yes but people are trying to fix pld.Quote:
Originally Posted by Runespider
Nin can tank fine as it is now.
Going w/ this system, there would still be no use for a pld.
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03-18-2011, 05:01 AMCream_Soda
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03-18-2011, 06:26 AMGadanaeSpoken from a NIN Abyssea tank. I have minimal problems holding hate in Abyssea but as stated before it's all bout Atma. RR, GH, and Apoc is what I normally use. Occasionally I will substitute GH for VV. Depends on the mob, or my mood. I can and do pull hate completely off PLD tanks in Abyssea with my setup, and hold it off them with ease. But we're also not talking about the good geared end game tanks. Those are a little bit harder to pull hate from, if not impossible. PLD tank in Abyssea is still a viable option in my opinion, coming from an end-game linkshell where PLD tanks with Aegis, etc. main tank everything we have done. And they hold hate just fine, for the most part. Every PLD I know suffers from losing hate to high damage WS's from a DD. It's just common sense folks, if you have a DD come in and lay out 2-5k damage on a WS, you are going to lose hate. Simple fix, let stupid DD's die that have to flex their muscles and do God-like damage, instead of being safe and coming in only to WS a mob and stand out. That's why there is regain Atma's. It's all about the mechanics of fighting in this game. Start of a fight is the time to allow tanks to gain emnity, and when you are dealing with smart people, they realize that a tank is a tank for a reason, to keep the entire alliance alive. So most DD that have brains do not purposely try to pull hate off the tank. BLM has Emnity Douse for this reason, though I find myself most times having to yell at BLM's to use it, almost as if they forget they have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alderin
Simple answer, let the tanks tank. They are built to evade/take the damage. Let them do their job and if you are losing hate to a DD, maybe that DD needs to stay the hell off the mob.
If anything, maybe give more DD jobs the hate cleansing abilities that DRG and BLM have (i.e. Super Jump, Emnity Douse) so when they do WS and pull hate they can drop it just as quick. -
03-18-2011, 06:33 AMGreatguardian
If a DD dies because they're dealing damage, either they, or their WHM, are doing something wrong. If a DD sits out on the sidelines and comes in only to WS, they may as well not be there at all. PDT sets exist for a reason; if the melee doesn't have one, that's the problem, not the fact that they're dealing damage (ie, doing their job).
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03-18-2011, 06:42 AMGadanaeWhile I agree that the term DD or Damage Dealer, implies that their job is to do damage, DD does not imply doing damage consistently or staying in on a mob that when fed TP does nasty nasty TP moves left and right. Smart parties and alliances do what they can to NOT feed a mob TP, because they realize that feeding a mob TP usually can end up in full alliance death much quicker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
In my personal opinion any DD in Abyssea that has regain Atma's should accept sitting on the sidelines until a mob is staggered appropriately, and then only full attacking a mob when given the word to do so by a tank. Any DD that feels that this does not "conform" with doing their "job" is probably sufferering from a huge ego disorder and feels that taking hate off tanks and making it harder on the mages is "fun", and therefore, is an idiot. It might be fun for you, but it hell on everyone else in your alliance and you do not endear yourself to people like that. Every successful end-game linkshell that I have ever been in for the most employs this concept. If you don't like standing there building your TP and only coming into WS then maybe you shouldn't play a DD job.
As stated before, let the tanks tank.
And also, as stated before, that instead of adjusting hate control for tanks, maybe giving DD jobs hate cleansing abilites like DRG and BLM have would be a more viable option. -
03-18-2011, 06:48 AMCream_SodaIf you have THAT many people at once, you split up and fight more NMs. There's no reason for any number of people to just sit there and do nothing.Quote:
Smart parties and alliances do what they can to NOT feed a mob TP,
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03-18-2011, 06:52 AMGreatguardianOur experiences must differ, then. Every successful Endgame shell I know of laughs heartily at the concept of DDs sitting around using Regain and Meditate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadanae
Ninja and Monk may have some defensive edges over Warrior and Dragoon, but none of these jobs are so frail that they would 'Make a mage's life miserable' by going in and taking some damage. Sure, I wouldn't be dumb enough to give 4-5 melees to a single WHM. Yeah, that would make their lives suck. But who the hell does that any more anyways?
If you have more than 4-5 Melees on a single monster anyways, that's just a total waste. Split people up and let 2-3 DDs handle things on one NM while 2-3 DDs handle another NM. Yes, I'm including Nin and Pld as DDs. Pld can hold its own fine with the proper setup. It's not going to outdamage a MNK, WAR, or NIN, but neither will most other jobs in the game. Expecting melees not to get hate is dumb when any DD worth his salt will cap hate in 1-2 WS (Including NIN and PLD). -
03-18-2011, 06:53 AMVinc
Refresh my memory, why do we want there to be one tank (PLD)?
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03-18-2011, 06:54 AMGreatguardianI'm more concerned with why people think PLD can't hold hate. I mean yeah it's a subpar DD, but CdC isn't much worse than Blade: Hi =/. Enmity is the least of PLD's concerns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinc
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03-18-2011, 06:59 AMGadanae/agree. That's why my linkshell is usually fighting 2 NM's at once and we break up into 2 balanced teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cream_Soda
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03-18-2011, 07:04 AMGlamdring
the comments about pld being obsolete really only apply to Abyssea, they still seem to function just fine on the new 90-ish mobs outside. The big problem is that while other jobs all got huge atma boosts all of the paladin atmas seem to address survivability without addressing enmity. Either give pld an atma that puts their hate threshold through the roof (and that would be undesireable for anyone in a non-traditional meat shield build) or put some enmity down on the DD atmas; many of the casting atma builds seem to include a bit already. Give pld a JA that is an AoE Accomplice type thing, something! Paladin was clearly built with 1 major purpose, to blood tank, and the job has not been redefined for a different role. Make damage resisted off the max a mob could do cause a hate spike (i.e. your def being used will trigger hate). there's alot of ways to go that SE could explore.
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03-18-2011, 07:06 AMGadanaeI agree wholeheartedly with your post. My linkshell runs things exactly the way you mentioned. Except for DD's going "full out" on mobs. We prefer to allow our tanks to build high emnity first, then we send DD's in, based on healer's MP, etc. And it really depends on the mob as well. When you are dealing with a seal NM that quite literally can be killed in less then a minute with 2-3 DD's, then no, there isn't a reason to take that kind of caution. I was referring to mobs that are much more difficult then that (i.e. Rani or Raja). When these mobs are fed a large amount of TP they wipe alliances. It's best to keep the TP feed to a minimum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
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03-18-2011, 07:06 AMGreatguardianA Paladin with Apoc, RR, and GH atmas using Chant du Cynge will cap hate without issue. It's not like VIT atmas are doing jack anyways =/Quote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
Edit: For Rani or Raja, I wouldn't bring an alliance anyways. I mean, I suppose if people need the win they can sit on the sidelines, but that's not really counting towards the total number of people. Mnk, War, Nin, Whm, Brd, maybe a second Whm for safety can handle both mobs while proc'ing both Red and Blue and not having much trouble. If I wanted to be extra super careful I could just have either the Nin or War stand out of AoE range in case someone got ganked. Less is more, and it seems we agree on this, but there's really no point adding random DDs into the alli in the first place. Either they're leeching the win, which is fine, or they're fighting; middle ground there just makes things more complicated.
Personally I don't bother waiting for any particular person to build hate, since any DD I know is more than capable of handling themselves if they take hate (and since we'll all cap it anyways it will happen). The only thing that bothers me is this "DDs are squishy and die if the mob looks at them so DO NOT DO DAMAGE OR YOU WILL TAKE HATE AND MAKE US WIPE" sort of mentality I've been seeing all over the place. Heck, people in the Haste thread mentioned being unable to use the proper sub on their jobs because their linkshells will scream at them if they deal any damage. That is just plain stupid. -
03-18-2011, 07:06 AMGlamdringnoone said we do, but pld isn't really set-up to fulfil any other role well. What pld are asking for is to be in a viable role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinc
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03-18-2011, 07:10 AMGlamdring
They could also change the mob behavior so it only changes target if something PASSES the current highest hate, not ties it. If a pld had already hit the hate cap then the mob would not change target as often as long as they keep thier hate from being reduced somehow.
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03-18-2011, 07:12 AMGadanaeAn interesting concept. /approve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
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03-18-2011, 07:15 AMrog
Not sure how either one of these things would help pld.
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03-18-2011, 07:15 AMGreatguardian
I'm still lost as to why a PLD needs more Enmity anyways. Any Chant du Cygne PLD with proper atmas and gear can max their Enmity without any issues at all.
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03-18-2011, 07:17 AMrogThey don't, and the only ones who don't seem to realize that is plds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
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03-18-2011, 07:20 AMVincQuote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
Are you sure you're not asking for Pld to be the only tank? It looks like it to me. Pld should stay dead if it means another nerf for the rest of the jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
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03-18-2011, 07:22 AMGadanaeYou sound like you play a DD job. Forgive me if I've assumed wrong. I sympathize actually. My 90's (that I actively play, are well geared, capped skills and I actually KNOW what i'm doing on that job) are MNK NIN THF BLM WHM DNC RNG. I am a lead tank in my linkshell, and yes, we evasion tank everything we kill. Evasion tanking though is touchy at best. While it can be easily done in Abyssea on the majority of everything there, hate degration happens very quickly, especially if you have DD's beating on the mob right along with you, and popping off high damage WS's. Hence the reason why we wait to send DD's into the fray. With a PLD tanking though, this scenario should greatly change, I agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
Also let me say, that yes, a DD sitting on the sidelines (I do it on MNK all the time in Abyssea) is boring, and very much seems to be a waste of time. But once again, it all depends on the situation. A PLD tank tanking? Enough healers in the alliance to cover the DD's taking hate? In a low-man situation this is not always available. But again, I see your point. -
03-18-2011, 07:33 AMGreatguardian
I have MNK, PLD, NIN, SAM, COR, WHM, RDM on my main character so I can most certainly see things from a Pld's perspective; which is part of why I'm so baffled as to the actual complaints of so many PLDs on these boards. My Mnk is easily my best geared job, but none of the others are slouches (aside from lolSam, I've let that go downhill a bit admittedly) and my PLD was, until the level increase, one of the main tanks in my linkshell assuming we weren't short on WHMs (when it became a choice between sending in a backup tank or plain not having a healer). Whether I'm Counter-tanking on Mnk, Eva tanking on Nin (which I make sure to maintain capped Haste with), or tanking on Pld, Enmity is the least of my concerns and hardly changes between the 3. All 3 can easily do upwards of 3,000 damage per WS, so even though my MNK destroys my Nin and Pld in terms of overall Damage, it doesn't make any sort of difference from an Enmity standpoint because all 3 jobs will have capped Enmity by the second WS.
Sure, I may take MNK and NIN out more often than my PLD, but that's because my MNK has Blue procs and the highest damage potential of the 3, and my NIN has Red/Grellow procs. If I needed PLD procs I'd bring PLD, but the only Reds it has that a NIN wouldn't are Freezebite and Sunburst. But since PLD lacks Shadow of Death, NIN+PLD won't cover all 13 Reds. War+Pld obviously won't cover them either, as anything PLD has, WAR has too. The only time I can see myself having to bring PLD for Red is if the War or Nin was missing skills and needed gaps filled in; but that's both rare and dumb.
If PLD wants a bonus that makes it more attractive, look for offensive abilities. It has an A+ skill weapon and monster weaponskill access, but since its best sub is Ninja (which also has no offensive JAs as a sub), it has practically no active abilities that would benefit its damage output. -
03-18-2011, 09:07 AMRunespider
Ultimately Square don't really care about balance anymore anyway, not like they have for a while. So the job system being skewed makes very little difference.
The emnity things I mentioned would be a good step but a lot would still need to be added to the jobs to make it work (like damage mitigation auras or something to allow you to put more onto a mob that would normally be a pain), especially for pld, they won't do any of this in reality though and I can see things pretty much just staying as they are now.
Only thing I can see bringing pld back to some manner of importance in reality is if they add mobs which have a lot of -dmg taken and/or are difficult to gain hate on in other ways, Dark Ixion was a decent example of this in the past I think. That will make the hate tools more important than the dmg they do, thats about the best I can see Square actually doing. They won't rework the hate system or change much at this point. -
03-18-2011, 09:22 AMBillnye
I wrote up a little tidbit in the pld section here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Better-Balance
Hope to help shed some light on the situation. Would love some feedback on it. :) -
06-20-2011, 06:33 PMMordanthos
All i see are repeated responses about PLD enmity isnt the problem, blah blah you can cap hate easily with CdC. Yeah thats not the problem, PLD is an awesome tank in Abyssea, they literally take little to 0 dmg. The issue isnt being able to cap it, the issue is that the cap is tooooooo low. Yeah thats amazing you can cap hate with that CdC, but not too long after you cap it, is someone else going to cap it, and then what? It's just going to bounce back and forward, and its at this point of bouncing back and forward, where the job is broken, because now, there is no "real way" to "keep" the enemy on you. If not for the threat cap being so low, PLD would be outstanding and the best tank by far, they mitigate dmg to rediculous proportions. And i dont give a crap if a MNK can tank with pure brute force and survive with cure bombs, wouldnt it be easier to just barely have to heal the pld at all "WHILE" a monk beats the crap out of something.
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06-21-2011, 12:41 AMVoldYou can't just up the hate cap without breaking the rest of the game. Believe it or not, and this might cause heart attacks, but Abyssea isn't going to remain the be all end all content. And the way you fix this issue is to design content that doesn't give mages unlimited MP and melees god mode. Plain and simple. It doesn't have to be content everyone does day in and out like exp. End game content is perfectly fine. And according to how reps talk this is exactly how they are going to go about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordanthos
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06-21-2011, 03:37 AMRAIST
They actually could do a simple tweak for PLD. Give them a trait/ability at 90 that somehow gives them extra headroom on the cap. If the enmity counter is restricted because of the bit count on the value, then implement a soft cap that restricts the cap to all jobs to a lower value, and give PLD a trait/ability that makes it go to the hard cap. Let Volatile hate still spike to the hard cap, it will fall quickly and that player would be at matched hate only briefly while it decays and they fall back to the soft cap again. Granted, this could be a nightmare to code with the volatile spikes being allowed to still hit the cap briefly, but it would be the answer to preserving balance.
Example:
Value is an 8 bit field, logically limited to run 0-255.
Place a software cap at the 7th bit, so by default everyone can only go to 223.
PLD gets a trait or JA that activates that 8th bit only for them, allowing them to go to 255.
Volatile hate from a WS, provoke, Nuke, etc that has a fast decay rate is still allowed to spike briefly to that 8th bit, but because of the nature of volatile hate, it would quickly decay and jobs would once again be capped to 223.
That way, the only way anyone would take hate off the PLD at level 90 would once again be only for the volatile spikes, but (if the PLD is doing their job) the PLD would be able to reclaim and hold the hate a gain. The catch with this idea is coming up a way to manage the volatile spikes from jobs without the PLD JA/Trait so that it can still spike to the hard cap. Might need to be something where when anyone does something to hit the cap, a check is made to see if the PLD JA/Trait is present for that player. If present, hate is capped and plays by normal rules, if not then it is capped for 30 seconds and then is immediately dropped to the soft cap.
Alternatively, they could just increase the decay of hate maybe. Means PLD will have to work harder to maintain the caps, and it wouldn't be as much a sure thing...but it could help balance things out a bit more.
Edit: to clarify ways to balance volatile hate spiking in original idea -
06-21-2011, 09:41 AMAtomic_Skull7 bits is 0-127 Every bit you add onto a binary number doubles the maximum possible number that can be represented.Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIST
Also, Volatile and Cumulative enmity both cap at 10,000 units each. -
06-21-2011, 02:15 PMRAIST
brain fart... havent' done binary translation in my head since high school. But you get the idea. It actually goes to like 14 bits or something for each of VE/CE according to some of the guides out there. The point is, there is single point that they can easily cut off and isolate just for PLD to use if they wanted. Probly not the high bit though now that I think about it--that would be a swing of like 8k or something.
But they could just as easily put a numerical value in the database for CE to cap at like 8192 for all other jobs, but let PLD scale to 10k CE with a job trait/JA active. That way, other jobs would still be able to grabe hate brielfy from VE, but not hold it because of CE unless that PLD is not keeping that CE above 8192 with that trait/JA.