Unbalanced racial traits.

Well you picked Tarutaru probably knowing full well they have less HP then the other races and now you're complaining about them having less HP?

Should of picked another race if you wanted to have more HP seriously.

As I imagined, this isn't very constructive.

I apologize for not being more clear in my original post.
The entire reason for this thread was not to debate whether the hp gap is unbalanced because there's absolutely no question about it. It is; I simply listed the facts as to why. The point was to gather constructive opinions about how to deal with it, or if it was the intention of the Dev team to push races into certain roles so much so that they actually find some jobs very limited.

Many of the points I already covered were still brought up as counter arguments, so I'll address a few of them directly.

The difference between Taru and Hume/Mithra HP is ~200 at level 90.
The difference between Hume and Elvaan is only ~100, between Elvaan and Galka is only ~100. Thus only proving my point that it is not proportionate.
While the MP gaps are fairly similar, they are not quite as large. Couple that with the fact that Cruor buffs add a higher % to hp than to mp and it increases the HP gap vs. the MP gap.
Finally, attacks from high level mobs and NMs do much more damage relative to any race's max hp than the cost of spells relative to max mp. This means that even a 1 for 1 trade off would not be balanced.

Obviously, if you aren't finding tarus getting 1 shotted by powerful AoEs and tp moves you are referencing fights that use strategies that do not fit in to the profile that my post was designed to address.
For the record, mobs that you just have a tank and maybe 1 DD on while the mages spam cure do not count toward the "if you're getting 1 shotted you're doing it wrong" argument. That's an pointless statement because it's so blatantly obvious. Obviously I'm not including those situations on either side of the argument. I am only referring to situations that are not a matter of skill when it comes to taking damage. Try being the whm and curing your tank while staying out of range of tp moves that have greater than 20 yalms AoE. There are times where my LS uses only the Galka whms within curing range of the tanks for just this reason.

Even more disturbing is people believing that there are no mobs that can kill you with 3-4 hits before a mage can have the opportunity to cure you. Ever heard of triple attack? Or how about those times when you accidentally hit Turul when his spikes were up at 10% hp and you are still trying to proc TH? While any other race survives most of the time, a Taru will almost always eat dirt. (Tip: Smart thfs of any race will 1-hand their thief's knife when fighting mobs like this to avoid committing suicide.)

Grab a taru WAR and have him/her cleave for you. It works, but you almost need an extra whm to make sure he/she doesn't die if sleeps are late.
Grab a taru and have him tank ICs, or tank Rani or Pantokrator while proc'ing before brew. Better yet, have a Taru on any job tank Indrik and eat scintillating lance followed by a critical hit because mighty strikes is up. I've seen tanks of other races get killed by these things too, but for Taru it's almost 100% certainty. The list starts to get pretty big if you stop and think about how many of the endgame NMs have rather devastating attacks or spells.
I'm not saying it can't be done, for most of them. I'm saying that you have to be pretty incredible to do it.

The argument of trying to offset the disadvantages is, and I apologize for the offensive term, ignorant.
Anything you can do to offset the difference weakens you in the core abilities of the job in comparison to a race that doesn't have to use it. This is absolutely the way the game was designed to work, and rightfully so. The problem is that thes sacrifices can be too significant. Arguing to use atmas or abyssites to offset the low hp is even more ignorant because you didn't stop to think that the other races will have the same abyssites and access to the same atmas, which all function on a percentage base and simply amplify the hp gap by twice the amount that they amplify the mp gap.

Someone even dropped an argument to the general effect of "stick to mage jobs". Which, if taken seriously, doesn't even merit any more of a response.

If you still think mp is problematic enough outside of abyssea for the extra mp of a taru to make anywhere close to the difference the low hp makes you need to check your mages and maybe hire new ones. I know several galka mages that never run into mp problems and they are very good at what they do. Let's do some math. RDM refresh 2 = 5/tic, ballads with +2 brd pants and crooner's add up to 9/tic; and I'd like to point out that the pants and harp are rather easy to obtain. That's higher than abyssea refresh with just the two standard jobs that have always been in charge of refreshing mages. The bright side is, as my original statements mentioned, the hp gap outside of abyssea isn't really all that prohibitive either.

Now, I did fail to mention that because of the ridiculously low enmity cap the fact that hp plays a role in enmity equations is not of great concern. I was simply making a point that it is just another disadvantage that adds to the disproportionate
penalties Taru suffer compared to their strengths. I would like to mention that if the enmity cap was raised significantly, while the hp gap still wouldn't be terribly dividing for enmity, it would be more noticeable.

If you haven't found Taru hp to be a significant drawback to those members of your linkshell during abyssea events there's only a couple of explanations. Either your Taru melees are incredible or you aren't fighting the kind of mobs I was talking about in my original post. I mean that with no offense. I'm not calling anyone a noob or w/e.

This is the last I'll see of this thread. I'm not even going to bother visiting the forum again for a month or so and I won't bother to search for it later. Please dispose with the arguing and criticism and offer constructive thoughts that the Devs can read.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Well you picked Tarutaru probably knowing full well they have less HP then the other races and now you're complaining about them having less HP?

Should of picked another race if you wanted to have more HP seriously.

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This is a silly counter to his point imo. A lot of people made their characters 9 years ago. To say they now have to be stuck with that fault forever is rather silly.

I love the ffxi system of being able to do things all on one character, but that doesn't mean we need to deny some faults with that system as well. While you have to do things separate in other mmos it's a lot easier to lvl a new character over again in them vs. trying to rebuild a 9 year old character from scratch that at this point probably contains an insane amount of jobs/gear/mission completions/etc. etc.

^ What Glitch said.

If the current trend continutes for the rest of FFXI's life in endgame (HP buffs etc.) the HP issue needs to be fixed so they're in-line with other races.

My main char is a taru (usually NIN) with 6/6 Abyssites of merit my 2nd char (a Mithra) has more HP on WHM with only 4/6 abyssites.

I know tarus are ment to have less HP than a Mithra but no way should a Mithra WHM with 12 MP merits have more HP than my NIN with 12 HP merits + 6/6 merit abyssites.

tarus NEED more base hitpoints on the climb to 99 or anything worth doing would likely kill off a taru tank in 1-2 shots.

Only balance issue I've seen is that taru MP is so great that they get an unfair advantage with Myrkr.

Maybe you shouldn't of picked such terrible (non-Galka) races then.

I'm a Taru and I rarely have an issue with HP. I die a lot but that's due to my own cockiness, not my race; I died just as much on my Elvaan.

Think of lack of HP as a great discipline. Galka and Elvaan White Mages had to conserve their MP back in the day and watch how much they casted versus resting. And in a Taru's defense, we have the best Intelligence, the highest magic, and the second best Agility. You shouldn't have to worry about HP; you should be able to evade it. :)

I like the races having their own unique status. But I have to agree that the gaps are a little too large. It'd be nice to see them condensed a little. At least Abyssea helps with this gap bridging, for the most part.

No. Homogeny is the worst kind of design. I'm not looking to play World of Warcraft and it's 5% difference between roles crap.

Just give races extra bonuses. Galka ws bonus. Elvaan magic dmg-% bonus. Mithra crit bonus. tarutaru physical damage taken-% bonus. Hume a minor of everything? w/e I knew i was gonna get screwed as a taru when I started... but taru are so cooooool :)

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Maybe you shouldn't of picked such terrible (non-Galka) races then.

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Back when i started playing the game i choose taru because of the looks, i liked it.

I didn't know anything about tarus lack of HP untill it was too late, there is very little infomation on the character creation screen, it does list HP/MP but it doesnt stand out at all.

why should I be punished with over 400-600 HP LESS than a Galka inside abyssea when a Galka WHM only has 100-250MP LESS than a taru... is that fair? No.

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Originally Posted by Fearforever

Back when i started playing the game i choose taru because of the looks, i liked it.

I didn't know anything about tarus lack of HP untill it was too late, there is very little infomation on the character creation screen, it does list HP/MP but it doesnt stand out at all.

why should I be punished with over 400-600 HP LESS than a Galka inside abyssea when a Galka WHM only has 100-250MP LESS than a taru... is that fair? No.

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100-250 MP Less? You're full of it.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

No. Homogeny is the worst kind of design. I'm not looking to play World of Warcraft and it's 5% difference between roles crap.

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WoW uses healing spells , we should just get rid of those too. You know...because WoW sucks and we shouldn't ever have anything like them.


(they are also not the first MMO to try and balance racial classes, hi2u EQ).

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Originally Posted by Fearforever

Back when i started playing the game i choose taru because of the looks, i liked it.

I didn't know anything about tarus lack of HP untill it was too late, there is very little information on the character creation screen, it does list HP/MP but it doesnt stand out at all.

why should I be punished with over 400-600 HP LESS than a Galka inside abyssea when a Galka WHM only has 100-250MP LESS than a taru... is that fair? No.

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That's not really a good excuse there were tons of guides out there before FFXI even came out in the US, about the races pros and cons. For example importer sites like FFXIonline.com had detailed guides about the races and jobs.

Basically your saying that race should just be for looks and have very little to do with stats like they did on FFXIV? SE could change it but then picking a race would be irrelevant if everyone had the exact same stats and hp/mp values.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

That's not really a good excuse there were tons of guides out there before FFXI even came out in the US, about the races pros and cons.

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which is what caused a ton of manthras out there because brady guide made it sound like if you wanted to be a thief you HAD to be a mithra. Just because there were guides, doesn't mean those guides were good, and that a decision made 9 years ago has to be the same forever.

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Basically your saying that race should just be for looks and have very little to do with stats like they did on FFXIV? SE could change it but then picking a race would be irrelevant if everyone had the exact same stats and hp/mp values.

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I actually see nothing wrong with this. When I tried FFXIV the ratio of different races seemed to be about the same as FFXI (but oddly enough a little more galka).


I actually think what they could do if they refuse to allow a race change option, then they could add merits to "balance" the races.

ie. taru can put an extra 20 merits into hp to be at the same place as galk hp. Galka can put w/e extra mp merits it is to have the same amount as tarus. Do this for all races, so at least it's something they have to work for.


I would also not mind the race change option (I love my model, but again I know lots who picked their model 9 years ago based on lolbrady guide, and should have the option to change if they want to).

brady guide might of been bad, however there were plenty of guides on the internet created by import players that were actually good.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

brady guide might of been bad, however there were plenty of guides on the internet created by import players that were actually good.

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when the game first came out most people were still using dial up. Only reason I was even able to try ffxi in the first place was because I had a ps2 (my comp would never had been able to handle it).

Access to information was way different back then then it is now. Only guide I remember back when it first came out that was actually in English was mysterytour. And then not everything was translated, or it was hard to understand. then when somepage.com came out it was a godsend. (still miss that site, don't go there though it's full of viruses).


Take a moment and really think about what you're saying. Is it really the end of the world if people after 9 years want to change? really? Is it really going to break the game if they balance out the races? I don't see the harm in it whatsoever.


Also, even remotely thinking that guides back during release knew what we know now would be insane, ontop of the glaring fact as mentioned in this thread those guides obviously didn't take into account abyssea or lvl 90s.


[edit] nor let's not forget for example someone when first starting the game wanted to be a blm so rolled a taru and played it for 7+ years, then decide they want to do something new and be a pld or nin and never getting to use it because they rolled a taru 7 years ago.

I live in the UK and FFXI had ZERO advertisements or guides out over here for at least 1 year after EU release, so when i started I knew nothing and there was no help around because I didn't know about any US fansites.

choosing a race shouldn't be all about stats and HP it should be about general looks, since everyone perfers different chars.

I'd like for the gap to be closed up abit, like an earlier poster said there is a 100HP~ difference between Mithra/Hume/Elvaan/Galka yet a taru has twice that gap between the races

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Originally Posted by Fearforever

tarus NEED more base hitpoints on the climb to 99 or anything worth doing would likely kill off a taru tank in 1-2 shots.

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Or put another way, anything that wouldn't 2-shot a Taru would be completely trivial for a Galka, so either the game is balanced to be an impossible meat-grinder for Tarus or to allow Galkas to go on autopilot. What's it gonna be?

With how easy it is to lvl and gear a character with abyssea you would think instead of just complaining about current races stats people would just lvl a mule with w/e race they wanted to be it costs a dollar.

Originally SE invisioned people having one job per character and because the player base decided to not go that way due to the difficulty at the time it lead to many other problems down the road like current inventory issues.

Instead of asking constantly for changes to racial stats on these forums take one day and lvl the job you want with the race you want, being able to send your mules seals you could start collecting all the ones you need for your new character.

This way everyone doesnt look exactly the same with the same capabilitys, each race has its own strong points and weakness's and should be used to the playerbases advantage not frowned upon because people can't bother to gear correctly to survive.

Doing crazy damage is nice and all but if your lying on the floor dead your not doing things right, because your damage is all you care about. That five minutes being weakened takes way more from your dmg then using a PDT set or MDT set.

Actually, I think Hume got the short end of the stick there.

I mean, look at the other races. They excel at something, usually 2 things.

Hume? Just CHR....who cares about CHR? BST to charm anything? BRD to sing songs? CHR has become one of the most useless stats in this game, and that is the ONLY thing Humes are good for.....

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Actually, I think Hume got the short end of the stick there.

I mean, look at the other races. They excel at something, usually 2 things.

Hume? Just CHR....who cares about CHR? BST to charm anything? BRD to sing songs? CHR has become one of the most useless stats in this game, and that is the ONLY thing Humes are good for.....

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Hume doesn't need anything they excel at, they're designed to be in the middle of all other races and they fit in fine.

I think there is a difference between Hume and everyone else.

Tarus with their MP and higher MND/INT makes better mages than Humes.

Elvaan with their higher HP and higher STR makes better DDs than Humes.

Galkas with their higher HP and higher VIT makes better tanks than Humes.

Mithra with their two bigger assets makes them more desirable than Humes....

What do we have that everyone else has? More "balanced" stats? What good does that do to us? There is not a situation where STR and INT are used at the exact same time. Well, maybe BLU, but thats besides the point!

We Humes are mid-roaders. We don't do as much damage as everyone else, we can't survive better than others, we got othing! My BLM has 8 INT merits and it still is 6 INT lower than a taru with the same merits. Probably the same as an Elvaan WAR if I merited STR instead...

I also have 12 mp merits, what good will that do when my WHM's mp is about the same as a taru PLDs mp??? Almost the same HP also! WTF??!?!?!

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Actually, I think Hume got the short end of the stick there.

I mean, look at the other races. They excel at something, usually 2 things.

Hume? Just CHR....who cares about CHR? BST to charm anything? BRD to sing songs? CHR has become one of the most useless stats in this game, and that is the ONLY thing Humes are good for.....

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Actually, Humes are tied with Tarus and Elvaan for highest CHR. Humes have nothing they excel it, and nothing they fail at.

you guys do realize it's more than just HP coming in to play with how much damage a taru takes vs a galka? It's like 10 more VIT on the base stats as well, plus the gear choices taken. Might want to take another look at the stat differences:

http://bellsouthpwp2.net/k/i/kinemat...tatCalculator/

I was amuzed about the reference to fell cleave death when sleeps don't come in time. I have a Taru friend that hosts cleaves for us a lot...we never sleep them...Rach just straight tanks them.

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Originally Posted by Habiki

This way everyone doesnt look exactly the same with the same capabilitys,

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again, why does that even matter?

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each race has its own strong points and weakness's and should be used to the playerbases advantage not frowned upon because people can't bother to gear correctly to survive.

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why should we give SE more money for this? you say its $1, but then when you compare it to every other mmo where you can have up to 8-10 for free on the same account, then it seems pretty money hungry. Especially if you were to say level all 5 for particular jobs that's an extra $5 a month as well as mules you might have on the side.

Also, even with abyssea, there are still tons of missions/gear/quests/key items that are still important outside of it. If we only look at stuff that's relevant at 90 (remember some of the best atma come from completing things like dynamis lord) then it still takes a very long time.

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Originally Posted by Meyi

Actually, Humes are tied with Tarus and Elvaan for highest CHR. Humes have nothing they excel it, and nothing they fail at.

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Thanks for correcting me.

And also proving my point.

WTF ARE WE GOOD AT????

Humes are good at sucking at everything obviously (over a specialist, but you aren't as bad as they are when it comes to what they suck at, so that's a plus I guess?)

Humes are good at nothing, this was available for you to see right at the character creation screen. Anything you can do, we can do better, we can do anything better than you.

No you can't!

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I think there is a difference between Hume and everyone else.

Tarus with their MP and higher MND/INT makes better mages than Humes.

Elvaan with their higher HP and higher STR makes better DDs than Humes.

Galkas with their higher HP and higher VIT makes better tanks than Humes.

Mithra with their two bigger assets makes them more desirable than Humes....

What do we have that everyone else has? More "balanced" stats? What good does that do to us? There is not a situation where STR and INT are used at the exact same time. Well, maybe BLU, but thats besides the point!

We Humes are mid-roaders. We don't do as much damage as everyone else, we can't survive better than others, we got othing! My BLM has 8 INT merits and it still is 6 INT lower than a taru with the same merits. Probably the same as an Elvaan WAR if I merited STR instead...

I also have 12 mp merits, what good will that do when my WHM's mp is about the same as a taru PLDs mp??? Almost the same HP also! WTF??!?!?!

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Mithra and their 2 "assets" eh? O.O

OMG race actually plays a role now? =p

I see what you are saying but I thought the purpose of choosing a race was to specialize in your favorite jobs (i.e. Taru playing as mages will naturally be better as said mage than any other race, and naturally Elvaan will hit the hardest as DD than any other race; notice the "naturally" before you bring gear into this lol) If you like all jobs as many people will say, play as hume, they are average in everything... if you are so concerned about race performance XD

Although, as said already, race shouldn't matter in the least if you have the right gear, buffs and atma setup. It's a matter of personal taste and always has been.

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Originally Posted by rog

You have over 2k hp without buffs? Or are you comparing galka mnk to taru smn?

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lol i have 2k hp as a mithra mnk w/o curor buffs and no relic or obscene hp gear. just those nifty HP merits.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I think there is a difference between Hume and everyone else.

Tarus with their MP and higher MND/INT makes better mages than Humes.

Elvaan with their higher HP and higher STR makes better DDs than Humes.

Galkas with their higher HP and higher VIT makes better tanks than Humes.

Mithra with their two bigger assets makes them more desirable than Humes....

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I've never heard someone bitch and moan so much lol...

But hey, guess what:
Tarus with their low HP and STR and VIT make less desirable DD/tanks than humes
Elvaan with their low INT and mp make them less desirable mages than humes
Galka with their low INT and mp make them even less desirable mages than humes.
Mithra...theyre basically humes+1...same hp mp, humes have slightly higher str+vit+mnd, mithra have much higher dex+agi, and humes have much higher lolchr

In a game like FFXI which promotes multiclass per character, a balanced race like hume wins out. But even then, most of the "advantages" are very minor.

a taru BLM will have 919MP and 89INT
galka BLM will have 492MP and 79INT
elvaan BLM will have 645MP and 75INT

Taru>Galka: First of all, if a taru were chain nuking their full MP pool, they'd probably wind up dead. Secondly, that 10 INT is not going to account for that much discrepancy in damage, considering all the other gear involved. Third, a galka BLM can practically fulltime Uggalepih Pendant.


oh, and your original statement has flaws:
Tarus have the lowest MND stat along mithra

Humes are good at making you look less like an emotionally stunted manchild when a friend asks what you're playing.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Humes are good at making you look dead inside and boring.

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Fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Fixed that for you.

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At least we send your kind into the mines.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Thanks for correcting me.

And also proving my point.

WTF ARE WE GOOD AT????

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You're good at not failing at any job.

Edit: Also, Taru have the worst MND in the game. Humes have much more MND than Taru. I believe you were looking at Elvaan as having higher MND than Humes.

Actually, the point of most of my posts here is to show people that it really doesn't matter about racial differences.

Humes are great at nothing. But we don't suck at anything either.
Galkas are great at mining. Anything else, they suck at.
Mithras are great Dancers. Anything else, they suck at.
Tarus are great footballs. Anything else, they suck at.
Elvaan are great............screw it, they suck at everything.

Does a well geared Taru BLM outnuke me when I'm BLM? Probably. But there are too few out there to boast the damage output I put out on a daily basis.
Does a well geared Elvaan WAR outdamage me when I'm WAR? Most likely, but again, too few out there to boast the damage.

It all comes down to how you gear the character, not just how your character has certain stats going their way.

Pro Tip: Merit HP 12/12 and build a decent PDT/MDT set.

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Originally Posted by Malacite

Pro Tip: Merit HP 12/12 and build a decent PDT/MDT set.

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Already have 12/12 HP merits, still have under 1150 HP on a NIN, and oh thank you... i hope it works for EVERY single job i have >.> and i'll be needing more inv space to carry it all around. /sarcasm