Bonus IV gives an extra 14% damage to not just SA and TA, but every crit that lands.

---

Still does not mean an additional damage modifier wouldn't hurt.

Quote:

---

Yes, though it's already been said, and all we got was 'too many JA timers' from the devs.

---

BS response is BS.

Quote:

---

It's called 'Dancer'.

---

Which is so much more relevant and far out-classes THF and is always brought to events...oh wait. Really, a job that relies on high critical hits, has abilities that fascilitate them and built-in triple attack should not be pushed into being "support". That's as demeaning as RDM's time as refreshbot. Not to mention by doing that all you're doing is keeping a potentially great damage dealer down.

Quote:

---

It was actually a really good idea when it was released, it was useful, and made the job far more interesting than the likes of MNK of old which was just swing swing swing WS etc. Since TP zerg however, it has become far more redundant, and with no rise to the enmity cap, it is capped within a few mins even on the highest def mobs. It is still moderately useful on the few mobs where taking a PLD is worthwhile, however on those mobs (generally VW) 1 TA WS to help the PLD in the first minute of the fight isn't enough to warrant taking a THF and losing out on other procs.

---

The game has changed, but some jobs never changed along with it. That needs to be corrected.

If you want to get into nitty gritty, it's a bad gimmick in the long term. It expects things to stay a certain way, which all went down the toilet once people started easily hitting the enmity cap. 1-50 and 51-75 were already different enough, and then 76-99 came in and everything that was set in place suddenly became very outdated. The developers need to go back and either update certain systems or rework jobs in a way that they actually are functional, useful and relevant in events for those who enjoy said jobs. Raising the enmity cap is only going to prolong the problem instead of solve it, by the way.

Quote:

---

And yet our best DD abilities are almost useless in a solo situation. No TA partner to TA on, and SA only every 3 mins with Bully.

---

The concern was more for survivability. I used to see people two-box Abyssea content with a THF/NIN or THF/DNC tanking everything and a WHM attached to them. Then I realized THF has high evasion and can gear for it. Again, it's not a big deal, though if the devs came to me and said "we're being careful because THF with the proper support can tank things" I may consider that a legitimate concern and not a nugget on the pile of BS they've been giving you for responses.

If you want to get inside my head and see what I feel THF needs, or at least what direction it could potentiall grow if someone in the developer team cared about the job, I do have some very rough ideas:

Job Abilities

01 Perfect Dodge
(Changed)05 Steal - Steal success rate is now modified by melee accuracy. Receives a greater bonus to success rate when you're behind the target
15 Sneak Attack
25 Flee
30 Trick Attack
45 Hide
(New)55 Coup de Grace - Your next attack is a threefold attack. The first hit is a guaranteed critical hit, and the other two hits have a chance to critically hit . Stacks with Weapon Skills, but does not stack with Sneak Attack or Trick Attack
(Changed)55 Accomplice
(New)65 Pierce Armor - Afflict the enemy with special defense down.
(New)75 (Merit) Collaborator (3 minute cooldown) - Transfers any enmity generated by you for the next 11/12/13/14/15 seconds to one party member
(New)75 (Merit) Dirty Trick (5 minute cooldown) - Interrupts spellcasting. Additional merits reduce cooldown by 30 seconds
(Changed) 77 Despoil - No longer shares a cooldown with Steal. Possible Enfeebles: Defense Down, Magic Defense Down, Evasion Down
87 Conspirator
93 Bully

Job Traits

05 Gilfinder
10 Evasion Bonus
15 Treasure Hunter
20 Resist Gravity
(New)20 Dual Wield
30 Evasion Bonus II
40 Resist Gravity II
(New)45 Dual Wield II
50 Evasion Bonus III
55 Triple Attack
60 Assassin
60 Resist Gravity III
(New)65 Dagger Mastery - Increases damage rating of equipped daggers by 10%.
70 Evasion Bonus IV
75 Resist Gravity IV
(New)75 Triple Attack II
75 (Merit) Mage Masher - Your auto-attacks have an additional 1/2/3/4/5% chance of interrupting spellcasting
75 (Merit) Ambush
76 Evasion Bonus V
78 Critical Attack Bonus
(New)80 Dual Wield III
81 Resist Gravity V
84 Critical Attack Bonus II
(New)85 Flurry - Applies 5% haste rating to you. Counts as Job Ability haste.
91 Critical Attack Bonus III
(New)95 Triple Attack III
99 Critical Attack Bonus IV

You may not like them, but I do admit that I take issue with treasure hunter, Steal, Despoil, and Aura Steal being used as excuses for denying the job growth as a melee damage dealer. Specially when the foundation is there.

I leveled Thief to 99 and have hardly used Dancer since. I took it to kill Proto-Omega because TH doesn't matter much there.

I picked up 5-10 Alexandrite per run when I swapped to Thief with macroing in AF2+2 hands and AF3+2 feet for one round on each gear. It's worth the extra ~5-10 minutes it takes me because Thief is a substantially worse DD than my DNC. Most of what takes time is the running around in there, anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

I leveled Thief to 99 and have hardly used Dancer since. I took it to kill Proto-Omega because TH doesn't matter much there.

I picked up 5-10 Alexandrite per run when I swapped to Thief with macroing in AF2+2 hands and AF3+2 feet for one round on each gear. It's worth the extra ~5-10 minutes it takes me because Thief is a substantially worse DD than my DNC. Most of what takes time is the running around in there, anyway.

---

I guess you didn't mean Proto-Omega? Or you switched to a different event without mentioning it lol.

Yeah, one of them is Limbus (I did not use THF) and the next is Salvage (I used THF).

I'd love to see THF get a trait called Tactical Evade where they get +1-2 TP for every successful evasion. Or if that's too strong, could make it a JA called Artful Dodge with shared timer with Mug or something(If mug is used, 15m recast, if the JA is used, its 5 min recast). As an added bonus Perfect Dodge could enhance the effect of the trait further and give like TP+5-10 for every evasion(similar to how Light Arts or Tabula Rasa enhance Regen), making it less sucky and goes along with what SE said like 3 years ago about making Perfect Dodge more useful and possibly more offensive.

I still love THF either way. Picking chests never gets old. I would like to see SE give boosts to THF that use Shield + Dagger rather than Dual Wield. Or perhaps make a shield that "Enhances Sneak Attack" or something.

^Reminds me of pre TOAU days when I'd see THF/WAR running around with Mandau/Tatami Shield, messing stuff up for ridiculous damage. You could sub WAR now and benefit from like TP Bonus+20 and a pretty significant bonus to Critical Hit rate from Fencer actually (Crit+5%). They could even make sneak attack do increased damage if you only wield one weapon in your hand rather than dual wielding, though dual wielding fits THF better to be honest.

I was thinking if they implemented better bolts for high level (HQ Blood/Acid/Sleep) that had 1.5-2x the effect that current bolts have, THF would be pretty sweet on stuff, maybe even a increase to B+ or A- marksmanship so we could use xbow better. I gotta say, I've been in love with xbow since I leveled THF and find that 12.5% defense down from acid bolts(which procs on almost everything even VW) beats the 3% DW from Raiders. If they increased Acid Bolt's effectiveness or added stronger Acid Bolts that did like 15-17% Defense Down, it would definitely be awesome. By the way I've ben screwing around with Paralyze Arrows on my THF when soloing Dynamis, have you guys any idea how potent these things are? They're like Ice Spikes potency or Paralyze II 5/5 from RDM! Seriously the paralyze proc's on mobs' actions like 30-40% of the time, it's nuts. People underrate how good status bolts/arrows can be.

I dont see any value in trying to boost up single wielding. It would need such a huge boost to keep up with DW (30%+ delay reduction is HUGE for both TP speed and DoT, not to mention the extra hit on WS) its just impractical to boost single up that much just to MATCH what we have now. Whats the point? Especially after years of bitching/whining for DW and we FINALLY got it. Now people want to go single wield again?

Some people can never be happy i guess. Why boost single wield so you can mandau/tatami /war when you can just get 33% DW and STILL /war and destroy the world right now instead? It doesnt enhance thf, it just makes DDing with 1 hand as good as 2 already is. That doesnt fix anything wrong with thf because its a sidegrade at the expense of lots of dev time.

Theres a lot of things SE can do to thf. Wasting time enhancing thf dagger/shield combo by ~30% just to match the existing DW we begged for the last 5 years for because single wielding sucked and bound us to /nin isnt one of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aana

It would need such a huge boost to keep up with DW (30%+ delay reduction is HUGE for both TP speed and DoT, not to mention the extra hit on WS)

---

Since they scrapped the tp floor, 30% delay reduction doesn't speed up TP gain, as TP per swing is reduced by the same amount as your delay is reduced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

Since they scrapped the tp floor, 30% delay reduction doesn't speed up TP gain, as TP per swing is reduced by the same amount as your delay is reduced.

---

Incorrect. It doesn't increase TP gain *as much* as it used to, but it does absolutely still increase TP gain.

Code:

---

Delay per weapon    TP/Hit      TP/Second
180                5.0        1.667
175                4.9        1.680
170                4.9        1.729
165                4.8        1.745
160                4.8        1.800
155                4.7        1.819
150                4.7        1.880
145                4.7        1.945
140                4.6        1.971
135                4.6        2.044
130                4.5        2.077
125                4.5        2.160
120                4.5        2.250

---

For the issue in question, a 190 delay dagger's TP gain rate would be 1.642 TP per second. 30% DW puts the effective delay at 133, which has a TP gain rate of 2.075 TP per second, a 26.4% increase.

A Twashtar, at 176 delay, would have 1.670 TP/second. 30% DW reduction (assuming an identical 176 delay weapon in offhand) puts its effective delay at 123, for 2.195 TP/second; a 31.5% increase in TP gain rate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Motenten

Incorrect. It doesn't increase TP gain *as much* as it used to, but it does absolutely still increase TP gain.

---

Motenten is right as usual. But I don't think this even accounts for triple attack rounds - the faster you hit the more chances you have for double/triple/quadruple attack to proc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Economizer

But I don't think this even accounts for triple attack rounds - the faster you hit the more chances you have for double/triple/quadruple attack to proc.

---

Unfortunately, that's not a valid way of looking at it. If you make 10 attack rounds, and get 2 triples in that time, it doesn't matter if each round is 1 second apart or 10 seconds apart, you still do identical damage. You don't get "more" chances to triple attack as you reduce delay, you just compress the damage you did into a smaller period of time.

Yes, you can technically view it as more chances to triple attack within a given period of time, but that's only because of the greater number of attack rounds to begin with.

I'm probably not explaining it well. Triple attack/etc chances do not scale with time, they scale with number of attack rounds. Attack rounds scale with time. Saying that your improvement is because of more triple attacks is viewing the damage schema at entirely the wrong level.

Yeah, I'm not trying to say the extra damage is due to double/triple/quadruple/occ. attk. X or anything like that, merely that haste amplifies the effects of them more (in this game, what haste doesn't amplify is probably a shorter list then what it does).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Motenten

Saying that your improvement is because of more triple attacks is viewing the damage schema at entirely the wrong level.

---

Lets say you have a fight that goes on for a somewhat limited time. You either get those extra rounds due to haste/delay reduction or you don't. If you have some form of multihit trait or weapon then the damage difference is further amplified from someone who doesn't have haste.

Of course, I'm not the legendary Professor Mathematical so I'm either misinformed in my own thinking process or performing some miscommunication in my thinking process. At this point in time I'm erring on the second one however.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Motenten

Incorrect. It doesn't increase TP gain *as much* as it used to, but it does absolutely still increase TP gain.

Code:

---

Delay per weapon    TP/Hit      TP/Second
180                5.0        1.667
175                4.9        1.680
170                4.9        1.729
165                4.8        1.745
160                4.8        1.800
155                4.7        1.819
150                4.7        1.880
145                4.7        1.945
140                4.6        1.971
135                4.6        2.044
130                4.5        2.077
125                4.5        2.160
120                4.5        2.250

---

---

Is this only true for delay under 180? I recall seeing a graph showing delay to TP a couple of years ago and it showed that weapons under 180 produce more TP, but don't recall if it was linear above that? Also, is there a floor at 120, or can TP gained go below 4.5?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Economizer

Of course, I'm not the legendary Professor Mathematical so I'm either misinformed in my own thinking process or performing some miscommunication in my thinking process. At this point in time I'm erring on the second one however.

---

You're correct with that statement, and while you get a higher total bonus with more Haste (or less Delay in general) you get the same percentual bonus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

Is this only true for delay under 180? I recall seeing a graph showing delay to TP a couple of years ago and it showed that weapons under 180 produce more TP, but don't recall if it was linear above that? Also, is there a floor at 120, or can TP gained go below 4.5?

---

TP always behaves linearly, but with different segments as it's defined partially in certain intervals. Overlapping intervals may produce weird behaviour when trying to calculate the percentual bonus (one such inflection point is at 180 Delay, so if you compare the interval [150;200] you'll get non-linear results). But for delay under 180, this is definitely true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Economizer

Of course, I'm not the legendary Professor Mathematical so I'm either misinformed in my own thinking process or performing some miscommunication in my thinking process. At this point in time I'm erring on the second one however.

---

Well, if you gain 15% Triple Attack (from 0% TA/DA/QA/OAT/OAwhatever), it will increase your TP gain by 30%. It is true that you will see more Triple Attacks if you have more Haste, but they will still represent the same percentage increase in your TP gain. Thus, the impact of Triple Attack is independent of weapon delay.

This "decreasing delay increases TP gain" is one of the reasons why my Dancer (95 delay per hand) gains TP so much faster than my Thief (~122 delay per hand). All the extra Store TP and Haste Samba also help quite a bit.

I always think of it like dice. Everytime you attack, you roll a 10 sided die. If you roll a 1 you triple. 2-10 and you single. Pick up dice, roll it, see what happens. 10% of the time you triple attack.

Adding haste just makes you attack more, so you grab more dice. Now you pick up 5 dice. or 10, or 999. No matter what, you will still only triple 10% of the time. Addin more dice doesnt 'enhance' triple attack at all. You can roll 1 dice 100 times (it will take a while) or pick up 100 dice and roll them all at once (SUPER HASTE GOO!). Either way, the only way to make triple attack better is to say "Triple attacks now proc on rolling both a 1 and a 2" (20% chance to triple).

In this way, triple attack is completely independant of how many dice you roll. Its always a 1/10 chance to go off. Adding more dice doesnt change that. It just makes the process of rolling dice take less time (like haste makes attacking take less time). It doesnt actually affect your triple attacks. Roll 1 dice slowly 100 times, or m100 dice at once, it wont change how many times you roll a 1.

Quote:

---

This "decreasing delay increases TP gain" is one of the reasons why my Dancer (95 delay per hand) gains TP so much faster than my Thief (~122 delay per hand). All the extra Store TP and Haste Samba also help quite a bit.

---

Little tangent that I have always wondered about. When you play dnc, does your style use steps/flourashes pretty much as soon as their up (assuming a pretty constant melee scenario), or do you just kinda ride haste samba+saber dance into the sunset. While its true dnc has a good chunk of atk speed over thf, i wonder how much of that is eaten up by spaming SOOO many JAs (compared to thf). I remember back in the old days of colibri parties when people started mathing in WS delay that soboro stopped beating hagun and became a wash because so much time was lost in the animations spamming so many weaker WS compared to hagun.

I just wonder if the constant barrage of dnc steps/flourishes messes with all that absurd speed with stop and go pauses. While, comparitively, thf has virtually no JAs.

2JAs a minute at best with SATA. Bully every 3. WS when TP. In a 3 minute cycle thf does (at most)
* ~7-8 JAs (3SA, 3TA, 1bully, 0-1 ACharge) and however many WS we can. Feint once in a blue moon if needed.

Compared to 12steps, 6reverses, ~1.5 of a flourish 3. ~1.5 haste samba. 1 saber dance. X for presto(iunno much about dnc post 75 if you use this or not, but seems to net gain of zero since presto+step=2 steps=same JA delay). THEN you add in the WS you get from all that DW/Samba speed and reverse flourishes. Good god thats a crapload of JAs.
~22+WSs in a THREE Minute period.

thats ~14 more 1 second JA delays in a 3 minute period (and however many mroe WS dnc is capable of doing on top of that). just an even 15 second/3 min is 8.3% of your melee time vanished.

Anyway, just wondering how JA intensive dnc really is. Not familiar enough with it to say what teh ost 'efficient' play style is, but it makes me wonder. The soboro vs hagun was the 1st example that adding JAs turned a clear winner (soboro) into a wash at high haste values. At a certain break point of haste and JA spam, less becomes more. Thf is definately on the 'simple' side. Curious if all the crazy JA spam on dnc ends up hurting it. Obviously capped haste things change and dnc needs to start toning down DW gear when it becomes a liability and thf ends up at the same 80% delay cap, so then its just TA vs saber dance and im sure at 80% zerg mode the JAs are really painful, but dnc and thf arent exactly high end zerg jobs, so we can stick to basic buffs :P

The real answer is that it's very situational, but most of the time when I am playing Dancer (at high Haste lowman or when duoing with a mage mule against trash monsters), it is not worth using Steps/Flourishes at all, in my opinion. Obviously there are times when you want to use Steps/Flourishes even though it hurts your overall damage (like in Dynamis), but it is not very often. That is why I keep advocating for reduced JA delay. The job (played properly) is basically just Thief with more Dual Wield, Haste Samba, and Saber Dance (= Triple Attack, but you have to activate it) in most of the situations where it is useful.


When you do the comparison, you need to account for the fact that things like Presto+Step+Flourish+WS all end up chained and don't actually take an additional 2 seconds each. However, self-skillchaining will overkill everything Dancer fights or be impossible (Voidwatch). Box -> Wild -> Exenterator may be our best use of time, but even that isn't always useful.


If I was in an alliance or even full-party situation where Dancer could survive, I would obviously spam Steps for the sake of the group regardless of my own damage. Weasling your way into a Voidwatch alliance is the only way to get yourself into this situation though, and I'm usually so bitter to be in the mage party (inevitable) at that point that I don't really care anymore. Hell, most of the time mages don't even bother keeping Dia II on monsters, and that's just barely weaker than a level 5 Sluggish Daze and takes almost no time to cast.

I think I went into it more here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

Is this only true for delay under 180? I recall seeing a graph showing delay to TP a couple of years ago and it showed that weapons under 180 produce more TP, but don't recall if it was linear above that? Also, is there a floor at 120, or can TP gained go below 4.5?

---

As Arcon mentioned, the scale changes at various delays, but the most interesting portion is 180 and below. There's a graph on wiki for it, I think.

There is no known lower bound. I just ran it down to 120 delay since that seemed like a good place to stop.

The lowest practical delay that I can come up with would be:

Nin (DW5): 35%
Suppa: 5%
Iga+2 head: 5%
AF body: 5%
Relic+2 legs: 7%
Nusku Sash: 5%
Iga Earring: 1%

Total: 63% DW

Edit: Actually, could add Blitzer's Roll to that for another ~15%, 78% total (just shy of the delay cap).

Weapons: 150 delay daggers (eg: Hornetneedle, Oneiros Knife, etc)

Effective delay: 55
TP/Hit: 3.9
TP/second: 4.216

Effective delay: 33
TP/Hit: 3.7
TP/second: 6.727

Does Blitzer stack additively with Dual Wield? I was under the impression that they were separate categories.

Would be sweet if our merit 2hr ability gave us Triple Attack+100% for 30 seconds-1min.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ophannus

Would be sweet if our merit 2hr ability gave us Triple Attack+100% for 30 seconds-1min.

---

I wouldn't mind stackin my rudra with that lol.

There was a thread a while back about making up 2hours, thats actually exactly what i suggested.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

Does Blitzer stack additively with Dual Wield? I was under the impression that they were separate categories.

---

Not sure, actually, just a possible additional delay reduction I tossed in. I don't see any testing saying it explicitly does or does not add to DW.

Lulz if we had 100% triple for 2hour, might actually have a use for all that situational TA damage gear that generally sucks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Motenten

Not, sure, actually, just a possible additional delay reduction I tossed in. I don't see any testing saying it explicitly does or does not add to DW.

---

Since Blitzers is just delay reduction, it should stack additively, yes.

One thing I'm not sure of though, is if for some reason that NIN with -78% delay then got haste/marces/samba or whatever to put them over the delay cap, do they still only get the reduced amount of TP, or does haste get removed first, then enough delay reduction to hit cap and stop it there? I assume all the delay comes off, but not sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

Since Blitzers is just delay reduction, it should stack additively, yes.

---

That's not actually clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

One thing I'm not sure of though, is if for some reason that NIN with -78% delay then got haste/marces/samba or whatever to put them over the delay cap, do they still only get the reduced amount of TP, or does haste get removed first, then enough delay reduction to hit cap and stop it there? I assume all the delay comes off, but not sure.

---

You work with whatever your post-DW TP/hit is when you calculate your TP. Haste/etc don't affect TP, and the overall delay cap is a whole other comparison entirely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

That's not actually clear.

---

Would seem kind of stupid to have it in it's own category. To keep the numbers simple, if you have 50% haste and 50% DW, you're sitting at 75% delay reduction. If blitzers is a 3rd multiplicative to factor in, you need 20% to hit cap. If it's additive to DW you only need 10% to hit cap, just making it even more useless if it's multiplicative (but then, this is SE).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

You work with whatever your post-DW TP/hit is when you calculate your TP. Haste/etc don't affect TP, and the overall delay cap is a whole other comparison entirely.

---

OK maybe I worded it badly, but I am aware haste doesn't reduce TP, just wasn't sure if they stopped reducing your TP from DW when delay got capped.

Heyooooooo necroooo

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/113...=1#post5667264

It looks like TH3+ are an improvement over TH2.

At first i read it as TH2 Giving ~9% and TH3 giving ~13%.

but it looks like its sorted as 3+, Meaning Anything above 3 is added into this average? Meaning its probably TH6/7/8 Or so that we're seeing most of these averages from yah?

Seems great TH3+ Has a difference, Seems kinda sad that the difference between TH2 and TH7/8 is only 4% or so lol. Still, I like this database and I hope it helps us build significant Data on Treasure Hunter levels.

There's already significant data. It's just a matter of analyzing it. The entire site is up.

Check out Hpemdes, for example. You can see that TH2 to TH3+ is a pretty substantial boost in organ drop rate.