Relic Adjustments - The balancing act

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

Thanks for reading! You may have missed something though.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

2) Keep in mind that the goal is to make each weapon useful, without necessarily making it the best in every situation.

---

My rebuttal:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

Claustrum - This is both a hard and an easy weapon to save. By making it so you never have to take it off and increasing GoT so it regains more MP than SA-Spirit Taker, this weapon becomes much more viable.
* Add +35% magic damage, +65 Magic Accuracy, and Avatar Perpetuation Cost -6 to the level 90 weapon, scaling up from +20%/+20 and -3 on the level 75 weapon.
* Change Gate of Tartarus' modifier from 60% CHR to 60% INT.
* Make Gate of Tartarus' give 40MP/tick as its Aftermath instead of 8MP/tick (400MP per 100TP, or 800MP/minute max).

---

Nirvana gets -7 perp.

Hverg gets Myrkr. Admittedly, you'd need 2000 MP (plausible in Abyssea) for a 100TP Myrkr to restore 400 MP, but that weaponskill also lets you stay out of range and restores status effects.

Any run of the mill ToM staff that a dedicated player can grind out in literally two days gets 5 Affinity or -5 Perp, so this is a one point upgrade to both of those, and they come with spell casting or recast time reduction.

Claustrum currently has no niche. There currently is no single "best damage staff." Making Claustrum the best damage staff and functional in the other roles isn't overpowering it, it's giving it any role at all.

Gjallarhorn does need a buff, even though a couple people here think otherwise.

I've said this in the Brd forums but...
If we do get March III (which an Animation does appear to be in the dats), then capping Magical Haste won't be exclusive to Gjallarhorn. Scherzo's better used with Daurdabla since the potency increase with Gjallarhorn isn't worth it. Ballads aren't needed inside Abyssea and we have easily obtainable Ballad+ gear to supplement Ballad for outside Abyssea anyways.

A song specific for Gjallarhorn has been in need for awhile, and it looks like it'll be hopefully getting Massacre Elegy, which would be a great buff to Gjallarhorn owners.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

Nirvana gets -7 perp.

Hverg gets Myrkr. Admittedly, you'd need 2000 MP (plausible in Abyssea) for a 100TP Myrkr to restore 400 MP, but that weaponskill also lets you stay out of range and restores status effects.

Any run of the mill ToM staff that a dedicated player can grind out in literally two days gets 5 Affinity or -5 Perp, so this is a one point upgrade to both of those, and they come with spell casting or recast time reduction.

Claustrum currently has no niche. There currently is no single "best damage staff." Making Claustrum the best damage staff and functional in the other roles isn't overpowering it, it's giving it any role at all.

---

You're stretching now. A black mage weapon that does more magic damage and has more magic accuracy for every element then any other staff isn't a "niche" weapon (yes, even including the -casting or -recast times). Implying that it is because it has less -perp cost then a fully upgraded mythic, or that it doesn't recover as much mp as another staff that has no other redeeming value really exposes the weakness in your argument. The fact that you had to use abyssea buffs to even make the point makes it even more laughable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ahrana

You're stretching now. A black mage weapon that does more magic damage and has more magic accuracy for every element then any other staff isn't a "niche" weapon (yes, even including the -casting or -recast times). Implying that it is because it has less -perp cost then a fully upgraded mythic, or that it doesn't recover as much mp as another staff that has no other redeeming value really exposes the weakness in your argument. The fact that you had to use abyssea buffs to even make the point makes it even more laughable.

---

No, it is a "niche" weapon. Its "niche" is being the best nuking weapon. Right now every relic and mythic nuking staff is outclassed by standard ToM staves. Making Claustrum the best nuking weapon by a paltry 4% (1.35/1.3) is not going to make it standard equipment or expected. As for how the BLM Mythic (Laev) would be changed to be useful, I'm not sure. You could just slap Enmity-50 on it with decent nuking stats and call it a day, but people tend not to value Enmity reduction on BLM because you generally re-cap VE every nuke with or without it. That's a problem for another day.

The -6 Perp and weaponskill are just a nod to Summoner (if you swap the staff you lose the aftermath), who can also equip the staff. In standard SMN-is-useful-here fights, some combination of Nirvana and/or Hverg would be preferable to this staff (for instance, idling and BPing in Nirvana and using Hverg when you get a Dusty Wing temp). My summoner has 1400 MP outside Abyssea wearing AF3+2 without MP merits. If people felt like it (including the +120 MP on the staff), I'm sure they could pump themselves up to 2000 MP for WS and get back 400MP at 100TP with Myrkr outside Abyssea if they felt like it.

Claustrum would just be a desirable weapon with a role instead of a gigantic waste of currency. It's not like making it useful is suddenly going to make it easy to obtain, with mages that fail to obtain it being ostracized by the (exclusive?) endgame establishment. The game is in its twilight years and people do events with any group they can cobble together. I accept people in my voidwatch alliance as long as I can be fairly sure they're less of a liability than they are an asset. Half the time I'm dualboxing two HQ Ele staff BLM/RDMs just going for procs. In Abyssea? Forget about it, I don't even bring staves when I'm proccing with my mule's BLM/BRD.

What does it hurt to have a clear "best" staff? Isn't the elusive "Rainbow Staff" what BLMs have been dreaming of for years? I've had friends who quit the game essentially because they capped out on gear and Bard is the only mage job that gets a useful relic or, in one case, got G-horn and then quit.

As I said before, while some people legitimately worked for their relic weapons, most of the people that have them buy gil, steal LS banks, sell drops on NM's claimed with bots, or make relic linkshells that get broken after they get theirs. I would prefer if SE didn't cater to the trash who normally have relic weapons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ahrana

As I said before, while some people legitimately worked for their relic weapons, most of the people that have them buy gil, steal LS banks, sell drops on NM's claimed with bots, or make relic linkshells that get broken after they get theirs. I would prefer if SE didn't cater to the trash who normally have relic weapons.

---

There are plenty of legitimate players (honestly, probably the majority) that don't match your description of relic owners. "Relic Linkshells," Dynamis funding, and all that other crap have always been a trap, but they're a pretty obvious trap that's avoidable by anyone with half a brain and a little common sense. People that join them should realize what a pyramid scheme they are before they join, and just accept that they're trading a lot of potential profit for the ability to take part in endgame events (until something better comes along, I'd hope.) I didn't do Dynamis for two years because I couldn't find a shell that wasn't obviously exploitation. When I helped lead one, it was straight sell and split and I made sure we got top dollar for our currency.

Currently, relics are very easy to obtain relative to what they once were. They may not be quite Empyrean weapon-easy yet, but they really aren't very hard and get easier by the day as people figure out the new Dynamis proc system and the price of currency drops. In the last months and a half, I've effectively spent about a relic and a half worth of gil (on Alexandrite), most of which came from farming Dynamis, Salvage, BCNMs, sea/sky farming, and some minor resale. I don't sell anything R/Ex. I don't bot. I don't exploit people. If people come to help me, I try and make sure I'm not wasting their time. If I think I'm wasting their time, I feel bad and generally try to stop them from helping me.

These aren't some pie-in-the-sky god-weapons that only the demonic botting overlords of dragon's aery can possibly own (not that they ever have been). These are things that you could literally get in two months if you play regularly and put your mind to it. Farm about a 140 currency per day duoing with a mule (or friend) and weapons take about 14000 currency not including relic loan. Assuming all you do for currency is 2~2.5 hours of Dynamis a day (realistically including prep time), you're still looking at only ~4 months to complete your weapon. If you toss some gil into the equation or spend time doing other things I'm sure you could get it in 2.

My friend on Carbuncle named Arcanes got his Uko in a 23 hours time period so basically 1 day. The time required to get relics far exceeds that amount of time by a long shot. The empyrean weapons are quite easy to get compared to relic/mythic and yet they are far more powerful in most cases. I am curious how SE resolves this as they have mentioned. I am gleeful inside about that considering people with empyrean were quite happy to tell relic/mythic owners to suck it up and get over the old content. These are the same people that are upset their week or so empyrean weapons might become the weaker weapon.

Relic are trophy

Find it interesting that most people that are downing the idea of any enhancement to relic weapons mainly state the following:

Relic are trophy
People with Relic weapons either schemed it off people, stole banks, or bought gil to buy the currency.
Boosting relic weapons would just put people back into the Have and Have nots, we don't need a "relic or GTFO" mentality.
Relic are just fine the way they are.

Relic shouldn't be "just a trophy" based on all the work to get one.

Out of all the Relic owners in my LS I can tell you for a fact it has nothing to do with scheming the population, being a gil buyer, or stealing LS banks. In fact the number of people that do this is probably a smaller portion of relic owners than some of you think. I don't want to say this is envy on your part, but it is hard not to see it this way. And just to put it out there the Relic owners in the LS range from leads to normal members, our only requirement for obtaining a relic is be an active participant in all events and long-time membership.

While I agree Relic needs a little more of a boost, I don't want it super powered. I just want something that took me years to build to be equal to a weapon that takes only a matter of days to build. Even with adjustments to dynamis it still takes longer to build. It is just sad to see a weapon that took a few days to make outclassing one that takes longer by not just a few hundred dmg, but upwards of a few thousand in damage. If anything these weapons should be near to equal, not 10% or greater difference in favor of Emp.

As for the suggestion for Relic staff, I have to concur that making it that powerful is horribly unbalanced even by today's standards. While I think it needs some form of adjustment to actually be useful to mage oriented gameplay, I don't think it needs to be ridiculously outclassing other options. ToM weapons take a bit of time to make also so they shouldn't be cast aside so easily just because the boost is to a Relic weapon. As I said though, it should be geared more for mage play rather than melee.

@Xellith: Agreed, effort to reward ratio is off the charts as far as imbalance.

I would like to see all relics and mythics at the VERY LEAST brought up to par in Weaponskill strength and effectiveness of Aftermath. And you know I'm right! Just look at Apoc, gear haste can be capped FOR FREE with ease by almost every job, even Dusk Gloves+1 got bumped to tier1 to help facilitate this, so that weapon needs work, OH WAIT! HAI They all do!

@Ahrana. Are you trolling? Majority bought through RMT and stealing????? No, please be serious in this thread.

For some of us, that spent years collecting coins 1 by 1 at a time, dreamed of the day that it would finally be done, had friends come and gone that helped farm or even gave up some currency of their own( oh hai Daywalker ftw my last 752 o bronze pieces) that kind of talk is a slap in the face. Look, we get it, more user friendly is what SE is after, they want to keep their player base, cool, I like all the new content, I even have an empy, it's rad thanks... But PLEASE recognize those players that spent every single hour of their free time farming in this game to achieve the ultimate weapon. Just give us the attention, we the loyal, we the hard working, we the adventures who truly are adventurers at heart, just give us what we ask for, the balance we deserve.

Is that too much to ask? Not better, equal.

Thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AldielQuetz

@Xellith: Agreed, effort to reward ratio is off the charts as far as imbalance.

I would like to see all relics and mythics at the VERY LEAST brought up to par in Weaponskill strength and effectiveness of Aftermath. And you know I'm right! Just look at Apoc, gear haste can be capped FOR FREE with ease by almost every job, even Dusk Gloves+1 got bumped to tier1 to help facilitate this, so that weapon needs work, OH WAIT! HAI They all do!

---

Your argument would be better if you knew that the apoc aftermath effect counted as job ability haste and not gear haste. Kind of a wash since dark knights can cap JA haste with last resort, but it does help cover the time that it would be down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AldielQuetz

@Ahrana. Are you trolling? Majority bought through RMT and stealing????? No, please be serious in this thread.

For some of us, that spent years collecting coins 1 by 1 at a time, dreamed of the day that it would finally be done, had friends come and gone that helped farm or even gave up some currency of their own( oh hai Daywalker ftw my last 752 o bronze pieces) that kind of talk is a slap in the face. Look, we get it, more user friendly is what SE is after, they want to keep their player base, cool, I like all the new content, I even have an empy, it's rad thanks... But PLEASE recognize those players that spent every single hour of their free time farming in this game to achieve the ultimate weapon. Just give us the attention, we the loyal, we the hard working, we the adventures who truly are adventurers at heart, just give us what we ask for, the balance we deserve.

---

Well, if you're slapped in the face then oh well. Fact is that it happened, and it happened a lot. Linkshells didn't sit up in Dragons Aery with bots to pass the time, that's how they bought (certain) members relics. Half the time they didn't want anything for themselves, they were just looking to sell the ebody, ridill, BB item, nhead, dring, hermies boots, etc. You can talk til you're blue in the face about how you earned your relic, and that may or may not be true. I do know people that earned relics that way, but I know more people that "earned" relics through non-traditional ways, or at least supplemented their income that way.

If you ask them they all say they did the "hard work" approach though. Funny how that works.

Well on our server we obviously didn't have the same RMT problem until really late in the game, but I do see what you are saying Ahrana, but the generalization was you used a word like most/every/etc so that's all I took offense at. But you have to realize that on Quetz it literally took years for something like what you are talking about(example: ppl selling ebody etc). In fact a LS from another server MOVED to ours since they would have little or no competition to sell abjurations and ridills et al.

Regardless, my point remains... The people like me, like I HOPE is the majority, collected coins from lvl 15 no sub, and on.. That spent literal years of their life, farming Alkys, farming PCCs, starting their own dynamis LS and supporting multiple relics simultaneously like the one I was in(PerfectAteraxia), these people, these quality characters, they deserve to see these weapons be reworked. Period.

Now, I apologize if this has been said, but my internet is crawling right now (I'm blaming the earthquake...) so I didn't get to read everything.

You can't really give Excalibur an enmity bonus or Mandau a big crit bonus because everyone seems to forget that there are multiple jobs (RDM!) on both of these weapons. I know that an Excal RDM wouldn't necesarily want to be on top of the hate list after WS-ing. Go ahead and lawl at me for suggesting RDM melee (for the record, I do it all the time! :D ), but there are those that do it, and since RDM doesn't have a Relic/Empy of their own, we have to adapt.

It's real a wonder, the role RDM gets put in. I mean, they cannot even be classified by their Relic/Mythic/Emperean because they're main'd and better used on other jobs. Why go Almace on RDM when BLU gets more sword skill and DEX? Shame on any RDM that needs the MACC from Murgleis. Can RDM get a bone in the ultimate weapon department?

However, personal gripes aside, I'm down with the proposed changes. I never went Relic hunting, mostly because the WS's and aftermaths were so awful, it didn't seem worth my time. I support the changes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ahrana

Your argument would be better if you knew that the apoc aftermath effect counted as job ability haste and not gear haste. Kind of a wash since dark knights can cap JA haste with last resort, but it does help cover the time that it would be down.

---

It gives you 10% Equipment haste, which is why Apoc users have 16% Haste aftermath sets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ahrana

Well, if you're slapped in the face then oh well. Fact is that it happened, and it happened a lot. Linkshells didn't sit up in Dragons Aery with bots to pass the time, that's how they bought (certain) members relics. Half the time they didn't want anything for themselves, they were just looking to sell the ebody, ridill, BB item, nhead, dring, hermies boots, etc. You can talk til you're blue in the face about how you earned your relic, and that may or may not be true. I do know people that earned relics that way, but I know more people that "earned" relics through non-traditional ways, or at least supplemented their income that way.

If you ask them they all say they did the "hard work" approach though. Funny how that works.

---

In the days of kings, I was in an event shell with well over a dozen relics that never camped kings. Dynamis, Salvage, Sea, Sky, Einherjar, Limbus, KS99s, Ouryu v2/Bahamut, etc. Most of the owners made their gil through crafting. The closest we came to HNM camping was camping Tiamat, which we did on a "your claim/camp, your drops" basis, or Ixion before there was stiff competition and spook wars. If they were RMTing, it wasn't to buy gil/relics but to sell.

Everyone in endgame (except people who don't camp anything) were called botters at one point or another in those days. Half of the times the accusations were accurate. Heck, I got called a botter at one point by an unabashed chinese RMT taru in sky because I claimed Ulli so quickly. Best botter to ever grace the PS2, if I don't say so myself!

Anyway, it doesn't matter what your opinion of past relic owners is. Lowering the effort required to get a relic (through the dynamis re-vamp) opens the door for many new potential relic owners who shouldn't be penalized for your opinion of their predecessors.



Also, why do RDMs want to melee but not do enough damage to take hate? Taking hate is a trivially easy task these days due to the way the Enmity system fails. If you aren't taking hate, then your damage sucks. Why would you melee if your damage sucks? I agree that none of the weapons are geared towards RDM melee, but the proposed changes to Mandau (letting Mercy Stroke crit without a forcing JA) and Excal (increasing add effect proc rate) would help them compete with Almace at least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

demonic botting overlords of dragon's aery

---

I've been looking for a name for my progressive blackened death metal band for a while, and I finally found it! You just saved me from being the bass-player in "Satan's Butt".

I've never understood the argument of "some people do things in a manner of which I do not approve, and therefor [insert argument here]" in the context of FFXI. What some people choose to do socially shouldn't determine the numbers on items, in my opinion.

Anyway, the current method for obtaining a relic weapon is "repeatedly duo or trio dynamis with a few bros and bro-ettes" so should how people obtained them back in the day even matter?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ahrana

Your argument would be better if you knew that the apoc aftermath effect counted as job ability haste and not gear haste. Kind of a wash since dark knights can cap JA haste with last resort, but it does help cover the time that it would be down.

---

Oh, wow lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Oh, wow lol

---

wasn't always like that though. A way to start to fix apoc would be to undo what they did two years ago.


EDIT: I've been thinking a lot about Spharai. While I don't think they should beat their empyrean counterpart I do think SE can bring some traditional elements to MNK through them, without overshadowing mythic/empyrean.

If spharai could be given additional effects that grant stun/paralyze/ and a dot effect "bleed" I think the weapon would be far more appealing.
Idk, could make the additional effect be dependant on JAs you use.
for exampe
"Spharai Lv.99
Augments Focus - with focus up, melee attacks with spharai have a 40% chance of paralyzing target
Augments Perfect Counter - counters may inflict a wound and cause target to bleed for 2 minutes @ 20hp/tick.
Augments Impetus - with impetus up and spharai, attacks have a 40% chance of stunning target.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cursed

wasn't always like that though. A way to start to fix apoc would be to undo what they did two years ago.

---

Are you sure? I think the only changes they made were adding the Haste cap and making Aftermath wear off if you switched weapons. You never needed an Apoc to hit 93.3% Haste on DRK, you just needed one to hit it without using a 2-hour (other than the DRK's). That's why Bahamut's Zaghnal zerging was momentarily popular.

Using Apoc would let you use Haste belt (10% magic Haste), which you could combine with BRD songs (20.5%) and Haste spell (15%) for capped magic Haste without SV. Not really practical outside zergs, but nice for zergs while it lasted I guess. For a while, you could also swap weapons (even to k-club, iirc) and maintain the 10% Haste aftermath.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

Are you sure? I think the only changes they made were adding the Haste cap and making Aftermath wear off if you switched weapons. You never needed an Apoc to hit 93.3% Haste on DRK, you just needed one to hit it without using a 2-hour (other than the DRK's). That's why Bahamut's Zaghnal zerging was momentarily popular.

Using Apoc would let you use Haste belt (10% magic Haste), which you could combine with BRD songs (20.5%) and Haste spell (15%) for capped magic Haste without SV. Not really practical outside zergs, but nice for zergs while it lasted I guess. For a while, you could also swap weapons (even to k-club, iirc) and maintain the 10% Haste aftermath.

---

Yeah I should have been a bit clearer - Remove the Haste cap for Apoc users like they removed the PDT/MDT cap for burtgang and Aegis.

But keep the "unequiping apoc causes aftermath to drop" as none of us want to see a return to 300% catos for KC SE/BW zergs. Always did my head in thinking of Apoc as an accessory for KC's

Almost forgot, SE please ... fix the name of Excalibur's WS... its been almost a decade.
Knights of Round..... needs to be "Knights of the Round"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cursed

Almost forgot, SE please ... fix the name of Excalibur's WS... its been almost a decade.
Knights of Round..... needs to be "Knights of the Round"

---

wow.....I just now noticed this...I've been adding/saying the since I first saw the weapon X_X this needs to be fixed..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

Also, why do RDMs want to melee but not do enough damage to take hate? Taking hate is a trivially easy task these days due to the way the Enmity system fails. If you aren't taking hate, then your damage sucks. Why would you melee if your damage sucks? I agree that none of the weapons are geared towards RDM melee, but the proposed changes to Mandau (letting Mercy Stroke crit without a forcing JA) and Excal (increasing add effect proc rate) would help them compete with Almace at least.

---

I would have no problem dealing enough damage to take hate. I would flatter myself, actually (not that RDM has the gear to do that anyway...lawl). However, the proposed fix to Knights of Round was an enmity boost, and I don't like unnecessary hate. I'll take it if I dish it: I've got enough buffs to keep me alive until the tank gets it back. I just don't want to be using a big enmity tool every time I deal damage. Capiche?

I detect a lot of jealousy in this thread...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ahrana

Half the time they didn't want anything for themselves, they were just looking to sell the ebody, ridill, BB item, nhead, dring, hermies boots, etc. ------------- I do know people that earned relics that way, but I know more people that "earned" relics through non-traditional ways, or at least supplemented their income that way.

---

I do not think that items like Ridill, Ebody and Dring were commonly sold by hnm shells back @ 75 cap. Hell, people are still wanting those items. As for things like BB items and Nhead - those were common drops and linkshells got capped on them quickly. Hermes Sandals? Same deal, linkshells got capped on them quickly, especially seeing as it's only a very few jobs that can equip them. Would it be better to just let these items hit the ground? Or do you think they should have been given away for free and not sold? Something tells me you never did hnms or even other endgame activities much.

As for the bolded part - how do you know this? Have they told you themselves straight out how they got their relic weapon? Or are you just repeating what you have heard from others - i.e. gossip.

I don't have a relic. But I have several friends who have one, and I know they worked their butt off for this weapon. So on behalf of them, and every other relic owner that earned their weapon the hard way, I do take offense. I'm certain the majority of relic owners got theirs by hard work and dedication. And I hope the weapons get the buffs they deserve, seeing as they have been "the best of the best" (for the most part) for such a long time.

I can't add much to this conversation I guess (Having little chance to get a relic, no chance to get a mythic and working on Verethragna but it's like walking on oil-covered glass getting help), but I do have to agree with one comment above:

Can we please get some TOAU/WOTG Relic Love? Wouldn't be hard (BLU: Excalibur, PUP: Spharai, COR: Annihilator, DNC: Mandau, SCH:... Well, Claustrum I guess, just to throw them a bone. I love SCH, but Claustrum, as is, doesn't do a whole lot for SCH, though the Refresh Aftermath couldn't hurt, especially if you're TPing via Occult Accumen.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitkat

Find it interesting that most people that are downing the idea of any enhancement to relic weapons mainly state the following:

Relic are trophy
People with Relic weapons either schemed it off people, stole banks, or bought gil to buy the currency.
Boosting relic weapons would just put people back into the Have and Have nots, we don't need a "relic or GTFO" mentality.
Relic are just fine the way they are.

Relic shouldn't be "just a trophy" based on all the work to get one.

Out of all the Relic owners in my LS I can tell you for a fact it has nothing to do with scheming the population, being a gil buyer, or stealing LS banks. In fact the number of people that do this is probably a smaller portion of relic owners than some of you think. I don't want to say this is envy on your part, but it is hard not to see it this way. And just to put it out there the Relic owners in the LS range from leads to normal members, our only requirement for obtaining a relic is be an active participant in all events and long-time membership.

While I agree Relic needs a little more of a boost, I don't want it super powered. I just want something that took me years to build to be equal to a weapon that takes only a matter of days to build. Even with adjustments to dynamis it still takes longer to build. It is just sad to see a weapon that took a few days to make outclassing one that takes longer by not just a few hundred dmg, but upwards of a few thousand in damage. If anything these weapons should be near to equal, not 10% or greater difference in favor of Emp.

As for the suggestion for Relic staff, I have to concur that making it that powerful is horribly unbalanced even by today's standards. While I think it needs some form of adjustment to actually be useful to mage oriented gameplay, I don't think it needs to be ridiculously outclassing other options. ToM weapons take a bit of time to make also so they shouldn't be cast aside so easily just because the boost is to a Relic weapon. As I said though, it should be geared more for mage play rather than melee.

---

I have two relic, still just trophy. I'm not mad at them being weak. I was replying that at comments that their strength should be proportionate to the time needed to acquire, which I greatly disagree with. They should be barely better than empyreans, just barely. I hate the game breaking nature of aegis, even though I have one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfandre

I would have no problem dealing enough damage to take hate. I would flatter myself, actually (not that RDM has the gear to do that anyway...lawl). However, the proposed fix to Knights of Round was an enmity boost, and I don't like unnecessary hate. I'll take it if I dish it: I've got enough buffs to keep me alive until the tank gets it back. I just don't want to be using a big enmity tool every time I deal damage. Capiche?

---

If you're meleeing and doing good damage, you will inevitably tank. If you're a competent player, it's better to have you tank on RDM/NIN than the guys you're out-DDing on lolRDM. I still don't see the issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

I have two relic, still just trophy. I'm not mad at them being weak. I was replying that at comments that their strength should be proportionate to the time needed to acquire, which I greatly disagree with. They should be barely better than empyreans, just barely. I hate the game breaking nature of aegis, even though I have one.

---

I have a moghouse full of trophies from holiday events, I didn't build a relic for aesthetics as I'm sure a good deal of others didn't. Most I know with a relic or emp. weapon built them for 1 reason: utility. I have one of each for the two jobs I use the most. A Trophy is something you get for show alone. I don't suppose you have yours just for show do you? Put it on only for Idle gear?

Additionally when I say "Should be worth the effort" I never said I want them to be decidedly more powerful than emp. I even stated they should be near to equal in strength and power. Some of them are equal in WS strength, yes, but due to the type of aftermath Emp. have they pull noticeably ahead of relic. Then you have the ones where the WS leaves the relic version in the dust on top of the aftermath effect. For Mandau, I personally like the aftermath the way it is, but seeing a WS difference of 1~1.5k in ideal situations is discouraging. The WS themselves have no TP mod unlike Emp weapons other than to prolong duration of aftermath.

Relics only need minor boosts to be equal to the emp and that is all I want; a minor boost in performance to close the otherwise outrageous gap that exist now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitkat

I have a moghouse full of trophies from holiday events, I didn't build a relic for aesthetics as I'm sure a good deal of others didn't. Most I know with a relic or emp. weapon built them for 1 reason: utility. I have one of each for the two jobs I use the most. A Trophy is something you get for show alone. I don't suppose you have yours just for show do you? Put it on only for Idle gear?

Additionally when I say "Should be worth the effort" I never said I want them to be decidedly more powerful than emp. I even stated they should be near to equal in strength and power. Some of them are equal in WS strength, yes, but due to the type of aftermath Emp. have they pull noticeably ahead of relic. Then you have the ones where the WS leaves the relic version in the dust on top of the aftermath effect. For Mandau, I personally like the aftermath the way it is, but seeing a WS difference of 1~1.5k in ideal situations is discouraging. The WS themselves have no TP mod unlike Emp weapons other than to prolong duration of aftermath.

Relics only need minor boosts to be equal to the emp and that is all I want; a minor boost in performance to close the otherwise outrageous gap that exist not.

---

I wasn't talking about you.
I was referring to this post:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xellith

SE devs talk about balance yet they have no idea what they are doing with regards to relic/mythic/empy weapons.

Difficulty:Reward ratio is skewed to badly with regards to these weapons its impossible to take the dev team seriously when they talk about said "balance".

Relics and Mythic should be much much more powerful.

Relics should be much more powerful with a higher DMG and better aftermath. Mythic should be on par with relics.

Empy should be SLIGHTLY easier to obtain with regard to collecting all those items at the end trials. Reduce the amount needed from 50 to 25. From 75 to 50. Bump up the NM difficulty so they cant just be easily low manned (hi to you masamune) and increase the number of NMs which must be hunted for these trials to start with.

But in the big picture im sure others can come up with better ideas than these. I just want it to be known that in my personal opinion relics should be very very powerful with the difficulty in obtaining them. Hell release a ring that corrosponds to each particular relic that when equiped your minimum WS is based off the level of the Monster you are fighting.

100-90 = 2k ws minimum
90-50 = 3k ws minimum
50-0 = 4k ws minimum

---

Relic/mythic should have a little bit of utility I agree, but I do not think it should be more than 2-3% better than the 2nd best option.

Just remove the off-hand limitation plz it's not fair at this moment which emp doesn't have that limitation; I still get the agi+ from Kannagi when used off-hand.

This thread has gone off the deep end!!!

Apoc should never and will never break the haste cap again. 90% haste vs. 80% haste results in you doing twice as much damage.

Also yes it's gear haste. LOL at telling someone their argument is invalid because they made a mistake when you are the one who made the mistake. Also, please gtfo with the "most people cheated to get their relic" argument.

People who don't think relics and mythics should be at least as good as emps melt my brain. There is no justification for something that takes as much effort as a relic/mythic to ever be outclassed by something that takes monumentally less work. Saying they are trophies is absolute nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sama

Just remove the off-hand limitation plz it's not fair at this moment which emp doesn't have that limitation; I still get the agi+ from Kannagi when used off-hand.

---

I concur with this, or at least make it so the visible stats work in offhand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insaniac

Saying they are trophies is absolute nonsense.

---

Nah, their strength should not be commensurate with the effort required to obtain. Slightly better sure, but the main reason to get outside of horn/shield is as a trophy item. Who is gonna waste 200m for 1% increase in dmg if they are really trying to improve their character? Would better to spend that on another job that has crapper equip, or to gear up an alt mule.

For the record, my suggestion (and Kirschy's) was to just make Apoc a different kind of Haste outside the categories of JA/Magic/Gear Haste, but still leave it subject to the 80% cap. This would allow Apoc DRK to be a more versatile low-buff job, instead of using aftermath to give a mostly trivial advantage to your TP set.

And another note....

WE WANT IMPROVEMENT NOT ANOTHER HOOP TO JUMP THROUGH. KTHX.

Translation, fix the relics, fix the mythics, THEN add another trial.

Make the balance we all desire please, thank you.

The level 75 80 85 90 and 95 versions are going to be useless anyway so I don't see what the rush is about.

Just to crystallize the arguments of the naysayers...

Quote:

---

Nah, their strength should not be commensurate with the effort required to obtain.

---

"The quality of a reward shouldn't reflect the amount of work it takes to get it!" or,
"There should be no additional motivation for doing extra work!"

Sound about right?

If you start an Empyrean weapon, ANY Empyrean weapon, you can have it done in a matter of weeks if you have trouble with drops and with getting people to come help. Working hard on a Relic from the beginning is on the order of months and starting a Mythic from the ground is well over a year. But yeah, you guys are right, they should all be basically the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

The level 75 80 85 90 and 95 versions are going to be useless anyway so I don't see what the rush is about.

---

That's exactly what I'm thinking... the ws dmg bonus on lv90 relic is as lame as you can think of. So just remove the off-hand limitation and we'll be happy, at least for a short while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gouka

Just to crystallize the arguments of the naysayers...



"The quality of a reward shouldn't reflect the amount of work it takes to get it!" or,
"There should be no additional motivation for doing extra work!"

Sound about right?

If you start an Empyrean weapon, ANY Empyrean weapon, you can have it done in a matter of weeks if you have trouble with drops and with getting people to come help. Working hard on a Relic from the beginning is on the order of months and starting a Mythic from the ground is well over a year. But yeah, you guys are right, they should all be basically the same.

---

Do you understand that if the effort to acquire was commensurate with the benefits given that the weapons would be too overpowered? If empyrean takes a week and relic takes a month, that means bravura should have 400 base damage, and conqueror should have 800 base damage?

They should be better than empyrean, I agree, but just barely. It would be stupid if their power was commensurate with the time required to obtain.

A. Watch your mouth Debbie, that's your only warning.

B. The point is, shouldn't they at least be equal in strength of WS and aftermath? Yes they should. Nobody wants to degrade Empyreans by upgrading Relics and Mythics, we just want the time it takes to make one to be a talking point/leverage to push for equalizing the top percentile of weapons.

C. I like you Debbie, explitives are not necessary to make a point, we can all hear you fine.