You see it as a goal, but you main PLD, what about anyone who does not main PLD? Are only people with excess amounts of time/gil and PLD mains the only people allowed to really play PLD in any meaningful content? I do not mean the hardest stuff in the game, like Delve bosses, I mean older content, VW for instance, or Legion, hell even Odin II adds and really anything level 99 in general. Are Relic and Emp PLDs the only PLDs that should really be useful in this content? Should other shields not truly be useful to some degree that allows people to play the job even if not as effectivly?
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06-05-2013, 01:16 PMDemon6324236
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06-05-2013, 01:30 PMOmnysValeforFFXI has been this way for as long as I've played it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
You could enjoy your job all you wanted but when it came time to do endgame, you sometimes had to get on a different job. This is not new. I loved my paladin, but I leveled nin so I could have merit invites cuz pld certainly wasn't getting them. This is XI.
Abyssea made it even worse 2/3 of the jobs were worthless most of the time. -
06-05-2013, 01:39 PMOmnysValeforThey're not the only pld's useful in the content. I see non aegis/ochains regularly enough. Maybe it's because Valefor sucks and our pool of puggable plds sucks but I see it often enough. I wonder, again, how effective pld/rdm would be for these guys, I've never seen one try it, but the small mdb, the fast cast, and ice spikes (for when reprisal is down), barspell. Yeah their mage can bar, but mages don't like to run into the fight. PLD/RDM and eat a taco. See how that goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
I've yet to see one of these PLDs have a respectable DT kit, and a dt kit is for pld what a curing kit is for whm. If you don't have one, you honestly shouldn't play it in any serious setting. -
06-05-2013, 01:44 PMDemon6324236What is endgame anymore? Seems to me almost all level 99 content involves an Aegis or Ochain requirement for PLD, so are you saying content made before level 99, like Abyssea or early VW, are about the only things that are non-EG?Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
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06-05-2013, 01:52 PMDemon6324236/SCH if better than /RDM is for PLD now days thanks to skill boosts, on top of skill boosts you get the -na spells and erase, which provide an amazing bonus to your own ability to survive and maintain yourself, so long as you have echoes very little can stop you.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
So far as PLD goes, I like the job, but I do not main it, that is why I have no Aegis or Ochain, at the same time I have a capped PDT/MDT set with a lot of MDT on it as well and a good shield, yet every time I offer my PLD to someone they ask the same question... "Do you have Aegis or Ochain?" and my reply is always the same, I do not, but my PLD is well geared and I know how to play the job. After that, besides people I know and a few VW shouts, I have never really gotten a reply back for PLD, if anything I have to send another tell a few shouts later offering another job because my PLD didnt meet their specs, aka, Aegis/Ochain.Quote:
I've yet to see one of these PLDs have a respectable DT kit, and a dt kit is for pld what a curing kit is for whm. If you don't have one, you honestly shouldn't play it in any serious setting.
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06-05-2013, 01:54 PMRaddYou still haven't rectified or solved the problem. There is no "endgame" as you think of it anymore. It's all level 99 content, thus everyone should be at least be able to attempt it no matter the job they pick. This is the only MMO I can think of where I have to level, gear up, and grind out another job, just to play the job I want. It's makes no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
I'm sorry, but a DT kit makes a big difference, yes, but you notice an even bigger gap when you have a DT set and a shield that can block 90-100% of the time, which also has a higher defense bonus on blocks compared to your standard size 3 kite shield.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
You could practically be naked with Ochain and probably take just as much damage as someone in a fully geared out DT set with an older shield. -
06-05-2013, 01:58 PMDemon6324236Sadly I would actually think the PLD with DT and old shield might take more depending on the level of the mob, because so far as I know Ochain can hit a 100% block rate, and on anything that is not a NM Ochain+PDT+Phalanx basically means 0 DMG, where as a non-Ochain shield can take it down, but on most mobs it will take it down to 10~25, rather than a straight 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
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06-05-2013, 02:00 PMOmnysValefor
I was talking about the entirety of FFXI. It has always been that you can go fool around on whatever job you like. You have always been able to do outdated content with odd job combos. There's a very old vid of a blm/nin tanking byakko (@75). Yeah they used a stun rotation but it was cool to watch.
There were a certain few jobs you could be on and never want for anything, but even those changed over time.
BLM and WHM might be the only jobs that have always been safe bets to have in XI. So many jobs weren't welcome in old-endgame. So many jobs weren't welcome in merit parties, they weren't even welcome exping. Far too many jobs (most of the list) didn't have a lot of use in Abyssea. Voidwatch opened the spread back up but only because of the proc-system.
For 5 years now, we've had more jobs than you can even fit in an alliance, and when you consider 3 of those are going to whm/sch, 3+ are going to brd/cor, 2 are going to pld.. it gets pretty sad.
But it's how XI is designed. Don't ask me why. -
06-05-2013, 02:04 PMOmnysValeforEvery one of the delve NMs gets past my block rating with ochain. Not just the melee-only. The cricket gets some unblocked in, the raptor. Kurma does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
Ochain's *thing* is amazing block rate, but now that we're fighting NMs higher than our level again, Ochain isn't stoneskin.
The scorp got me for a 1329 death scissors the first day in about 40% PDT and Ochain. I survived it. -
06-05-2013, 02:07 PMRaddIrrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
Again, as I've said. You still aren't solving the problem. You are just supporting and making excuses for poor game design. At 75 it was pretty balanced. Nowadays, as I said, it's R/M/E or bust, and that's bullshit from any standpoint.
"Hey, you want to play this game and have fun? Well first you have to jump through 50 hoops, while juggling chainsaws, while tight rope walking over a pit of lava. After that, and only after that, you can attempt to try climbing Mt. Everest naked." This is how it currently feels to me, and it makes the game a pain to log into these days.
It also makes the game pretty boring when there's only one straight way to gear yourself. "Do this or you can't play." Sounds like a rule a 5 year old would make up.
You'd probably be right. The shield is just that good, and it's even funnier that they made it such a bottleneck to get. If they are going to make RME stuff entry level, they should at least make it generally routine and simple to acquire now. If they make a Ochain/Aegis mix shield one day, I will probably just shake my head, because every other shield in the game would be instantly useless. Oh crap, I better not give them any ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
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06-05-2013, 02:09 PMRaddHoly hell, that just tells me it's even WORSE for someone without Ochain!Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
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06-05-2013, 02:10 PMDemon6324236Like I said, depends on the level of the mob. On a high level mob they will do about the same, but on lower level mobs the Ochain PLD will take less nude than the fully geared PLD with a normal shield.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
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06-05-2013, 02:14 PMOmnysValeforI know SCH is better, being able to cut reprisal's recast in half is very nice, stronger everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
I simple pondered about being able to bar the significant source of the "TANK'S DEAD" damage from those two mobs. Bars aren't 100% proc, but they're better than nothing, although Hailstorm is not worthless^^.
Those same shouts are requiring the DDs to have relic/empies as well, and now delve.
I've seen one voidwatch shout looking for delve weapons. I /facepalm'd. -
06-05-2013, 02:17 PMSephiran
As a PLD with both Aegis and Ochain, I still completely agree with the original post. The job is essentially unplayable if you don't have either of these items. Before I got mine, no one wanted me for anything. When I look back on those days, I realize how fortunate I was to meet the right people to play with. I also realize that many players are nowhere near that lucky, so I must look at their situation with some serious compassion.
I wholeheartedly agree with adding more shields to bridge the gap. I don't feel infringed upon in the least. -
06-05-2013, 02:22 PMDuelleWhich does not excuse bad game design. Just because it was like this at one point does not excuse its existence. Probably would have helped to have more people comment on it earlier in the game's life, but that doesn't mean you just sit there and take it, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
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06-05-2013, 02:23 PMDemon6324236Potentially yes, potentially no. It sounds like it was not blocked, so you can remove the block rate and damage reduction, putting it down to base stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
http://www.bg-wiki.com/images/b/bc/O...escription.png
http://www.bg-wiki.com/images/f/f1/S...escription.png
Steadfast has 10 more defense than Ochain, but no VIT, which puts it 2.5 defense under Ochain before Augments, level 6 augments are the highest listed on BG. Lets assume for a minute that it has 10 VIT, without counting in HP either, that means Steadfast would be at 2.5 defense ahead, but 15 VIT behind. Now, on top of all of this you have to count in that you are getting 7% extra PDT, which means you could stack more Defense or Null/Absorb gear instead of just PDT gear. So in the end, its very easily possible that a non-Ochain PLD could be hit with less damage than an Ochain PLD, if they have a Steadfast with possible augments and enough gear elsewhere to make up for the difference, and the attack is not blocked by either of them. -
06-05-2013, 02:29 PMRaddWhile this is true, the problem with this is that only matters when you fail the block check. In overall damage taken, the Ochain paladin will always take less physical damage over a larger amount of time due to the higher block rate alone. I guess it would make a big difference if it was the first hit and the only hit that lands on you, but you know fights last longer than that. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
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06-05-2013, 02:34 PMOmnysValeforIt wasn't one point in the game's history... it's been that way for all the year's I've played it, and gotten worse about it. Abyssea was a severely low point, and Voidwatch was a forced-spike back in the other direction, but SE has never balanced DD and they've now 4 more jobs than you can fit in an alliance, and that's before the 6-8 spots that are spoken for by 3-5 jobs (bard, paladin, cor, whm, sch), and the dd spots want sams, drks, wars, and monks anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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06-05-2013, 02:36 PMOmnysValeforHis point was about taking less damage from a likely-killing blow, I'd imagine. If you take the tp moves away from the scorp, or at least death scissors, an rdm and buckler pdt capped buckler pld could hold it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
Yeah, there's no doubt that Ochain is more reliable than steadfast, or aegis, when it comes to physical damage. -
06-05-2013, 02:41 PMDemon6324236Yes but there are 2 key differences.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
1. A DD can make an Emp easier than a PLD can make an Ochain. Look at their Abyssea stages, a visions NM, 3 pop spots for the NM, KIs can be gotten from boxes, honestly, I think Ironclads are harder than most of them, the only harder here is Glavoid. The second trial is another NM, same way as the first, while Ochain has souls, where you have to farm up a T2 KI, which can take as few as 1~2 pops, or as many as 20+, its very random, then you got another big play of random with the T3 pops, which you have to fight to get to claim even most of the time. On top of everything, a DD only needs 50 of their items, while a PLD needs 75 for this stage. Then for your third stages, well, DDs do not even have to do this stage for parties to accept them most of the time, you have the WS and AM, at that point, your an Emp DD. Ochain does not get anything of any use till 90 though, so you get to do Azdaja, the most difficult NM in all of Abyssea in my opinion, and again, 75 items, now a DD needs 75 items for this stage too but as I said, they are thought to be an Emp DD at 85 anyways, so does this count for them even? If so, still, these NMs are easier than Azdaja. One last advantage DDs have over PLD, souls can not be brewed through, and not many jobs can solo the T3s, so you will probably need people, the same can not be said of Emp NMs, where many can be soloed by skilled and geared players, while brews can be used for mass killings as well.
God that was a long one... ok...
2. As it was said earlier, a PLD is the most vital role in anything you bring it to, if the PLD goes down, there is a high chance you are going to end up wiping. Why does this matter? Because, I assure you I can bring a possibly lacking DD, causing us to kill slower, more often than I can bring a lacking tank, which if they die, causes us all to wipe shortly after. One causes the party to be slower and drag things out, the other leads to absolute failure, a large difference to me.
Yeah, this kind of thing makes me want to just tell people off honestly, not because I have no Delve weapon, but because the weapon you are requesting is newer than the content itself! Its not like its Legion or Odin II, something which was challenging before Delve weapons, its VW, its been easy and its still easy, hell, with Delve weapons you probably wont even be able to cap lights on the thing before you kill it unless you tell your DDs to hold back, in which case, what was the point!?Quote:
I've seen one voidwatch shout looking for delve weapons. I /facepalm'd.
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06-05-2013, 02:42 PMRaddOh I got his point, but I was just saying that in an overall case of not getting oneshot, you would want ochain glued to your arm for physical attacks no matter what, because it's too broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
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06-05-2013, 02:44 PMDemon6324236Yeah, I just meant that one specific hit to be exact would actually be worse for the Ochain PLD rather than for the non-Ochain PLD in that case. In the overall fight or in most cases, when a block is involved really, Ochain obviously takes full advantage and wins, but if you do not block it, then Ochain is worse off than Steadfast if done properly. Its another one of those situational things, kinda like how a Mythic is amazing with AM3, but without it, they suck, well, Steadfast is better than Ochain when Ochain fails to block, but when it blocks, its god.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
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06-05-2013, 02:48 PMRaddPretty much, but the chances of it not blocking are very low to moderate in comparison to your standard size 3 shield, and that's the problem lol. Steadfast looks like a great piece, too bad it's held back by overall block percentages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
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06-05-2013, 02:54 PMDemon6324236Admittedly the gap for Physical damage alone is not to large in my opinion on higher leveled mobs, its the advantage from the MP that creates the gap at that points in my opinion because a truly skilled PLD with the right gear can keep themselves alive forever so long as nothing hits them hard enough to basically kill them in 1 shot. No doubt you take less still, but the gap is more like a 20% gap, rather than 50% on lower levels. The MP on the other hand a non-Ochain PLD is not getting, while an Ochain PLD is recovering 25~35% of their MP back just by standing around and blocking, which lets them heal and keep casting a ton more. That goes back to what I said way earlier in here though, and that is that Ochain acts more like an Apoc does for a DRK, it opens that door to greater self sustainability, where as an Aegis is simply for taking hits only, kinda like Rag is just DMG power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
True, and agreed, I just wanted to point out that it does have some use and in that exact situation it would have been better for a Steadfast than an Ochain was all. I know generally it would not be the case. Its block rate will always be better than any other, but the whole thing is that if its to high of a level and blocking is not as likely, it loses a great deal of its Physical reduction power. I don't think there is a point where overall damage would tip in Steadfast's favor, but I think there is a point where on higher level mobs it closes the gap a bit. Magic damage on the other hand, nothing besides Aegis breaks the cap on MDT that a PLD gets natively so far as I know, so that is a gap you can not bridge no matter the level or the shield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
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06-05-2013, 03:12 PMOmnysValefor
I've got one last thing to say, but otherwise I'm done arguing, though I honestly have enjoyed your posts Demon^^. It's a silly difference of opinion.
(I will say I was wrong that a mid-level shield somehow nerfs people, like myself, who've built the shields. I DO think it's a bit of a slap in the face, but it doesn't affect me.)
I said my piece, a few times, and a few different ways and it's fine that people disagreed. A lot of people here merely speculating about what Ochain and Aegis must be like are creating illusions of grandeur. Why do I do well in Delve? Why does Zigfried (he's on my server, and were in the same shell for a short time)? We're both well geared PLDs. We don't equip Aegis, ask for Shell and go. We both have good DT sets (his is better than mine, but I'ma get my hands on the precious ring--yeah, d.ring). Ochain's blocking is a luxury but no longer afkable. You can bet that every minute the scorp is hitting me, even though it's purely physical damage, I'm watching my screen.
We don't stack hp gear blindly, we don't supertank in 5/5 Creed +2 (I like 2/5 myself. Hands/Legs.). A lot of people that won't build aegis/ochain won't build decent dt sets. They think 5/5 is fine and don't understand why it isn't. Yes, that set bonus has saved my life, but I'd say the 18% PDT/ 13% DT most players can put in those three slots has saved my life more not to mention causing me to see more 0s, though they're rare against nm's, then the mob gaining tp slower.
When I enter a delve, I'll pull with the group until we find NMs. It's better that I supertank the trash tahn a bard sleeps them because these half-baked bards couldn't resleep a peaceful baby. Ochain's blocking probably is 100% there, not that I pay much attention, and my log scrolls 0s.
When I do get my ring, I'll probably go build an MDB sword to go with ochain when I'm supertanking that way, it might allow me to change other things around and maybe fit in another piece of Creed, if I never get Nocturnus helm.
That's the level of commitment I put into Paladin and it makes me sad that a lot of people really want to half-bake it, though I'm sure the pros of the jobs I half-bake would cringe too. The difference is, I'm not trying to bring those jobs to content where speed of the kill matters.
Ochain/Aegis is so easy to get that there's a number of people that have it that don't even understand their job. I've encountered at least 2 paladins with aegis/ochain in the past week alone that don't know what supertanking is. These paladins have told me things like -
- You can't block while not engaged.
- You can't get tp if you block for 0 with phalanx (phalanx's reduction is ignored, though stoneskin/etc is not).
- so it's sad when you, someone who actually seems to understand the job, don't have the passion to play it the best you can.
Lastly, sometimes I die. These NMs can hurt even an aegis/ochain. I'm not sure what kind of less-good, but still acceptable shield SE could design. -
06-05-2013, 11:27 PMNumquam
More lazy players complaining!
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06-06-2013, 12:32 AMHaywardThanks for contributing absolutely nothing, BG drone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Numquam
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06-06-2013, 12:46 AMCamiie
With as good as these two shields are, why do some seem to think there's no room for truly strong shields in the intermediate to high-end range? It seems to me that SE has quite a lot of wiggle room here.
Beyond that with everyone else out there (sans BRD) replacing their hard earned R/M/E or holding out for a saving throw from the devs, why are these shields some sort of sacred cow that can never be approached or surpassed? -
06-06-2013, 12:52 AMKincard
I'd love to see them intentionally create an item with the goal of it beating Aegischain. It's pretty apparent that the reason they never outdated them in the first place is because they KNEW they were overpowered, no sane person designing a game would add in items that make your character nearly invulnerable to attack unless the goal was to add something broken.
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06-06-2013, 01:24 AMMirage
They can't add anything that is stronger than aegischain because it would break the game, basically.
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06-06-2013, 01:47 AMKarah
Holy... 24 hours and 70 posts... there is... no way in hell... I'm reading all that whining...
Look it's pretty simple; as a whole, we as a population, use pld for 1-2 things at any given time, as a temporary measure, until something better can be thought of.
We took plds to dynamis, then we learned it was a waste of a spot. We took plds to limbus, same thing happened. We took plds to salvage (i think? i can't honestly remember). We took plds to voidwatch.
It's all past tense. As soon as people understand that it's foolish to use a pld to hold 3-5 NMs in fracture and just start KILLING THEM for MORE plasm AND items, then pld is dead again.
If you're unable/unwilling to make aegis AND ochain, then suck it up, level a real job and wait it out.
And if you lack THEM BOTH you're not a real paladin, and you're not going to be doing the one thing worth needing a pld for right now, fracture naakuls.
Before you even mention it, lolodin. lollegion.
BTW I am 99 PLD -with- Ochain, and no Aegis, and I know better than to even say I have PLD leveled as I lack the Aegis. -
06-06-2013, 02:02 AMNumquamYou go, sistah!Quote:
Originally Posted by Karah
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06-06-2013, 02:13 AMHaywardIt must really take a special kind of talent to type so much and say next to nothing. Even some of the more notorious posters on Allakhazam had something of substance in their otherwise inane posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karah
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06-06-2013, 02:21 AMCrystalWeaponDo you ever post w/o the intent to insult people and or wave your epeen around?Quote:
Originally Posted by Karah
This issue doesn't concern me as I have the weapons to get into delve and NM runs, but I at least have the compassion to see the other side of things. Not every peice of gear in this game is as easy to get lowman as nakid brewing an Ironclad with an event weapon. >.> -
06-06-2013, 02:22 AMKarahSomeone's butt-hurt. My post says anything and everything valid to this topic, to the point you could even close it, with an enough said statement. There is no possible valid argument you could conceivably have against anything I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayward
I have less than zero tolerance for anyone gimping themselves. For any reason. You can play the RL card. I attend medical school full time. I have 2 part time jobs. I only play X hours a week, maybe 12? and more on weekends, obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalWeapon
You can be lazy, I'm one of the laziest people on XI I can possibly think of, nothing wrong with that. But if you're not going to put forth the MINIMAL effort to better yourself, then stop complaining about it. -
06-06-2013, 02:32 AMNumquam
People that can't help themselves should go play a console game.
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06-06-2013, 02:51 AMMirage
Yeah, like for example FFXI!
I attend two medical schools and have three full time jobs. Way to be casual, Karah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karah
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06-06-2013, 03:07 AMYinnythActually, Karah raised a topic which is new to this thread: the idea that PLD might not even be of use in Delve in a few months. It has indeed been a trend in other events because PLD keeps us safe so we can get away with more mistakes when we're less familiar with the content. But as we learn more, we find ways to get by without a pure tank and put extra damage in the PLD's slot to finish faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayward
Now, I'm not sure that I agree with Karah's assessment of the situation, mind you. Some of those NMs are just complete bruisers. But hey, maybe we haven't found all of their gimmicks yet. -
06-06-2013, 03:17 AMRadd
So what Karah is saying is that, as most other events, PLD will become essentially "useless" as time goes on... So logic would tell me that the shields should be even quicker or easier to get if that is the case?
In the future, people would have to suffer grinding these shields out, and might not even attend the events... so why bother keeping both of these shields really annoying to get in the mean time? It sounds like people just want other people to suffer or waste time just because they "did it too." Insanity. -
06-06-2013, 03:32 AMKarahHonestly, how hard is it to make an Aegis? a Month? 2 months? 2 hours a day, i mean really, it's childsplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
I will give it up that Ochain, is by and large possibly the most soul-crushing (lol) thing in the game right now... VNM color changes are obnoxious to the 15th degree. But, that's another (actually SEVERAL) other threads...