Empyrean weapon needed adjustments

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Tachi: Fudo is probably SAM's best WS, though Kaiten with a 90 Amano should beat it in some weird situations.

Kaiten (Amano 90) - 3.75 fTP, 60% STR
Fudo (Masa 90) - 3.65 fTP, 60% STR

Fudo is going to win most of the time though, because Masa 90 has 15 STR on it and Amano has.... 35 Acc. Only time Kaiten will be better than Fudo on average is when 15 STR (and the resulting ~12 Attack) fails to make up a .1 fTP difference.

In Abyssea it doesn't stack up, but outside of Abyssea the Empyreans are pretty balanced (ignoring ODD aftermath issues).

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This is all considering a WS at 100TP which for SAM of all jobs doesn't happen a lot. Sekkanoki is an Auto 200tp WS, conserve TP, Meditate, DAs, TAs, Ikishoten procs, Moonshade earring all lean in Fudo's favor and come into play quite often.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

A level 90 empyreal is only attainable to a small amount of harcore players just like relic and mythics, so no.

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Every single lvl 85 empyrean is attainable by anyone with 2 friends. The only lvl 90 that potentially needs more than 3 people is the Briareus path cause of the stuns needed on Apademak. Don't argue, I've killed every Emp dropping NM with 2-3 people.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

As someone with a level 90 Twashtar, I feel inclined to correct you here. It does not~!

You're probably confused because Dancers can use Striking Flourish with AF3+1/2 body and make Rudra's Storm crit even though it doesn't normally. That's a property of the JA and gear, not the weapon, and it works equally well with Dancing Edge or Shark Bite (though it matters much less with them).

The only Aftermath or special effect from Rudra's Storm is the typical 1H AM1/2/3 and Gravity (fairly long-lasting and accurate, fortunately). The WS and Gravity effect are both available with the Daka +1/2, so really it's just the AM1/2/3, which only applies to the main hand.


Boooo ODD aftermath setup! Let it proc on both hands! It would still be less powerful than 2H Empyrean aftermath:
(1H Empyrean DPS * ODD rate + Offhand DPS * ODD rate)/2 < 2H Empyrean DPS*ODD rate
as long as Empyrean DPS > Offhand DPS (always true unless you're offhanding a level 90 relic or something).

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no ur wrong

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Every single lvl 85 empyrean is attainable by anyone with 2 friends. The only lvl 90 that potentially needs more than 3 people is the Briareus path cause of the stuns needed on Apademak. Don't argue, I've killed every Emp dropping NM with 2-3 people.

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You can duo a mythic easily.

Yeah you're just trolling now.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

You can duo a mythic easily.

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Hmmmm last I heard, minimum requirement to enter salvage was 3 ppl? Also, its awesome knowing its possible to duo Odin, Gurfurler the Menacing, Medusa, and Mamool Beastman king (forgot the name).

Mythic is not good at mage utility so maybe emp can try a shot at it? or do you expect SE to do great changes to mythics?

Maybe some need buff if they do not outperform other weapons like magians of that type but that is hard to believe. I seen futo outside abyssea with just the futo only (emp NQ) and it was good damage. I would hear comments like that mob is strong to everything… but not to futo.

Can someone explain what the main objective to this thread or is it joke?

The main objective of the thread is to get emps the adjustments they deserve.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

The main objective of the thread is to get emps the adjustments they deserve.

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Yeah a nice nerf for them would indeed be awsome. I'd say lets reduce the odd aftermath to 100tp = 10% 200tp 12.5% 300tp 15%

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

As it is now, every Empyrean is essentially the same weapon.

Build TP to 100, 200, 300, get an identical aftermath. There aren't anything that focuses on job abilities or traits, like mythics, and there's no great special effect, like on relics (Increases critical hits on Ragnarok, Enhances counter on Spharai, Amano's ability to weaken attacks, etc.)

That being said, I think it would add uniqueness to Empyrean weapons giving each of them its own specific special quality to separate them from one another. DMG wise, they're in the middle of relics and mythics and on each end of that, you have enhancing qualities to either job abilities or the weapon itself.

Empyrean weapons should also have this.

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I do not understand what you want emp weapons to do, it is too vague.

can you be more detail? what weapons you expect to be booted and how?

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Originally Posted by Michaeluk

Yeah a nice nerf for them would indeed be awsome. I'd say lets reduce the odd aftermath to 100tp = 10% 200tp 12.5% 300tp 15%

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Not really. 100 tp = 10%? Triple procs are 5% on mandau, spharai, etc, which is the same as getting double damage 10% of the time and no ws is required for that and it's all the time, not for a limited amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

I do not understand what you want emp weapons to do, it is too vague.

can you be more detail? what weapons you expect to be booted and how?

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Well in general, Byrth summed it up pretty nicely

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Currently 2H Empyreans get the same ODD% as 1H Empyreans, though ODD can proc on all of their swings compared to 50% of a dual wielded empyrean's swings. Monk counts as a 1H Empyrean in this case, as ODD can only proc on their second fist. The obvious solution here is to give ODD to both hands for 1H users instead of confining it to the main hand. The same should be done for Mythic 1H Aftermath level 3s, as it is a similar problem.

The second big issues with Empyreans (and Mythics, I think) are that 300TP Aftermaths do not overwrite themselves. 100TP overwrites 100TP. 200TP overwrites 100TP. 300TP overwrites 100 or 200TP, but 300TP doesn't overwrite 300TP. Assuming someone wants to keep an activated level 3 Aftermath, they need to start TPing up to 300TP before their aftermath wears off. One or two lucky Triple Attacks with a 2H Empyrean or Mythic can put you at 300TP early and waiting for your aftermath to wear off so you can reapply it. It would be easier if you could just WS as soon as you get 300TP and reset the timer like you can for 100TP. I can't imagine this would be hard to fix, and would allow for smoother gameplay.

My final issue is with multiple aftermaths at once. There's about one (quasi-)practical application of this, and that's Mythic GKT with Relic bow. I know someone with both, and he can't have both Aftermaths active at once despite being able to equip both weapons at once and use both weaponskills. Why limit it?

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A good place to start is fixing what's currently wrong w/ them.

After that, I'm not asking for anything specific. It seems vague because it's open ended. Each relic, mythic, and emp have an aftermath. Mythics enhance JAs and/or job traits etc and have stats. Relics enhance things (like crit hit rate, or counter) and some have stats (or just multiple things they enhance). Emps just have stats. They should get something extra, just as relics and mythics have.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Not really. 100 tp = 10%? Triple procs are 5% on mandau, spharai, etc, which is the same as getting double damage 10% of the time and no ws is required for that and it's all the time, not for a limited amount of time.

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K

it should be 100 tp 5%, 200 tp 10% 300 TP 15% then

not like it is hard to get tp every 30 seconds to keep it up

has to be joke thread.....

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Originally Posted by Rambus

it should be 100 tp 5%, 200 tp 10% 300 TP 15% then

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And what are you basing this on?

If it were going to be such a small percent, should just be on perma, lol. Same as with the relics.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Not really. 100 tp = 10%? Triple procs are 5% on mandau, spharai, etc, which is the same as getting double damage 10% of the time and no ws is required for that and it's all the time, not for a limited amount of time.

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2 hand weapons don't get triple procs, something like 6-8% double proc isn't it. What i said above is what they should be nerfed down to, not like it matters empyreans currently get 30,40,50% odd and yet you feel they need buffing maybe that car accident you were in a while back affected your brain slightly.

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not like it is hard to get tp every 30 seconds to keep it up

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It is when you're avoiding ruby lights

5% is an exaggeration. It's more like 3-4%. It's also a different type of triple damage. Mandau triple damage seems to triple the base damage of your weapon or something along those lines. Emp ODD is a direct 2x multiplier of the damage you would have done. Also the Relic damage increase can only proc on the first swing of any attack round. For example the 2nd and 3rd attacks of a triple attack can not gain the mandau damage bonus while an emp could proc on all 3 swings.

The unfortunate thing about this discussion is that very few players have both a relic and an empyrean. Being one of those people I feel I have a certain understanding and I'm more trying to enlighten than I am trying to debate.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Byrth, I do agree with you on overwriting aftermaths. Even though it does add a new dimension to using the weapon it's more annoying than anything. ODD on your offhand I can't agree with though. You are dual wielding for the insane damage increase from the delay reduction already. It's a trade off. Sure 2Hs get the ODD on all hits but they also have 20-30% less delay reduction in most situations. There's also the potential stat increases from your offhand like Triple att +3% or Waltz potency or w/e. If you want ODD on all hits then you have to give up your DW delay and sub a shield =)

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2H Empyreans (like Ukon) also WS harder due to their higher base damage, which makes up a lot of ground. This is less true inside abyssea than it will be outside. 1H weapons have always had the DPS advantage, and 2H weapons make up the difference with much stronger WSs. Denying 1H weapons OADD on the offhand makes the Empyrean Aftermath that much less attractive. If Rudra's gave 30% ODD to both hands, I'd be using it over Dancing Edge outside of Abyssea. As it is, Dancing Edge is better for my overall damage.

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Originally Posted by Taint

This is all considering a WS at 100TP which for SAM of all jobs doesn't happen a lot. Sekkanoki is an Auto 200tp WS, conserve TP, Meditate, DAs, TAs, Ikishoten procs, Moonshade earring all lean in Fudo's favor and come into play quite often.

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Ah yeah. It loses even at 100TP due to the 15 STR, but it gets crushed with Moonshade and stuff.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

And what are you basing this on?

If it were going to be such a small percent, should just be on perma, lol. Same as with the relics.

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your own quote, can't you see?

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Not really. 100 tp = 10%? Triple procs are 5% on mandau, spharai, etc, which is the same as getting double damage 10% of the time and no ws is required for that and it's all the time, not for a limited amount of time.

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You are being too vauge you are not offering real fixes , are you sure you are not doing this as bait?

what is current ODD rate on emp?

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Originally Posted by Michaeluk

2 hand weapons don't get triple procs, something like 6-8% double proc isn't it. What i said above is what they should be nerfed down to, not like it matters empyreans currently get 30,40,50% odd and yet you feel they need buffing maybe that car accident you were in a while back affected your brain slightly.

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Well, did you see me post a 2handed weapon when I was naming things?

But if you want to put it that way, they could even it out and keep the double damage procs on the 2handed weapons ODD for emps and change the ODD to OTD (triple damage) for non 2handers.

Great idea.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

your own quote, can't you see?



You are being too vauge you are not offering real fixes , are you sure you are not doing this as bait?

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I'm not a game designer. SE would be better at coming up w/ specific things to add than I would. I'm just saying they're left out as they have the least amount of uniqueness to them.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Well, did you see me post a 2handed weapon when I was naming things?

But if you want to put it that way, they could even it out and keep the double damage procs on the 2handed weapons ODD for emps and change the ODD to OTD (triple damage) for non 2handers.

Great idea.

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Bait all you like Tiger i'm sure se will put relics back on top @ 99 hopefully the update in May shows the start of this process.

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Originally Posted by Michaeluk

2 hand weapons don't get triple procs, something like 6-8% double proc isn't it. What i said above is what they should be nerfed down to, not like it matters empyreans currently get 30,40,50% odd and yet you feel they need buffing maybe that car accident you were in a while back affected your brain slightly.

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ODD rate really needs to be tone down if they can go off each hit, not just first one like relics.

town the ODD greatly like i said or ODD on first hit only, what do you perffer?

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Originally Posted by Michaeluk

Bait all you like Tiger i'm sure se will put relics back on top @ 99 hopefully the update in May shows the start of this process.

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I'm sure some relics will go on top, however, there are some, that unless get RADICAL adjustments, won't see the light of day for DD'ing.

For example, Spharai. They can boost Final Heaven all they want, even after a 25% hike, it still only matches asuran. W/o a new crit WS, nothing is going to stand to smite in combination w/ Impetus, which is like a mini razed ruins that you can take w/ you outside of abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

ODD rate really needs to be tone down if they can go off each hit, not just first one like relics.

town the ODD greatly like i said or ODD on first hit only, what do you perffer?

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Well, DW emps can't make the offhand proc and vereth still only proc on one fist.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

2H Empyreans (like Ukon) also WS harder due to their higher base damage, which makes up a lot of ground. This is less true inside abyssea than it will be outside. 1H weapons have always had the DPS advantage, and 2H weapons make up the difference with much stronger WSs. Denying 1H weapons OADD on the offhand makes the Empyrean Aftermath that much less attractive. If Rudra's gave 30% ODD to both hands, I'd be using it over Dancing Edge outside of Abyssea. As it is, Dancing Edge is better for my overall damage.

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Are you basing this on DNC? I thought we were talking about THF. DNC isn't a strictly DD job and shouldn't be doing anywhere near the damage a true DD is doing. If you are on THF your rudras are going to be on par with or better than Ukko's outside of abyssea. You have to expect discrepancies between different classes of jobs. Atmas have made us forget that we aren't all true DD classes.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Well, DW emps can't make the offhand proc and vereth still only proc on one fist.

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so how does ODD work on emps? I was told they can go off on all hits like barrage?

or is that only on double attacks they can go off on and such?'

can you double attack a jump and have ODD hit on both hits?

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Originally Posted by Rambus

ODD rate really needs to be tone down if they can go off each hit, not just first one like relics.

town the ODD greatly like i said or ODD on first hit only, what do you perffer?

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I'd happily settle with the hidden dmg boosts on relics been increased. Failing that i think most aftermaths could do with a complete overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Well, DW emps can't make the offhand proc and vereth still only proc on one fist.

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There's a very good reason for this. I've explained it already. HtH is the only one you have a point on.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

so how does ODD work on emps? I was told they can go off on all hits like barrage?

or is that only on double attacks they can go off on and such?

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I haven't paid attention, personally. You'd have to ask Byrth or someone else if they want to speak up. I just know for certain that they can't proc on both fists for h2h. (the same as Spharai, which can also proc on 1 fist for triple damage)

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Originally Posted by Rambus

so how does ODD work on emps? I was told they can go off on all hits like barrage?

or is that only on double attacks they can go off on and such?'

can you double attack a jump and have ODD hit on both hits?

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They have various odd from 30-50% depending on tp when the user weaponskills. Odd can't proc on ws.

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Originally Posted by Michaeluk

I'd happily settle with the hidden dmg boosts on relics been increased. Failing that i think most aftermaths could do with a complete overhaul.

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It's mostly the WSs that need changing imo. Catastrophe, Kaiten, and Mercy Stroke are the only ones that were really good in the first place. Most are complete crap and have always been outclassed by standard WSs. Relic WSs should do more than empyrean but the field would be leveled by the crazy ODD aftermath.

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Originally Posted by Michaeluk

They have various odd from 30-50% depending on tp when the user weaponskills. Odd can't proc on ws.

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I know that but I need to know how they act with DW or ODD on double attacks to make an informed statment on it.

I herd this one friend say it can ODD on any barrage arrow making it do crazy damage when you compare it to relic or mythic.

what about double attack off jumps? can ODD proc on each hit?

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I haven't paid attention, personally. You'd have to ask Byrth or someone else if they want to speak up. I just know for certain that they can't proc on both fists for h2h. (the same as Spharai, which can also proc on 1 fist for triple damage)

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While spharai can do a triple dmg the proc rate it is such a low proc rate its laughable you feel the need to compare them, Verethragna blows spharai out of the water in dd terms thanks to it's odd aftermath and highley damaging weaponskill.

I was told the ODD doesn't proc on jumps at all in a drg thread and I know personally they can't proc on mnk's kick attacks.

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Originally Posted by Michaeluk

While spharai can do a triple dmg the proc rate it is such a low proc rate its laughable you feel the need to compare them, Verethragna blows spharai out of the water in dd terms thanks to it's odd aftermath and highley damaging weaponskill.

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It's only the WS, really. It was mathed out that if Spharai had Victory smite, they'd beat Vereth, even when looking at ODD.

and I don't see how the triple proc rate is laughable. It's only 5%, yes, but that's equiv to 10% double damage procs at full time. I wouldn't call that laughable. Take those procs away and you'd deal a considerable amount damage less over all.

I disagree with changing Emp's at all.

In effect currently the power order goes like this:-
Empyrean > Relic > Mythic

Augments / aftermath etc
Empyrean > Relic >=< Mythic (depending on the weapon, some mythics have better augs then their relic counterparts)

Attainability (From easiest to hardest)
Empyrean > Relic > Mythic.

The proper power order based on difficulty to get should essentially be:
Relic > Mythic > Empyrean

Empyreans do not need to be adjusted at all. Relics and Mythics do, drastically. Overpowered or not - I believe some people are forgetting that proud relic owners have essentially spent ~200Mil gil on their weapons. Empyreans have been obtained *practically* overnight.

My vote - buff up relics and mythics for the proud owners out there. Leave us less fortunate people that havnt had the time or patience with the lesser of the 3x ultimate weapons.

I can confirm first hand ODD cant proc on Jumps but Neither can Gungirs hidden effect. I can also confirm first hand the empyrean ODD will proc on any hit of a double attack or triple attack.

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Attainability (From easiest to hardest)
Empyrean > Mythic > Relic.

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WRONG.

Mythics are way more difficult to get than relics.

Most of the Emp weapons do 1.5-3x the peak WS dmg (speaking of in Abyssea), ODD processes way more often than a relics 2.5-3x dmg hidden effect, and you people honestly think they need a BOOST?!? The OP even says Relics are over powered?!?! How the hell is a 3% difference in base damage overpowered compared to a weapon that can ODD way more often? How are the WS of a Relic better than Emp when the add effects are hardly noticeable and there is no real buff to the WS outside the Stats for the WS themselves? Not to mention that for Emp more tp = longer aftermath and increases the WS dmg/crit chance/ignore def while for Relics more tp only adds a longer aftermath.

To the person complaining about Fudo having a lower Base TP Mod, take a look at the description of your WS:

Tachi: Fudo
Description: Deals double damage. Damage varies with TP. Masamune: Aftermath.

Tachi: Kaiten
Description: Additional effect: temporarily increases amount of TP stored with each hit.

Honestly, if most of you aren't trolls then you really need to do your homework on how vastly better your weapons are compared to relics right now. There is only 3 or so Emp WS that are equal/comparable to Relic WS, but their ODD aftermath still makes them better than the relic in the long run.