Aegis > RUN

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Originally Posted by saevel

RUN is not a tank, will never be a tank, and was never a tank. Those who think it is or will be don't have the slightest clue what a tank is or what's involved with being one.

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who told you that?

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Originally Posted by saevel

RUN is not a tank, will never be a tank, and was never a tank. Those who think it is or will be don't have the slightest clue what a tank is or what's involved with being one.

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While I agree that RUN cannot tank in it's current condition, it WAS meant to be a tank, it was introduced as such by SE.

EDIT:
1. Not sure if trolling.
2. Please, for the love of Altana and her five albino children, DO NOT make RUN another DWer or Sword job.
3. RUN is a very unaesthetic job. Available armor looks bad.

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Originally Posted by Volarione

What are you smoking vivi?

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Coffeecake muffin crumbs (+1) of course.

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Originally Posted by Kojo

While I agree that RUN cannot tank in it's current condition, it WAS meant to be a tank, it was introduced as such by SE.

EDIT:
1. Not sure if trolling.
2. Please, for the love of Altana and her five albino children, DO NOT make RUN another DWer or Sword job.
3. RUN is a very unaesthetic job. Available armor looks bad.

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No, that's another one of those misunderstandings people have. SE never said anything about RUN holding hate, they just mentioned that it would take reduced elemental damage. SE doesn't know what a tank is.

A tanks' job is the following
#1 Hold Hate off squishy back liners
#2 Kill Target as quick as feasible
#3 Reducing damage to conserve healer resources

Prior to the term "tank" being used it was known as "meat shield" in D&D and then Everquest. It was a heavy armor wearing melee that would keep the target monster busy and away from the soft squishy cloth wearing mages. SE (and the intellectually challenged) somehow confuse a melee with defense properties for a "tank".

Now according to the above universal tanking requirements, as set forth ages ago by the first party orientated game, RUN does not fit any of those. their sole defensive ability is they can get high magic evasion towards one element of magic while still being vulnerable to the other seven. Congrats your worse then an evasion stacking NIN tanking Byakko in 2005.

I love how your comparing it to PLD, I mean it's so far off being a main tank atm that a DRK with an Apoc is a better tank atm.

Either way, until AF,emp gear, merits are added to RUN it's hard to say it'll never be a tank.

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Either way, until AF,emp gear, merits are added to RUN it's hard to say it'll never be a tank.

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You can give then Enmity +100 and they still wouldn't be a "tank". The job is fundamentally borked and would need a major PUP & SCH level redesign to be that. Not saying that SE can't go back to the drawing board, they did twice already, but if they did whatever came out would only vaguely resemble what we have now. That's why I mentioned turning them into a non-elemental type melee. There are fights they would end up "tanking" so to speak if only because they would be dealing so much more damage then anyone else the monster would have no choice but to pay attention to them. Previously entire strats were build around DRK's using twilight scyth to bypass -PDT and other damage restrictions, that's a big enough niche for a job like RUN to fit right into. Hell give them a JA based move similar to formless strikes but without the damage penalty. Have them deal non-physical damage and every-time they take magic damage have it act like misery on WHM, fill up a buffer that can then be deplete in a big attack.

People keep on saying how RUN can only mitigate damage from 1 element at a time...

... which is wrong of course.

#1 barspell: Cast by yourself if solo, or by a whm if in a party. (yes, every party member can get this too).

#2 Build up 3 runes of a different element and use Valiance or Vallation. (Valliance also helps out the rest of the party, but you need the RUN there to use it).

#3 Build up 3 more runes of a third element.

#4 If a spell comes in of one of the other elements, hit one for all.

#5 If mob uses Chainspell, hit Elemental Sforzo (RUN is the best job for tanking chainspell for this reason alone... if it can get/hold hate, which shouldn't be too hard when you pop Ele Sforzo anyway).

Not just 1 element.

Edit: Oh not to mention that we only need 14% -MDT in gear to cap MDT when using Shell V on ourselves with Embolden. (even less if it stacks with effects of Sheltered ring)

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

People keep on saying how RUN can only mitigate damage from 1 element at a time...

... which is wrong of course.

#1 barspell: Cast by yourself if solo, or by a whm if in a party. (yes, every party member can get this too).

#2 Build up 3 runes of a different element and use Valiance or Vallation. (Valliance also helps out the rest of the party, but you need the RUN there to use it).

#3 Build up 3 more runes of a third element.

#4 If a spell comes in of one of the other elements, hit one for all.

#5 If mob uses Chainspell, hit Elemental Sforzo (RUN is the best job for tanking chainspell for this reason alone... if it can get/hold hate, which shouldn't be too hard when you pop Ele Sforzo anyway).

Not just 1 element.

Edit: Oh not to mention that we only need 14% -MDT in gear to cap MDT when using Shell V on ourselves with Embolden. (even less if it stacks with effects of Sheltered ring)

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Okay effectively mitigate damage from 1 element at a time. Hell your own example shows how RUN could poorly reduce the damage of up to 4 types of magic for 3/5 minutes. Someone mentioned Abyssea earlier and honestly that's the only place where RUN can tank based on what it currently has as native defensive capabilities. Yay a tank for 3 year old content...

Nothing a RUN currently has to offer is of any value as a tank, dd, or support when compared to other jobs filling those roles.

It's a fun job but that sure as hell doesn't make it magically work at what we were told it was going to do. The job is lacking sorely and if it was supposed to be a magical tank it sure as hell should be more useful than an Aegis PLD (I'm not even talking full time -87.5% MDT for a given element).

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

SCH and DNC were released after ToAU, yet their mythics involve the same method of obtainment as every other job. Why should one believe that RUN and GEO will get their own unique 6-month-long questline to obtain a weapon which will be replaced by whatever comes after delve?

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While you are correct that dnc and sch were added after the release of ToAU, they were released and established well prior to the release of Mythic weapons. As I said, this is the first ever example of a new r/m/e weapon being added to those that existed from the very beginning. Anything is possible.

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Originally Posted by Tesahade

Stop sayin this i posted a link showin that SE calls them Mythics because they are the things of myth and legend as they are part of Balranh's collection. Heres the link again its in the frist 5 lines http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics...20/detail.html

Mythic does not describe the weapon itself but specificly its origin

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Old words from an old era and an old producer. If Tanaka was still in charge, this might be a valid argument. However, if there's anything the past couple months should have taught you, it's that the policies laid down by Tanaka, have little to no influence whatsoever on what Matsui does with the game.

And in the end, they could come out with a completely new kind of weapon, with a completely new kind of quest and give it only to RUN and GEO and call it a mythic, and you know what? At that point it doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else wants to call it. If SE says it's a mythic, then that will be exactly what is it.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

People keep on saying how RUN can only mitigate damage from 1 element at a time...

... which is wrong of course.

#1 barspell: Cast by yourself if solo, or by a whm if in a party. (yes, every party member can get this too).

#2 Build up 3 runes of a different element and use Valiance or Vallation. (Valliance also helps out the rest of the party, but you need the RUN there to use it).

#3 Build up 3 more runes of a third element.

#4 If a spell comes in of one of the other elements, hit one for all.

#5 If mob uses Chainspell, hit Elemental Sforzo (RUN is the best job for tanking chainspell for this reason alone... if it can get/hold hate, which shouldn't be too hard when you pop Ele Sforzo anyway).

Not just 1 element.

Edit: Oh not to mention that we only need 14% -MDT in gear to cap MDT when using Shell V on ourselves with Embolden. (even less if it stacks with effects of Sheltered ring)

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They say that because magic evasion is fairly lacking. The boost to the strength of runes was a big help, but the truth is that enemies have enough magic accuracy to punch a hole through RUN's magic evasion even if they have the same barspell and runes all stacked together. Yes, a runefencer could go for slight resistance to several elements instead of large resistance to one. Heck, you could even put up 3 different runes and keep vallation/valiance up on yourself to take 15% less damage (multiplied, not added to MDT). Then every 3 minutes, you could also absorb the damage from a spell by using liement.

Aegis PLD takes 1/8 normal magic damage from any element all the time without fussing with runes or responding to changing battle conditions. Yes, a RUN could put up 3 runes, vallation, then put up 3 different runes, but that would take them a minute to do while you're getting hammered by amnesia, paralyze, sleep, and elemental damage that you don't have your runes up for yet. Plus, if you're not stacking your barspell and runes together, you're only going to get about 150 m.eva for each element. Your resist rate will be pretty low. Aegis works 100% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

I love how your comparing it to PLD, I mean it's so far off being a main tank atm that a DRK with an Apoc is a better tank atm.

Either way, until AF,emp gear, merits are added to RUN it's hard to say it'll never be a tank.

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Having to wait until AF(1,2,3) and merits to even attempt to make the job tank-worthy is a losing proposition.

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Originally Posted by saevel

You can give then Enmity +100 and they still wouldn't be a "tank". The job is fundamentally borked and would need a major PUP & SCH level redesign to be that. Not saying that SE can't go back to the drawing board, they did twice already, but if they did whatever came out would only vaguely resemble what we have now. That's why I mentioned turning them into a non-elemental type melee. There are fights they would end up "tanking" so to speak if only because they would be dealing so much more damage then anyone else the monster would have no choice but to pay attention to them. Previously entire strats were build around DRK's using twilight scyth to bypass -PDT and other damage restrictions, that's a big enough niche for a job like RUN to fit right into.

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I'd rather SE fix RUN over clinging to SE's poorly-worded description. There's no MMO player out there that would look at RUN's description and not think the job is intended to be a tank; a tank with a "takes less damage from magic" gimmick (trust me, it certainly isn't a new concept).

As an aside, the fact they're focusing so much on Geomancer is very much cause for concern, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Okay effectively mitigate damage from 1 element at a time. Hell your own example shows how RUN could poorly reduce the damage of up to 4 types of magic for 3/5 minutes. Someone mentioned Abyssea earlier and honestly that's the only place where RUN can tank based on what it currently has as native defensive capabilities. Yay a tank for 3 year old content...

Nothing a RUN currently has to offer is of any value as a tank, dd, or support when compared to other jobs filling those roles.

It's a fun job but that sure as hell doesn't make it magically work at what we were told it was going to do. The job is lacking sorely and if it was supposed to be a magical tank it sure as hell should be more useful than an Aegis PLD (I'm not even talking full time -87.5% MDT for a given element).

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It works fine to tank any level 99 content, not just abyssea. It also deals a lot more damage while doing so than an Aegis PLD. Also for that great -MDT, a PLD needs 23% -MDT from gear other than the shield. A RUN only needs -14%. So you can cap it with 2 rings.

If once we get merits, AF, relic and empy gear we're still completely useless to tank in SoA, then SE has made terrible errors, but until then I'll hold out hope.

Also, an Aegis (at today's prices) costs at least 130mil to get to 99. I'm pretty sure that after spending 130 mil on RUN, it would be much better.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

It works fine to tank any level 99 content, not just abyssea. It also deals a lot more damage while doing so than an Aegis PLD. Also for that great -MDT, a PLD needs 23% -MDT from gear other than the shield. A RUN only needs -14%. So you can cap it with 2 rings.

If once we get merits, AF, relic and empy gear we're still completely useless to tank in SoA, then SE has made terrible errors, but until then I'll hold out hope.

Also, an Aegis (at today's prices) costs at least 130mil to get to 99. I'm pretty sure that after spending 130 mil on RUN, it would be much better.

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Now you're just being obtuse...Working fine on easy level 99 content is pointless, why should I go on RUN when I could go on "insert DD job" instead and kill X faster. Take RUN to tank Tojil let me know how that works out... That's a NM that Aegis PLD tanks.

AF, Relic, and Emp gear would have to be some of the most broken equipment ever created to bring RUN up to what it was pitched as being.

You could have Rank 15 Delve (currently the only way to blow gil kinda on RUN) gear for RUN and you know what that does? It makes it a less weak DD, unimproved support, and still isn't tanking better than a PLD because even if you opted for evasion path giving you essentially +120 evasion you won't be evading enough to negate the physical damage to the degree ochain or aegis does.

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Originally Posted by saevel

No, that's another one of those misunderstandings people have. SE never said anything about RUN holding hate, they just mentioned that it would take reduced elemental damage. SE doesn't know what a tank is.

A tanks' job is the following
#1 Hold Hate off squishy back liners
#2 Kill Target as quick as feasible
#3 Reducing damage to conserve healer resources

Prior to the term "tank" being used it was known as "meat shield" in D&D and then Everquest. It was a heavy armor wearing melee that would keep the target monster busy and away from the soft squishy cloth wearing mages. SE (and the intellectually challenged) somehow confuse a melee with defense properties for a "tank".

Now according to the above universal tanking requirements, as set forth ages ago by the first party orientated game, RUN does not fit any of those. their sole defensive ability is they can get high magic evasion towards one element of magic while still being vulnerable to the other seven. Congrats your worse then an evasion stacking NIN tanking Byakko in 2005.

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SE has a way of not explicitly saying things like "This is Rune Fencer, it's a tank class." but the way its was worded and compared to PLD and NIN on the official website pretty much screams "Tank job" to anyone who didn't spend their teen years huffing paint fumes. This is not D&D, nor is it Everquest, the mechanics are different in every game and your little "SE doesn't know what a tank is" when they are the company who designed the game, it comes off as arrogant.

RUN and GEO aren't yet complete...

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Now you're just being obtuse...Working fine on easy level 99 content is pointless, why should I go on RUN when I could go on "insert DD job" instead and kill X faster. Take RUN to tank Tojil let me know how that works out... That's a NM that Aegis PLD tanks.

AF, Relic, and Emp gear would have to be some of the most broken equipment ever created to bring RUN up to what it was pitched as being.

You could have Rank 15 Delve (currently the only way to blow gil kinda on RUN) gear for RUN and you know what that does? It makes it a less weak DD, unimproved support, and still isn't tanking better than a PLD because even if you opted for evasion path giving you essentially +120 evasion you won't be evading enough to negate the physical damage to the degree ochain or aegis does.

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This is still the most stupid argument ever.

To put this argument into comparison, it's the same as saying "Ukon War > non-r/m/e/d <insert DD job here>"

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

This is still the most stupid argument ever.

To put this argument into comparison, it's the same as saying "Ukon War > non-r/m/e/d <insert DD job here>"

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You mean the same argument made for years about PLD not being a needed job? They regained a place while niche it's still more than RUN has now.

What exactly does RUN have that's unique and can't be replaced by another job?

As Duelle mentioned GEO (at least publicly) is getting much more polishing than RUN. The sad part about that is even without AF/Relic/Emp/Mythic GEO has already gained a position in small man and high end game events and it's incomplete.

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Originally Posted by saevel

No, that's another one of those misunderstandings people have. SE never said anything about RUN holding hate, they just mentioned that it would take reduced elemental damage. SE doesn't know what a tank is.

A tanks' job is the following
#1 Hold Hate off squishy back liners
#2 Kill Target as quick as feasible
#3 Reducing damage to conserve healer resources

Prior to the term "tank" being used it was known as "meat shield" in D&D and then Everquest. It was a heavy armor wearing melee that would keep the target monster busy and away from the soft squishy cloth wearing mages. SE (and the intellectually challenged) somehow confuse a melee with defense properties for a "tank".

Now according to the above universal tanking requirements, as set forth ages ago by the first party orientated game, RUN does not fit any of those. their sole defensive ability is they can get high magic evasion towards one element of magic while still being vulnerable to the other seven. Congrats your worse then an evasion stacking NIN tanking Byakko in 2005.

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I gotta take issue with your definition of a Tank, aka meatshield. Your #1 is absolutely right, spot on, but incomplete, it's #2 where we have the issues big issues, #3 is a given.

#1 is incomplete in that the job of a tank is to hold hate off EVERYONE, not just the squishy backliners, part of that is because the players changed who those backliners are. But #2, the tank is not the killer in a party (unless your pt is just you and a healer), the DD/nukers/range attackers are. Of course, this is where I talk about the change in backliners; old partys the backliners usually included a nuker or a ranger or more than 1 but these days the backline is usually just healer(s) and/or support jobs because the players have shifted DD almost solely on to melee DD, and this has played holy hell with tanking due to the way enmity is calculated. If you are a blm or rng these days and you can get partys then it's probably good friends unless there is a proc issue, it's just that major of a change. That's why we ended up with EVA tanks a few years ago in the 1st place, pld-and to some extent nins-simply couldn't do enough to hold hate in the face of the Zerg jobs. #3 is just obvious, if you are one less guy the healer has to work on the pt will just move along that much smoother.

But I don't think the flaws are solely in the job-although rune being rolled out without viable end-game gear and merits means we are at least temporarily flawed-but in the hate system itself. Now, if my count is right we haven't had the 3 adjustments to the hate system that were mentioned, and if what has been rolled out so far is any indication even 3 aren't going to make tanking any more viable as a strat, they'll need more. I don't claim to know the answer, the only possibility I can see is to uncap hate on pld, nin and rune, but then the people who have grown to like eva tanks-playing or playing with-will probably scream bloody murder ("I built this bleeping eva set and now it's useless <insert ragequit rant here>"), and I'm not even sure that will work considering our current damage output.

As to your DW comments earlier, that is NOT the only viable possibility. Making GS our primary weapon is fine IF SE does something to beef our numbers with it OR introduces Rune only GS, or rune only grips that do major special things. That IS a viable option, and considering their current plans of fixing most inherrent flaws through gear rather than job fixes (see the "fix pets" threads as an example), it may well be the way they choose to go. Mind you, I don't agree with fixing job flaws that are native with gear that has to be acquired (a job SHOULD be able to be viable just on the build of the job), gear should just be a nice addition to a good base platform.

All that being said, rune is flawed as a tank, even though that was SE's expressed intent in the design phase for us. We have 1 tool for major hate, Flash. Pld has cures, cover, FLASH, etc. while we have Regens and refresh, which simply don't generate much. Nin has Yonin and shadows (ok, that's an enmity decay thing, still a factor) and a higher DPS-good ones can still eva tank, we have Blink and spikes. SJ abilities don't count, especially since any job in the game can get those, so theoretically a brd/war could tank as well as rune/war, and that would hold hate what, 3 seconds at the outside? So SE has some work to do if thier job concept is to see fruition.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

All that being said, rune is flawed as a tank, even though that was SE's expressed intent in the design phase for us. We have 1 tool for major hate, Flash.

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I agree with most of the points you raised in your post besides the one I just quoted. Valiance, one for all, and foil all build decent amounts of hate. In addition to this, runes can be used for a steady stream of enmity if you're dealing with an enemy you just can't smack hard enough to keep his attention.

While it's true RUN could use something more than just this, I do hope they take a slightly less traditional route when attempting to fix it. Not that I would complain to have more straightforward hate tools, but it would be more interesting to have unique abilities such as an AoE buff RUN could give which siphons all hate generated by party members for 10 seconds directly to the RUN.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

I agree with most of the points you raised in your post besides the one I just quoted. Valiance, one for all, and foil all build decent amounts of hate. In addition to this, runes can be used for a steady stream of enmity if you're dealing with an enemy you just can't smack hard enough to keep his attention.

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Not to mention how useful Lunge can be vs an invincible mob, or 1 with very high -PDT.

Run's problems with Multi element caster mobs, SE how do you plan on dealing with this?? Every runs stomach drops when he see the mob move from one -aga IV to a different element -aga IV. SP IMO is worthless, it doesn't ever save my ass, the mob is mixing it up he just doesn't sit there and cast magic he's also smacking you in the face. Aegis is so great because with pld invincibility SP together they only will take 1/8 damage from magic attacks. There is nothing run can do to get this much damage mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

I gotta take issue with your definition of a Tank, aka meatshield. Your #1 is absolutely right, spot on, but incomplete, it's #2 where we have the issues big issues, #3 is a given.

#1 is incomplete in that the job of a tank is to hold hate off EVERYONE, not just the squishy backliners, part of that is because the players changed who those backliners are. But #2, the tank is not the killer in a party (unless your pt is just you and a healer), the DD/nukers/range attackers are. Of course, this is where I talk about the change in backliners; old partys the backliners usually included a nuker or a ranger or more than 1 but these days the backline is usually just healer(s) and/or support jobs because the players have shifted DD almost solely on to melee DD, and this has played holy hell with tanking due to the way enmity is calculated. If you are a blm or rng these days and you can get partys then it's probably good friends unless there is a proc issue, it's just that major of a change. That's why we ended up with EVA tanks a few years ago in the 1st place, pld-and to some extent nins-simply couldn't do enough to hold hate in the face of the Zerg jobs. #3 is just obvious, if you are one less guy the healer has to work on the pt will just move along that much smoother.

But I don't think the flaws are solely in the job-although rune being rolled out without viable end-game gear and merits means we are at least temporarily flawed-but in the hate system itself. Now, if my count is right we haven't had the 3 adjustments to the hate system that were mentioned, and if what has been rolled out so far is any indication even 3 aren't going to make tanking any more viable as a strat, they'll need more. I don't claim to know the answer, the only possibility I can see is to uncap hate on pld, nin and rune, but then the people who have grown to like eva tanks-playing or playing with-will probably scream bloody murder ("I built this bleeping eva set and now it's useless <insert ragequit rant here>"), and I'm not even sure that will work considering our current damage output.

As to your DW comments earlier, that is NOT the only viable possibility. Making GS our primary weapon is fine IF SE does something to beef our numbers with it OR introduces Rune only GS, or rune only grips that do major special things. That IS a viable option, and considering their current plans of fixing most inherrent flaws through gear rather than job fixes (see the "fix pets" threads as an example), it may well be the way they choose to go. Mind you, I don't agree with fixing job flaws that are native with gear that has to be acquired (a job SHOULD be able to be viable just on the build of the job), gear should just be a nice addition to a good base platform.

All that being said, rune is flawed as a tank, even though that was SE's expressed intent in the design phase for us. We have 1 tool for major hate, Flash. Pld has cures, cover, FLASH, etc. while we have Regens and refresh, which simply don't generate much. Nin has Yonin and shadows (ok, that's an enmity decay thing, still a factor) and a higher DPS-good ones can still eva tank, we have Blink and spikes. SJ abilities don't count, especially since any job in the game can get those, so theoretically a brd/war could tank as well as rune/war, and that would hold hate what, 3 seconds at the outside? So SE has some work to do if thier job concept is to see fruition.

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Incorrect, very very incorrect.

Tanks do not hold hate off front line melee's, they can't. Front line DPS will always spike enmity during their damage routines and then themselves take damage, that is why front liners tend to wear heavier armor then back liners. The difference is that front line DPS won't hold hate all the time (at least in a properly balanced MMO). They can take a few hits and still survive, the paper thin mages on the other hand are easily obliterated. You can lose DPS's and still continue the fight, you can't lose the support crew without a wipe happening. The primary job of the tank is to keep the monsters attention off the support crew, the melee's must learn to fend for themselves.

#2 is exactly right. The sooner a monster is dead the less chance it has of wiping you, in many MMO's there is a timer on the fight and once that timer expires you lose. Killing is a secondary role though and that's why the word "feasible" was used instead of "as soon as possible". Melee's kill the target, the tank just contributes as much as they can while still keeping it off the mages. In FFXI those two goals end up being the same due to the broke enmity system (damage = hate).

The reason #3 is behind the other two is that a brick wall tank taking 0 damage is absolutely useless if the healer is still at near full MP. #3 does not need to be done to the fullest, only to the extend that the healers resources are not depleted before the fight is finished, faster you finish the fight the less chance of them running out.

SE's concept of RUN is flawed, pure and simple. It doesn't reduce damage anymore then any heavy DD job, and that's a fact nobody can argue. Lots of PDT/MDT gear exists in this game, and melee can strap it on and suddenly their getting hit for half the damage they were before. That makes RUN's "magic defenses" utterly useless for actual strategy.

So you have a light armor low attack job wielding a weapon that requires lots of attack to be effective, so their immediately disqualified as a melee. They can't hold hate, at all, due to FFXI's enmity system being entirely balanced around damage, which as previously stated they suck at doing. Finally their damage mitigation capabilities also suck and their quickly flattened by anything remotely threatening. Seriously "tanking" old content while your dual box a WHM isn't impressive, hell my RDM can do that with ease. Hold one or two delve NM's during a standard plasm run, or the minions spawned by high tier voidwatch NMs, then come back and tell us about your success. After all the #1 "tank" job in the game is only used for that, and if we're not using the #1 tank job for tanking then why in the hell would we use the #5 "tank" job.

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

Run's problems with Multi element caster mobs, SE how do you plan on dealing with this?? Every runs stomach drops when he see the mob move from one -aga IV to a different element -aga IV. SP IMO is worthless, it doesn't ever save my ass, the mob is mixing it up he just doesn't sit there and cast magic he's also smacking you in the face. Aegis is so great because with pld invincibility SP together they only will take 1/8 damage from magic attacks. There is nothing run can do to get this much damage mitigation.

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I would love if they gave RUN a spell that gives them a short-term, massive MDB boost. Just 10 seconds of MDB+100. Or better yet, a spell they cast on the mob which halves the magic damage they do for 5-10 seconds. Would really help to deal with that "oh crap, he's casting something I don't have runes up for right now" moment.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

I would love if they gave RUN a spell that gives them a short-term, massive MDB boost. Just 10 seconds of MDB+100. Or better yet, a spell they cast on the mob which halves the magic damage they do for 5-10 seconds. Would really help to deal with that "oh crap, he's casting something I don't have runes up for right now" moment.

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I agree run needs new original magic, for one run should have reflect, its been in the dats for years. Make's me wonder what did SE design run for? is it to tank the new Adoulin context, and more specifically tank during delve runs. Afterall, that's when SE decided to release the job. I find it ironic that run was release with the adoulin context and yet the new tank job cant survive and hold those nms. SE if your going to make a tank job that almost completely ignores the physical side along with paper bag defense, then it needs to gain its strength when the mobs cast magic. Run at the very least should be a walking breathing human aegis shield.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

I agree run needs new original magic, for one run should have reflect, its been in the dats for years. Make's me wonder what did SE design run for?

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The difficulty is that we usually wind up playing things in ways that SE never really designed them for. Best laid plans, or some junk like that.

Ninja was never intended to be a tank, it was supposed to be subtle, low enmity, survivable damage and enfeebles. Best thing about pup? Its ability to deaggro stuff. Embrava and perfect defense conquered the world and SE eventually had to put their foot down and say "look guys, we never really thought these things would be used to defeat every event ever to the point that they're mandatory, so... we're taking them down a notch."

So it's less a matter of what SE intends RUN to be, and more a matter of what we can get RUN to do. Which right now... isn't that much. I do enjoy playing it though, I must admit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

So it's less a matter of what SE intends RUN to be, and more a matter of what we can get RUN to do. Which right now... isn't that much. I do enjoy playing it though, I must admit.

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I enjoy playing it to, of course I would love to see these types of shouts "Plasm farming, 17/18 Tank, Can I have it, Run or Pld, Please send tell" and I know this is way off from reality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

I agree run needs new original magic, for one run should have reflect, its been in the dats for years.

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The main problem with reflect for RUN, is it's primary use right now is vs mobs that only cast 1 element. Generally mobs that only cast 1 element are very strong to, or even absorb that 1 element, making reflect useless. To be worthwhile, it would have to be a flash-type buff. And by that I mean, 0.5 seconds casting time, 5-10 seconds duration, self-target, high enmity. Main use would be to reflect a spell that you're un-prepared for (wrong runes, wrong ward, OFA not up etc.

It's possible that they go down the route of SCH for AF1, and we do get a unique spell instead of a weapon/ammo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

Make's me wonder what did SE design run for? is it to tank the new Adoulin context, and more specifically tank during delve runs. Afterall, that's when SE decided to release the job. I find it ironic that run was release with the adoulin context and yet the new tank job cant survive and hold those nms. SE if your going to make a tank job that almost completely ignores the physical side along with paper bag defense, then it needs to gain its strength when the mobs cast magic. Run at the very least should be a walking breathing human aegis shield.

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The trouble that I have with everyone comparing run to an Aeigis PLD... is that Aegis is a relic.

Can you imagine how p155ed off every aegis owner would be if RUN stepped onto the scene, no merits, no AF/relic/empy gear, no mythic/relic/empy weapon, and was on par with an aegis PLD for tanking magical NMs.

What RUN needs to get a niche tanking role, is more mobs like the ACP boss which hit like a truck, but melee attacks were considered magical damage. As I recall, they were AOE too. That would be brilliant as far as I can see, RUN would be just about the only job capable of getting close to the mob. What I don't remember is whether it had an element to it's attacks. This would obviously be preferable for RUN.

Alternatively, mobs with low damage high-speed attacks, but high en-spell damage. Obviously Aegis would also be good for this, but RUN would be an alternative option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

The trouble that I have with everyone comparing run to an Aeigis PLD... is that Aegis is a relic.

Can you imagine how p155ed off every aegis owner would be if RUN stepped onto the scene, no merits, no AF/relic/empy gear, no mythic/relic/empy weapon, and was on par with an aegis PLD for tanking magical NMs.

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Ragnarok is a relic too, and RUN already gets access to something which puts them on par with Ragnarok DDs. But if that's what it takes to get RUN up to where it's competitive with Aegis PLD, sure, let's give RUN a relic grip which is as amazing as Aegis is. I'd be ok with putting the same effort into my RUN to make it more effective. It's just that there's no such path available currently.

I'm not reading the rest of this thread (stopped 5-6 posts in).

I'm so, so terribly sorry your new job without it's JSE and merits isn't as good as a fully geared job with a RELIC item.

Get real, guys.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

The trouble that I have with everyone comparing run to an Aeigis PLD... is that Aegis is a relic.

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The thing is it takes Aegis for a PLD to call itself a good tank against magical damage or rather a "magical tank" you know what RUN was pitched to be. On top of not only mitigating a good amount of magical damage the fact that the shield is a size 5 with 60-70% block rate goes pretty far in reducing all physical damage taken something RUN can't do.

I agree that we needed ACP boss type mobs, though I think that was non-elemental damage. Even if we're both remembering the mechanics incorrectly RUN needed a mob that deals elemental magic damage and not non-elemental when meleeing to be worth anything.

It's like SE has no communication between the job design team and the end game design team which is odd considering FFXI is run by a skeleton crew atm and those design decisions were likely made by some of the same people. I mean who came up with Gabbrath family and decided it's melee would be physical damage instead of fire element magic damage? Almost as though SE wanted RUN to fail as a magical tank.

Maybe we're the naive ones expecting RUN to be worth anything as a tank without it's mythic weapon since it won't be getting a relic or emp weapon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sfchakan

I'm not reading the rest of this thread (stopped 5-6 posts in).

I'm so, so terribly sorry your new job without it's JSE and merits isn't as good as a fully geared job with a RELIC item.

Get real, guys.

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It's not as good as any job at any role... Aegis PLD was used because that's what you look at when you need a tank that can eat a lot of magical damage and RUN was pitched as a magical tank.

GEO says hi. No Artifact/Relic/Emp/Mythic and already has places in small and large man groups. Maybe you should have actually read the whole thread as this has been pointed out already.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sfchakan

I'm not reading the rest of this thread (stopped 5-6 posts in).

I'm so, so terribly sorry your new job without it's JSE and merits isn't as good as a fully geared job with a RELIC item.

Get real, guys.

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Since you only read 5 posts your ignorance might be excused.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zagen

GEO says hi. No Artifact/Relic/Emp/Mythic and already has places in small and large man groups. Maybe you should have actually read the whole thread as this has been pointed out already.

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This is the only thing bugging me right now about RUN. GEO can do it's job successfully in and out of Adoulin, and even on the hardest of delve mobs. Yet GEO is getting lots of info about forthcoming updates to fix it. The good news is that the JPs are also complaining about RUN's inability to tank anything in Adoulin, so there's a good chance of a fix in the works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

This is the only thing bugging me right now about RUN. GEO can do it's job successfully in and out of Adoulin, and even on the hardest of delve mobs. Yet GEO is getting lots of info about forthcoming updates to fix it. The good news is that the JPs are also complaining about RUN's inability to tank anything in Adoulin, so there's a good chance of a fix in the works.

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There is literally nothing SE could do to RUN in it's current form that would allow it to "tank" anything. They would have to redesign the job in a way similar to what they did PUP and to a lessor extent SCH. SE needs to fundamentally redesign large portions of the job in order for it to be considered for use in any current content. Soloing level 75 NM's doesn't count as current content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saevel

There is literally nothing SE could do to RUN in it's current form that would allow it to "tank" anything. They would have to redesign the job in a way similar to what they did PUP and to a lessor extent SCH. SE needs to fundamentally redesign large portions of the job in order for it to be considered for use in any current content. Soloing level 75 NM's doesn't count as current content.

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Complete BS. The only hard part is to come up with something that doesn't make it brokenly good, instead of brokenly bad.

Perhaps a Counterstance-like ability, but for parrying. +15% Parry rate per active Rune, at the expense of not getting en-spell damage whilst the ability is active.

Heck, even giving it Perfect Parry would go a fair way to helping maintaining buffs. Though to rely on it's own enhancing magic to reduce damage, it either needs severe fast cast, severe Conserve MP, native auto-refresh, A+ Enhancing Magic, or a combination or all of them.

No doubt among the Empy gear and accessories it will get access to some pieces with refresh on them, that are hopefully useful to full-time, or at least situationally useful to full-time. So that may help to alleviate MP issues when trying to full-time flash, foil, phalanx, aquaveil and maybe regen or an occasional stoneskin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings geomancers!

To get a little more specific and build on what Okipuit mentioned previously, in the next version update we will be performing the below adjustments to geomancer in addition to adding a merit point category.

• Shortening of the casting time for geomancy spells (indi and geo)
• Addition of the job trait “Clear Mind”
• Addition of the job trait “Max MP Boost”
• Adjustment to the level in which the “Conserve MP” job trait is learned
• Addition of the spells “Sleep” and “Sleep II”
  *To go along with the addition of Sleep and Sleep II enfeebling skill will also be added.

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Geo is getting 2 new JTs, Conserve MP earlier, which might mean higher tiers of it, shorter casing times for 2/3rds of it's spells, 2 new spells, and an entire new magic skill. And it is already useful in SoA events.

RUN got a bit more enmity on Foil. And is still not yet useful in SoA events.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Geo is getting 2 new JTs, Conserve MP earlier, which might mean higher tiers of it, shorter casing times for 2/3rds of it's spells, 2 new spells, and an entire new magic skill. And it is already useful in SoA events.

RUN got a bit more enmity on Foil. And is still not yet useful in SoA events.

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Last update was more focused on fixing RUN, and GEO got hardly anything. Source:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Version-Update

Quote:

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• Geomancer
  http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/at...235267&thumb=1
  • The potency of geomancy spells that increase and reduce accuracy, magic accuracy, evasion, and magic evasion have been adjusted.

• Rune Fencer
  http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/at...235288&thumb=1
  • The amount by which Rune Enchantment increases elemental resistances has been raised.
  • The following abilities have undergone recast time and effect duration adjustments:
    • Vallation
      Recast time has been reduced from five minutes to three.
      Effect duration has been reduced from three minutes to two.
      　
    • Pflug
      Recast time has been reduced from five minutes to three.
      Effect duration has been reduced from three minutes to two.
      
      　
    • Valiance
      Recast time has been reduced from ten minutes to five.
      　
    • One For All
      Recast time has been reduced from ten minutes to five.
    • Liement
      Recast time has been reduced from ten minutes to three.
      Effect duration has been reduced from one minute to ten seconds.

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While I agree that RUN could use some more help than GEO right now, it's really GEO's turn. Besides, both jobs are getting merits and AF next update, so it's not like RUN is getting nothing.

I do hope that they upload the merit categories on the test server for RUN so we can try them out beforehand - hopefully it's both the G1 and G2's, but I can see it only being the G1's for the time being - usually the G2's come out later and since the relic +2 is now tied in with merit category abilities I can see that happening.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sfchakan

I'm not reading the rest of this thread (stopped 5-6 posts in).

I'm so, so terribly sorry your new job without it's JSE and merits isn't as good as a fully geared job with a RELIC item.

Get real, guys.

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then you probably haven't been able to tell that almost all remarks have been prefaced with things like "not knowing what our merits or JSE will bring..." Only 1 or 2 people have been speaking like they are some kind of authority on the complete job and they are generally being shot down, because noone can be an authority in the absence of the facts-unless they have inside info, like a dev... HOWEVER, what we all do know, we won't get a relic at all and it looks like we won't get an empy either; mythic weapon-well people are hanging on a statement to a 3rd party when the job was 1st announced, but bsts were promissed TH gear and then told we weren't so I for one am not counting on that until I see it.

If anything this thread is more about pointing out design flaws that we hope will be addressed since the job is still in the development stage-and that many should not be resolved with merits or gear but job tweaks themselves. It is also to point out the level this job needs to be raised to by the new content if it is to be an anti-magic version of its paladin counterpart (if pld was meant to be a counterpart, seems likely the way they mirrored spell lists and the like)-not likely considering the concentration on physical damage amongst the new prey, also not likely since this is a comparrison to a job with gear we will not be given a counterpart to per SE's relic comments. All in all it amounts to 2 words, "DO SOMETHING"!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Last update was more focused on fixing RUN, and GEO got hardly anything. Source:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Version-Update

[/LIST][/LIST][/LIST]While I agree that RUN could use some more help than GEO right now, it's really GEO's turn. Besides, both jobs are getting merits and AF next update, so it's not like RUN is getting nothing.

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RUN's updates were adjustments to what it already had. Geo is getting completely new stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

RUN's updates were adjustments to what it already had. Geo is getting completely new stuff.

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Absolutely right about that, but they still need to fix the stuff will already have. Im so disgusted at liement ward, now Im wishing they change it back to 10 minutes recast with 45 sec duration at least it was usable. Embolden there's alot to say about this, mainly its luckluster the penalty is to heavy and only good for pro/shell, something like composure would have been much better "yeah I know its rdm only." Now then have the wards "Vallation, Pflug, Valiance" they all suck, the max protection you get from these wards with all the same runes up is 50% from one element, aegis shield is better than all our wards and runes combined. How can one piece of equipment crush a job class and make it obsolete, SE you didn't see a problem with this? I do not ever want aegis to be nerfed EVER, I just want you to concentrate and bring run up to a qualified and respectable tank capable of doing its job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cljader1

Im so disgusted at liement ward, now Im wishing they change it back to 10 minutes recast with 45 sec duration at least it was usable.

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I must disagree with this point. RUN is a reactionary job, and this is one of the things I like best about it. Liement could only absorb one source of damage anyways, so as long as you anticipate or react well, liement was made 3x better last update. I personally hope they add some piece of gear which causes liement to grant a stoneskin effect equal to the damage absorbed in order to better reward players for their reflexes, but leave the duration as 10 seconds to punish blindly mashing buttons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Complete BS. The only hard part is to come up with something that doesn't make it brokenly good, instead of brokenly bad.

Perhaps a Counterstance-like ability, but for parrying. +15% Parry rate per active Rune, at the expense of not getting en-spell damage whilst the ability is active.

Heck, even giving it Perfect Parry would go a fair way to helping maintaining buffs. Though to rely on it's own enhancing magic to reduce damage, it either needs severe fast cast, severe Conserve MP, native auto-refresh, A+ Enhancing Magic, or a combination or all of them.

No doubt among the Empy gear and accessories it will get access to some pieces with refresh on them, that are hopefully useful to full-time, or at least situationally useful to full-time. So that may help to alleviate MP issues when trying to full-time flash, foil, phalanx, aquaveil and maybe regen or an occasional stoneskin.



Geo is getting 2 new JTs, Conserve MP earlier, which might mean higher tiers of it, shorter casing times for 2/3rds of it's spells, 2 new spells, and an entire new magic skill. And it is already useful in SoA events.

RUN got a bit more enmity on Foil. And is still not yet useful in SoA events.

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You really don't understand whats broke with RUN do you?

Right now there is absolutely no place for it in either 18 member alliance content nor 3~6 member small group content. There is nothing it provides that can't be done better by someone else. Most of what people have requested fall into the category of "nifty tools", which can be nice but first require the job have a solid position to begin with. As of now it's usefulness is lower then BST, DNC and PUP.

People do not mindlessly invite jobs into their groups and randomly attack content. Instead they formulate a strategy, either on their own on copy & paste from a place like BGwiki or ffxiah. Thus in order for a job to be deemed useful it must first offer the person building the group a reason to build it into a strategy. "It takes less magic damage" means JACK SH!T in this game. Boss NM's primarily deal damage through a combination of physical damage and dumb status ailments (Zombie, Charm, Weakness, Doom, KO), the few actually dangerous magic attacks (Meteor / Klaustra) RUN can do f*ck all for anyway.

"Tanks" in the traditional sense (focus of bad guy hate) are just buffed melee's with curaga support, RUN isn't going to replace one of them. The super defensive folks only hold NM's and their adds, RUN isn't doing that. Support crew consists of a healer and dedicated buffing jobs like COR and BRD. RUN isn't healing folks and isn't going to be a better buffer then BRD or COR.

So what your left with is the equivalent of a melee RDM without elemental, healing or enfeebling magic but with access to light DD gear, great swords and no damage boosts. Congrats your now competing with RDM as the most useless / dead job currently in the game, at least RDM's enfeebles are actually useful though in a very gimmicky way.

Seriously sometimes I think you people are living in your own reality distortion field.