[dev1009] Seriously.... how could you make the HNM system worse...

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

If i could agree with you without admitting I'm part of that race.

I would.

I really really would.

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We could start with Asura server :P

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Originally Posted by Kari

A lot of idiots begged for outside exp to be good again, and for reasons to exp outside of Aby.
However, if someone needs KSs, they aren't going to hop in an old-school XP party for them, they're going to solo it or do it with friends. This causes people to do things outside of Aby no more than Magian Trials do.

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It does not matter if you XP in or out of abyssea. you have to fight those EP mobs for KS as they wont drop anymore outside of abyssea than inside it since SE blundered the rate.

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Originally Posted by Kari

A lot of idiots begged for outside exp to be good again, and for reasons to exp outside of Aby.
However, if someone needs KSs, they aren't going to hop in an old-school XP party for them, they're going to solo it or do it with friends. This causes people to do things outside of Aby no more than Magian Trials do.

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A lot of the complaints were for "Reasons to visit old zones"

So replace "Exp oldschool" with "Reasons to visit old zones" in my argument :(

I think my point stands. This is proof the Dev team listens to us, Even if they implemented it in an Ingeniously insidious way.

Sp1cryan you really find camping NMs that much better than farming EPs? Seriously you guys just sound lazy. This is a 100% way to get pops and all you can do is complain. Wow you might actually have to pay attention to get pops, that's just ridiculous.

Also no I don't go on KI any more but it was hardly a joke of a site back in the day. I'd respond more then that but you're just being rude and derailing the thread so I'm just going to ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

A lot of the complaints were for "Reasons to visit old zones"

So replace "Exp oldschool" with "Reasons to visit old zones" in my argument :(

I think my point stands. This is proof the Dev team listens to us, Even if they implemented it in an Ingeniously insidious way.

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That scares me. The people who post here are not only generally clueless, but just post suggestions I hope never happen. It is sad the official forums had to end up this way. I remember SE posting on Zam saying they read the threads there, What ever happened to that? Zam is made fun of to, but it is not nearly as bad as the people here.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

A lot of the complaints were for "Reasons to visit old zones"

So replace "Exp oldschool" with "Reasons to visit old zones" in my argument :(

I think my point stands. This is proof the Dev team listens to us, Even if they implemented it in an Ingeniously insidious way.

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Replace 'ingeniously insidious' with 'maliciously stupid' and I'll agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

A lot of the complaints were for "Reasons to visit old zones"

So replace "Exp oldschool" with "Reasons to visit old zones" in my argument :(

I think my point stands. This is proof the Dev team listens to us, Even if they implemented it in an Ingeniously insidious way.

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lol, well still, Magians make me revisit old zones more than farming KSs ever will. [As farming KSs would likely just be one zone, forever.]
I only wish the DEV team listened to us closer, as we hoped for a slightly less tedious method of BB obtaining.

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Originally Posted by Daremo

Replace 'ingeniously insidious' with 'maliciously stupid' and I'll agree with you.

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I'll compromise

Maliciously ingenious.

Edit: Been using Google Translate to try and see how the JP's feel, and i can say, I have no clue.

I don't think they're upset as we are, but i think a few of them are upset about the removing BB items from NQs, But i also think a lot of them care more about D.ring and some Abj's than BB items.

Ok lets get back on track...

I understand that people may like this change because it makes it 100% (meaning that instead of a chance at a chance (HNM claiming) you are practically guaranteed to fight NM X) - which on this aspect I'm all for. No one is calling for these things to be handed to them on a silver platter. At the end if it all, I'm trying to point out that Effort =/= Reward in the case of this particular update. Balancing Effort and Reward is one of the defining and fundamental things in game design - and in this instance there is a glaring unbalance.

I think this is kinda weak, too. My monk is level 15 and staying there, and as other have pointed out, almost all the other drops are worthless. Most of us will agree on the value of Defending Ring. I still think Ridill is a decent offhand weapon. Outside of that, these NMs don't mean much to me personally. That said, I think this system was a horrible idea. Someone posted about how we can solo the lower tier versions at this point. Now we're going to need full parties for KBC99. We also need seals, and that can take a while. Add on lower drop rates when you finally get through to the higher tier HNM. It's a ridiculously involved process. It's going to create a lot of congestion at the KBC arenas and spawn areas for a while. EXP parties are going to turn into kindred seal lotting wars lol. It's also going to be significantly easier to do mercenary activities. Now you can do a mercenary run at any time!

This is just illogical. I don't understand why Square-Enix thinks it needs to keep creating increasingly more annoying/draining time sinks in a game with so much content. I get they want our subscription dollars, but there's so much content, time sinks aren't prudent. Say what you want about WoW, but the reason it has like a billion times the subscribers as FFXI is because there is less time demand on the player and more sense of achievement. Why hasn't SE learned anything from the more successful competition? The terrible product that FF XIV shows clearly how out of touch SE is with the user base.

I think people are just afraid of doing work. They use 'can't solo it' as an excuse.

As it stands now(and I'll use Behemoth as the example), people can solo the NQ mob. I usually have about 5 people trying to claim the NQ to solo it. so 20% chance of claim, and 15% chance of that to drop per day. So I'm looking at about 3% per day that I'm going to get my tongue. Plus there are days where the HQ pops that you won't be able to solo it. If it is NQ pop while the HQ window is open the chances of solo people claiming it over a party camping KB is even more slim.

I don't see why people don't have seals, but if you don't I think farming KS/finding a group/killing KS99 > NQ > HQ is going to be a lot better chance AND a lot faster than how it is now. You just have to put in more work into it.

Also, as an alternative, just exp inside abyssea and npc your crap for gil. A bunch of people want D. Rings, and those people also have a lot of Kindred seals. They're going to be doing this A LOT especially after the update. Just camp in the zone and when people come to kill offer them gil for the tongue if it drops, I guarantee you'll get one a lot faster than you can now.

Good move square enix. good move :)

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Originally Posted by Sp1cyryan

No one uses with your staff and it causes you to have these ideas worthy of multiple facepalms. I am also not trying to derail this thread. Threads evolve and change with the discussion, and expecting one to stay on topic is simply against human nature.

People are not lazy for not wanting to do something absolutely boring and annoying. It is easier to have a ToD and get lucky with a pop soon after getting there. Even if it does not pop right away you have 30 minutes to have a real life. People do actually have those even if you seem to ignore that fact by wanting them to spend hours upon hours farming EPs in a six man group (once again, that will not really happen in such numbers commonly). You get 30 minutes to go do laundry, homework, clean the dishes, and so on.

Saying it is lazy to not spend hours farming KSs out of a preference to claim a time spawn like saying you want to get off a highway to travel on some dirt road because the highway is for lazy people with cruise control in their cars who don't have to even keep their foot on the pedal.

Please, find a little sense.

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/thread...

I <3 you.

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Originally Posted by Sp1cyryan

I missed the 100% part.

You see, because making the HQs not drop the BB item most people are after when they fight it would be the exact opposite of 100%.

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100% meaning, instead of having a chance to claim, it will be yours for sure.

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Originally Posted by Snaplin

/thread...

I <3 you.

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Thank you, but if I ever got serious and posted more here (and got banned because honestly a person like me can't make it around here) you would find out that I am the person people love to hate.

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Originally Posted by KigenAngelios

100% meaning, instead of having a chance to claim, it will be yours for sure.

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Yeah, yeah, I know.

Just saying it be much easier to just make the NM repop every 3-6 hours with the HQs being twice a day. That easily amounts to the NMs getting to a point where it is common to see them sitting up. People would still do the KSNM99 for the BB items too if they did not want to camp, and would not be pigeon holed into some stupid time sink.

All the whining here is hilarious.

Do you seriously want to go back to paying 10,000,000 gil to another LS for three Quest Items?

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Originally Posted by Sp1cyryan

Yeah, yeah, I know.

Just saying it be much easier to just make the NM repop every 3-6 hours with the HQs being twice a day. That easily amounts to the NMs getting to a point where it is common to see them sitting up. People would still do the KSNM99 for the BB items too if they did not want to camp, and would not be pigeon holed into some stupid time sink.

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I'm not disagreeing with you by any means. I think this instance is a good compromise and would be a welcome change. My original point is that this HNM change is unacceptable because as you said it "pigeon hold[s players] into some stupid time sink.",

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

All the whining here is hilarious.

Do you seriously want to go back to paying 10,000,000 gil to another LS for three Quest Items?

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What is this? 2007?

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Originally Posted by Sp1cyryan

What is this? 2007?

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Considering 10 Mil would be a likely total for all 3 items...nah, not really.

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

Considering 10 Mil would be a likely total for all 3 items...nah, not really.

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Oh, sorry, 2008.

Anyway, what makes you think if they did something more efficient like make the NQs pop every 3-6 hours that people be paying "10m" for a BB?

Most LSs probably would not even camp it as it not be worth the money. You would have little groups of friends low man it and charge that. The same people that sell Loki's Kaftan for 3m in Port Jeuno because people are dumb and buy it. We should make him a KSNM force pop too to solve it!

I can't wait to see the GM calls when people get out claimed on their popped NM.

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- The NM will despawn if unclaimed for 90 seconds at the spawned location.

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Pretty sure that implies that the kings will pop unclaimed. Boy what a fun voke fest that will become. Why bother camping or seal farming when you can just steal someone else's pop?

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Originally Posted by Sp1cyryan

Oh, sorry, 2008.

Anyway, what makes you think if they did something more efficient like make the NQs pop every 3-6 hours that people be paying "10m" for a BB?

Most LSs probably would not even camp it as it not be worth the money. You would have little groups of friends low man it and charge that. The same people that sell Loki's Kaftan for 3m in Port Jeuno because people are dumb and buy it. We should make him a KSNM force pop too to solve it!

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You can't compare Turul to an HNM that spawns once or twice every week. You just can't.

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Originally Posted by Sp1cyryan

No one uses with your staff and it causes you to have these ideas worthy of multiple facepalms. I am also not trying to derail this thread. Threads evolve and change with the discussion, and expecting one to stay on topic is simply against human nature.

People are not lazy for not wanting to do something absolutely boring and annoying. It is easier to have a ToD and get lucky with a pop soon after getting there. Even if it does not pop right away you have 30 minutes to have a real life. People do actually have those even if you seem to ignore that fact by wanting them to spend hours upon hours farming EPs in a six man group (once again, that will not really happen in such numbers commonly). You get 30 minutes to go do laundry, homework, clean the dishes, and so on.

Saying it is lazy to not spend hours farming KSs out of a preference to claim a time spawn like saying you want to get off a highway to travel on some dirt road because the highway is for lazy people with cruise control in their cars who don't have to even keep their foot on the pedal.

Please, find a little sense.

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It's pretty sad you have to resort to trying petty insults about a double entendre in my sig. I also find it funny that you think I'm retarded because I think that you should actually have to play the game in order to be rewarded.

Lazy is by definition is an aversion to work or effort. Camping as you say is not really much effort because you can leave the game in between windows. Given your admission saying you prefer to camp over farming pops is confirming that you want to take a route that for you is easier and requires essentially less effort on your part. That is laziness unless you're just deluding yourself. I can understand you're saying the game should be fun and farming EPs is just plain boring but you also seem to be arguing that this system is worse than the previous. By your own admission you would rather be rewarded for randomly getting lucky than putting in a shred of effort. The new system a least makes sure the person is actually putting some effort into getting pops.

Rather than provide any ideas as to what a better system would be. You feel the need to deride anyone who is ok with these adjustments. I guess it's easier just to wish the death of countless people because they make suggestions you don't agree with you. That's obviously what any sensible person would suggest. We should eat bleach and die because you're so much superior then all us mouthbreathers.

Also as a note I'm not against them keeping the old system in addition to this one. It still stands though that unless BB items are like 10-20% drop rate off HQ kings this is a better system than the current.

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Originally Posted by Orson

It's pretty sad you have to resort to trying petty insults about a double entendre in my sig. I also find it funny that you think I'm retarded because I think that you should actually have to play the game in order to be rewarded.

Lazy is by definition is an aversion to work or effort. Camping as you say is not really much effort because you can leave the game in between windows. Given your admission saying you prefer to camp over farming pops is confirming that you want to take a route that for you is easier and requires essentially less effort on your part. That is laziness unless you're just deluding yourself. I can understand you're saying the game should be fun and farming EPs is just plain boring but you also seem to be arguing that this system is worse than the previous. By your own admission you would rather be rewarded for randomly getting lucky than putting in a shred of effort. The new system a least makes sure the person is actually putting some effort into getting pops.

Rather than provide any ideas as to what a better system would be. You feel the need to deride anyone who is ok with these adjustments. I guess it's easier just to wish the death of countless people because they make suggestions you don't agree with you. That's obviously what any sensible person would suggest. We should eat bleach and die because you're so much superior then all us mouthbreathers.

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Sorry, I can not reply to you about how I find your points to be [strike]stupid[/strike] silly and nonsensical, and how I think this could have been better done because I will get another email from SE and probably lose access to playing FFXI.

EDIT: SE also ninja edited their OP.

Ya I thought so you can't come up with a reasonable argument that doesn't evolve insulting someone.

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Originally Posted by Orson

Ya I thought so you can't come up with a reasonable argument that doesn't evolve insulting someone.

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Dear good sir. I respectfully have to decline to respond to your points. In fact I have to go back and delete my posts because SE is sending me modification emails left and right.

EDIT: Anyway, since hopefully there is nothing else SE will ban me for saying (since it must all be nice and fluffy apparently) I am going to go back to AH.com as I am being e-thuged out of here via email. If you actually do care for a response Orson I will give you one there, and will be somewhat serious about it as a treat.


Hmm, let me sneak something relevant in here.

Dear devs, balance the KC and KS drop rate a little more than pretty much always having a KC drop and this will be a non-issue.

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Fafnir : Wyrm Beard removed
Nidhogg : Drop rate of Wyrm Beard decreased
Behemoth : Behemoth Tongue removed
King Behemoth : Drop rate of Behemoth Tongue decreased
Adamantoise : Adamantoise Egg removed
Aspidochelone : Drop rate of Adamantoise Egg decreased

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what the .....??!! Why they gotta go and mess with the drops like that? It was only what--5-10% on the NQ's already. And dropping the rate on the HQ???!! After jumping through all the hoops to get to the fight, and you don't get the item and you have to start all over again? This is a just one big clusterf...

Fail.

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Originally Posted by Chaani

Good game SE, this ranks right up there with relieving Abyssea congestion by adding seals to the visions zones.

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Umm.... not trying to be a jerk here but how does it cause MORE congestion in Abyssea zones when MORE mobs are being added that drop the items?? What we have is congestion now..... I personally hate having to basically fight for mobs for seals. Sorry, but what you are saying here is preposterous in my opinion.

People complain about people botting HNMs so SE finally does something about it,
Result = Lots of people QQing

People say that the gear is obsolite from HNMs, so SE changes the system since no one really cares,
Result = lots of people QQing(mostly people saying the gear is now obsolite)

People complain about other monopolizing the HNMs and you have to have a substantial amount of gil to complete Black belt, SE changes it
Result = Lots of people QQing

People say HNM is a dead scene so SE make changes,
Result = Lots of people QQing

so basically anything that gets complained about should stay as they are? coz if SE makes a change to a dead system you just complain even more? what the hell is people's problem?

TBH the system is dead and should make these HNMs more accessible. i personally quite like this idea of making the HNMs popable since this eliminates botters and monopolization. also BB quest become more leasurable.

imo people who complete BB should NOT get an atma for it. what to other jobs get? thats right nothing

people want to see changes so SE makes changes you all complain more. people say that HNMs sit untouched for hours and sometimes days coz onone really wants to do them now coz the gear is obsolite. or is all the QQing about the following:-

1) you all dont have any Kindred Seals?
2) used them all?
3) tossed them coz KS99 is dead?

i think this is the main reason for all the cimplaining about this change, having almost 1300 KS's is nice, now i have something thats worth using em for.

end of the day if you get forexample 6-12 people and spam KS99 then you spam Fafnir then you spam Nidhogg, you still get to fight it more often. oh wait, i get it, people thinking how they can benift/profit/get more out of it than anyone else, thats all its about. i personally dont mind using KS's for others to get the BB item

i am all for the change and cant wait for it and before you say that i am all for "easy mode" i aint, i dont even have mnk leveled, its level 1

and to be honest people need to get out abyssea more

I don't mind this way, but I have two issues.

1. If you happened to die after wasting 99 KS, fighting the Adamantoise for a KI and then someone can just wait around to steal it. Then it's messed up.

2. Why lessen the drop of the only item people do this for?

People who are expecting to spam HQ HNMs obviously don't realize that no where does it say the HQ pop items are 100% or even a decent drop rate, so basically 99 KS =/= HQ pop.

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

People who are expecting to spam HQ HNMs obviously don't realize that no where does it say the HQ pop items are 100% or even a decent drop rate, so basically 99 KS =/= HQ pop.

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Fafnir: Treasure from “Early Bird Catches the Wyrm”
Nidhogg: Treasure dropped by Fafnir
Behemoth: Treasure from “Horns of War”
King Behemoth: Treasure dropped by Behemoth
Adamantoise: Treasure from “The Hills are Alive”
Aspidochelone: Treasure dropped by Adamantoise

* At least one of these items will be dropped in every battle.

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also instead of just doing ks99 for a chance on an item, you get:-
* a chance on an item
* free nq king pop or multiple
* Possible multiple hq king pop (from NQ)
* and possible 2nd chance (if you beat nq)?

sounds like win for mnks they increased the chance to get BB item, people sound like KS are as rare as seing a d.ring drop get the hell out of abyssea then and do something else. SE never said anything about removing BB item from KS99 so untill they say so expect that it does since theydid mention that BB items are removed from NQ kings

edited to reflect OP edit

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

People who are expecting to spam HQ HNMs obviously don't realize that no where does it say the HQ pop items are 100% or even a decent drop rate, so basically 99 KS =/= HQ pop.

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And there is the rub. Do the KS99 for NQ pop item, which no longer has a chance to drop the target item--but can drop pop for HQ version. Now that HQ version will have a reduced drop rate. So, now you may have to do 3 fights and if you still have an unlucky roll and don't get the item, you have to do it ALL again.

Dropping the rate on the HQ doesn't bother me so much so long as the rate stays high and is not the 5-10% rates like some have seen with some of the NQ versions in the past--but I really don't get why they are pulling the drop from the NQ version all together.

1/5 chance to get item from KS99 fight, 100% chance to get NQ pop item
Fight NQ NM for what used to be 1/10 chance for item, now removed--but might get pop item for HQ NM (they didn't state if the HQ pop item will be 100% or what--imagine if it isn't).
Fight HQ NM for a chance to get item (drop rate unknown, but USED to be 100%).

So if you don't get the drop from the KS99 or the HQ NM , now you've done 3 fights and have to start over again. If you don't get it from the KS99 again, then you have 2 more fights and might still not get it. That means 6 fights and still no drop--and have to do it again.

In short, this has the potential to have a much worse drop rate than just spammning the KS99 as it is now.

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Originally Posted by darkvision

also instead of just doing ks99 for a chance on an item, you get:-
* a chance on an item
* free nq king pop
* free hq king pop (from NQ)
* and 2nd chance (if you beat nq)?

sounds like win for mnks they increased the chance to get BB item, people sound like KS are as rare as seing a d.ring drop get the hell out of abyssea then and do something else. SE never said anything about removing BB item from KS99 so untill they say so expect that it does since theydid mention that BB items are removed from NQ kings

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The part you quoted states that the NQ pops are 100% drop rate not the HQ.

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Originally Posted by darkvision

also instead of just doing ks99 for a chance on an item, you get:-
* a chance on an item
* free nq king pop
* free hq king pop (from NQ)
* and 2nd chance (if you beat nq)?

sounds like win for mnks they increased the chance to get BB item, people sound like KS are as rare as seing a d.ring drop get the hell out of abyssea then and do something else. SE never said anything about removing BB item from KS99 so untill they say so expect that it does since theydid mention that BB items are removed from NQ kings

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Fafnir: Treasure from “Early Bird Catches the Wyrm”
Behemoth: Treasure from “Horns of War”
Adamantoise: Treasure from “The Hills are Alive”
* At least one of these items will be dropped in every battle.

Nidhogg: Treasure dropped by Fafnir
King Behemoth: Treasure dropped by Behemoth
Aspidochelone: Treasure dropped by Adamantoise

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So by the sounds of it, only the KSNM is 100% drop, with a chance for multiple drops from the KSNM.

So basically, 1 step forward, 196465745686749867459857389579846749865374 steps back.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

So by the sounds of it, only the KSNM is 100% drop, with a chance for multiple drops from the KSNM.

So basically, 1 step forward, 196465745686749867459857389579846749865374 steps back.

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well they changed that from when they first posted but still gives possible more chances to get BB items

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Originally Posted by Orson

Did you actually read the post? They giving us the ability to fight these way more often. You can farm KSs really really easily. Whether any people with fight anything other than King Behemoth will remain to be seen.

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Did YOU actually read the post?

This is the only way to get Black Belt items. How you can even suggest people might only kill KB is beyond me.

The king system just got a lot more tedious. You thought fighting against bots was bad; now you have to farm seals for hours and hours a day.

For those of you who bought your black belt items for 2m against botters, consider yourselves lucky. You got it easy.

You cry for change, you get change. Doesn't mean that change will always be good.

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

Did YOU actually read the post?

This is the only way to get Black Belt items. How you can even suggest people might only kill KB is beyond me.

The king system just got a lot more tedious. You thought fighting against bots was bad; now you have to farm seals for hours and hours a day.

For those of you who bought your black belt items for 2m against botters, consider yourselves lucky. You got it easy.

You cry for change, you get change. Doesn't mean that change will always be good.

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If you don't need the belt, the only KSNM you'll fight is K. Behemoth, Hello Defending Ring!!!

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

If you don't need the belt, the only KSNM you'll fight is K. Behemoth, Hello Defending Ring!!!

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Farming for a solid 8 hours (and this assumes optimal drop rate on Kindred Seals - as we all know, nothing is optimal in this game) for a chance at a D. Ring, given it's known drop rate - not bloody likely.

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

Farming for a solid 8 hours (and this assumes optimal drop rate on Kindred Seals - as we all know, nothing is optimal in this game) for a chance at a D. Ring, given it's known drop rate - not bloody likely.

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Well thats actually skipping the step of getting the HQ pop which wasn't stated to be 100% drop rate.