Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It's not about personal respect or disrespect and never has been, and that is where you fall apart. You keep defending your job to the death when you're being hit with facts and numbers that just go to show that Summoner is practically last place in terms of actual utility.

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You still peddling "WAR deserves credit for all 1000 damage?"

Hey Al! You guys are done with FFXIclopedia, divorced of all responsibility, etc.... but you probably still have all the keys. Can you still IP ban people?

This user just takes information from BGwiki, sometimes re-writes it, and posts it without a citation. http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/User:Alkimi

If your information/citation policy meant anything, he should be IP banned.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It's not "anything but a joke." It has its place and use with the proper preperation. It just just doesn't live up to your standards. That's fine. Doesn't bother me at all. It's not, however, a joke. It's serious business. It is capable of elevating the job beyond whatever current level of patheticness you feel it has, up to a higher level (and this was proven with math). Whatever you want to call it is up to you, as long as you don't impose your immature and elitist feelings and views on others.

If you have a summoner, they should be treated like any other human being playing any other job and should be given the respect they deserve. I'm sorry that you feel that any kind of SMN falls below your elitist standards, but for the rest of us, it's funcitonal enough to have in a party and get stuff done.For the rest of us below the top 1%, it's still a useful, functional job.

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Why in hell would I lower my DD party's output because someone deserves RESPECT? You're disrespecting ME by insisting on coming on a next to useless job because you feel you can be of use, when in reality compared to WHM BLM BLU NIN WAR you can do next to nothing.

Can SMN proc? BARELY. They can get /brd procs, /whm procs, /rdm or /sch procs, and the OCCASIONAL spirit to proc, once every 5 years.

How is SMNs real damage output? 5k~10k every 45 seconds, averages about 5.8k every 45 seconds depending on targets. That's 128 DPS. Hvergelmir can hit from 100 to 700 (round to 500 just for kicks) every 1.4 (assuming we're going all out- /SAM hasso + 5/5 Haste Samba DNC and BRD with Soul voice in party and ofc your wonderful hastega) seconds, so lets just give SMN a 485 DPS using my hypothetical numbers (based off of my experiance). WAR hits 300~4.5k averaging at about 800 since you're mostly getting crits and not extremely rare ODD+Set effect hits, every 1.6 seconds which is 500 DPS, already 15 damage more than a SMN can bust out, period. Now lets add in Ukko's Fury (assuming 6hit)! Minumum time to 100 TP is (well theoretically its 2 seconds since a mob can triple attack you twice in quick secession and retaliation can proc on each hit, but since I'm not trying to completely humiliate all other DD, and just specifically SMN DD, I'll just use slightly bigger numbers for the time to 100 tp) 3.2 seconds, maximum is 9.6 seconds. Round to 6.4. Ukko's Fury ranges from 3k to 10k, lets say the average is 4k just for the lulz, even though its more like 5k. That's 625 DPS from Ukko's Fury alone. 625+485= 1110 DPS, over twice of what SMN could POSSIBLY have, both in capped haste situations which is MUCH harder for SMN to have than WAR. These are just hypothetical numbers from common damage.

=TL;DR: Ukon WAR DPS is easily over 200% of what a Hvergelmir SMN's DPS would be, including blood pacts. FACT.

Now do you see why you are insulting me for thinking you are EVEN CLOSE to a real DD's possibilities? Why would I let you in a party where I could easily do twice your DPS? Not to mention I can actually cap Accuracy easily, and pDIF semi-easily. Melee SMN is a COMPLETE JOKE compared to actual DD in terms of DPS.

Who in their RIGHT MIND would gimp a DD party out of respect for a job? I can see a SMN going in the tank party for Earthen Armor for SELECT situations, or switching into the DD party after the brd for Perfect Defense for... SELECT situations. Or just put in the BLM party for Hastega (stun recast prz) and Diabolos Favor and Dream Shroud. Outside of Abyssea SMN changes to hateless damage, which is favored in Voidwatch so good for you. Useless content is useless though.

TOTAL TL;DR: SMN Melee is a total joke compared to actual DD. There is no reason to gimp a DD party of dedicated DD players for a SMN who thinks he's a special snowflake and a unique flower.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35kaT...2606213D09B173

Can we just admit that there are 3 groups of people here.

Group A won't invite SMN for anything, which is ok by most SMNs because they rather solo the same NMs that Group A is fighting.

Group B want to be invited into more parties, because they feel that they can contribute to that said party's total damage.

Group C doesn't care about either Group A or B's point of view, they just want to create pointless rabble and "stir up the hornet's nest" so to speak.

Then you got Dallas, who truly believes in what he is saying.

Personally, I don't want to be in a party of non-SMNs when it comes to killing NMs. Can I kill the same NM easy? Sure. Can I kill it faster with more SMNs? Yeah. Can I kill it faster with everyone else? I rather be either WAR (red/blue procs) or BLM (yellow procs) if I'm going to join a party of non-summoners.

It really does not matter at all if SMN is considered the "bottom of the barrel" job, it is not designed to be the best at anything but soloing. It has more usefulness in party situations than any of the other 2 solo jobs, but it was not designed to replace any other job in what they do.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It's not about personal respect or disrespect and never has been, and that is where you fall apart. You keep defending your job to the death when you're being hit with facts and numbers that just go to show that Summoner is practically last place in terms of actual utility. Here's the problem: You're personally invested in the Summoner job. Just because Summoner is bottom of the barrel, does that mean that people who have Summoner leveled are somehow not worthy of respect? No. No one is claiming that.

Summoner as a job is absolutely not worth batting an eye over. It is practically dead last. Every other job in the game that can buff can buff better than Summoner. Every other job in the game that can DD can DD better than summoner. Every other job in the game that can heal can heal as well as or better than Summoner. The jobs in the game that can do more than one of these at a time still do them all better than Summoner. It hasn't been about being the best for 75 pages. It is about being dead bloody last.

Should any of that affect you personally? No. Does any of that say anything about a player behind the monitor? No. Does any of that mean that a player who is on Summoner is trash and bottom of the barrel? No. All it means, and all it will ever mean, is that the job itself is bottom of the barrel.

Will there be good players playing terrible jobs? Always. Will they be preferable to crappy players on good jobs? Always. But at the same time, would those good players be significantly better on good jobs? Hell yes. They would outperform themselves by miles. That is the only real test to be had here. If I get on SMN and play it perfectly, and then get on WHM and play it perfectly and outperform my SMN by a mile and a half (in DD, Buffing, AND healing simultaneously), then I can safely say that I'm far more effective on White Mage than I could ever be on Summoner.

This is the point. No one gives a flying frap if you come Summoner to things. No one gives a flying frap how you spend your time, or what your friends do, or who lets you do what. You are welcome to be on the bottom of the barrel, dead last, worst job in the game as much as you want. If you play it well? Great. You play the game well. But that does not make Summoner any better. That does not make Summoner worthy of any respect as a job class. That does not make Summoner anything other than borderline dead weight, an underperforming blemish on the FFXI job system.

Play Summoner all you want. Enjoy it as much as you want, I'm glad for you and bear you no ill will for it. But don't you dare come in here and tell me that dead last is "Good enough".

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You're so full of BS, I don't know where to begin.

In fact, I won't, save for a few bits. Summoner is not "dead last" at anything. A job that can do many things but none of them the best, aka jack of trades, is not "dead last."

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This is the point. No one gives a flying frap if you come Summoner to things. No one gives a flying frap how you spend your time, or what your friends do, or who lets you do what.

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Obviously you do, because you clearly wouldn't be caught dead with one and you take every effort to make it sound worse than it is. Go take your elitism back to BG, we don't want it here.

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Why in hell would I lower my DD party's output

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You aren't "lowering the output" of any normal, typical party of normal typical people. This is a load of cockamamie whatsit.

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Ukon WAR DPS is easily over 200% of what a Hvergelmir SMN's DPS would be, including blood pacts. FACT.

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You keep bringing this up when I never made any claims to SMN competing with an Ukon WAR. I really dont give 2 farking shiats what an Ukon WAR can do. Great, you're the awesomest DD. Good for you. So we have to be extraordinary to compete with the ordinary. We can, and I consider that an achievement, given how far behind you'd be otherwise- we've already shown that the avatar is only about 1/3 of your maximum damage potential when playing this way.

Does summoner need buffing? Yes, hell yes it does. Is it "the worst job?" No. Not by a million miles. SMN can cure if necessary, buff if necessary, and add some damage while doing either of those things. SMN has unique debuffs (I'll agree its difficult to take advantage of them though) and easily one of the most powerful 2-hours.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Hey Al! You guys are done with FFXIclopedia, divorced of all responsibility, etc.... but you probably still have all the keys. Can you still IP ban people?

This user just takes information from BGwiki, sometimes re-writes it, and posts it without a citation. http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/User:Alkimi

If your information/citation policy meant anything, he should be IP banned.

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Mind responding to this post, Alhanelem?

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You aren't "lowering the output" of any normal, typical party of normal typical people. This is a load of cockamamie whatsit.

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The better the group, the more you lose w/ a smn. The worse the group, the less you lose.

If your typical group consists of bad players, then I agree for your particular scenario

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Mind responding to this post, Alhanelem?

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Yes, he sure does

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Mind responding to this post, Alhanelem?

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Uhm, sure, I'll look into it.

Please post on my talk page to point out specific examples of plagarism, because I don't visit BGWiki.

I'll happily revert any such acts that can be proven (or add appropriate attribution)

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

The better the group, the more you lose w/ a smn. The worse the group, the less you lose.

If your typical group consists of bad players, then I agree for your particular scenario

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In any average group of average people, you don't lose anything. It's only when you reach the elitist tier when you might lose anything.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

In any average group of average people, you don't lose anything. It's only when you reach the elitist tier when you might lose anything.

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Nah, doesn't have to be elite. More like anything above average. A pt w/ ppl w/ somewhat decent gear and not skilling up their weapon in your group, w/ a mage that can keep buffs up.

I'll be that mage keeping buffs up, thanks.

It's easy when your haste lasts 66% longer and hits everyone at once.

800 posts later and all we've learned is that elitists hate summoners. Even the gay marriage thread didn't go on this long.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'll be that mage keeping buffs up, thanks.

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^This.

This argument passed futile and is bordering on the ridiculous now the 1%'ers aren't gonna change their minds any more than us SMNs are. Let's face it these 2 groups will probably never have much interaction in game if at all you won't play with us we won't play with you so why don't we all take our respective toys and move to seperate corners of the playground.

We aren't saying we hate SMN, is that so hard to understand? CS is saying that Hastega doesn't benefit the melees, since a competent mage can keep 3-4 DDs hasted easily.

ITT: The idea of a whm being able to keep a DD pt hasted is elitest

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Originally Posted by Aurara

We aren't saying we hate SMN, is that so hard to understand? CS is saying that Hastega doesn't benefit the melees, since a competent mage can keep 3-4 DDs hasted easily.

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I know you aren't. If haste was all a SMN can bring to a party then you MAY have had a point but we add much more haste is just one thing we can do

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I know you aren't. If haste was all a SMN can bring to a party then you MAY have had a point but we add much more haste is just one thing we can do

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and what we're saying is that what a lot of other jobs can bring to the pt is more valuable than what smn has to offer.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

ITT: The idea of a whm being able to keep a DD pt hasted is elitest

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No but believing a setup needs to be in the top say 5% to a great success is.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

We aren't saying we hate SMN, is that so hard to understand? CS is saying that Hastega doesn't benefit the melees, since a competent mage can keep 3-4 DDs hasted easily.

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Even an incompetent summoner can keep all 6 party members hasted easily, with no thought process or cycle required.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

No but believing a setup needs to be in the top say 5% to a great success is.

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I'll put it this way. If you have a smn and want to use one, that's fine, but that doesn't make it a good job or one that is preferable to use.

It's plain that simple. If you want to use it because the person in your group has most fun on the job, that's one thing, but something like "I want a smn in this pt because of how great they are and how much they add to this party" is another.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Even an incompetent summoner can keep all 6 party members hasted easily, with no thought process or cycle required.

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The point is w/ a competent whm, there's no need for it.

Your only point here is the more your pt sucks, the better a smn is. Ok, we're fine with that. Go play with crappy players and be their god.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Uhm, sure, I'll look into it.

Please post on my talk page to point out specific examples of plagarism, because I don't visit BGWiki.

I'll happily revert any such acts that can be proven (or add appropriate attribution)

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I've reverted all the ones where he literally copied and pasted our information, complete with formatting, but it has been a constant stream of uncited edits he has done for the month or so. Take a look at his edit history, take a look at our page. It doesn't take a genius to figure out where the information is coming from, especially when he gets tired of rewording things and copy/pastes the Tier 4 information. I'm not sure those links will work, but they were just his revision history before and after he contributed to the Hahava and Celaeno pages.

For reference, if you can bear it:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Celaeno
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Hahava

I get all my information from other people, but I cite them and it's generally with express permission. Iirc, one of the primary reasons contributors soured on BGwiki is because the mods would go revert all edits that were uncited and probably from FFXIclopedia. Also, iirc, BGwiki's writing is protected under a non-profit license, meaning that other websites cannot legally take its information and use it for a profit, which is displaying it, in the case of ad revenue supported websites like wikia.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I'll put it this way. If you have a smn and want to use one, that's fine, but that doesn't make it a good job or one that is preferable to use.

It's plain that simple. If you want to use it because the person in your group has most fun on the job, that's one thing, but something like "I want a smn in this pt because of how great they are and how much they add to this party" is another.

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You don't rate the job and that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that I am useful as a support and have been since I started trying it 2 years ago. Am I the best? No. Am I good at it? Yes

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Even an incompetent summoner can keep all 6 party members hasted easily, with no thought process or cycle required.

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I can do this on RDM or WHM, no thought required.
Edit: want my ideal tank pt?
RDM WHM BRD COR DDx2

Can maybe drop rdm for dnc depending on what you're fighting.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

You don't rate the job and that's fine but it doesn't change the fact that I am useful as a support and have been since I started trying it 2 years ago. Am I the best? No. Am I good at it? Yes

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You can be good at the job itself w/o the job being good (comparatively) to other jobs that could be in its place.

Guys, just ignore Cream Soda.

He is just trolling all you since that is all he does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQimv...2606213D09B173

Yes, you are mad, what is your point?

Maddest in all the land. I got steam shootin out of all body openings

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Originally Posted by Byrth

I've reverted all the ones where he literally copied and pasted our information, complete with formatting, but it has been a constant stream of uncited edits he has done for the month or so. Take a look at his edit history, take a look at our page. It doesn't take a genius to figure out where the information is coming from, especially when he gets tired of rewording things and copy/pastes the Tier 4 information. I'm not sure those links will work, but they were just his revision history before and after he contributed to the Hahava and Celaeno pages.

For reference, if you can bear it:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Celaeno
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Hahava

I get all my information from other people, but I cite them and it's generally with express permission. Iirc, one of the primary reasons contributors soured on BGwiki is because the mods would go revert all edits that were uncited and probably from FFXIclopedia. Also, iirc, BGwiki's writing is protected under a non-profit license, meaning that other websites cannot legally take its information and use it for a profit, which is displaying it, in the case of ad revenue supported websites like wikia.

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Across Wikia, all wikis use the CC-BY-SA license, as do we on GamerEscape. People are free to share/modify/use anything on it, as long as they attribute the source (BY) and the shared/modified/used content is made available under the same license (SA).

I think I see reasonable cause to take action on this.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

The point is w/ a competent whm, there's no need for it.

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The WHM can't be that competent, the tank is a WAR/SAM looking for epeen damage.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

The WHM can't be that competent, the tank is a WAR/SAM looking for epeen damage.

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Wait what? The two have no correlation....

For all our disagreement, I'm sure we can agree Dallas makes no sense whatsoever. Just ignore him.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

For all our disagreement, I'm sure we can agree Dallas makes no sense whatsoever. Just ignore him.

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At least we can agree on something.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I think I see reasonable cause to take action on this.

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Thanks!

I don't know if Dallas is crazy, trolling, or really bad at English and says stuff stronger than he actually means.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Wait what? The two have no correlation....

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Last I saw, our Ukon WARs still had tremendous butthurt over the TP feed of a melee SMN. I can understand why, they want to tank with Hasso. That means the WHM is going to be saving the Ukon WARs ass a LOT, and running out of MP. He is not going to be competent enough to handle all the stupidity the idiots are throwing around this thread AND the haste that any SMN could easily handle.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Last I saw, our Ukon WARs still had tremendous butthurt over the TP feed of a melee SMN. I can understand why, they want to tank with Hasso. That means the WHM is going to be saving the Ukon WARs ass a LOT, and running out of MP. He is not going to be competent enough to handle all the stupidity the idiots are throwing around this thread AND the haste that any SMN could easily handle.

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You're wrong because i can do this easily on whm.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Last I saw, our Ukon WARs still had tremendous butthurt over the TP feed of a melee SMN. I can understand why, they want to tank with Hasso. That means the WHM is going to be saving the Ukon WARs ass a LOT, and running out of MP. He is not going to be competent enough to handle all the stupidity the idiots are throwing around this thread AND the haste that any SMN could easily handle.

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You are dumb.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Thanks!

I don't know if Dallas is crazy, trolling, or really bad at English and says stuff stronger than he actually means.

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You guys have been throwing all your SMN bashing out there as fast as you can. It looks like complete crap when you mash them together into a super lie, huh?