[dev1010] Job Adjustments

I think what's really nice about these adjustments is that most of it was taken straight from forum discussions. It's awesome to see devs really listening on the job specific forums.

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Originally Posted by Tazz

no exp loss levels 1 - 30 is a huge slap in the face for everyone who leveled up in valkurm dunes, which is more than likely eveveryone who has played FFXI. Crazy just crazy even with all the rr items and fov buffs. WOW is exp meaning nothing to the MMORPG anymore... ...

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Do you honestly care or you just saying? Why is it we must feel that because we suffered, everyone after us must suffer too? You never lost much experience anyway at those levels. What would be a slap in the face is no exp loss anymore for max levels because we spent so many years building exp buffers for all those end game deaths. But even then I'd be like, okay whatever who cares, no more exp loss HOT DAMN.

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Originally Posted by Catsby

Ok cool I totally missed the part in the update preview where it said it will enhance treasure hunter. As for the rest of the your post you both understand and misunderstand what you are saying. Step over to the RNG forum with me and we can discuss it there.

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No time to quibble, take it as is ^^ And you're welcome :)

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Originally Posted by Catsby

Maybe, but back in the day there was no clear vision for each of the job. The community essentially designed the jobs for whatever roles they needed. Now the developers are tapping into that and trying to refine each job. For a classed based game with 20 different classes it doesn't make much sense to have a class that fills every roll.

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What are you talking about? There's already a job with every player-available Roll: it's called Corsair. :p

In all seriousness, though, myself, like many other Red Mages I'm sure (excluding those who simply chose to not level White Mage because they were still in the ToAU days) leveled the job because it was advertised as a little bit of everything, and while I understand that community is important, I don't think it should be so powerful as to mandate a bait-and-switch like that . . .

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

What are you talking about? There's already a job with every player-available Roll: it's called Corsair. :p

In all seriousness, though, myself, like many other Red Mages I'm sure (excluding those who simply chose to not level White Mage because they were still in the ToAU days) leveled the job because it was advertised as a little bit of everything, and while I understand that community is important, I don't think they should be so powerful as to mandate a bait-and-switch like that . . .

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Aren't rdm still the best enfeeblers in the game? They are more a niche healer now, and abby makes refresh not so cool anymore, but it is migrating to a favorite subjob choice for many casters. Plus they still solo stuff pretty well. And I have some inkling that there will be 90-99 as post abyssea wherein refresh will be valued again.

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Originally Posted by AtrixWolfe

Aren't rdm still the best enfeeblers in the game? They are more a niche healer now, and abby makes refresh not so cool anymore, but it is migrating to a favorite subjob choice for many casters. Plus they still solo stuff pretty well. And I have some inkling that there will be 90-99 as post abyssea wherein refresh will be valued again.

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Don't get me wrong, I love the whole "come for the versatility, stay for the Enfeebling" bit. I actually wouldn't add much more to the job at all! I'm just saying that Tranquil Heart is excessive, and we probably should've gotten Fencer before Crits got their nerf. >.>

I absolutely love the exp death penalty thing, losing EXP is not something a new or returning player wants to go through a lot.

Do RDMs have the highest enfeebling skill in the game, yeah.

Are RDMs the best enfeebles in the game...define "best."

Not that it matters anyway since enfeeble immunity on anything worth enfeebling is becoming the new norm.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Do RDMs have the highest enfeebling skill in the game, yeah.

Are RDMs the best enfeebles in the game...define "best."

Not that it matters anyway since enfeeble immunity on anything worth enfeebling is becoming the new norm.

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Well, while you may not be able to stick the big ones on the important ones, paralyze and slow still work on most everything. I thought too the other part of rdm enfeebling was the speed at which they did it due to fastcast. Imo this is just is for making tanking/enmity control easier for tanks


I guess I see it less as a rdm/whm/sch buff and more as an indirect pld/thf/nin/dnc buff

See, the thing is is that Tranquil Heart does basically nothing on a Red Mage, since we literally cannot gain hate even if we tried. Like I said, all it is is an insult, a spit to the face, of an already long-since dead aspect of the Red Mage job.

I admonish the person who earlier claimed that this was slightly above Shield Mastery, because even that has a situational use or two for the reduced spell interruption while soloing (and I was offended by that, anyway, since I like soloing on /PLD).

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Originally Posted by Vold

Right, I feel so sorry for summoners. They haven't gotten anything in 10 years. They need to stop focusing on jobs like Puppetmaster that get everything.

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Fixed.

Please let this be only part 1 of job adjustments. No melee RDM updates in sight, and seeing more healling stuff tossed our way is beginning to depress me.

It's great that SE is trying to fix RNG crit and Bounty shot....

However, they completely ignored the big Enmity issue with RNGs in group play. As it is now, RNGs in a group just means any other melee is going to lose atk swings or WSs because the mob is running between melee and the RNG.

Or the RNG has to greatly hold back or do everything in melee range which completely kills the point of the "sweet spot" and True Shot.

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Originally Posted by HFX7686

No experience loss from 1 to 30 is kind of silly. Much too high. 1-10 maybe.

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Seems like Final Fantasy XI and XIV are going towards what most games now and days become, Super-Easy Mode. If people don't lose experience till 30, they are gonna whine more for high Tier Raises later levels because they got spoiled on no exp lost for a third of their levels. And it helps getting into a game when there are consequences like losing experience, because then it makes players more dedicated to get that exp back and beyond. If the game is too easy, then no one is going to bother playing it. It might not be Super-Easy Mode yet, but its going toward that direction, with 30-99 Abyssea leveling and now no experience lost from 1-30.

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Originally Posted by Catsby

Maybe, but back in the day there was no clear vision for each of the job. The community essentially designed the jobs for whatever roles they needed. Now the developers are tapping into that and trying to refine each job. For a classed based game with 20 different classes it doesn't make much sense to have a class that fills every roll.

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This is a bit of a catch 22 for RDM. While I can understand the concept of SE catering to styles of play the players have come up with for jobs (NIN is basically the prime example), RDM didn't so much have the luxury of that choice.

Physically, it's a no-brainer the job is lacking. Most of it's good melee gear was sub-par relative to other specialists under the 75 cap, and most of it is still "the best" today, minus a few tweaks. Pair this with lower skill caps and WS restrictions on a weapon class that wasn't really known for big damage to begin with (sword), and it's unsurprising people either never bothered with melee or shunned melee enthusiasts.

Magically, some might try to peg enfeebling as our bread and butter, but not really. If this was something SE truly wanted to embrace, there is a far greater variety of enfeebles they could give RDM. Addle was a start in this direction, but if I'm not mistaken, the DATs show WHM will be getting it eventually. All things considered, a WHM/RDM can enfeeble comparably to a RDM. Meanwhile, BLUs have a number of AoE debuffs, some currently unique to the job.

In terms of elemental magic, back in the day RDM's dealt with both magic accuracy issues on difficult mobs, and during the leveling process, being rather behind BLM when it came to tier ups. /SCH helped the former issue tremendously, and parts of the empyrean set are certainly good nuking pieces, but the job's still third rung under BLM and SCH, maybe even worse if you consider the potential of Automatons or BLUs with Charged Whisker solo cleaving.

Since people didn't want RDMs for lackluster melee and basically preferred BLMs for nuking (RDMs couldn't MB distortion with Blizz 2 until 55), all that really left was support. Unsurprisingly, people desperate for EXP put up with it, as no matter the MMO it's often a thankless and stressful task that other players tend to avoid. Eventually the idea that Convert and Refresh made RDM a "better healer than WHM" started circulating around, devoid of circumstance, and suddenly any problems people DID have with the job were blown off because people still invited it to heal. Add a dash of soloing antics exploiting Bind/Gravity/Zoning/Pinning, and we went from that to overpowered.

It's unfortunate it took basically every other job getting so far ahead for people to start thinking, "Hey, maybe RDM could use some attention..." but for those of who've been here all along, we're not at all surprised about this state of affairs. Of course, they'll all have varied ideas for repair, some as mundane as simply doling out Cure V... which just begs to repeat the job's position prior to Abyssea without offering any sense of diversity or charm. In short, those crackers are WHMs in denial.

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Seems like Final Fantasy XI and XIV are going towards what most games now and days become, Super-Easy Mode. If people don't lose experience till 30, they are gonna whine more for high Tier Raises later levels because they got spoiled on no exp lost for a third of their levels. And it helps getting into a game when there are consequences like losing experience, because then it makes players more dedicated to get that exp back and beyond. If the game is too easy, then no one is going to bother playing it. It might not be Super-Easy Mode yet, but its going toward that direction, with 30-99 Abyssea leveling and now no experience lost from 1-30.

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Losing EXP has never made me go, "Damn, I wanna get it back and then some!" Perhaps there's a brief pause for reflection on why the death occurred, but that can exist without the level downs and all the other situational inconveniences surrounding death, including weaknesses.

So, drop the haughty act. Time Sinks do not equate to true difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

It's great that SE is trying to fix RNG crit and Bounty shot....

However, they completely ignored the big Enmity issue with RNGs in group play. As it is now, RNGs in a group just means any other melee is going to lose atk swings or WSs because the mob is running between melee and the RNG.

Or the RNG has to greatly hold back or do everything in melee range which completely kills the point of the "sweet spot" and True Shot.

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With atma and gear getting max -enmity capped on rng is actually easy. While alone -50% on a very well geared ranger isn't enough to let them open house, it is pretty close for an average geared ranger.
If you combined this with a tank that has +enmity gear I can see enmity control as not a problem for ranger. Asking tanks to actually do that however might get difficult unfortunately.
I fought a snoll NM with -enmity capped, without food I could not pull hate from a pretty average geared thf no matter how hard I tried. I was able to do it after a while the 2nd fight however, when I did use a yellow curry bun. It was over 50% dead when I did this however, and the thf used accomplice and I never got hate again. Keep in mind +enmity gear caps at +100% so it has a lot more potential than -enmity. And then there's always the traditional way of doing it. Pairing with a thief in your party and letting them close a SATA skill chain which always let me open house before... though in all honesty the last time I got to try it out was a b tree aprty so I don't know if holds up end game.

So really the problem I see with RNG and DD that can't tank in general right now is not enmity but rather the tp feeding they do, and as far as tp feeding goes... Ranger doesn't get any subtle blow really. Not in gear or traits. And that might come down to whether or not you want a dd in your party or not these days.

Other than that, we're really good at blue procs for piercing.. and can do a fair amount of slashing.. and end game we do some sick dmg with the proper weapon :) I've heard both Cor and Rng can do 10k wildfires. And Jishnu's Radiance for 8k.

I dunno what to make of the exp changes. It's unnecessary imo. If there's no penalty for death it doesn't mean much. It's already lol in abyssea. People used to get upset. And avoid it at all costs. Due to experience gains it already is like, well at least my hp/mp is full. Or yay free teleport. Or yay, I zombie tanked this nm. And still gained exp after dying six times.

Only time RNG is any worse of a TP feeder than other DDs is when Barrage is ready. Considering the recent AGI change and how some of the popular gear boasts that, as well, RNG does sometimes get some indirect Subtle Blow. The biggest and legitimate gripe for the class is indeed how drawing a mob's focus winds up hurting everyone else in some manner and why the whole ranged -enmity thing really needs looked into.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

*clipped, but still awesome*

It's unfortunate it took basically every other job getting so far ahead for people to start thinking, "Hey, maybe RDM could use some attention..." but for those of who've been here all along, we're not at all surprised about this state of affairs. Of course, they'll all have varied ideas for repair, some as mundane as simply doling out Cure V... which just begs to repeat the job's position prior to Abyssea without offering any sense of diversity or charm. In short, those crackers are WHMs in denial.

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I . . . I think I love you now. o_o;

Disappointing for the job updates...not so much about the job itself getting update but....I think it quite a tease to be sectioning the job updates, when we know and you know the players really look forward to these, is there anything else u can tell us about future job updates?

This also should go in consideration with all job forums considering there has yet to be a single post from the C-reps team. (Not counting the first sticky post):cool:

I think we don't expect exact details but more so the direction you guys are taking with the jobs as of now?

I hope they do something about bullet material already. Seriously 20k a stack? I'm sure it'll go down after server merges.

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Originally Posted by AtrixWolfe

Aren't rdm still the best enfeeblers in the game? They are more a niche healer now, and abby makes refresh not so cool anymore, but it is migrating to a favorite subjob choice for many casters. Plus they still solo stuff pretty well. And I have some inkling that there will be 90-99 as post abyssea wherein refresh will be valued again.

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Pre-Tier2 merits, that A+ Enfeebling was a massive joke. Thanks to Slow II and Paralyze II however, yes, we are the best enfeeblers. However, Enfeebling can only get you so far. Admittedly, Slow II is godly, but Paralyze II has always been up in the air pre-Saboteur.

I do have to address one thing.

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And I have some inkling that there will be 90-99 as post abyssea wherein refresh will be valued again.

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Out of all the things, this is what most RDMs don't want. Throughout the entirety of RDM's lifespan in FFXI it has always been defined by Refresh. Refresh made us valuable healer in exp parties, Refresh made us better than WHMs, Refresh made us powerful soloists, and most of all Refresh (and Convert, admittedly) has made the community and the developers fear any update that ever came our way, even for DD purposes.

Refresh doesn't make the job "just fine", but that's been our niche ever since 2005. If we are meant to be the strongest enfeeblers, then the developers need to stop twiddling our thumbs and give us more enfeebles, not something as idiotic as tranquil heart (due to the many roles RDM can take up, it shouldn't have their native enmity messed with at all).

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Originally Posted by Sayelle

Yeah really, with the exp buff last update and spammable FoV pages there was really no reason to get rid of the exp penalty for dying.

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if exp is so easy to get these days that the exp penalty hardly matter anymore, then does it really matter if they removed it?
these exp changes mostly aren't aimed for veteran and established players, its for new and returning players to compensate the decrease in population.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Losing EXP has never made me go, "Damn, I wanna get it back and then some!" Perhaps there's a brief pause for reflection on why the death occurred, but that can exist without the level downs and all the other situational inconveniences surrounding death, including weaknesses.

So, drop the haughty act. Time Sinks do not equate to true difficulty.

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I didn't mean it to sound like getting Exp back after dying is fun, but it is a part of the game...or was at least. I'm just worried players are going to think its too easy, or not worth the time.

Yes, well, I'm also tired of how every MMO I look into, I see people whining about how they don't want whatever to be "easy mode" because WoW did X, things are "supposed" to be rare, some guy they'll never ever want to play with anyway is hurting their game by not "earning" something, people with no lives should be better rewarded, or whatever bullsquat excuse is played. As is, death carries the following penalties even without EXP loss:

1) Time spent waiting for a raise is potential loot and EXP not gained.
2) Waiting on Weakness is similar to 1, though partially offset if you're a non-critical role in a group.
3) If solo and 1 isn't possible, further time is lost if returning to the area you died in.
4) You potentially hamper quest/mission progress.
5) If solo, you'll obviously have to start over again on a specific mob if that was your goal. This can be tied to 4.
6) If you were after a contested monster, it might not be there when you return.

Overall, regardless of the game, it's rare the process of EXPing is what people consider fun. Making people have to do more of the things they don't enjoy is a surefire way to discontent and possible account cancellation. As juvenile as some may feel it, people have quit over the EXP loss mechanic. It made classes like THF hate themselves back in the day as popular sacrificial pullers in Dynamis, only to never get invited to EXP later. PLDs went through similar simply tanking. Nowadays this isn't so much a concern since endgame EXP is certainly more superfluous, but that generosity isn't as prevalent in the lowbie levels. In general, how you EXP doesn't exactly reflect how you would behave in an endgame environment, either. Ever hear talk of how "Campaign noobs" sucked at their jobs because they were meleeing mages or wearing some kind of non-standard gear? Well, that's kind of replaced by Abyssea leeches today, but the moment any mob does more than just auto-attack/TP move/cast spells once engaged like with EXP, you'll need to learn on the fly.

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Originally Posted by Carth

Refresh doesn't make the job "just fine", but that's been our niche ever since 2005. If we are meant to be the strongest enfeeblers, then the developers need to stop twiddling our thumbs and give us more enfeebles, not something as idiotic as tranquil heart (due to the many roles RDM can take up, it shouldn't have their native enmity messed with at all).

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Unless they're out to nerf what remains of Red Mage tanking.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Unless they're out to nerf what remains of Red Mage tanking.

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Nothing remains of Red Mage tanking right now. To repeat what I said earlier, all this does is spits in its grave.

Well, that, and the grave of PLD/RDM (which they killed with equal impudence).

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Only time RNG is any worse of a TP feeder than other DDs is when Barrage is ready. Considering the recent AGI change and how some of the popular gear boasts that, as well, RNG does sometimes get some indirect Subtle Blow. The biggest and legitimate gripe for the class is indeed how drawing a mob's focus winds up hurting everyone else in some manner and why the whole ranged -enmity thing really needs looked into.

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Well, lets look at other jobs;

Monk and Dancer from traits get 20% reduced feeding, and have gear options
Ninja gets 25% from traits and has gear options

Thief I know has enough gear options to cap it, or very close to.

That leaves us SAM, DRK, DRG and RNG
Out of these I would loosely say:
RNG > SAM = DRG > DRK though feel free to prove me wrong.

RNG has both snapshot and rapidshot, and if you sub sam as well you have ws spam. IMO the high delay combined with the fact we have an instant attack occasionally, and the fact we feed up to 9 shots with a barrage, instantly, is crazy.
Sam has ws spam.
DRG's ws's are multi-hit, and has jumps
and DRK has spells.

I am not entirely sure on itemization for all jobs listed here, but I do know for ranger any subtle blow gear is extremely rare. On the other hand, we do lend a bit of enmity control by not being required to be healed when mobs use most AoE attacks.

I really think that with a community that becomes more focused on proper enmity control via +enmity and -enmity gear on respective party members, these enmity issues are a non issue. It's just you can't get anyone to actually do it.

You have already heard how capping -enmity let me basically open house when a thf was evasion tanking and not even doing that great of damage. Imagine that thf was doing great damage and had +enmity gear. And imagine there was a second thief in the party to help stick enmity on the thief. I guess I just see complaining about it to SE as not a good thing when there is still things players can do to make it better. I guess I feel we are not playing to our potential because it is not cool to do so. I guess you make of it what you will. It's just, when I mentioned this to a good player in game they yelled at me asking why I'd use an atma on enmity, that it was stupid. It's not stupid if it allows you, in the end, to do more damage. That snoll nm died so much quicker because I could combo the heck out of it with no fear. -enmity and +enmity too work off percentages, meaning the more dmg you do, the more that gear is effective on you, because the bigger enmity differences it makes. Meaning if that thief was more well geared and did more damage, that enmity gear would count for even more. And if they use accomplice I'm certain it applies there as well. With the potential for a tank to DOUBLE their enmity I do not see why more tanks don't have a full enmity set. As when it comes down to it even the lack of some defense or evasion matters less than making sure that the beefiest target is the one receiving the damage. RNG has zero defensive skills. If I get hit, I can die in 3 crits. Or one really nasty skill, or attack round. To compliment that we have awesome damage *potential* as well as the ability to deliver that damage from back row. Plus, we have ALOT of -enmity gear options now, way more than we ever had before. Me thinks this is why SE is not addressing enmity with ranger. It isn't necessary, it would make it easier, sure but necessary? I don't think it is. Setting the community mindset to deal with this however, to make what is possible done.. rare probably, if it happens at all.

On one hand I'm glad SE opened up discussions like this. On the other, I fear it becoming like WoW where they let the community bully them into what they want whether it is good, bad, or another thing; there has to be some balance I hope they find the high road. Unfortunately I think if they do it will end up frustrating many players because no one likes good compromise.

Erg it's not that clear cut....

I really don't want to do the maths on it so i'll try and keep it basic...

Mobs gain (Base TP + 3)*(subtle blow mod)

It's the +3 that is the reason that MNKs DNCs NINs need subtle blow otherwise mobs would gain crazy tp.

Also jobs that use two handed weapons and store tp to get certain hit build feed the lowest amount of tp to a mob per 100tp.

RNG is pretty much the same too.

Any comparing DD for feeding tp is really dumb since there all really close when you work it out for how much tp you feed to a mob every 100 tp.

Either way it's more to do with how many DDs u have on mob than what the DDs.
And it depends a hell of alot more on how much haste/snapshot/rapid shot a DD has on than what job it is.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Yes, well, I'm also tired of how every MMO I look into, I see people whining about how they don't want whatever to be "easy mode" because WoW did X, things are "supposed" to be rare, some guy they'll never ever want to play with anyway is hurting their game by not "earning" something, people with no lives should be better rewarded, or whatever bullsquat excuse is played. As is, death carries the following penalties even without EXP loss:

1) Time spent waiting for a raise is potential loot and EXP not gained.
2) Waiting on Weakness is similar to 1, though partially offset if you're a non-critical role in a group.
3) If solo and 1 isn't possible, further time is lost if returning to the area you died in.
4) You potentially hamper quest/mission progress.
5) If solo, you'll obviously have to start over again on a specific mob if that was your goal. This can be tied to 4.
6) If you were after a contested monster, it might not be there when you return.

Overall, regardless of the game, it's rare the process of EXPing is what people consider fun. Making people have to do more of the things they don't enjoy is a surefire way to discontent and possible account cancellation. As juvenile as some may feel it, people have quit over the EXP loss mechanic. It made classes like THF hate themselves back in the day as popular sacrificial pullers in Dynamis, only to never get invited to EXP later. PLDs went through similar simply tanking. Nowadays this isn't so much a concern since endgame EXP is certainly more superfluous, but that generosity isn't as prevalent in the lowbie levels. In general, how you EXP doesn't exactly reflect how you would behave in an endgame environment, either. Ever hear talk of how "Campaign noobs" sucked at their jobs because they were meleeing mages or wearing some kind of non-standard gear? Well, that's kind of replaced by Abyssea leeches today, but the moment any mob does more than just auto-attack/TP move/cast spells once engaged like with EXP, you'll need to learn on the fly.

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You know now that I think about it. I don't know what I'm really complaining about. Maybe its just hatred for how easy Abyssea is, When you make 30-99 in about 12 hours (or something like that, I haven't tried it) it just seems no one learns their job, then cram the server with people who don't know what they are doing, making looking to do quests and missions harder on certain servers if you don't have any friends anymore....but I digress, I'm getting off topic

What has two thumbs and loves the job adjustments? This guy.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

What has two thumbs and loves the job adjustments? This guy.

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(o¬_¬)|"' Indeed my good chap.

I wish people would stop acting surprised every update when RDM doesn't get more melee gear...

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Originally Posted by blowfin

I wish people would stop acting surprised every update when RDM doesn't get more melee gear...

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The developers are ignoring the elephant in the room. Hell, it's already wrecked the furniture and keeps fidgeting as if it wants to go to the bathroom, but the devs keep happily ignoring it. Should we not act surprised?

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Originally Posted by blowfin

I wish people would stop acting surprised every update when RDM doesn't get more melee gear...

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The very fact that it's not surprising is what makes it all the more objectionable!

If you want surprising, the level cap increases to 80 and 85 were (to different degrees) actually rather kind to us in the melee equipment department, and for this the dev team still has my utmost appreciation. If they could keep that direction up and give us Fencer finally, I quite simply couldn't ask for anything more.

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The developers are ignoring the elephant in the room. Hell, it's already wrecked the furniture and keeps fidgeting as if it wants to go to the bathroom, but the devs keep happily ignoring it. Should we not act surprised?

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RDM is already an exceptionally strong job. They can't just keep adding to it's utility, i feel something else would need to be sacrificed if it were given more melee DD potential. If you could sacrifice something about the job to get what you wanted, what would that thing be?

Now, now, if RDM actually got attention, you wouldn't be able to whine about me on BG.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

RDM is already an exceptionally strong job. They can't just keep adding to it's utility, i feel something else would need to be sacrificed if it were given more melee DD potential. If you could sacrifice something about the job to get what you wanted, what would that thing be?

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You ask the fatal question, my friend. In Duelleland, where the fun never stops at only $50 a pop, Refresh I and II turned into self-cast only spells.

Since that'll never happen (not to mention the sh*tstorm that would come from the career backrow RDMs), I'd say RDM would need a mechanic through which to shift resources and stats. Good melee, decent & reliable enfeebling, below-average support. Good support, decent & reliable healing, below-average melee. Nuking can be made to fit somewhere in there, prefferably with 3-5 yalm range for nukes while in melee mode, but either shorter cast times or instant casts on a 1-minute cooldown. That way, you can't do everything at once on RDM by cluttering your inventory with gear.

I'm well aware that any meaningful change would require a notable amount of work and rebalancing, but that's where I stand on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

Erg it's not that clear cut....

I really don't want to do the maths on it so i'll try and keep it basic...

Mobs gain (Base TP + 3)*(subtle blow mod)

It's the +3 that is the reason that MNKs DNCs NINs need subtle blow otherwise mobs would gain crazy tp.

Also jobs that use two handed weapons and store tp to get certain hit build feed the lowest amount of tp to a mob per 100tp.

RNG is pretty much the same too.

Any comparing DD for feeding tp is really dumb since there all really close when you work it out for how much tp you feed to a mob every 100 tp.

Either way it's more to do with how many DDs u have on mob than what the DDs.
And it depends a hell of alot more on how much haste/snapshot/rapid shot a DD has on than what job it is.

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See things like this is why I really am starting to despise posting any input at all.
A) The rest of my post was ignored
B) You're basically saying something not true in a very condescending tone for what I can only gather is the sake of it.

You're basically saying "Subtle blow doesn't matter. All DD's are the same". I'm sorry but everything in existence points to the contrary. For one, observations I have to contrary. Try having two Thieves hit on a mob. Then switch to one Thief and one Ranger and notice the HUGE difference in tp feeding. If you think 25% reduction in the tp given is equivalent to zero... lol at you. I've seen it's effects and it's huge.

No other job that I know of, can just basically get zero delay randomly in attack rounds. Haste? Sure. No other job has something like barrage either. In any case, math is useless if you don't do it right or have improper premise.

Whatever, maybe one day I will find a community that can responsibly discuss things, without having a show and tell for their epeen size, but obviously it isn't this one, here, or now. I had high hopes yet again, for some stupid reason, I guess have fun QQing about jobs that were over useful forever (RDM), and about updates that along with enmity upgrades in gear, and atma make them pretty useful (RNG), and don't focus on other things like jobs that were undervalued for long periods of time (WHM) are coming into full use again.. I get the feeling people are just forming little popularity cliques, all this just pretty much makes me not want to input anything at all, leaving SE to the mercy of your whiney salty tears... See, good input, ignored, then you focus on saying ridiculous things like "Subtle blow does not matter all". Might as well say haste doesn't haste, or defense doesn't help mitigate damage. Well, laters. It was fun while it lasted, I suppose.

I don't think it's so much the matter of actual TP feed, but I believe the larger a chunk of damage done, the higher the possibility a mob will react with a TP if it has TP. I find things like Shadow mobs are more sensitive to this behavior as darn near time I can think I've WSed them and them still being over 25%, they almost always counter with Dimensional Death if they have TP (And given the +3 thing, it usually means they do).

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Originally Posted by Tazz

no exp loss levels 1 - 30 is a huge slap in the face for everyone who leveled up in valkurm dunes, which is more than likely eveveryone who has played FFXI. Crazy just crazy even with all the rr items and fov buffs. WOW is exp meaning nothing to the MMORPG anymore... ...

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Well, that's the evolution of things. And speaking as one who's played FFXI since 2002, I, for one, welcome this change. I think games should be about adventure and killing hard things, not endlessly killing the same thing over and over just to fill bars.

Cry a river, build a bridge, and get over it. :P

Lol you give RDM and BLU MORE STUFF?


DRK better get some kind of mini-impact and Drain III at the minimum.