whats going to happen to PLD

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Originally Posted by rog

No one said pld can't be impressive. The argument here is that other jobs are better.

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Exactly this. I don't care if you enjoy PLD and your pt lets you bring it, by all means, have fun, it is a game after all. But don't kid yourself by trying to say that it's worth a damn in utility and usefulness when compared to other jobs.

I mean, I highly enjoy RDM, SCH and SMN, and love going on those jobs when I'm able (especially SCH, sooooooooooo much fun), but I know full well of the drawbacks, and I never try to convince anyone otherwise.

pld will be removed from the game.

All the complaining about Paladins reminds me of the WoW forums people nonstop complain how Blizzard is nerfing Paladins ect.

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Originally Posted by rog

No one said pld can't be impressive. The argument here is that other jobs are better.

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If you are operating on a best case, on paper scenario, then sure. PLD does seem to be able to cover several roles without the person changing jobs 5 times though, which is not really something you can evaluate with parsers or maths as to which is more useful. If you can instantly swap out all your gear, atmas, buffs, and warp to and from jeuno in the space of a millisecond then other jobs end up `better`, i`ll grant that. As far as overall utility goes though, depending on your group and situation of course, it seems PLD can be more useful than some of the jobs seen as optimal. At least from what I`ve seen, and the people in my shell know their stuff better than most.

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Exactly this. I don't care if you enjoy PLD and your pt lets you bring it, by all means, have fun, it is a game after all. But don't kid yourself by trying to say that it's worth a damn in utility and usefulness when compared to other jobs.

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It`s not a case of anyone letting people bring PLD. It`s a case of it being the best choice in the situation.

Having said that, PLD`s role as a general purpose `tank` is completely shot at the moment. But then again, so is the overall concept of a `tank`. But we all knew that anyway.

Unless we get significantly difficult challenges where current DD-tank strategies wont work, PLD will always be the second-runner if not worse for battles. The reason why people used PLD often in the past was the fear that using a DD as a tank could wind in failure, leading to loss of a claim on an NM/HNM. Also, MP wasn't as abundant as it is now.

The job will need significant DD improvements (Chant was a start) in order to hold hate along with more tools for keeping the attention of a monster. Overall the game will need harder monsters to even justify some of the jobs currently in decline today - PLD included.

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Originally Posted by Volga

Seems like lately PLD has become, well useless in [A] zones can we get some love here SE?

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Complainer PLDs complaining. This was one of the things that nearly ruined the game earlier. PLD has already gotten everything they ever wanted and more. If you're PLDs are being over looked, maybe you need to re-evaluate your gear and play style. It's still the top tank for most everything.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

It's still the top tank for most everything.

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No it's not. >_>

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

No it's not. >_>

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Play PLD better then. lol

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Play PLD better then. lol

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Play better, then. Wasting a spot on a PLD is wasting a spot. If a Mnk, Nin, War, Thf, Pup, or Drg is dying to some NM or is unable to keep hate, look at the DD. Then look at the Whm. One of them is either gimp or a retard, probably both. All of those jobs do more damage than a PLD as well, and some offer significantly better proc'ing ability. I've already gone over why PLD Red procs are absolutely useless in another thread, but I don't mind repeating it if I have to.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Play better, then. Wasting a spot on a PLD is wasting a spot. If a Mnk, Nin, War, Thf, Pup, or Drg is dying to some NM or is unable to keep hate, look at the DD. Then look at the Whm. One of them is either gimp or a retard, probably both. All of those jobs do more damage than a PLD as well, and some offer significantly better proc'ing ability. I've already gone over why PLD Red procs are absolutely useless in another thread, but I don't mind repeating it if I have to.

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That all sounds more like personal bias then a game problem. I for one, especialy as a WHM, like having PLDs around.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

That all sounds more like personal bias then a game problem. I for one, especialy as a WHM, like having PLDs around.

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Why's that? They take more damage than Mnk and Nin, and they don't have the procs to be useful on their own merit. If a Mnk or a Nin is more annoying to cure for than a Pld, get better Mnks and Nins. Or get better at WHM. The problem could be either one, really. It's not even remotely difficult for a Whm to keep anything alive these days.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Complainer PLDs complaining. This was one of the things that nearly ruined the game earlier. PLD has already gotten everything they ever wanted and more. If you're PLDs are being over looked, maybe you need to re-evaluate your gear and play style. It's still the top tank for most everything.

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Troll better.

Explain how PLD is best at anything in todays current FFXI while you're at it too. You sound like those RNGs swearing up and down the class is still top tier.

Well, explain how 20 jobs are best yourself. Clearly there is not room for everyone to be best, so not being best is not an argument.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Well, explain how 20 jobs are best yourself. Clearly there is not room for everyone to be best, so not being best is not an argument.

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It's a fine argument when the post he's quoting specifically tries to state that PLD is "the top tank for most everything" =/

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

Except back then they were efficient. Throwing a MNK on Tiamat at Lv75 just wasn't viable, and the few times I seen Linkshells throw a MNK or a DRK on NMs like Tiamat, Cerberus or Khimaira; a wipe or a flail ensued. The problem is the content in the game got easier; the strength of characters versus the difficulty of content didn't scale. One accelerated, the other almost seemingly reversed.

Maybe I'll level sync to a 75 mule and go throw two monks on Khimaira and see what happens. Guarantee it wont be "efficient"

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Khim,Cerb and Tia were all easily DD tanked at 75. The only mob I never saw effectively DD tanked with DI, I'm sure it could have been but we used a PLD to flee and hold him. I had a infamous Galka PLD on my server Emo quit on Khim because he couldn't get hate off my DRK. PLD was useful when the gaming community didn't understand the game mechanics and for shells that didn't have good support players in the tank pty.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

All the complaining about Paladins reminds me of the WoW forums people nonstop complain how Blizzard is nerfing Paladins ect.

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i know right? this is a sure and sad sign that FFXI has turned into a WoW clone.....sad but true...:(

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All the complaining about Paladins reminds me of the WoW forums people nonstop complain how Blizzard is nerfing Paladins ect.

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Well to be fair, they didn't nerf PLD they just made them totally and utterly useless atm. I think some whining is in order if you are a pld main.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Well, explain how 20 jobs are best yourself. Clearly there is not room for everyone to be best, so not being best is not an argument.

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The job is designed as the premier 'tank' class yet can't even fulfill that role correctly. It's not even passable without the most elite gear in the game. With an Almace/Ochain, we can talk about PLD cause you know... they can actually do some damage and hold hate with those tools. Do tell how that isn't wholly broken.

Your heals are as inferior as RDM/SCH, flash is useless when DD clearly do more damage than the hate you grab with that, defensive JAs mean nothing when you have no hate and ultimately you're just as likely to be oneshotted as a DD tank.

Tsukino clearly called PLD "top-tank" which is trolling at best, blind ignorance at worst. The job is in the same boat as RNG - obsolete.

At least DRK/SAM/PUP etc can still do their functions, PLD and RNG sure can't.

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Do tell how that isn't wholly broken.

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You have to accept your limits. PLD is a job that tanks through being at hate cap while others hold back and avoid reaching it. WHM is a job curing while it has MP. A PLD that can tank through hate cap of DD, is as dumb as a WHM that can cure without MP. Restrictions are there to make you think about how you play and add "difficulty".

PLD is fine. What is less fine is how well a WAR deals damage while surviving attacks with a WHM healer. WAR should be able to tank of course, being the second best armored job in the game, but it shouldn't be able to do as much damage while doing so. This is the balance issue. Not if PLD can hold hate, but how much damage melee can do and receive at once.

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to say that WAR is wholly broken. I'd even say WHM is wholly broken, even though most people are incapable of understanding how anything can be unbalanced if they don't do massive damage. But PLD? It is right where it should be. Just a shame it is there while other jobs are under or overpowered, making it LOOK bad.

If there's anything at all that's broken in that scenario it's the values of Monster Damage, Monster Attack and Player Defense. Paladin may have the highest defense armor around, but it won't mean jack squat if Defense as a stat is absolutely worthless. Any good MNK is going to be running around with 30-40 Defense, and will still take less damage than a Paladin with 600~ Defense.

It's obvious that Berserk and Defender were originally intended for Warrior to switch between Offensive and Defensive roles, however the implementation was shot when the values the original Dev team decided to assign for Player and Monster Attack/Def and their effects on one another made Defense practically worthless unless it's stacked in wholly unreasonable quantities.

Jobs aren't more broken now than before, they're right where they've been for a long time. Players have gotten better, and have, for the most part, dispelled the illusion that PLD+Def+Shield = Good tank. The only reason, and I mean only reason, that people were unable to properly implement DD tanks in 2006 was the fact that players geared their jobs differently. Players with Paladin defaulted to defensive gear. Players with DDs defaulted to Offensive gear. Players with Mages defaulted to Magic-Boosting gear. What few people realized back then was that every job type can be geared every way. DDs can wear Defensive gear and take very little damage. Paladins can wear Offensive gear and deal damage. Mages can wear both, and are easily the sturdiest jobs in the game (Contrary to the popular stereotype of frail mages).

FFXI's gear swapping system allows all of these jobs to instantly change their gear set depending on their situation. Melees can go balls out and smash monsters in Offensive gear, and then switch into PDT gear if they take damage or MDT gear if a high tier spell is being cast on them. Mages can idle in full Defensive gear, and then instantly swap to the appropriate Magic boosting gear every time they cast a spell without missing a beat.

When Monks and Warriors are able to deal twice as much damage as Paladins, all while being able to swap into the same Defensive gear and take the same amount of damage (Less, in Monk's case), of course Paladin is going to be shoved out of top tier. It doesn't bother me either. Paladin had years in the sun, and right now it's a mid-tier DD anyways. If anyone has a right to complain, look at RNG and DRK =/.

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If anyone has a right to complain, look at SAM and DRK =/.

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Rng fits in the same category as drg, nasty DD but not useful for much else. SAM really hit it hard after Abyssea more that RNG, seeing as Fudo is laughable on high def targets, and lacks a crit skill to make up for that. Refulgent and Sidewinder are still beastly in their own right, and Jishnu's/Wildfire are amazing.

As far as the DD aspect of PLD goes, One with an Almace does very good damage and can hold thier own, i watched a PLD with one always doing 2-5k+ altho almace in an empyean weapon, it did help plds a great ton in keeping hate.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

You sound like those RNGs swearing up and down the class is still top tier.

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My rng could have kicked your ass at 75.

Go go 5-10 secs per slug shot.

You can still be a PLD main get good gear atmas skill up your weapons for blues and red !!, PLD actually can use a lot of weapons for red, sword, great sword, staff, club, polearm. If you actually get good gear for PLD you will probably still outdamage 90% of the bad wars, mnks, nins ect. Will you be as good as someone that is good at their class probably not but still better then nothing.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

You have to accept your limits. PLD is a job that tanks through being at hate cap while others hold back and avoid reaching it. WHM is a job curing while it has MP. A PLD that can tank through hate cap of DD, is as dumb as a WHM that can cure without MP. Restrictions are there to make you think about how you play and add "difficulty".

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Inside or outside Abyssea PLD is underwater in an age where DD actually know how to gear for DMG and use defensive tools. Hold back all you want, DD will reach the hate cap and they'll be tanking unless you have them kill themselves.

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PLD is fine. What is less fine is how well a WAR deals damage while surviving attacks with a WHM healer. WAR should be able to tank of course, being the second best armored job in the game, but it shouldn't be able to do as much damage while doing so. This is the balance issue. Not if PLD can hold hate, but how much damage melee can do and receive at once.

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DD: Improvements
Healing: Improvements
Support: Improvements
PLD: Stagnation

If stagnation is fine to you, so be it. Armor = tanking? This is the game where "cloth" classes like MNK, BLU and RDM have all seen their turns in the tanking seat.

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I wouldn't hesitate for a second to say that WAR is wholly broken. I'd even say WHM is wholly broken, even though most people are incapable of understanding how anything can be unbalanced if they don't do massive damage. But PLD? It is right where it should be. Just a shame it is there while other jobs are under or overpowered, making it LOOK bad.

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Nonsense. All of Abyssea is overpowered and yeah, some jobs have suffered from it but that isn't PLD.

PLD has problems inside AND outside Abyssea. The jobs fundamental purpose has always been threatened - be that from NINs, then NIN/DRKs, then RDM/NINs to todays DD.

People have gotten smarter investing in PDT/MDT sets and realizing that hey, you don't need a PLD for much and even if you HAD the PLD it'd make no difference as they'd probably be oneshotted too if said monster is that difficult.

Oshit buttons can be useful but when that's your only reason to bring a PLD, the jobs in trouble.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

You can still be a PLD main get good gear atmas skill up your weapons for blues and red !!, PLD actually can use a lot of weapons for red, sword, great sword, staff, club, polearm. If you actually get good gear for PLD you will probably still outdamage 90% of the bad wars, mnks, nins ect. Will you be as good as someone that is good at their class probably not but still better then nothing.

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PLD red procs are useless. If you're using a PLD to Red, you obviously don't have a WAR there. If you don't have a WAR there, you need at least a NIN and a DRK along with your PLD to cover all 13 WS (which is the whole point, isn't it?). Having to use a PLD and a DRK put together instead of just getting a single WAR is an absolute waste, especially when that one WAR would probably outdamage both the DRK and PLD combined.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

That all sounds more like personal bias then a game problem. I for one, especialy as a WHM, like having PLDs around.

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Be a better White Mage.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

especially when that one WAR would probably outdamage both the DRK and PLD combined.

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I dunno, it'd be close.

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PLD has problems inside AND outside Abyssea. The jobs fundamental purpose has always been threatened - be that from NINs, then NIN/DRKs, then RDM/NINs to todays DD.

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You do know the game is supposed to have 3-5 jobs worthy of being called tanks, right? There is no exclusive PLD club that are the only tank jobs. If you want to blame anyone, it is the players for not using all tank jobs, but only the best ones. And expecting SE to every single update make the "not best" tank into "best tank" with an update is ridiculous.

And I'm still confused why so many PLDs complain but so few SMNs. PLDs are useless if other jobs steal hate, because they can't tank. SMNs are useless if people steal hate and tank, because it means being hate free and doing low damage has zero benefits over doing massive damage and just tanking.

My assumption is that all SMNs are so used to being overlooked and ignored that we just shrug it off. But you old "popular" PLDs who have been in the spot light as best tanks ever, are just yapping about it to get back. Really, you aren't worse off than SMNs have been the entire FFXI life span.

Until I've seen you live as PLD/WHM main healers 4 years, you'll get no sympathy from me. You are still far away from bottom of the barrel where I've lived for a decade.

i'd still rather a pld that can hold hate and take a hit a lot more than a job that gets slapped once their shadows are gone

So only Pld has access to PDT/MDT sets, okay.

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Originally Posted by Kingofgeeks

i'd still rather a pld that can hold hate and take a hit a lot more than a job that gets slapped once their shadows are gone

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Shadows? What are those?

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Originally Posted by rog

Shadows? What are those?

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They're those weird things that mimic us and follow us around if we go outside when the sun is out. :(

They almost always aggro, and are quite hard to zone.

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Originally Posted by Fiarlia

They're those weird things that mimic us and follow us around if we go outside when the sun is out. :(

They almost always aggro, and are quite hard to zone.

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Never heard of it.

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Originally Posted by rog

Never heard of it.

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They're scary. :(

You can't bring friends either, because they'll each aggro one. >_<

Pet jobs' pets also aggro them too.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

PLD red procs are useless. If you're using a PLD to Red, you obviously don't have a WAR there. If you don't have a WAR there, you need at least a NIN and a DRK along with your PLD to cover all 13 WS (which is the whole point, isn't it?). Having to use a PLD and a DRK put together instead of just getting a single WAR is an absolute waste, especially when that one WAR would probably outdamage both the DRK and PLD combined.

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I already said before SE doesn't balance classes, its obvious that a Warrior has more damage potential then a Paladin. You can still play whatever job you want probably be better then 90-95% of the people if you work really hard on the gear. Some people don't want to reroll other classes and want to play what they have. FFXI is such a joke now that doesn't even matter what job you take. You can duo most anything with 1 melee and 1 whm. If PLD is the only job you really play who really cares.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I already said before SE doesn't balance classes, its obvious that a Warrior has more damage potential then a Paladin. You can still play whatever job you want probably be better then 90-95% of the people if you work really hard on the gear. Some people don't want to reroll other classes and want to play what they have. FFXI is such a joke now that doesn't even matter what job you take. You can duo most anything with 1 melee and 1 whm. If PLD is the only job you really play who really cares.

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This I will agree with, especially the portion about being better than most of the population. Regardless of this though, it doesn't change how good PLD itself actually is. If the person were to level a different job they'd likely perform better. If they have no desire to level another job, however, they will be limited in abilities because PLD itself is limited, regardless of how good they may or may not be. But in this case, the person in question shouldn't try to advocate the usage of PLD in the larger population, at least as far as how useful or good the job is, since it's the person in the chair who is good, not the job.

Give PLD a job trait that grants +10% to their non volatile enmity cap and +15% to their volatile enmity cap by lvl 90.