Avatar's Favor still lackluster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dulek

Love how this continued to be rolled out with no replies to the additional feedback about this. Great job of working with your community, SE.

---

Not that they're really known for going back and fourth for feedback, but the feedback given specifically about the favor has been in general "this will be better then it is now." Might even make it an important aspect of Smn depending on just how much MP you need to use to cap the potency, and just how high the potency goes.

I'm just hoping since Avatar's Favor stays on you as a buff without an avatar active the new favor cap will cumulatively carry over swapping out avatars. If not, it won't address the real issue which is consistent resummoning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rwolf

I'm just hoping since Avatar's Favor stays on you as a buff without an avatar active the new favor cap will cumulatively carry over swapping out avatars. If not, it won't address the real issue which is consistent resummoning.

---

Resummoning was a minor issue. The major issue was the fact that Favor lost potency when performing a blood pact. This meant that you had to have your avatar out and do nothing in order to effectively provide a potent favor buff. The fact that favor is reset upon resummoning the same avatar is necessary to prevent it from being overpowered. Besides, with the "Favor's potency is increased on blood pact usage" change, it makes the reset upon resummoning even more necessary because you'll hit the potency cap much faster. The increased potency upon BP change will also help foster better smn gameplay; they'll have to BP after resummoning if they want to maintain a high Favor potency. Hopefully this will make more smns think about BPing at the right time, instead of spamming a BP whenever it's up, e.g. if your avatar is tanking, don't BP when it has 10% hp left, it'll just get hate and die; resummon the avatar when you get the chance, then BP while your avatar is at 100% so it can hold hate longer before dying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rakshaka

Resummoning was a minor issue. The major issue was the fact that Favor lost potency when performing a blood pact. This meant that you had to have your avatar out and do nothing in order to effectively provide a potent favor buff. The fact that favor is reset upon resummoning the same avatar is necessary to prevent it from being overpowered. Besides, with the "Favor's potency is increased on blood pact usage" change, it makes the reset upon resummoning even more necessary because you'll hit the potency cap much faster. The increased potency upon BP change will also help foster better smn gameplay; they'll have to BP after resummoning if they want to maintain a high Favor potency. Hopefully this will make more smns think about BPing at the right time, instead of spamming a BP whenever it's up, e.g. if your avatar is tanking, don't BP when it has 10% hp left, it'll just get hate and die; resummon the avatar when you get the chance, then BP while your avatar is at 100% so it can hold hate longer before dying.

---

To be honest, I don't feel that there will be any loss of favor effectiveness now. So there's no need to 'maintain' it, as much so for you to nurture it. So, from my understanding of what is read, the Favor will increase like it always does, but while now Jump/Spike with BP usage. I will agree that there will need some bit of strategy if they make it so that BPs will increase the cap, but I don't think that's exactly how it'll work. It's a supportive JA anyway, so this leads to greater avenues of things I.E. Maybe more summons for us to get to branch out more abilities. (though not likely, but a hopeful dream :3)

Quote:

---

The effects of Avator's Favor have been increased.

---

Results of favor testing:

Carbuncle: Same
Garuda: Same
Titan: Same
Diabolos: Same

None of the others are testable super quick and easily for me.

So... what does this mean exactly from the patch notes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crevox

Results of favor testing:

Carbuncle: Same
Garuda: Same
Titan: Same
Diabolos: Same

None of the others are testable super quick and easily for me.

So... what does this mean exactly from the patch notes?

---

As i thought, and tested, there's one higher tier for Favor, but it seems broken or based on convoker's and not simply a high enough skill level.

I'm showing 87 defence from titan with 560 skill on AND convoker's horn +2. Both wikis have cap for 447 skil & convoker's+2 at 82 def.

BGwiki has >512 skill with Caller's Horn +2 being 87 DEF: http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Avatar%27s_Favor

The info was added on October 14th. Technically it was implied before, but Spicyryan spelled out the information that was already on the page with another column that added 2*tier potency to the 512 value so people wouldn't have to do math.

Either way, that testing doesn't indicate that anything has changed.

It was always 87 defense. If you want hard numbers, you can see Papesse's testing here from before the patch:

Quote:

---

512 skill and Caller's Horn +2 :
Carbuncle : 24 HP/tick
Ifrit : 21~24 DA
Titan : 87 DEF
Garuda : 31 EVA
Shiva : 13 MAB
Ramuh : 21% Critical Hit Rate
Diabolos : 6 MP/tick
Caith Sith : 15 MDB

---

There is no new tier, and there are no new effects. All they changed was BPs lowering tiers into raising tiers.

Summoner
The following Blood Pacts: Rage will have skillchain elements added.
Ecliptic Bite / Flaming Crush / Mountain Buster / Spinning Dive / Predator Claws / Rush / Chaotic Strike
The job ability Avatar’s Favor will undergo the following adjustments.
The effects of Avatar’s Favor will be increased.
The effects of Avatar’s favor will increased based on the amount of MP consumed when using a Blood Pact: Rage or Blood Pact: Ward.

Have the Effects been increased? I dont think so.

Quote:

---

To coincide with the increased effect of Avatar’s Favor, we’ve eliminated the effect penalty when using Blood Pacts, and made it so that each time you use a Blood Pact the effect of Avatar’s Favor grows.

---

I think Crevox's testing and analysis hits the nail on the head, along with the wording from the Freshly Picked...the favour grows (i.e. goes up through the tiers) but there's not a cap increase. I could be wrong (often am! :-) ) but that's also backed up by my Diabolos testing which is, admittedly, a bit ad hoc.

Art.

We have in fact increased the upper limit on the effects of Avatar’s Favor, but in order to reach this new tier you will have to surpass 512575 summoning skill. We understand that at the moment it is difficult to procure the equipment to achieve 513+575+ summoning skill, but we will be making adjustments moving forward so you can aim for higher summoning skill numbers.

Also, to clarify what has already been stated, using Blood Pacts will push the effect of Avatar’s Favor through the tiers more quickly to reach the maximum effect that coincides with your summoning skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

We have in fact increased the upper limit on the effects of Avatar’s Favor, but in order to reach this new tier you will have to surpass 512 summoning skill.

---

No you didn't.

I will use titan's favor as an example:

SMN Skill 544:
Base DEF: 423
With maxed out Favor: 510
Favor Gives +87 DEF

SMN Skill 512:
Base DEF: 330
With maxed Favor: 417
Favor Gives +87 DEF

SMN Skill 550 (without Caller's Horn +2)
Base DEF: 494
With maxed Favor: 571
Favor Gives +77 DEF

You did NOT increase the cap for Avatar's Favor. Unless you mean the cap without Caller's Horn +2. If so then that cap is LOWER than the cap WITH Caller's Horn +2.

Again. You did NOT raise the cap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

We understand that at the moment it is difficult to procure the equipment to achieve 513+ summoning skill

---

No it's not, it's quite easy to break 512. It would be nice to have it be easy and keep all our good gear on though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

We have in fact increased the upper limit on the effects of Avatar’s Favor, but in order to reach this new tier you will have to surpass 512 summoning skill. We understand that at the moment it is difficult to procure the equipment to achieve 513+ summoning skill, but we will be making adjustments moving forward so you can aim for higher summoning skill numbers.

Also, to clarify what has already been stated, using Blood Pacts will push the effect of Avatar’s Favor through the tiers more quickly to reach the maximum effect that coincides with your summoning skill.

---

You are mistaken. The bonus at 512+ summoning skill is the same as it has always been.
I have 564 summoning skill which is only 10 less then the absolute maximum you can get right now (I'm missing Conveyance Cape augment.)
The max bonus with 512 is the same as with 564 ... and the same that it has always been.
The max bonus with 512+horn is the same as with 558+horn ... and the same that it has always been.
Maybe you meant they added the 577 tier? That is impossible to reach currently and even if more armor is added it would require you to dedicate EVERY SLOT to Summoning magic skill armor to reach that tier.

Camate, I can't shake the feeling that we're being lied to.
Please come with verifiable numbers because the players below your post have come with numbers which are disproving everything you have just said.
Apart from that, I must say I am very disappointed.
The patchnotes gave me (and I am sure other summoners) the impression that we'd get a direct potency boost on Avatar's favor itself instead of another tier.

Even in it's updated state Avatar's favor simply doesn't make Summoner a viable alternative for filling a support role.
Please consider the following changes:
- Remove the potency scaling over time, Avatar's favor needs to be at maximum potency from the get go to be of any use.
If I am playing a support summoner I switch between avatars a lot for other Avatar buffs, having to rebuild potency every time I summon just doesn't work, we can't be relied on for Avatar's favor alone.
Keep the potency based on skill though, that is fine.

Please also consider changes to the following Favors:
- Ifrit's Favor: Double attack -> Attack
- Ramuh's Favor: Critical Hitrate -> Accuracy

And please increase the favor potencies to close the gap between the other support roles.
This gap is still far too large to even be considered as a viable replacement for other support classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shirai

Please also consider changes to the following Favors:
- Ifrit's Favor: Double attack -> Attack
- Ramuh's Favor: Critical Hitrate -> Accuracy

---

No. Don't even joke about changing these. They're two of the best favors we have.

You are right, scratching that.
Although an Accuracy buff wouldn't be misplaced as a ward buff perhaps (With a boost to Ifrit's Crimson Howl)

(Although Personally I was also considering Favors that could compete with Geomancer's Fury and Precision as we also have Favors for our fellow mages that increase MAB and MACC.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rakshaka

No. Don't even joke about changing these. They're two of the best favors we have.

---

While I agree with the Ifrit, now that the upper limit can be reached and maintained, but is the Crit % Rate really one of the best? I feel that a shift to Crit DMG or even ACC to would be far more useful. Of course, if Fenrir didn't have the Lunar Cycle crap attached to his BPs, then it wouldn't matter too much I guess.

was wondering if it'd be so hard to give elemental spirits favor too?
give them elemental resistance or something. its not exactly very useful but would be another situational tool to add to our mixed bag. pocket RUNs lol

Is there any way that Avatar's Favour can be altered so that we aren't penalised when swapping out skill+ gear when using blood pacts? As it stands I still have to choose between using blood pacts in 512 skill gear, usually requiring me to make sacrifices in BP delay and potency, or using blood pacts in the appropriate gear and suffering a favour tier penalty as my skill drops. This effectively means that either Avatar's Favour weakens my blood pacts or my blood pacts weaken Avatar's Favour, which was the original problem...

Hello, everyone.

Thanks for all the testing and data. I’ve been talking to the development team in an effort to solve this topic in question. The team did some further testing and found that Avatar’s Favor is working as intended, but it seems like the values being shown through the client are not being reflected. Since displaying these value variations up-to-the-second would place a large amount of stress on the servers and it would also take a lot of resources to change how the client functions, we do not have any plans at the moment to make adjustments to this.

Please rest assured that the effects are being granted to your characters properly and also keep in mind that the /checkparam command should show you the stats more quickly than the equipment screen.

So you're saying the values reported are lower then what they actually are? Cause that sounds pretty awkward, can't remember a situation anytime in the history of the game where the stats we see from effects are incorrect. I mean, for example, Titan gives +87 defense on our screen, how are we to know if he's actually giving +100?

To be frank, this sounds like the whole Automaton being able to Protect itself situation all over again. If we're unable to see the correct values, then could you possibly get information from the dev team concerning what the current max buff values are? I mean hard values too. Not "it's been increased" as we're assured it has, without anyway to visibly see such.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

Hello, everyone.

Thanks for all the testing and data. I’ve been talking to the development team in an effort to solve this topic in question. The team did some further testing and found that Avatar’s Favor is working as intended, but it seems like the values being shown through the client are not being reflected. Since displaying these value variations up-to-the-second would place a large amount of stress on the servers and it would also take a lot of resources to change how the client functions, we do not have any plans at the moment to make adjustments to this.

Please rest assured that the effects are being granted to your characters properly and also keep in mind that the /checkparam command should show you the stats more quickly than the equipment screen.

---

No, you are still mistaken. I've tested and tested and tested again. Nothing at all has changed.

Titan's Favor with 433 Summoning Skill (No horn) = Max bonus of DEF+67
Titan's Favor with 503 Summoning Skill (No horn) = Max bonus of DEF+72
Titan's Favor with 518 Summoning Skill (No horn) = Max bonus of DEF+77
Titan's Favor with 564 Summoning Skill (No horn) = Max bonus of DEF+77

Those are the same tiers and the same max values as before the update and I checked with /checkparam and with the equipment menu. The frequency of the value updates is of no relevance at all, I waited for 20min and the max bonus was still capped at the same values. Unless you mean that the max bonus does go higher then DEF+77 but it will NEVER display that value?

We're using checkparam, we're using the equip window, everything. Heck, even the Regen effect from Carbuncle is not changing. If he's healing us for the same in both situations, then there is no bonus.

There's no way that could be misinterpreted or stats could not be showing up in a case like that.

Camate, please.
This is getting embarrassing, we are using measurable values and are comparing them with values that have been known for a very long time, we know how to measure them!.
Please take it from the playerbase that if we say that nothing has changed, just maybe nothing has changed.

While I am not a big fan of playing the whole Paying customer part, if you keep telling us off like that while we have numbers to proof that you're wrong I will start filing formal complaints against you and the development team.
And yes, I know where to place them. Not here.

Sincerely,

Someone that is losing his patience and understanding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crevox

We're using checkparam, we're using the equip window, everything. Heck, even the Regen effect from Carbuncle is not changing. If he's healing us for the same in both situations, then there is no bonus.

There's no way that could be misinterpreted or stats could not be showing up in a case like that.

---

Good call, I'm not sure why I didn't think of just testing with Carbuncle's Favor:

Carbuncle's Favor with 433 Summoning Skill (No horn) = Max bonus of Regen+16
Carbuncle's Favor with 503 Summoning Skill (No horn) = Max bonus of Regen+18
Carbuncle's Favor with 518 Summoning Skill (No horn) = Max bonus of Regen+20
Carbuncle's Favor with 564 Summoning Skill (No horn) = Max bonus of Regen+20
Carbuncle's Favor with 558 Summoning Skill (With horn) = Max bonus of Regen+24

Those are the same tiers and the same max values as before the update...

@Shirai... A formal complaint, really? Come on, it's a video game, don't be silly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Acacia

@Shirai... A formal complaint, really? Come on, it's a video game, don't be silly.

---

I'm not.
As I said, I am not a fan of the whole "Mah munneh" part, but I don't like to be lied to either.
And at this point I really feel like we're being lied to.

Either they provide evidence, or they admit that nothing happened, I won't accept this answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shirai

I'm not.
As I said, I am not a fan of the whole "Mah munneh" part, but I don't like to be lied to either.
And at this point I really feel like we're being lied to.

---

I highly doubt it's intentional. It's entirely possible it's a bug that's just not showing up on the developers' machines so they think it's working fine. I'm a software engineer myself and I'm always surprised how many times I find a bug in a release build that doesn't show up in a debug build. Providing evidence and facts in order to help them to solve the problem is helpful, threatening is not, especially this early in the discussion. You have to remember that Camate isn't a developer, he's just providing a channel of communication between us and the developers. I'm sure it takes time for him to communicate (including translation) with them, for them to test and then to get a response back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Acacia

I highly doubt it's intentional. It's entirely possible it's a bug that's just not showing up on the developers' machines so they think it's working fine. I'm a software engineer myself and I'm always surprised how many times I find a bug in a release build that doesn't show up in a debug build. Providing evidence and facts in order to help them to solve the problem is helpful, threatening is not, especially this early in the discussion. You have to remember that Camate isn't a developer, he's just providing a channel of communication between us and the developers. I'm sure it takes time for him to communicate (including translation) with them, for them to test and then to get a response back.

---

Agreed; this situation requires patience and understanding. Camate, if possible, it would help us greatly if we had specific information on the new tiers, including the required smn skill level, and even just a couple of the new values that we can expect from this higher tier. That way we can compare what the devs expect vs what we're actually seeing in game. After that, the devs could figure out why the numbers are different. Titan's favor would be the best one to test, as the difference in tiers is obvious to detect as I'm sure everyone's surmised.

what we need is for the devs to get off the test servers and start testing things in real live play on real servers, without all the testing tools that allow them to adjust things and test various things out. get on REAL characters on REAL content with REAL players and see what the REAL end results of their work are. Because as players that's all we really care about, the end results, not the theories of where the devs would like for things to go, but where the players actually take them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

Hello, everyone.

Thanks for all the testing and data. I’ve been talking to the development team in an effort to solve this topic in question. The team did some further testing and found that Avatar’s Favor is working as intended, but it seems like the values being shown through the client are not being reflected. Since displaying these value variations up-to-the-second would place a large amount of stress on the servers and it would also take a lot of resources to change how the client functions, we do not have any plans at the moment to make adjustments to this.

Please rest assured that the effects are being granted to your characters properly and also keep in mind that the /checkparam command should show you the stats more quickly than the equipment screen.

---

The numbers I posted are from /checkparam

Again. You did NOT buff Avatar's Favor.

Still not using Avatar's Favor because it's rubbish. You need well over 500 summoning skill and to be regularly using the same avatar for it to be of any use. The moment your avatar is dismissed or dies you lose that potency. You also weaken the bonus that Avatar's Favor gives to you when you switch into your Bloodpact Damage bonus gear, which lowers your summoning skill. How is this supposed to be helpful to us? It isn't! You've given us nothing SE, you're as transparent as a sheet of glass for throwing us bitter carrots.

Poor Camate having to deal with all the sad sad tears of the bitter pet community. I hope there's an in-house therapist for this guy having to read the same whiny threads since day one of this forum.

Que whiny replies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malphius

Poor Camate having to deal with all the sad sad tears of the bitter pet community. I hope there's an in-house therapist for this guy having to read the same whiny threads since day one of this forum.

Que whiny replies.

---

On the contrary, I think everyone sympathises with the community reps. They have a difficult job trying to mesh two sides with very different sets of expectations.

Whining happens for a reason. It doesn't just come out of thin air - there's a trigger that causes it. SE implemented this forum precisely because they wanted the insight that comes from communicating with the playerbase. I find it a little baffling when people complain about the complaining, because feedback is why we're all here - us and SE.

Back on topic, I'm beginning to think that Avatar's Favour just needs a complete rework. It's amazing that they've buffed the ability so much and it's still massively under-par. That does sort of imply that the base principles of the ability need looking at, Even if the buff potency had increased, as SE has been claiming, it still would be uninspiring and laden with broken mechanics.

Hello, everyone.

First off, I’d like you all to understand that solving this issue is just as important to us and we’re doing everything we can to find out answers. I appreciate the data you've been providing as well as your patience.

With that said, there was an error in my previous post regarding the summoning skill. The necessary skill value required to reach a higher effect tier through skill alone is 575+. Apologies for the miscommunication.

We are still in the process of talking to the development team about this and they are currently working with QA to perform further testing. Once I hear more information I will definitely make a follow-up, so please sit tight in the meantime.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jerbob

Back on topic, I'm beginning to think that Avatar's Favour just needs a complete rework. It's amazing that they've buffed the ability so much and it's still massively under-par. That does sort of imply that the base principles of the ability need looking at, Even if the buff potency had increased, as SE has been claiming, it still would be uninspiring and laden with broken mechanics.

---

Agreed, It's a nice through, but the overall function just isn't conducive to the SMN class. If we had a way to sustain the Avatar's HP like BST's Reward, then keeping them alive wouldn't be that big of a deal, but that still doesn't fix the problem of shifting from one avatar to another. I feel that it should fall in to the realm of GEO and BRD, where the effect is based solely upon your current skill. SMN Magic=X then you get this boost, no build up at all. As it, we need to switch avatars at a frequent pace to fully utilize our job. Titan, Garuda, Fenrir, Diabolos, hell even Carbuncle all have things that can help a party. I've been told by people that they're surprised on how much ground a SMN can cover. We've been saying the same things for a while now, but it seems that they aren't being even thought of. But that's the thing with MMOs they're always a WIP.

Quote:

---

The necessary skill value required to reach a higher effect tier through skill alone is 575+

---

There ya have it guys. You're just not good enough at SMN.

I'm not sure why the developers think it's worth announcing that a new tier has been specifically added to Avatar's Favour as part of the ability's reworking. I mean, it's an ability that naturally scales with skill. I think it's kind of... assumed that scaling shouldn't just arbitrarily stop?

When the merit point caps were increased, SE didn't feel the need to specifically note that increased VIT merits would boost Chakra healing. That sort of goes without saying. Why is SMN consistently different in this regard? Why do we have to beg to be given appropriate scaling? Why is it that when things like this are sorted, it's part of our once-in-a-blue-moon job adjustment? I mean, Ward potency has been plagued with this issue for ages. It's like that time when they made the first step to fixing our blood pact timers being wasted when mobs were out of range. That was apparently an addition to our job!

Making abilities scale properly isn't a buff or enhancement, it's a bugfix.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

Hello, everyone.

First off, I’d like you all to understand that solving this issue is just as important to us and we’re doing everything we can to find out answers. I appreciate the data you've been providing as well as your patience.

With that said, there was an error in my previous post regarding the summoning skill. The necessary skill value required to reach a higher effect tier through skill alone is 575+. Apologies for the miscommunication.

We are still in the process of talking to the development team about this and they are currently working with QA to perform further testing. Once I hear more information I will definitely make a follow-up, so please sit tight in the meantime.

---

Thanks for digging into the issue for us Camate. It's good to know what the real story is but it's still disappointing. Currently it's impossible to reach this new tier (the highest Summoning magic skill you can get is 574) and just to get close we have to use every single armor slot, including your weapon. Adding new armor with slightly higher skill wont really solve that problem either. Honestly I think a good solution would be to just have a fixed value (no warm-up) for Avatar's Favor bonuses that are based on your avatar's level. This way you don't have to go crazy with the armor and it will scale nicely with the iLvl ammo and Nirvana.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malphius

There ya have it guys. You're just not good enough at SMN.

---

575 is impossible to get, by 1 point.
+12 kirin's pole
+3 vox grip
+15 convoker's horn +1
+9 caller's pendant
+5 andoa earring
+3 summoning earring
+12 anhur robe
+19 glyphic bracers +1
+10 evoker's ring
+5 globidonta ring
+18 Conveyance cape (+8 and perfect +10 aug)
+5 cimmerian sash
+14 adapa's slacks +1
+11 marduk's crackows +1

Puts us at exactly 574, with capped skill and 8/8 merits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frodnon

575 is impossible to get, by 1 point.
+12 kirin's pole
+3 vox grip
+15 convoker's horn +1
+9 caller's pendant
+5 andoa earring
+3 summoning earring
+12 anhur robe
+19 glyphic bracers +1
+10 evoker's ring
+5 globidonta ring
+18 Conveyance cape (+8 and perfect +10 aug)
+5 cimmerian sash
+14 adapa's slacks +1
+11 marduk's crackows +1

Puts us at exactly 574, with capped skill and 8/8 merits.

---

You'd think that the devs would have known this >_>; Still I'll never reach that. And I'm getting to the point I no longer care. They make it so unGodly hard for the pet jobs to actually be productive. My faith in that the new Blood Pacts is growing dim.