Un-gimping magic procs in dynamis

I agree with the OP. The congestion at the job ability mobs is really bad... making magic and ws procs a little easier would be a welcomed adjustment!

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Another issue is WS procs. It is believed that WS procs are actually at a bit lower rate than JA procs, even though it is usually possible to use JAs much more often than WSes.

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From my parses on pup, weaponskill proc rates are also at about 20%. (I got 18.8% overall, but that includes the puppet using its abilities on proc'd mobs; it excludes pure-damage weaponskills on proc'd mobs, since I use different weaponskills for procs vs damage.)

The main difference is that weaponskill procs (aside from puppets) inherently do damage to the mob (plus counting the melee time needed to get TP for another attempt), which means the mob will always die faster from weaponskill procs than JA procs, reducing the chances of getting a proc before the mob dies. Number of attempts per mob determines the overall proc rate, so that's an important factor.

I've never parsed magic proc rates, but from incidental attempts that I've seen... Well, ninjutsu seems to have a very low proc rate; 10% at best. Normal magic from rdm (when silencing/sleeping/etc mage beastmen) doesn't seem too terribly bad, though still annoying; dia almost never proc's, but things like silence/sleep/paralyze/slow/etc seemed more likely.

Personally, I'd probably suggest having the chance of proc'ing be proportional to the cast time of the spell (base cast time of the spell, not the result after fast cast is applied). Things like Dia and extremely fast blu spells would be on the low end. Maybe ancient magic could be like a 50% proc rate or something. And maybe it already works that way; I don't know that anyone's done any testing on it other than the gut feeling of the above anecdotes, with obvious eyeballing caveat. It might also be proportional to damage done, for spells that do damage (and then a fixed value for enfeebles), which would also make fast, low-damage spells like Dia less useful.

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

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A simple "No" would've sufficed.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

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You must realize that magic procs are completely pointless and NOBODY does them intentionally. Even on BLU, if I accidentally aggro a magic-proc mob, I don't even bother trying to proc it. I kill it as soon as possible and move on to something I can proc. It's faster NOT to proc magic mobs than to attempt to proc them. Do you really think that makes any sense whatsoever? Why does this proc even exist to begin with?

With three people, it takes an average of 5-10 seconds to proc a mob using job abilities. With magic procs, it takes an average of 30 seconds, if not more...

Even using JA procs I've been stuck on monsters for 2-3 minutes before before they procced. Yeah I know it would've been better to move on, but just saiyan. Also something the dev team failed to consider is the opportunity cost of using magic- casting magic over and over hurts your damage to the monster, whereas JAs, while adding the same amount of delay, only need a few uses, and WSs are something you would do in the course of battle anyway. Spamming dia is not something people normally do.

Would it at least be possible for the monster to force a proc after so many attempts? Even if you make it a high number (say, 20 casts) at least I KNOW I'll get a proc eventually even if the RNG screws me over.

I find these answers from the SE reps on this forum very frustrating, all he has done is re-hase the original news about this and not taken any consideration in to what people are saying about magic proc, did you even take this to any member of the dev team?
Please if you don't believe any one here go to dynamis watch how people play it, you will not see one magic proc party of solo player there.

Next up nerf WS and JA to equal magic the Old School SE way.....

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

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you know if your going to reply with game data you should probably at least use what is mostly being used for job ability procs which in this case would mostly be Box step(15 second reuses) and Violent flourish (20 second reuses) which are both considerably faster than once every 30 seconds to 1 min, on the magic side your also not considering excluding rdm mp gathers slower than tp does

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Originally Posted by Raksha

A simple "No" would've sufficed.

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They post short answers and people cry for more of an explanation/justification. Can't have your cake and eat it as well.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

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DNC and /DNC excel at proccing JAs. JAs are used instantly and have no cast time. /DNC gets used all the time for farming because it's the easiest and most reliable method for proccing enemies in Dynamis. 15 sec JA + 20 sec JA at 20% proc rate = ~2.3% proc rate per second, not including any extra JAs available.

PUP and /PUP excel at proccing WSs, and every job has the ability to use WSs. WSs are used instantly and have no cast time. PUP hardly ever gets used because it's not widely known how well it works. 30 sec "ws"(bulb) + 30 sec "ws"(strobe) + 3 minute "ws"(bash) + 1 minute "ws"(disruptor) at 15% proc rate = ~1.3% proc rate per second, not including the actual weapon skills used by puppet and master.

The best jobs for proccing magic are whm, blm, rdm, brd, nin, blu, and sch. Due to the casting time of spells, the recast time of spells and the low proc rate, it takes the best casters more time to proc on average than the best DNCs or PUPs. We'll use BRD for example since they have tons of fast cast gear available and tons of useful debuffs they can spam quickly including horde lull, elegy, and nocturne. Without latent active, my bard has song spellcast -47% plus loq earring and veela cape, so roughly 50% casting time down. In one minute, I can cast 12 threnodies. 60 secs for 12 spells at 5% proc rate = 1% proc rate per sec, and I don't have the ability to do anything but spamming magic until it's procced.

Summary:
JAs: DNC can achieve 2.3% chance to proc per second by using step + flourish, and can increase that rate by choosing a SJ with aggressive JAs. Additionally, they still have the ability to take other actions during the time they are attempting to proc.

WSs: PUP can achieve 1.3% chance to proc per second merely by the JAs their puppet uses, and they can increase that proc rate by WSing with their puppet or themselves. Additionally, they can take other actions between the 3 manuevers they have to keep up (fire, light, dark).

Magic: BRD can achieve 1% chance to proc per second, but debuffs are all they can do while they attempt to proc. If they stop to buff/heal/WS/JA, their chance to proc per second goes down.

Magic takes longer to proc than JAs or WSs, and attempting to proc with magic carries the cost of lost opportunity.

It probably would be programmatically difficult but it would be nice if higher tier damage spells had a high rate of weakness proc-ing. Seems like low magic proc rate promotes players to spam low lvl cheap fast spells like Dia and Bio. If there could be a better way the developers could strike a balance more people would probably do cities instead of just dreamlands. Another thought is to raise the rate for magic procs and maybe remove aoe spells from the proc list. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Kfox

It probably would be programmatically difficult but it would be nice if higher tier damage spells had a high rate of weakness proc-ing. Seems like low magic proc rate promotes players to spam low lvl cheap fast spells like Dia and Bio. If there could be a better way the developers could strike a balance more people would probably do cities instead of just dreamlands. Another thought is to raise the rate for magic procs and maybe remove aoe spells from the proc list. Just a thought.

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That's the fundamental problem with their proc system in general; it rewards quantity over quality. Some jobs are really good at spamming JAs/magic/WSs, and others are really bad at it. It doesn't matter if the spell takes 20 seconds to cast, it still has the same chance to proc as foe lullaby. It doesn't matter if your JA has a 20 minute recast, it still has the same proc rate as box step. It doesn't matter if it takes you a minute to get 100 TP, your WS proc rate is the same as samurai.

Edit: Personally, I'd like it better if there was some minor skill-based way to increase your chances of proccing though. If they could make each magic-proc enemy glow a certain color, and you get a 3x normal chance to proc with spells matching that element.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

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I'd hoped to hear that issues like this are actually being tested by the Dev team. It sounds like they have no idea how the game actually plays and just make assumptions based on nothing.

In 60 seconds you can get off 5 box steps and 3 violent flourishes.
In 60 seconds you can get around 10 Dia off, maybe 12 as RDM (casting animation cuts into spam speed alot).
In the time your JA's are cooling down you are also dealing damage and gaining TP without giving anything up (MP/time/dps).

All you have to do is log on to one of the servers and do a quick search through dynamis for the penny to drop. I can't believe this hasn't been done by someone working on the game already. Almost every person in there will be /DNC or DNC main, besides the occassional PUP. Congestion is shocking sometimes, and spreading the farmers over many camps will go a long way to easing that.

I doubt anyone would mind if you just made all mobs proc from JA 100% of the time either, it would have little impact on how the content plays currently and there would be far less competition at each camp.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

In one minute, I can cast 12 threnodies. 60 secs for 12 spells at 5% proc rate = 1% proc rate per sec

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While I largely agree with your argument, your numbers here don't add up. Threnodies have a 2 second cast time, so with 50% spell cast time reduction it would be 1 second each. Of course you can't actually spam them 1 second apart because of the fundamental spellcasting delay, so you're still working with about 2 seconds each. Recast time is 24 seconds, though you can reduce that with haste enough that you're always going to have a threnody available (only need 33% haste to drop it under the 16 seconds a full cycle would take).

That would give you about 4 cycles (30 proc attempts) per minute. Of course you lose a fair bit of time when you have to rebuff (marches, hastes for DDs, etc) or cure -- probably 15% of all your time goes to that. That means ~26 casts, or about 3 cycles of threnodies.

The problem is what the base proc rate for magic is. If it's 5%, then even 26 attempts per minute is horrendous. Assuming 2-3 mobs per minute, that's 9-13 attempts per mob, which gives you a per-mob proc rate of 35% to 50%. If it's a 10% base proc rate, then that's 60% to 75% proc rate per mob.

The 10% rate isn't horrible, but it depends on the player being able to do almost nothing but spam spells. If I have to run for 15 seconds to the next mob, that's only one or two JA attempts lost, but it's a full cycle of spell attempts lost. Time lost to 'other stuff' (casting, running, whatever) is more detrimental to the magic user than to the JA user.


The devs apparently also don't account for the damage opportunity cost of using magic procs. If I'm using a brd, for example, I gain a lot more from letting 1 or 2 DDs focus on JA procs and fighting while the brd runs around pulling then I do by letting the brd be stuck in one spot spamming magic. It may be possible to work around that, but in every scenario I've run, you lose more by either not simply adding another DD instead of a mage, or not having the mage focus on crowd control and pulling instead of procing.

I'd say that magic procs would need to be bumped up to at least a 15% raw proc rate to be a competitive option with other proc choices.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

DNC and /DNC excel at proccing JAs. JAs are used instantly and have no cast time. /DNC gets used all the time for farming because it's the easiest and most reliable method for proccing enemies in Dynamis. 15 sec JA + 20 sec JA at 20% proc rate = ~2.3% proc rate per second, not including any extra JAs available.

PUP and /PUP excel at proccing WSs, and every job has the ability to use WSs. WSs are used instantly and have no cast time. PUP hardly ever gets used because it's not widely known how well it works. 30 sec "ws"(bulb) + 30 sec "ws"(strobe) + 3 minute "ws"(bash) + 1 minute "ws"(disruptor) at 15% proc rate = ~1.3% proc rate per second, not including the actual weapon skills used by puppet and master.

The best jobs for proccing magic are whm, blm, rdm, brd, nin, blu, and sch. Due to the casting time of spells, the recast time of spells and the low proc rate, it takes the best casters more time to proc on average than the best DNCs or PUPs. We'll use BRD for example since they have tons of fast cast gear available and tons of useful debuffs they can spam quickly including horde lull, elegy, and nocturne. Without latent active, my bard has song spellcast -47% plus loq earring and veela cape, so roughly 50% casting time down. In one minute, I can cast 12 threnodies. 60 secs for 12 spells at 5% proc rate = 1% proc rate per sec, and I don't have the ability to do anything but spamming magic until it's procced.

Summary:
JAs: DNC can achieve 2.3% chance to proc per second by using step + flourish, and can increase that rate by choosing a SJ with aggressive JAs. Additionally, they still have the ability to take other actions during the time they are attempting to proc.

WSs: PUP can achieve 1.3% chance to proc per second merely by the JAs their puppet uses, and they can increase that proc rate by WSing with their puppet or themselves. Additionally, they can take other actions between the 3 manuevers they have to keep up (fire, light, dark).

Magic: BRD can achieve 1% chance to proc per second, but debuffs are all they can do while they attempt to proc. If they stop to buff/heal/WS/JA, their chance to proc per second goes down.

Magic takes longer to proc than JAs or WSs, and attempting to proc with magic carries the cost of lost opportunity.

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The reason why they cannot increase magic proc rate is BLU. Can easily spam Delta Thrust, Head Butt, or 20 other possible quick cast/recast spells that they have.

Am I the only one who thinks that these procs are pointless and they should just get rid of them entirely? Why not just add say 50% more HP to the mobs to compensate for the fact that you can kill as fast as you want without proccing and juts get rid of procs? It would open up entire zones instead of having everybody fighting over the same mobs.

While I'm not a fan of the proc system, that idea doesn't work because removing procs removes all limitations on what job you enter as and how many you can claim at once, so strategies like mass Fell Cleaving and parties monopolizing several groups of monsters at once would not be an uncommon tactic. And if you want to argue that every camp would be open, I think that's precisely what they want to avoid to "control" the amount of ancient currency being brought in. They would reduce the bill drop rate dramatically.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

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This is actually not correct. If you do a quick search of the dynamis zones, you will notice that the vast majority of players are either dancer, or using dancer as their sub job. This is not only because dancer is a very powerful subjob for any melee that does not have native MP or curative abilities, but also because dancer has two abilities on a cooldown timer that is a lot lower than 30 seconds. You can do steps every 15 seconds, and violent flourish every 20 seconds. Combined, these allow you to use 7 job abilities per minute, or 3.5 JAs every 30 seconds.

It doesn't matter that most JAs are on a higher timer than a dancer's steps and flourishes, when everyone uses dancer or dancer as a subjob, and always tries to proc with these JAs instead of other abilities with a longer cooldown.

I think someone in the dev team should get on a lv99 job and try to farm dynamis a few times, each time while focusing on a single type of procs. It wouldn't come as a surprise which of the runs were the most profitable, and that's where the imbalance lies.

It might just be the case that because of the great variance between cooldowns for various types of spells and abilities, the current proc system is simply not functioning in a balanced way. Perhaps abilities should be weighted by how often they are possible to use. Perhaps "High Jump" should have a much greater chance to proc than "Stutter step", considering the step can be used 10 times more often than high jump, and perhaps foot kick should have a lower chance to proc than Dia, considering foot kick has half the cast time of dia.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

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it's not an impression, it's a fact. Casters tend to be on the squishy side, and that's by design, we get that. The problem is that solo you can't live long enough to spam tier I spells (as an example) for the proc. In a group the problem is that if there are any melees they kill the mob so fast that you don't have time for more than 1-2 procs before it's dead (maybe 3 if your melee are smart enough to not burn their TP on WS until after the proc). THAT is why magic mobs are not targeted. It is NOT a lingering impression, it's cold, hard fact.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

That's the fundamental problem with their proc system in general; it rewards quantity over quality. Some jobs are really good at spamming JAs/magic/WSs, and others are really bad at it. It doesn't matter if the spell takes 20 seconds to cast, it still has the same chance to proc as foe lullaby. It doesn't matter if your JA has a 20 minute recast, it still has the same proc rate as box step. It doesn't matter if it takes you a minute to get 100 TP, your WS proc rate is the same as samurai.

Edit: Personally, I'd like it better if there was some minor skill-based way to increase your chances of proccing though. If they could make each magic-proc enemy glow a certain color, and you get a 3x normal chance to proc with spells matching that element.

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I think you pretty much nailed it. I usually solo pup/dnc with either the whm or rdm auto which yeilds a pretty even proc rate on all 3 procs and lets me work some camps that aren't as common due to the magic mobs around. But it is MUCH slower than other job combos or even other autos as you pointed out in your earlier post (60-75 currency rate per 2 hour run instead of the 100-120 I could do-if I luck out and have no competition). Not to mention REALLY missing a sleep ability when the smn mobs decide to show up. Too bad rng/nin is so squishy with no healing ability to speak of, with a good Xbow (if one existed at endgame) it could make a good 3 proc solo artist without all the godawful downtime that cripples its effectiveness and allow for TH use.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

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Please keep in mind, I am a RDM with a Fast Cast set that is at roughly -70% cast time. Even with that I dare not bother to even attempt to proc magic proc mobs with Dia. My casting & recast are so small it is insignificant, but the low proc rate makes it so unappealing I am better off going RDM/DNC & fighting Job Ability proc mobs rather than actually going out & fighting magic proc mobs. A 5% proc rate is a 1/20 chance, which is what the players have estimated it as, and with my experience its true. This low of a rate makes it much harder, even if you can spam spells.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace.

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Spells cost MP as well, just like WSs cost TP. At 20 casts of dia per proc, you are looking at 140 MP on average to proc a mob, thats alot of time & MP, a job without refresh would be empty after only 6~7 mobs proced. I understand magic can be spammed quickly, but look at it this way, RDM with nearly capped Fast Cast, and yet I don't bother procing magic procs, let alone other jobs that cast slower, or don't have a 7MP/Tick Refresh effect at nearly all times. The speed of magic really does not go well with this low rate, by keeping it the same it will simply keep ignoring magic proc mobs & doing mainly JA, with a few people going to WS. Magic mobs are currently just that bad, please reconsider this, it will help overall clutter in zones & make more jobs effective in Dyna as a whole!

The developers have stated that they don't want to create content that nobody does. That's good. But that is exactly what they have done with magic and weaponskill proc mobs. Nobody tries to proc on them; procs on magic/WS mobs are basically by accident. There's no reason to even kill them in the first place unless they aggro or you are farming non-currency drops like pop items; in neither of these two cases is it worth your time to try and proc. (In the first case you want the aggro out of the way ASAP so you can get back to what you meant to be doing, in the second case procing won't help your drop rates and trying to proc will slow down your kill speed.) If only we could force them to open their damn eyes and actually LOOK at what is going on instead of tossing off some preconceived notion that they have never tested against the reality even once.

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Originally Posted by Thoraeon

The reason why they cannot increase magic proc rate is BLU. Can easily spam Delta Thrust, Head Butt, or 20 other possible quick cast/recast spells that they have.

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Oh no, BLU might become as good at farming dynamis as DNC is currently.

Can't have that.

I'm confused as to why BLU would be more of a threat than RDM, BLU actually can kill the mob with spells & has alot less MP recovery than RDM does, where as RDM also has alot more on the defensive side (so far as I know) to keep the enemy from really taking them down.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

I'm confused as to why BLU would be more of a threat than RDM, BLU actually can kill the mob with spells & has alot less MP recovery than RDM does, where as RDM also has alot more on the defensive side (so far as I know) to keep the enemy from really taking them down.

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Because RDM doesn't so much kill mobs as it does annoy them to death.

From a superficial look, I don't think giving blu the ability to spam for procs would be significantly negative problem.

Consider: You need 4-5 spells that you can cycle through, given recast timers, if you really want to be able to spam them. This probably means at least a couple spells squeezing out of the standard, 'preferred' spells.

If raw spell proc rates were increased to 15%, 10 spells would give an 80% per-mob proc rate. 10 spells would eat up a good 20 seconds of melee time, and probably at least 20% of the blu's MP pool. Now, the spells themselves do damage, so it's not a complete loss, but you're not going to be doing melee damage or getting TP during that period.

Overall kill time may be in the 20-30 second range (which is pretty good solo; that's more the time you'd expect from a duo), but you'll run out of MP fairly quickly at that pace since a lot of the damage will have to come from spells due to lack of melee TP.

If you think the potential is a bit too high, you can lower the proc rate to 12.5%, which would give a 75% per-mob proc rate after 10 spells.

I need to do a run and parse the current behavior just to get a better idea of the degree of shift needed for this to be viable.

Edit: and yes, I doubt this would be practical for rdm solo, but it could at least have the potential of being a good duo setup.

You people just never learn do you?

They are not going up magic proc, they will just end up nerfing ja procs.

I guess when everyone's proc rate sucks together, you'll all be happy?

If they do then oh well, they just prove again they don't care about players & instead want to make this game suck.

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Originally Posted by Metaking

you know if your going to reply with game data you should probably at least use what is mostly being used for job ability procs which in this case would mostly be Box step(15 second reuses) and Violent flourish (20 second reuses) which are both considerably faster than once every 30 seconds to 1 min, on the magic side your also not considering excluding rdm mp gathers slower than tp does

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/sigh

You had to go and say it. You couldn't resist, and went and said it.

Next dev response: "we understand that job ability procs are actually easier than we had originally intended, so they will be reduced to proc the same as magic".

Then the price of currenecy goes up and people stop making relics.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

I'm confused as to why BLU would be more of a threat than RDM, BLU actually can kill the mob with spells & has alot less MP recovery than RDM does, where as RDM also has alot more on the defensive side (so far as I know) to keep the enemy from really taking them down.

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Blu can get TH2 without THF sub... only real reason I can think of.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

While I largely agree with your argument, your numbers here don't add up. Threnodies have a 2 second cast time, so with 50% spell cast time reduction it would be 1 second each.

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I did not math out the fact that I could do 12 threnodies in a minute. I went outside Jeuno, stood next to a lizard, set a digital timer to 1 minute, then started spamming threnodies as fast as I could until the timer went off. I got 12.

You're under-estimating the delay after the spell casts. Just because a spell has 2 seconds casting time, and I have song cast -50% doesn't mean I can get 60 casts per minute. I can't even get 30.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

/sigh

You had to go and say it. You couldn't resist, and went and said it.

Next dev response: "we understand that job ability procs are actually easier than we had originally intended, so they will be reduced to proc the same as magic".

Then the price of currenecy goes up and people stop making relics.



Blu can get TH2 without THF sub... only real reason I can think of.

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sorry i just cant follow Ramba Ral's example also @ demon6324 generally blu is seen as a much more dangerous DD which generally as a rule is very true but on mobs with low def and assuming the rdm has the gear for it there going to go req it Ralf on the mobs for killer dmg(just look at the unholy amount of mnd a rdm can really stack up ) enough to stack up to blus dmg im not sure.

Eh, I do Dyna as RDM, in my mind its DD power is overall about the same, then again I don't care much for BLU anymore, but in either case I have been doing great damage with my RDM. I just think of RDM as more of a threat overall not only in solo, but in any case just because of the faster casting & much longer lasting MP pool.

to be fair for ja procs, unlike ws and spells, they can't hit multiple mobs.
if the rep used that agrument, it would be more convincing than the "recast" thing to me.

but of course, the whole point is meaningless because BALANCE, so go away, nothing to see here.

WSs can AoE, they nerfed the proc rate for AoE WSs hitting mobs other than the one targeted, do the same with spells.

Man some must have some poorly geared blu's if blu/dnc isn't absolutely destroying dynamis solo. Can have TH and can easily kill any Dynamis mob with one self skillchain using very little mp in a blink of an eye.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

/sigh

You had to go and say it. You couldn't resist, and went and said it.

Next dev response: "we understand that job ability procs are actually easier than we had originally intended, so they will be reduced to proc the same as magic".

Then the price of currenecy goes up and people stop making relics.

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Glad somebody gets it. What was a thread about improving magic procs is now one bitching and whining about how blahblah job is too good at ja proc and which blahblah job is too good at ws procs. Just like how a crab is only good for keeping another crab down, such is the ffxi playerbase, with players pulling down other players to create a common level of mediocrity and frustration. The much vaunted assertion that ffxi has a better community than most other mmos seems so ridiculous when you look at these forums. All I see something akin to a kindergarten class where kids go off on a whining spree when they look over and see someone with a slightly larger cookie or more juice.

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Originally Posted by Okipuit

Hello,

It's an understandable request when reviewing the magic weakness triggering percentages compared to job abilities and weapon skills. The order of proc rates is definitely magic > abilities > WS in order from lowest to highest, so magic is the low end.
The reason why magic proc rate was set at a lower value is because weapon skills require TP, and since they cannot be quickly used over and over again in a single battle we set the activation rate higher. Spells on the other hand have a quick casting time and can be reused at a much faster pace. Therefore, the weakness triggering rate is set lower since the amount of times you can cast is considerably faster. (Abilities are 30 seconds to a couple minutes, so this is in the middle)

We've made adjustments so that the procs occur at their expected values, but since magic spells can be used quickly, there is a remaining impression that weaknesses cannot be exploited.

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Does anyone at SE actually play this game any more?

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Originally Posted by Oakrest

Does anyone at SE actually play this game any more?

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lol... no...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aldersyde

Glad somebody gets it. What was a thread about improving magic procs is now one bitching and whining about how blahblah job is too good at ja proc and which blahblah job is too good at ws procs.

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If that's what they were bitching and whining about, they'd be asking for JA and WS procs to be nerfed. No one is asking for that. They're asking for magic procs to be buffed. DNC is good at JA procs, good for them. PUP is good at WS procs, good for them. Everyone sucks at magic procs.