Is it time to do away with a "permanent" record?

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Originally Posted by Zehira

Couldn't agree more, Mr White Knight. XD

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Come now, if you watched my streams (just the other day in fact) you'd know how salty I am about SE's failiure to address abuse in The Feast in FFXIV.

I quit White Knight as my main job years ago!

Okay, this is off-topic which is good because it sounds like life threatening.

Anyway, you mean there are bots in a PvP arena? Yes, you are right. It is exactly why we don't play the PvP. SE can't fix it for sure.

I think we need a chat thread like Japanese posters have one for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Zehira

Okay, this is off-topic which is good because it sounds like life threatening.

Anyway, you mean there are bots in a PvP arena? Yes, you are right. It is exactly why we don't play the PvP. SE can't fix it for sure.

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No, it's not bots. It's the relatively low population making the queue easy to manipulate- people intentionally throw games if they get someone they don't like on their team, and the various other sorts of things you can do when you know who's playing.

Fair enough, it seems odd that we never did a thing like that. The XIV forums has had that one "tales from the duty finder" thread that's gone on thousands of pages of people ranting about stupid things happening in dungeons and stuff. :p

Indeed, I haven't read the FFXIV forums for years so I just did. That's quite a lot of pages in one thread. People like to [beep] about everything right there.

However, this forums is different. We need to be more confident with the community team. Can't be their fault if the dev team said no if you know what I mean. :)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm sorry you feel that way. I am responding 100% in good faith. You just happen to disagree with my opinion. That's fine, but to imply malice on my part is absolutely wrong and disingenuous.

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Was not about us disagreeing - for the most part we even agree on a lot, which confused me why you kept repeating and causing me to try and explain because maybe you just didn't get why I felt it wasn't right that uninvolved 3rd parties presume -anything-

You are dismissive of experiences other than your own and tell me I brought nothing to the conversation. I'm not the one being disingenuous here.

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for the most part we even agree on a lot, which confused me why you kept repeating and causing me to try and explain

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I mean, if you had the impression that we understood each other, that's usually where a discussion ends. :)

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You are dismissive of experiences other than your own

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Untrue. I told you what my experience was and you kept telling me yours was something else while simultaneously making me feel like my experiences were "wrong." Thus, as I said before, all I can tell you is what my experience is. It's entirely possible for you to do the same kind of thing as me for the same amount of time and have a different experience. What I'm telling you now is that doesn't render the lessons I took from my experiences invalid. I completely believe you when you say you had XYZ experience.

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I mean, if you had the impression that we understood each other, that's usually where a discussion ends.

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Which is why when you continue to re-state your experience after I explain that the part you took out of context I presume we did not reach understanding.

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Untrue. I told you what my experience was and you kept telling me yours was something else while simultaneously making me feel like my experiences were "wrong."

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I literally started with simply saying "it happens" citing examples where people I knew personally have been perma-banned over small potatoes after people said it doesn't happen. You took it a whole different direction because of one comment I gave about uninvolved peopel making judgements on who deserves what - I think we have both spent to much time explaining what we are not saying. Which is a sign we shouldn't be interacting with each other further.

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I literally started with simply saying "it happens" citing examples where people I knew personally have been perma-banned over small potatoes

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The issue is just that different people (and SE, and other companies) have different ideas of what is "small potatoes" and what isn't.

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I think we have both spent to much time explaining what we are not saying. Which is a sign we shouldn't be interacting with each other further.

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Having said that, I will defer to your j udgement. But just because it was difficult for us to communicate here doesn't mean we can't have a civil discussion about anything else, so I hope you're only referring to this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The issue is just that different people (and SE, and other companies) have different ideas of what is "small potatoes" and what isn't.

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Yes, we touched on that before, where I only refereed to it as being a debatable subject.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I hope you're only referring to this conversation.

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Yes, correct.

My biggest gripe with this two strikes and you're out system is there is almost no judgement in it, if you have one strike and do something thta would give you another you're account is destroyed. Even if the first strike was 17 years ago for killing a fish bot.

Even youtube deletes strikes after 6 months if you're good.

It makes zero business sense to have a system made to get rid of long standing paying customers over minutia, do away with permanent records unless the issue was serious.

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Originally Posted by Pixela

My biggest gripe with this two strikes and you're out system is there is almost no judgement in it, if you have one strike and do something thta would give you another you're account is destroyed. Even if the first strike was 17 years ago for killing a fish bot.

Even youtube deletes strikes after 6 months if you're good.

It makes zero business sense to have a system made to get rid of long standing paying customers over minutia, do away with permanent records unless the issue was serious.

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I wouldn't complain if -ahem- most of the permanent bans on both the XI and XIV forums were forgiven. :p

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Originally Posted by Pixela

I don't think you understand how it works.

You can get a ban from saying a bad word in yell, you can get a ban for annoying someone like talking their mob if they are AOE killing (I know people who got a temp ban for pulling a monster from an AOE farmer - "harassment"), you can get a ban from MPK a bot or RMT, you can get a ban for joining their party selling job points and warping them, you can get a ban from being lewd in say when you were 14. You can get a ban from other things than cheating and considering many of us were teenagers when this game came out and were a lot more stupid back then it's unfair to have a one strike and you're out policy that lasts 20+ years.

Especially since they don't have a very good appeal system.

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This. I got a warning for saying "hell" in say in Port jeuno back in 2004. They told me I had my first "warning" for cursing. I was really surprised at that.

I wasnt even using it towards anyone. It was a mistell when my friends were talking about religion. They asked where I'd end up lol. Yup, totally offensive. /s

They do need to do away with this system imo.

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Originally Posted by Cesil

I wasnt even using it towards anyone.

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I didn't even know it was a curse word!

Outright removal of this system would just escalate to someone ruining your day by calling you names via tell or even on public chat. Since there would be no consequences whatsoever to fear anymore. Human beings are not that honest, that we should weaponize them further. Even these cyber bullies are in many cases merely human beings venting their own frustration on some unfortunate victim that just happens to be there. Anyone that has personal experience with such cases can surely relate and understands why this kind of strict system is important to hopefully keep cyber-bullying at bay. Humans will think twice before doing bad things, as there will be strict consequences for their actions.

Leaving all the blatant botting, speed/pos hacking and other third party tool usage aside in this context. We as players need this system in place, even if it might be a little strict and lack proper judgement system, in order to keep the community honest. Removing it would make ffxi completely lawless zone, where people can socially and mentally attack each other, and suffer no consequences for it.

Unless you did something really really bad then it should not be a thing, a warning should be automatically deleted after 6 months.

I've had people say awful things to me, who cares. Just blist them or have fun arguing for 10 minutes.

We have a system in place here where someone could of said or done something 17 years ago when they were 14 and if they do anything at all today their account would be banned, this isn't a warning system. It's totally unfair.

I do agree that the system can be quite unfairly strict and doesn't always seem to judge cases properly, as many players have posted here as evidence.

What's important to understand though, is that not every person is mentally built to handle verbal abuse and bullying. Some people are extremely sensitive to such things and have great difficulties when it comes to handling any kind of conflict. In some extreme cases it may even deal to severe anxiety attacks. And that is certainly not their fault and nobody can blame them for being bothered by such abuse.

This isn't about bullying, it's about the foundation of the system.

You can warn someone and then ban their account on the 2nd action, the points is that the warning should not last for the entire life of the game.

Blacklists exist. No one can "bully" you via chat. It is impossible.

All text based transgressions should be penalty free regardless. As as system already exists to eliminate it.

If a person uses mules to negate the system, they've burned their "warning" by using more than one character and that would be bannable.

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Originally Posted by Leny

Blacklists exist. No one can "bully" you via chat. It is impossible.

All text based transgressions should be penalty free regardless. As as system already exists to eliminate it.

If a person uses mules to negate the system, they've burned their "warning" by using more than one character and that would be bannable.

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The existence of the blacklist is not an excuse to do type or do that break the rules / harass others, just the same as the existence of a curse filter on forums and chats is not an excuse to curse.

The fact that self-help resolutions are available does not make it suddenly okay for others to break the rules. Generally though, if you're being harassed, a GM will tell you to use the blacklist. But if they continue to find other ways to harass you after blacklisting them, then they will usually take action.

Nevertheless, placing such timer on this ban system would simply allow people to wait it out after getting their first warning, and resume their illegal activities after that waiting period. There's nothing to fear if all they would get is gentle slap on wrist, and that is assuming they get caught breaking rules to begin with. This could simply lead to players being increasingly reckless and really testing the limits of what they can or cannot do in the game. And simply take a break from the game if they ever end up getting such warning, only to resume right after this period ends.

Besides, it's not like you cannot continue playing the game after getting banned due to punishment for breaking mutually agreed rules (user agreement and terms of service). One can simply purchase and create new account, and start anew. Hopefully wiser the second time. The various QoL improvements over years have even made this much easier than what it used to be.

We are wasting money I can conclude from all the evidence. They should just do away with NA access since they leave 2 months now of new odyssey content bugs un-fixed it shows you what your $13+ per month will buy you from Square Enix's super ffxi dev team. Then nobody would be complaining about being treated unfair because you would know concretely THEY DON'T CARE what u think instead of observing the ongoing evidence like a logical being and coming up with the same conclusion.
(Now to the topic at hand) Banning for language when they have npc dialogue too that says damn and hell in it already is obsurd too I agree ban's should only exist if you are impeding someone in game from playing it properly by breaking rules, ie. pos hacking, botting profusely, harassment via many ways even ways that havn't been invented yet, and more.

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Originally Posted by Tsukihika

Nevertheless, placing such timer on this ban system would simply allow people to wait it out after getting their first warning, and resume their illegal activities after that waiting period. There's nothing to fear if all they would get is gentle slap on wrist, and that is assuming they get caught breaking rules to begin with. This could simply lead to players being increasingly reckless and really testing the limits of what they can or cannot do in the game. And simply take a break from the game if they ever end up getting such warning, only to resume right after this period ends.
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Now I'm not saying I agree with the notion that anything needs to be changed here, but let's be honest, do you know any unscrupulous mischief makers that could get in trouble for doing something bad, wait out the 1 year or whatever cooldown to get their strikes removed behaving like an angel, and then start causing trouble again right after it wears off on cue?

For most people, you either reform after the first penalty, or you keep offending. you don't reform temporarily until your penalty wears off.

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Originally Posted by Pixela

you can get a ban for joining their party selling job points and warping them

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IMHO, this should be rewarded and not penalized.

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Originally Posted by Pixela

If you get 2 temp bans then that = full perma ban.

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This is just not true. I've been temp banned, 72 hours, for harrassing RMTs three times over the years and one for accusations of MPK'ing by an idiot griefing colonization reives back in the day for fighting chapulis near his 24/7 afk chars inside the reive. I also had a fifth ban for putting "Koga, no thanks" in by bazaar message back in the day on Ifrit.

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I also had a fifth ban for putting "Koga, no thanks" in by bazaar message back in the day on Ifrit.

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This seems odd. What's the context behind this?

But I think the lesson you need to learn is other people engaging in bad behavior is not an excuse to subject them to bad behavior of your own. Two wrongs don't make a right.

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Originally Posted by Mike

This is just not true. I've been temp banned, 72 hours, for harrassing RMTs three times over the years and one for accusations of MPK'ing by an idiot griefing colonization reives back in the day for fighting chapulis near his 24/7 afk chars inside the reive. I also had a fifth ban for putting "Koga, no thanks" in by bazaar message back in the day on Ifrit.

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If this is true it's not the norm, I've known a lot of people that were banned after a second offense and they were not serious due to being in the HNM scene and also the same rules apply to XIV.

Still paranoid about getting banned? I feel bad but to each their own. :)

I remember there is a cooldown for the penalty. I am not sure if it is still the same system (never met any GM in the game before... still zero GM calls).

SE picks favorites, it's like I am being reported in FFXIV and have a GM to look at me: "Hmm.... Yeah I have heard that person before."