Summoner in Colonization Reives = Broken

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Originally Posted by Malphius

I have no issues getting points or Bayld on DD jobs. The topic at hand is that the event is unbalanced in a number of ways and 1 job getting special exception to game mechanics for said event can lead to exclusion of intended function of similar jobs.

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So which is it.... one job is taking the xp from everyone else (including yourself), or you are able to get good xp regardless if this other job is so broken that it is stealing the xp from everyone?

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Ever see a SAM or BLU in action in there?

Or a well geared PLD?

Methinks you may be a bit confuseded on what is going on out there.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

Legion, Odin 2.0, Voidwatch, abyssea solos.

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All of which are irrelevant to SoA expansion (aside from acquiring gear from those events, that may impact participation in SoA). In order to get the SoA gear and such....one needs to either participate in reives or do assignments/quests for SoA because of the new currency requirement.

So which is it... let every job find it's little niche to be relevant in Reives, or you relegate them to spamming things like Lost Articles or other fetch or delivery assignments over and over and over.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

Legion, Odin 2.0, Voidwatch, abyssea solos.

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I give you Voidwatch.
Not the other 3 anymore.

The solution to your problem wouldn't be nerfing smn, or any other job. But making other BPs useful.
What if whm coudn't target players outside their own party?
One solution would be adjusting the baylds gain so buffs BP, still hitting all players, would give significant baylds. I would leave healing duty to mages.

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Originally Posted by Thundarian

Telling me that you don't believe that putting a party restriction on summoner would make them worthless means nothing. As someone who only plays summoner at the moment, and is very interested in the numbers, and has tried most things under the sun to see what would result in good bayld gain, I can tell you that putting a party restriction without massive changes to how bayld is calculated would force you to not take summoner to reive's.

Telling me to use my subjob is silly. You are basically arguing to not come as a summoner, because if all I'm getting points for is curing as my subjob, then why not just come as WHM or SCH main for bigger better heals? Also light spirit does essentially nothing. Tried a few reive's using only it, in buffing / healing mode, and it cast maybe one heal on someone else, and threw a few protect / shell 5's, and as far as I could tell, I received no bayld / xp for it doing anything.

Your thread is very inflammatory considering the current feeling of summoners on the board, which is why you got angry responses from some people :P The problem is to fix the issue you are having, other large problems must be fixed first. Until those are fixed, simply changing the function of summoner in reive's removes them completely from the content.

On top of all that, I will add that while you may not think it is balanced, I think being able to buff everyone with blood pacts is fun. It is not fun to not be able to target people outside your party with your abilities. I think making it easier to use your beneficial abilities on all allies is a step in the right direction, and the game should be moved to be 'balanced' more around that. I understand the game is archaic and has limitations, but steps should be made to mitigate those instead of accepting them and moving on.

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I'm sorry that you believe the obvious to be worthless. Every other job is under that same exact restriction at this very moment. Again SMN's feel entitled to be the exception out of a sense of personal entitlement or personal preference.

I'm not telling you to rely on your subjob. You said to me that you can't target other parties with your avatar to which I replied that nor can I target or use my AoE abilities on other parties or alliances. I pointed out to you that you have the same tools at your disposal as any other mage class job to over come those restrictions. SCH only gets Cure 4 and Accession to cure outside parties. The exact same thing you get. Only that right now SMN has a leg up on everyone else because it's avatars STILL posses the ability to hit everyone with in range.

Maintaining that maybe the other support classes should melee is the silly notion. Arguing that SMN be an exception because you feel neglected everywhere else in the game is again, the silly notion.

My thread is far from inflammatory. I've only pointed out the obvious and asked for a reasonable explanation as to why they should be an exception and why they are fine with alienating an entire class in their favor. The response is always the same only the words change a little. Everyone is dancing around the issue but clearly the SMN community here is very self centered. Nobody will come right out and say that they're okay with pushing others out but they sure are framing that mindset quite effectively.

As far as a matter of balance goes I suppose that could be subjective but not in this case. Not only would your proposal ruin the entire balance of the game as opposed to just 1 event it would alienate SMN even more than you claim to be now. Who is gonna bring a few SMN to anything anymore when one SMN can hit an entire ally with PD? One of the only reasons SMN can push out others here is because of the tight spaces. It would be far less effective in the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

All of which are irrelevant to SoA expansion (aside from acquiring gear from those events, that may impact participation in SoA). In order to get the SoA gear and such....one needs to either participate in reives or do assignments/quests for SoA because of the new currency requirement.

So which is it... let every job find it's little niche to be relevant in Reives, or you relegate them to spamming things like Lost Articles or other fetch or delivery assignments over and over and over.

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So you're saying that since the expansion came out, SMN is no longer neglected and reigns supreme. Got it.

here's a little irony for you.

About 2 weeks ago, I actually left SAM and got back on SMN because one wasn't present, and everyone was getting their faces eaten off.

Something that doesn't appear to being considered much, even though it was touched on earlier. SMN fulfills a needed role out there BECAUSE of it's AOE buffs/heals. What happens when that is taken away? Wonder if there will be cries to reset it?

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Originally Posted by Aezelas

I give you Voidwatch.
Not the other 3 anymore.

The solution to your problem wouldn't be nerfing smn, or any other job. But making other BPs useful.
What if whm coudn't target players outside their own party?
One solution would be adjusting the baylds gain so buffs BP, still hitting all players, would give significant baylds. I would leave healing duty to mages.

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It's not nerfing the job. It's correcting an exception in an event. It effects SMN no where else in the game. SMN can target players outside their party with any number of spells from their support job. I've said this several times. They can still BP their party and spot heal with Cure 4. The same restrictions anyone else would and does have.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

So you're saying that since the expansion came out, SMN is no longer neglected and reigns supreme. Got it.

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No, I'm saying that the issue at hand here is SoA content, not the others. If you take out SMN's usefulness, you may virtually remove it from an important portion of the content. See my last post. In some ways, this feature of SMN makes it WANTED in reives.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

here's a little irony for you.

About 2 weeks ago, I actually left SAM and got back on SMN because one wasn't present, and everyone was getting their faces eaten off.

Something that doesn't appear to being considered much, even though it was touched on earlier. SMN fulfills a needed role out there BECAUSE of it's AOE buffs/heals. What happens when that is taken away? Wonder if there will be cries to reset it?

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There aren't' any because there are plenty of jobs that can and do heal. Attempt to anyways.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

There aren't' any because there are plenty of jobs that can and do heal. Attempt to anyways.

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key word there.. Attempt. What happens when there isn't enough healing and shedding of enmity and the healers die and everyone wipes?

What happens when that healer is a SMN's avatar?

What happens when it's a handful of mages?

Just saying.. need to put all this in the proper perspective.

Oh, yeah... and there are TWO SIDES to a reive. You can always go to the other side if there is too much competition for your usefulness....or go to another reive for that matter. ATM, there's tons of people doing them. Wait until it dies down, then what? lack of support in general and it becomes too much a chore for people to complete them easily enough, then what? Perhaps this is working as intended as an ounce of prevention from SE (I know.. giving them too much credit for the forethought, but who knows?).

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Originally Posted by RAIST

No, I'm saying that the issue at hand here is SoA content, not the others. If you take out SMN's usefulness, you may virtually remove it from an important portion of the content. See my last post. In some ways, this feature of SMN makes it WANTED in reives.

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I thought you meant that the other events were worthless now. PD is still very effective and needed in the other events. In the case that you meant they are no longer relevant because of the expansion then nor is the claim that SMN is the red headed step child. They are now raining supreme with the new expansion.

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Originally Posted by RAIST

So which is it.... one job is taking the xp from everyone else (including yourself), or you are able to get good xp regardless if this other job is so broken that it is stealing the xp from everyone?

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Ever see a SAM or BLU in action in there?

Or a well geared PLD?

Methinks you may be a bit confused on what is going on out there.

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You are the one confused and you're taking certain parts from certain conversations and mashing them together into one paraphrased sentence to misconstrue my points.

1. Yes SMN is taking Bayld from other support classes by making it literally impossible to perform their function when there are more than 1 or 2 SMN's.
2. Yes I can get good Bayld when I change my job class. Which shouldn't be necessary.
3. I stated that I often go as SAM.

Anything else?

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Originally Posted by RAIST

key word there.. Attempt. What happens when there isn't enough healing and shedding of enmity and the healers die and everyone wipes?

What happens when that healer is a SMN's avatar?

What happens when it's a handful of mages?

Just saying.. need to put all this in the proper perspective.

Oh, yeah... and there are TWO SIDES to a reive. You can always go to the other side if there is too much competition for your usefulness....or go to another reive for that matter. ATM, there's tons of people doing them. Wait until it dies down, then what? lack of support in general and it becomes too much a chore for people to complete them easily enough, then what? Perhaps this is working as intended as an ounce of prevention from SE (I know.. giving them too much credit for the forethought, but who knows?).

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You cannot simply "go to the other side" of a Reive. Have you even done this event? Have you left Ceizak Battlegrounds?

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Originally Posted by Malphius

I thought you meant that the other events were worthless now. PD is still very effective and needed in the other events. In the case that you meant they are no longer relevant because of the expansion then nor is the claim that SMN is the red headed step child. They are now raining supreme with the new expansion.

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But, you're missing the point. If you take this feature away from SMN, you may wind up taking away it's usefulness in reives. Well, at least outside of a very limited scope of being in a party trying to take them on I guess. But, if one is putting forth that level of planning, they are more likely to take the job that is best suited for healing a party. Which jobs would they be considering for that role? SMN? I guess if nothing else is available, maybe.

So, what does the lonely SMN get for it's efforts in reives if it's not in a party?

What does nearly every other job get for it's efforts in reives if not in a party?

That's the problem. You are advocating taking away the one thing that makes them truly desirable in the new content. Having this feature doesn't lessen the desire for other jobs NEARLY as much as it would reduce the desire for SMN if it was taken away. Therfore, it actually does (in SE's twisted way) provide balance for the jobs.

Just think about it. If Garuda/Leviathin/Carbuncle are able to provide just enough healing support to sustain a reive long enough for the HP restore rewards to kick in and refill everyone, it frees up other jobs to focus on other aspects. Couple this with the fact that it is virtually the only way for a SMN to make sure they get decent rewards, while most other jobs aren't faced with that delimma (lets face it, most other jobs are considerably more durable than SMN if they are getting smacked by a mob--even BRD gets access to more durable gears at times)...than you are faced with a serious deficit if you take away the one thing that really gives the job a truly desired slot in the event.

The simple fact that a WHM can get somewhat decent rewards without focusing on healing should be evidence enough that it is NOT required that a healer gets all it's reward from curing, even if it is the one most suited for it. So, what is SMN REALLy taking away from the healer? At least there is another option for those other jobs to still perform relevant roles and get rewarded for their efforts...SMN actually pretty much IS the red-headed step-child here if you really think about it.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

SMN is good at something? By Altana! Red alert! AWOOOOGAH! AWOOOGAH! This is NOT a drill! Emergency maintenance! Patch it NOW! GO GO GO! Let's move people! Let's MOVE!

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this, this, this, a thousand times this.

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You cannot simply "go to the other side" of a Reive. Have you even done this event? Have you left Ceizak Battlegrounds?

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You most certainly can, as long as you've been to each of the bivouacs.

I can't for the life of me comprehend why someone is upset that a typically very unwanted job is able to perform a useful task in an event and be rewarded for it.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

You cannot simply "go to the other side" of a Reive. Have you even done this event? Have you left Ceizak Battlegrounds?

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Umm.. yes... have you not read my posts?

Roots always spawn in the same spots. The campers all gather and wait. Some gather more heavily on one side than the other. If one side is heavier with SMN, just go join the other group.

Now, with the crags and trees, it gets a little more complicated I guess...unless you can use waypoints to navigate around to the other side somehow. That may be too much a bother though. But with the roots, it's pretty easy to choose a side...provided you've done it enough to have a feel for where the roots will pop.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

You are the one confused and you're taking certain parts from certain conversations and mashing them together into one paraphrased sentence to misconstrue my points.

1. Yes SMN is taking Bayld from other support classes by making it literally impossible to perform their function when there are more than 1 or 2 SMN's.
2. Yes I can get good Bayld when I change my job class. Which shouldn't be necessary.
3. I stated that I often go as SAM.

Anything else?

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And I just actually went and spent an HOUR IN GAME showing that I did not have to change my job class and still got rewarded for my efforts on a WHITE MAGE without relying on healing while the SUMMONERS were supporting the group.

Now, what DID i change? My TACTICS.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

this, this, this, a thousand times this.

You most certainly can, as long as you've been to each of the bivouacs.

I can't for the life of me comprehend why someone is upset that a typically very unwanted job is able to perform a useful task in an event and be rewarded for it.

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You get a time out penalty for leaving a reive. Again not upset they're useful. However it's useful to the point of being unbalanced. Thank you for your comments.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

You get a time out penalty for leaving a reive. Again not upset they're useful. However it's useful to the point of being unbalanced. Thank you for your comments.

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Not here to defend Alhanelem (he can do that himself) but you CAN go to the other side of reive. Especially in Morimar Basalt Fields, it's very easy as long as you get there before the rock crack and block the "bridge". Also, if you were to stand at the right spot, you can heal ppl on both side. I've been going there for Reive and even my mule gets 3k per reive as sch just healing/buffing me (and the occasional healing of other DDs).

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Originally Posted by RAIST

But, you're missing the point. If you take this feature away from SMN, you may wind up taking away it's usefulness in reives. Well, at least outside of a very limited scope of being in a party trying to take them on I guess. But, if one is putting forth that level of planning, they are more likely to take the job that is best suited for healing a party. Which jobs would they be considering for that role? SMN? I guess if nothing else is available, maybe.

So, what does the lonely SMN get for it's efforts in reives if it's not in a party?

What does nearly every other job get for it's efforts in reives if not in a party?

That's the problem. You are advocating taking away the one thing that makes them truly desirable in the new content. Having this feature doesn't lessen the desire for other jobs NEARLY as much as it would reduce the desire for SMN if it was taken away. Therfore, it actually does (in SE's twisted way) provide balance for the jobs.

Just think about it. If Garuda/Leviathin/Carbuncle are able to provide just enough healing support to sustain a reive long enough for the HP restore rewards to kick in and refill everyone, it frees up other jobs to focus on other aspects. Couple this with the fact that it is virtually the only way for a SMN to make sure they get decent rewards, while most other jobs aren't faced with that delimma (lets face it, most other jobs are considerably more durable than SMN if they are getting smacked by a mob--even BRD gets access to more durable gears at times)...than you are faced with a serious deficit if you take away the one thing that really gives the job a truly desired slot in the event.

The simple fact that a WHM can get somewhat decent rewards without focusing on healing should be evidence enough that it is NOT required that a healer gets all it's reward from curing, even if it is the one most suited for it. So, what is SMN REALLy taking away from the healer? At least there is another option for those other jobs to still perform relevant roles and get rewarded for their efforts...SMN actually pretty much IS the red-headed step-child here if you really think about it.

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Taking away this feature once again for the 1000th time will put SMN back on a level playing field and would make them operate exactly the way they do literally every where else in the game.

1. This is not a solo event and SMN is a buff job. Party up or fail like any other support job.

2. If you are a DD solo you get the reward of probably dying. Unless a SMN is around to spam BP's.

3. It doen't make them less useful it just makes them less all powerful. Having this feature lessens the desire not from other DD or PLD's but from the actual mages who would have come to cure but didn't because DD is better.

4. This paragraph proves my point. SMN's are able to provide healing support all on their one for the duration of a reive using an unfair advantage.

5. The simple fact that a support class job (again I never brought WHM into this, it's the same for rdm,sch,geo or bard) cannot get rewards by performing their function which by the way is why they're called "jobs" is evidence of how this is an unbalanced game mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Dreamin

Not here to defend Alhanelem (he can do that himself) but you CAN go to the other side of reive. Especially in Morimar Basalt Fields, it's very easy as long as you get there before the rock crack and block the "bridge". Also, if you were to stand at the right spot, you can heal ppl on both side. I've been going there for Reive and even my mule gets 3k per reive as sch just healing/buffing me (and the occasional healing of other DDs).

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You get a direct penalty for leaving a reive and an indirect penalty for the time you could have been accumulating but were going to the other side. Targeting some people on the other side can some times work but only if there are plenty of people to handle incoming pops. Only really feasible in the starter zones.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

Read the entire thread. They are spamming Cure BP's and earning over 1k per tally for it.

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If by tally, you mean the points you get when the reive end. That's very low. With smns around, I still pull 1-8k on drg. Infact the smns are a good thing, they help keep me alive while I poke things.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

If by tally, you mean the points you get when the reive end. That's very low. With smns around, I still pull 1-8k on drg. Infact the smns are a good thing, they help keep me alive while I poke things.

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Nah I mean mini-tally. The one that pops up every minute or so.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

Nah I mean mini-tally. The one that pops up every minute or so.

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And by 1-8k I meant in total with the points throughout. lol

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Originally Posted by Malphius

Taking away this feature once again for the 1000th time will put SMN back on a level playing field and would make them operate exactly the way they do literally every where else in the game.

1. This is not a solo event and SMN is a buff job. Party up or fail like any other support job.

2. If you are a DD solo you get the reward of probably dying. Unless a SMN is around to spam BP's.

3. It doen't make them less useful it just makes them less all powerful. Having this feature lessens the desire not from other DD or PLD's but from the actual mages who would have come to cure but didn't because DD is better.

4. This paragraph proves my point. SMN's are able to provide healing support all on their one for the duration of a reive using an unfair advantage.

5. The simple fact that a support class job (again I never brought WHM into this, it's the same for rdm,sch,geo or bard) cannot get rewards by performing their function which by the way is why they're called "jobs" is evidence of how this is an unbalanced game mechanic.

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and YOU are missing the point that others have made earlier.. that SMN does NOT do well in reives without taking advantage of this feature.

So, yes, you are advocating nerfing it in a big way...quite possibly to the point of it not being worth it to go.

The jobs that are in most direct competition with it in the scope of healing can do much better on it's own than SMN when it can't fall back on the healing aspect for bigger rewards.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

Legion, Odin 2.0, Voidwatch, abyssea solos.

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Legion, Odin - no one uses PD anymore since the nerf.

VW - SMN is just another proc monkey like every other mage that has a proc there (and some DDs too).

Abyssea solo - you seriously want to talk about SMN's solo ability vs some other jobs??? [No 'full' yellow proc of any 1 magic type alone is NOT worth solo'ing in abyssea at all unless you're talking about just solo'ing tier 1 VNM for skilling]

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Originally Posted by RAIST

and YOU are missing the point that others have made earlier.. that SMN does NOT do well in reives without taking advantage of this feature.

So, yes, you are advocating nerfing it in a big way...quite possibly to the point of it not being worth it to go.

The jobs that are in most direct competition with it in the scope of healing can do much better on it's own than SMN when it can't fall back on the healing aspect for bigger rewards.

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Then please come out and say it, that SMN should have an unfair game mechanic working in their favor and that other support class jobs should just gtfo or lolmelee.

who said anything about leaving reive???? you sure you have done reive in Morimar Basalt Fields???? You can if you get to the reive before it start, you can just walk over the walkway/bridge to be on the 'other side' of the reive.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

And by 1-8k I meant in total with the points throughout. lol

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Think that's something that is being sorely neglected here... the overall reward for participation. Just looking at the rewards for hitting goals is not an accurate reflection. You continuosly get rewarded as time passes. Need to consider your overall earnings.

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Originally Posted by Dreamin

Legion, Odin - no one uses PD anymore since the nerf.

VW - SMN is just another proc monkey like every other mage that has a proc there (and some DDs too).

Abyssea solo - you seriously want to talk about SMN's solo ability vs some other jobs??? [No 'full' yellow proc of any 1 magic type alone is NOT worth solo'ing in abyssea at all unless you're talking about just solo'ing tier 1 VNM for skilling]

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I can promise you that plenty of people still use PD and it's still very useful. My groups used it extensively after the "nerf" and still continue to do so. Do you do these events and have personal experience?

Everyone in VW is a proc monkey. If you're in the mage party pull out a mage support avatar to support them. SMN is a support job mainly right?

I did say Abyssea soloing right and not proccing? That's right that's exactly what I said. Abbyssea alienated a ton of jobs not just SMN. SMN with the proper atmas can solo most things in abyssea better than most.

"who said anything about leaving reive???? you sure you have done reive in Morimar Basalt Fields???? You can if you get to the reive before it start, you can just walk over the walkway/bridge to be on the 'other side' of the reive."

When you're doing reives you are usually following a group. It's really the only effective way to do it. Hit one move on to the next with the rest of the group etc... Most reives are started before you get to them or as you approach them by other players.

*edit* You also have no idea when just arriving to a reive before others, what side they will go to.

What would you be solo'ing in Abyssea for? exp? if not for +1/+2 (or maybe the KI or item drop). all these these minus the exp gets you better chance if you were able to proc then when you dont proc. Sure, SMN can solo a ton of NMs in abyssea but without proc'ing, there's no point and it just becomes a waste of time (any abyssea farming without proc really is a waste of time for the most part).

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Originally Posted by Dreamin

What would you be solo'ing in Abyssea for? exp? if not for +1/+2 (or maybe the KI or item drop). all these these minus the exp gets you better chance if you were able to proc then when you dont proc. Sure, SMN can solo a ton of NMs in abyssea but without proc'ing, there's no point and it just becomes a waste of time (any abyssea farming without proc really is a waste of time for the most part).

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Good for low man. Tag a NM with THF for the empy items. I've seen plenty of ppl do it that way while building their empy's.

So pick a side if you're not sure which one they going to go onto but normally once ppl get to a reive and if it hasn' started yet, some ppl will automatically go to the other side while some would just wait on the side that they went from. for example, on Ragnarok at least, typically ppl do a counter-clockwise move from 1 reive to the next thoughout the zone. what this mean is that most o the people would just naturally stay on the "left" side with the "right side" being with lesser number of people.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

Then please come out and say it, that SMN should have an unfair game mechanic working in their favor and that other support class jobs should just gtfo or lolmelee.

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It's not unfair if it balances out the playing field.

Again, without this mechanic, SMN is virtually useless in reives for gaining XP/Bayld.

And I never said the need to GTFO or lolmelee... and by the way, a decently geared WHM is not exactly lolmelee. Granted, 1k+ hexa's pale in comparison to a 3k+ Shoha.... but considering you're using a toothpick and not a big sword, it's pretty impressive for a mage to pull off.

The point is, you can change your approach. How did Einstein put it? Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. You can switch up your playstyle and melee if you want. You can move to the other side. You can stop following that herd and go to another reive that's not so heavy with SMN's.

It's also not too far fetched to apply your logic to other compa\onents....PLD has an unfair advantage in lair reives and needs to be changed....BRD, SMN, RDM, and BLM shouldn't be able to keep all the mobs slept off to the side of a palm tree while everyone beats on it because people can't get any good xp off the reive.

Do you see the slope yet?

SMN is not "broken" on this event. If anything, it's more a blessing because it allows others to participate in a way that might not otherwise happen. For instance, there might not be anyone fighting the mobs--they could ust sleep everything, beat down the obstruction, ending it with virtually no rewards given at all. BECAUSE SMN can sustain the fighters like it does, it is able to be extended so everyone gets rewarded more in the long run because they are able to achieve various gols that would not be possible without people actually fighting the monsters.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

Good for low man. Tag a NM with THF for the empy items. I've seen plenty of ppl do it that way while building their empy's.

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thought you said SMN solo??? where's the THF coming from if you're solo'ing? Or you only mean solo kill while a THF run around tagging? You know techically you're really NOT solo'ing.

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Originally Posted by Dreamin

So pick a side if you're not sure which one they going to go onto but normally once ppl get to a reive and if it hasn' started yet, some ppl will automatically go to the other side while some would just wait on the side that they went from. for example, on Ragnarok at least, typically ppl do a counter-clockwise move from 1 reive to the next thoughout the zone. what this mean is that most o the people would just naturally stay on the "left" side with the "right side" being with lesser number of people.

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Okay so you're still guessing and it again raises my early point which again is that you can't simply switch sides.

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Originally Posted by Dreamin

thought you said SMN solo??? where's the THF coming from if you're solo'ing? Or you only mean solo kill while a THF run around tagging? You know techically you're really NOT solo'ing.

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You're splitting hairs. THF just tags. Not needed but better drops. SMN can handle it w/o a THF.

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Originally Posted by Malphius

Okay so you're still guessing and it again raises my early point which again is that you can't simply switch sides.

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So, you realize that this side of the reives is full of people that are making it hard for you to do what you want to do. Now, make a decision. When the horde moves to the next site, you can opt to get on the other side BEFORE IT STARTS. Or, you could just opt to scrap this group, and roll with a different crowd all-together.

Think we're just getting off track here. The point here is this (why so many ppl disagreed why SMN needs to be nerf'ed):

SMN is one of the most forgotten job in the eyes of SE (one can debate about BST and RDM as well but SMN is definitely up there). How many other jobs has something NEW for them that was announced almost 2 years ago and still have no deliverable in sight? How many jobs still relies heavily on a level 72 JA as one of their main source of damage at all??? How many jobs whose main source of usefulness is locked to a timer that is 45s at best.