Kill the PS2 limitations end of the Dark Ages Era

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juri_Licious

Also with Square-Enix already saying the reason you can't change your hairstyle is due to PS2 limitations.

---

They say that about a lot of things and it usually just translates to: "we're lazy..."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PizzaTheHut

They say that about a lot of things and it usually just translates to: "we're lazy..."

---

Actually it translates more accurately to "Some monkey porgrammed the game in our basement and threw away all the comments and debug code, so we have no idea how to change it without screwing everything up."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rog

No it doesn't. Why do you think the ps2 files are like 8 gb, and pc uses around 13?

---

Because the PC version uses DXT texture compression and the PS2 version uses whatever texture compression method that PS2 games use. The resolution of the textures is the same on both versions but they use different compression methods so file size doesn't tell you anything.

People (and Prishe):

When the bulk of Japanese players don't use PS2s, we can talk about removing PS2 limitations.

Until then, not gonna happen!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Because the PC version uses DXT texture compression and the PS2 version uses whatever texture compression method that PS2 games use. The resolution of the textures is the same on both versions but they use different compression methods so file size doesn't tell you anything.

---

File size might not mean anything if the difference was small, but it is not. The pc version uses around 60% more space. Sorry, but that cannot be accounted for by the different types of compression, unless the ps2 uses much lower quality compression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hordecore

Transfer all their accounts into PC accounts come on people go buy new PCs and stop draggin us down




Imagine FFXI with FFXIV graphics it will become EPIC GAME with PS2 we cant have better graphics

---

Not going to happen, stop making awful threads.
#1 no one wants to fork out hundreds of $ on a new graphics engine, or a new gaming PC.
#2 alienating a customer base just to kiss the butts of a few forum complaints aint going to change a thing.
Stop making threads.

They don't need stop the ps2 support all they got to do is phase it out. slowly.

1st. Start to add content and stuff only a pc/xbox users can get. Have paid downloads that will increase there power. and ps2 players will not be able come to those zones or get those items. but they can still play like normal.

2nd. Dropped dial up connection on both the ps2 and pc users. Give them 6 month warning or just force those wish play on dial - up to another server.

3rd. Allow game on ps3 version of the game, unless there contract from microsoft preventing ffxi from coming on to the Ps3. The legal way of playing on ps3 version, not the hacked way get game to work on ps3.

4th. Since this going be the only mmorpg on xbox live service, Which got over 25 million users , might be good idea have the game on demand. And take advantage of those users. Since ff14 is ps3 exlusive anyway most those ps2 users will be going over there if ff14 gets fixed right.

So they really should look at is worth keeping ps2 players on the game , and create this game to be a true final fantasy game that will never end!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rog

File size might not mean anything if the difference was small, but it is not. The pc version uses around 60% more space. Sorry, but that cannot be accounted for by the different types of compression, unless the ps2 uses much lower quality compression.

---

As an example, DXT texture compression is 4 bits per pixel. VQ texture compression is 2 bits per pixel. VQ texture compression doesn't degrade the image much more than DXT, it's just more efficient.

PS2 games compress textures in memory and then decompress them on the fly for rendering as they are sent to the GPU. They usually use JPEG-like compression rather than fixed ratio compression like DXT (which is a fixed 4-1 ratio) so the textures are more highly compressed because of this (and they need to be with the PS2's limited RAM). The PS2 does NOT have hardware based texture compression, so using DXT or similar methods wouldn't make sense anyway because DXT compression is designed to be decompressed by a GPU in realtime. So instead they compress the textures using JPEG-like compression methods and decompress it only when it's needed by the GPU.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sc4500

They don't need stop the ps2 support all they got to do is phase it out. slowly.

1st. Start to add content and stuff only a pc/xbox users can get. Have paid downloads that will increase there power. and ps2 players will not be able come to those zones or get those items. but they can still play like normal.

---

This makes absolutely no sense at all. There is NO limit to zones or items imposed by the ps2. None. At all.

Well, it was a problem because the updates weren't cleaning up after themselves and it was filing up the partition--ut they've fixed that now. Depending on how much crud they need to cram in their it could become an issue if their is a limit to how much more they can expand the partition (like the old 8GB limitation you used to have in older Windows OS). But, as it is now, there should be enough room for a big chunk of new content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rog

This makes absolutely no sense at all. There is NO limit to zones or items imposed by the ps2. None. At all.

---

There is by the client though, the zone identifier is 8 bits. And it may be that the PS2 doesn't have enough memory to expand the zone lookup table to accommodate increasing this value to 16 bits.

And there has to be a limit to possible items because you can only have so many items existing within range of your character before the PS2 would run out of memory to display them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

There is by the client though, the zone identifier is 8 bits. And it may be that the PS2 doesn't have enough memory to expand the zone lookup table to accommodate increasing this value to 16 bits.

And there has to be a limit to possible items because you can only have so many items existing within range of your character before the PS2 would run out of memory to display them.

---

Actually it can. In fact, it was already done a few updates ago. I'm pretty sure we are never geting 65535 zones.

ok? This is already taken care of by limiting you to 50 characters/npcs/mobs displaying at once. Adding more choices does not change anything.

They won't do anything to ps2 surrport. Why it will send the wrong message to those who might buy FF14 on ps3. That message would be that when the ps3 reaches its limits they will drop surrport. Now this would mean that 14 will get to the point it doesn't suck and it will draw enough people to make a profit. Seeing as I take that PS3 launch for 14 is SEs ace in the hole they wouldn't take that risk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rog

Actually it can. In fact, it was already done a few updates ago. I'm pretty sure we are never geting 65535 zones.

---

You will need to provide proof of this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ravenmore

They won't do anything to ps2 surrport. Why it will send the wrong message to those who might buy FF14 on ps3. That message would be that when the ps3 reaches its limits they will drop surrport.

---

I would hope that they would instead of allowing it to be dragged down by a the boat anchor of an obsolete system like they are doing with FFXI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

You will need to provide proof of this.

---

Ask someone else, i don't play anymore.

They are really using ps2 to hide behind, Droping the ps2 wouldn't mean we get new content cause of it or any upgrades to the game that they say are limited by the ps2. All it would do is show how lazy and cheap they are with 11. Hey the game is going into it's 9th year with updates planned for it so I don't see it as a problem. Now what might get us more content is if FF14 flops hard enough for them to pull a Vista.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rog

Ask someone else, i don't play anymore.

---

In other words you are just making it up. Got it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

You will need to provide proof of this.

---

I just did a quick count and came up with 239 zones--not including the isolated areas like the standalone islands in Cadearva Mire and Batallia Downs, which might load with a different zone ID. There may be more that I missed. Their system may not even be as straight forward as 1 ID per zone either. They may have ID's per zone line for all we know.

Point is, they may indeed have already exceeded the 256 units provided by 8 bits. It's also a big stretch to think they would go to 65536 zones... that is 256 x 256 after all. If we are sitting right around 256 now, that means they would be squaring the current size.

Raist i'm stealing your sig.

Also, While i think we should move away from the PS2, I think another solution would to simply improve the amount of memory PS2 can allocate from the HDD as someone suggested earlier.

IF it can so be done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rog

They will never hit that point. The ps2 makes absolutely no limitations on content, whatsoever. Full auto translate dictionaries, >80 inventory slots, etc, would be very nice, but i'm pretty sure the game will survive without such features.

---

HDD is full, so yes it does

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snaplin

Edit: Should ask SE to drop FF14 support and focus on 11 tbh. :/

---

I like this idea

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

HDD is full, so yes it does

---

The HDD is 40gb, the game takes up, what? 8?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rog

The HDD is 40gb, the game takes up, what? 8?

---

Dont use backspace to deleate information to only see it backspaced the website then you loose your post -.-

anyways I been reading the thread more and I am starting to see my logic in what I posted is wrong.

Bascially I was thinking since they had those "not enough space errors" when doing that update they where running out of room.

if it is just a partition why not make it bigger? is sony stoping them or something? I don't get it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

if it is just a partition why not make it bigger? is sony stoping them or something? I don't get it

---

Not sure.

My guess is either red tape from sony, and/or they are waiting until they actually need to increase the size.

Either way, 40 gb is far more than could ever possibly be used by the ps2, for all games, let alone just ffxi.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rog

Because it is sooooo hard to change the size of a partition.

---

Which they did already, it used to be smaller. lol

It may not be entirely possible to expand the partition size limit if its hard-coded in the system itself. A computer has something called a BIOS chip which contains all the neccessary minimal instructions to start your computer, but ultimately your computer runs off the Hard Drive. The PS2 and most game systems have something similar to a BIOS chip, however it's version contains everything it needs to work and acts independantly without the need of hardware like a Hard Drive. If the data to expand the partition is hard-coded into the chip, there is likely little that can be done to change it's parimiters.

But before anyone says it, the newest generation of consoles have worked around this issue with improved hardware such as flash data storage programmers can update the consoles OS as needed allowing greater flexability to adjust these limits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Which they did already, it used to be smaller. lol

---

yeah i saw that said I ment do it again for the times.

what sword said maybe, i wish SE make more statments on this issue vs player thoeries

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swords

It may not be entirely possible to expand the partition size limit if its hard-coded in the system itself. A computer has something called a BIOS chip which contains all the neccessary minimal instructions to start your computer, but ultimately your computer runs off the Hard Drive. The PS2 and most game systems have something similar to a BIOS chip, however it's version contains everything it needs to work and acts independantly without the need of hardware like a Hard Drive. If the data to expand the partition is hard-coded into the chip, there is likely little that can be done to change it's parimiters.

But before anyone says it, the newest generation of consoles have worked around this issue with improved hardware such as flash data storage programmers can update the consoles OS as needed allowing greater flexability to adjust these limits.

---

wat

0987654321

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rambus

yeah i saw that said I ment do it again for the times.

what sword said maybe, i wish SE make more statments on this issue vs player thoeries

---

That would be nice other wise we will see these threads constantly come up till ps2 is dropped. People just want content ad hate hearing how ps2 is limiting this game is some way as square enix them self have said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sasukeuchiha

That would be nice other wise we will see these threads constantly come up till ps2 is dropped. People just want content ad hate hearing how ps2 is limiting this game is some way as square enix them self have said.

---

If only those people had even the slightest clue what limitations are imposed by the ps2.

Think I remember reading somewhere back with all the homebrew stuff that the PS2 uses a 28 bit LBA system in the firmware (in other words, can only read up to 128GB of a hard drive partition at a time). In order to get it to work with larger drives there had to be a sort of BIOS extension to allow it to read 48bit partitions on larger drives to run more advanced homebrew stuff. So, it is pretty advanced, even though it is outdated.

I think the bigger problem stems from how it puts games on the drive. It doesn't copy flat files to the drive--it puts an image of the game's disc on it. Sort of like an ISO image you make when ripping a disc to burn to CD/DVD. I don't know the exact size of the partition, so I may be wrong on this thinking--but that image size may have a hardcoded size limit of around 8.5 to 9GB--the standard size of a DVD9. This would make sense as it is more or less making an ISO style image of your game that it mounts and runs as if it was loading a DVD-9 game. There could be some trickery with an encoding method that allows for compression to squeeze more data in that image, but the physical limitation on the disk would still be the 8.5-9GB as it is determined by the number of sectors used.

If this is indeed how it is setup to run, then that cannot be changed without a firmware update to the PS2 itself, which would be something Sony would indeed need to fix first--so that would also mean there is a hard limit on how much they can store in the FFXI partition (ie, image). The only way to get around it without Sony changing the firware would be to somehow set up a Disc 2 image. To access that content, you would probably have to use a menu option to create a save file, exit the game, and boot the FFXI-2 game and load that save file--like when you switched discs in a multi-disc game.

The ps2's bios is read only, and so can't be updated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rog

The ps2's bios is read only, and so can't be updated.

---

Yeah, knowing Sony they went the cheap route and didn't use flashable chips. A very boneheaded move on their part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RAIST

If this is indeed how it is setup to run, then that cannot be changed without a firmware update to the PS2 itself, which would be something Sony would indeed need to fix first...

---

Raist is spot on with this point. Yes, the PS2 HDD has a capacity of 40GBs, however the firmware designed by Sony only allows a set amount of space a game can utilize on the disk. This being proprietary of Sony is not something SE can adjust, thus PS2 users are forever stuck with the preset limits on the system. And, since Sony has officially dropped all support for the PS2HDD they actively refuse to even address the issue leaving us all with the tag line of "PS2 Limitations".

This is the main reason new content is so incredibly hard to work into the game. Despite the size of the HDD the partition FFXI uses can and will never be increased. The only solution to allow increased content is for SE to follow Sony's lead and drop all support for the PS2HDD.

Well, it looks like it's finally out there.

Thanks to Raist and others all the evidence of the PS2 Limitations is finally had.
I suggest remembering these posts so we don't have to have duplicate threads on this subject again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RAIST

Yeah, knowing Sony they went the cheap route and didn't use flashable chips. A very boneheaded move on their part.

---

I don't think any console until this generation of consoles utilized flash memory, well maybe the original Xbox but I never owned one to really find out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RAIST

Yeah, knowing Sony they went the cheap route and didn't use flashable chips. A very boneheaded move on their part.

---

Or maybe they chose to use a read only bios because they did not intend to update firmware, and being able to write to it brings issues, such as corruption, hackers being able to modify it, etc.

I'm not very savvy at this sort of stuff so this might be a stupid question, but is it possible for a program to be made that would allow a PS2 to recognize an external Hard drive once the program is on the HD?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pofo

I'm not very savvy at this sort of stuff so this might be a stupid question, but is it possible for a program to be made that would allow a PS2 to recognize an external Hard drive once the program is on the HD?

---

Yes, i play games off an external hdd on my ps2 all the time.

That being said, then why can't SE just host a download on playonline that you place into an external HD allowing PS2 consoles to recognize it; to expand their space availability.. Or is it easier said then done?