Suggested Adjustments to Legion

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

My point was it hasn't been adopted by the majority of the playerbase. I'm looking at Nyzul early evening on a weekend on Lakshmi, and there are 0 parties there. It might not lie as barren as Legion does, but it's still pretty barren.

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Totally agree, I have to say, accessibility is the thing that lack the most after the great spectacular blockbuster that is Abyssea. Everything post abyssea is not very fun, accessible, or enjoyable. With no new content coming, the game is now stagnate again and become a gear collecting activity and grinding for weapons. Nothing else to do but grind grind and grind. Some of the new contents are extremely bad - risk/reward ratio are not even enticing enough for people to do them. Once you finish all the missions, max few jobs merit wise and got your empty gears +2, pretty much time to take a break from the game for 6-8 months till they come with another new content.

There is so much left to do in this game. I'm bored atm, so I'm going to go gear my drg PROPERLY, via healing breath gear, ws gear, tp set, NOT JUST +2 set. If you do a job properly and don't play 15 hours a day, this game should keep you well occupied. Each relic for each job should take 3 months minimum for the average player. Having +2 on a job shouldn't make you feel accomplished :/ Do legion because it offers something new and fun. Do I play basketball or football or halo because it offers rewards? NO, I play it for fun. Get the damn point of the game. It's not a job.

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Originally Posted by Fupafighter

NO, I play it for fun. Get the damn point of the game. It's not a job.

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This is the mentality of pink geared players. And people like you will never understand what we are saying because it requires thought.

Yes, it is a "game." as you say, but being able to see the big picture in terms of what is broken in legion is the point of this thread. Keep your useless drg out of this thread.

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This is the mentality of pink geared players. And people like you will never understand what we are saying because it requires thought.

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You say this like there's something wrong with it. Not everybody wants to play this game all day every day.

There is a place in the game for everyone regardless of play intensity.

I haven't owned pink since abyssea came out lol.

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Originally Posted by Gippo

This is the mentality of pink geared players. And people like you will never understand what we are saying because it requires thought.

Yes, it is a "game." as you say, but being able to see the big picture in terms of what is broken in legion is the point of this thread. Keep your useless drg out of this thread.

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My point is I'm not going to sit there getting all pissed off if something doesn't drop to me. That's called greed. I only do legion occasionally for fun when I see it in a shout, regardless if I will get reward or not. I have everything I desire except relics and random gear that I don't even know exists yet. You shouldn't have to get reward to feel like you're having fun. You're obviously not seeing the big picture.

Trying to find excuse for mediocre gear. The reason abyssea worked is precisely because anyone could get the gear. Anyone saying grinding seals or cards or scales in abyssea is fun is an hypocrite. The appeal of "new gear" is what makes people keep playing the game, and that's the real fun. The only reason you play is b/c you aim at better stuff, and you admitted it in your post haha.

The lack of reward is not the only reason legion is dead. At 75 when we had 2x more servers and players, people could not get 36 people for AV attempts (2 full allies was the intended way to kill this BS NM), even though getting @ AV camp is a matter of ~5 minutes. So why would people be able to gather 36 in 2012 ? This is the main issue right now imo, waiting for 36 in not fun..

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Trying to find excuse for mediocre gear. The reason abyssea worked is precisely because anyone could get the gear. Anyone saying grinding seals or cards or scales in abyssea is fun is an hypocrite. The appeal of "new gear" is what makes people keep playing the game, and that's the real fun. The only reason you play is b/c you aim at better stuff, and you admitted it in your post haha.

The lack of reward is not the only reason legion is dead. At 75 when we had 2x more servers and players, people could not get 36 people for AV attempts (2 full allies was the intended way to kill this BS NM), even though getting @ AV camp is a matter of ~5 minutes. So why would people be able to gather 36 in 2012 ? This is the main issue right now imo, waiting for 36 in not fun..

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Alot of people do play just to help and have fun even if there is no reward man. For example, I just decided to gear drg. 4/5 seals and some random blm I don't even know, stayed for a complete set of hand seals even when he didn't need anything and I didn't know him. People do that kind of stuff all the time. It's not always about the reward. In my opinion, that's what makes people greedy. It's playstyle. Some people play for the goals set daily such as say getting their 99 relic upgrade this day or farming a set amount of gil or what not, and then there are people like me and that blm, who if someone offers something, we will join just for the hell of it. Not saying you're a bad player for not being like us, it's just our playstyle and what we find more enjoyable, having fun and making friends. We don't expect results.

Not sure why people are focusing on the 36-man chamber when they've already announced their intentions to separate 18-man and 36-man play. We already know 36-man PUGs won't develop anyway, as that chamber requires the communication across allies that can only be provided by a LS pearl. Besides, who in their right mind would want to lot against 35 strangers for each Head or Feet Abjuration??

The event needs to be made accessible to 18-man alliances like Voidwatch was, and that chamber should be nerfed in terms of HP and difficulty ASAP as they've announced. I think the HP in the 36-man version needs to be lowered a bit and stuff like Heavy Metal Plates/Pouches/Riftxxx could be added, but unfortunately Camate didn't address that. Adding more buyable items with Legion points is a good step, perhaps add the Head/Feet Abjurations so the non-LS people can at least work toward stuff instead of trying to outlot 17 other people for each drop.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You say this like there's something wrong with it. Not everybody wants to play this game all day every day.

There is a place in the game for everyone regardless of play intensity.

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I didn't know playing casually meant you were mentally retarded. Kinda odd of you to make that conclusion. I say this, because even the most basic of human thought could tell you that a Walhara turban set will likely beat full pink.

You can play for 1 hour a day and still be smart enough to know when something is garbage. Time spent playing is no excuse for being terrible. The only excuse for full pink is "I can count to Potato". end of story.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

The lack of reward is not the only reason legion is dead. At 75 when we had 2x more servers and players, people could not get 36 people for AV attempts (2 full allies was the intended way to kill this BS NM), even though getting @ AV camp is a matter of ~5 minutes. So why would people be able to gather 36 in 2012 ? This is the main issue right now imo, waiting for 36 in not fun..

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Lack of reward is the big stall with Legion right now as it comes down to loot at the end of the day. No one would really care about the difficulty issues if the mobs actually rewarded with items people deem valuable in 2012 which largely boils down to currency, heavy metal or alexandrite or even things like old abjurations.

SE doesn't get this though. They think Legion should just be arbitrarily hard for no reason and mobs should drop scrolls of Fire V when you finally manage to abuse Embrava and Perfect Defense. That'll surely get people to want to do this event. Right.

If every HNM killed dropped 1-3 pouches of Heavy Metal this event would begin to look reasonable for the average player who could organize a kings run and potentially win the first wave without issue. You have an item that pretty much every player on the server needs, the trial requires a huge amount and that means instant demand to join runs - PUG or not.

The items to augment new abjuration gear should also be thrown in along with more full pools (even if its just ingots, jewels and random VW tier crap) to give people actual things to spread around. 18+ people are participating after all.

Lastly why is only the HQ abjuration gear augmentable? Who thought that was reasonable? It's stupid and makes so much of the NQ gear crap since the stats aren't all that strong to begin with when compared to Abyssean era gear. Make it all augmentable so people can be compelled to repeat Legion for the augment items along with the loot.

I view the rewards as more akin to WoE. Like WoE, only about 1/4 of the Legion drops are good (mostly the abjurations along with a few great pieces for certain jobs). At least 3/4 are mediocre or bad. But the event is many many times more difficult than WoE, with a shorter time limit to boot. The effort:reward ratio is all skewed, and that isn't acceptable for a new event. They didn't realize that if they are going to make a "WoE on crack" event, they have to provide more incentive than WoE ever had.

If they want people to do the event and have a robust /shout community, I completely agree they should at least put in Heavy Metal/Riftxxx stuff. People still spam WoE for three reasons: 1) the 1/4 pricey good drops amongst the 3/4 mediocre stuff, 2) the Coins and ties to Magian trials, and 3) the fact that the difficulty and effort:reward ratio has been properly tweaked.

Tie this new content to Magian trials, tweak the difficulty to even out the effort:reward ratio, and they will come.

They did the weapons right (there is a clear balance between 90/95/99 difficulty) but they are having a hard time doing the gear right. For all we know the rewards could be there : the augments could be worth it. It would be interesting if the devs could show us a list or a range of possible augments.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

They did the weapons right (there is a clear balance between 90/95/99 difficulty) but they are having a hard time doing the gear right. For all we know the rewards could be there : the augments could be worth it. It would be interesting if the devs could show us a list or a range of possible augments.

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Even if the augments are amazing why the completely arbitrary HQ only rule? This wasn't the case with previous abj sets, the HQs are going to be in the stratosphere with regards to price given the t1 HQ rate and extreme difficulty to reach 110 crafting.

It's like stupid compounded on stupid. Do they not want people to do events?

The NQ abjurations suck so nothing is lost.. I'm guessing, as I explained earlier in the thread, that it's a plot to make HQing "worth it" and to revive crafting.

so im guessing the HQ abjurations are tier 0 too lol? what a fail event.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

The NQ abjurations suck so nothing is lost.. I'm guessing, as I explained earlier in the thread, that it's a plot to make HQing "worth it" and to revive crafting.

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The plot would have worked better if both NQs and HQs had good augments since it'd lead to people buying up NQs while the super-rich snap up the low amount of HQs that get squeezed out.

There are some pieces that with proper augments could be competitive with standard gear but thanks the HQ only rule will be crap on arrival and complete loss to any crafter.

This is like elementary stupidity from a crafting standpoint.

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Originally Posted by Monchat

so im guessing the HQ abjurations are tier 0 too lol? what a fail event.

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T1 if you have all craft enhancements and furnishings.

Good luck getting 110 when every craft is hundreds of thousands to synth with materials so rare you'll either be farming yourself or buying at the AH's mercy.

I'm recanting my earlier statement. Legion officially blows. The dev team needs to do some serious work on this event to make it even worth attempting.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

The plot would have worked better if both NQs and HQs had good augments since it'd lead to people buying up NQs while the super-rich snap up the low amount of HQs that get squeezed out.

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I think a good example would be the WHM RDM BRD SCH shoes - the Paean Boots (NQ, DEF:27 "Cure" potency +1% Enhances "Resist Silence" effect Movement speed +8%) vs the Iaso Boots (HQ, DEF:28 "Cure" potency +4% Enhances "Resist Silence" effect Movement speed +12%).

Movement speed 8% is crap; it is 12%+ or go home. But to compound on this there is a significant cure potency difference between the two. Basically, the NQ is gear that should have been an Abyssea drop because it is so bad (it isn't bad just in comparison, it is actually bad because it doesn't do anything better then gear you could get or augment twenty levels prior). The HQ is actually desirable because while it doesn't do anything better then previous gear for most of the jobs listed, it still is equal to them while combining them into one slot for all of the jobs listed.

Personally, if I was designing these shoes, the NQ would be what the HQ is now, and the HQ would have all those stats, maybe a bit more movement speed (unlikely), maybe a point more of cure potency for 5% (somewhat likely), and they would have auto-refresh on them (definitely). I'm not entirely sure what the new augment system for these new abjurations is, but being able to augment even minor stats on top of the HQ only (which I think is what people are saying is the case), but the NQ has the current stats, I think it would still make the HQ desirable as long as the augments are good, such as something like auto-refresh, Healing Magic skill in sizable amounts, Enhancing Magic in decent amounts, MND/CHR/INT in competitive amounts, Fast Cast, Haste, or some other fairly desirable stat in decent amounts would make the HQ desired enough to fetch a fair price while still making it pure profit for the crafters all the way.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

(HQ, DEF:28 "Cure" potency +4% Enhances "Resist Silence" effect Movement speed +12%).

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this item is basically what I'd call crap. it looks good, but its not. cure potency slot? there is so many cure potency items for WHM, the NQ zenith pumps can be augmented with potency +3%, but more impotantly they can be augmented with cure casting time -7%. Nobody wants cure potency on feet, which leaves: movement speed. Gaiters have existed for years now...18% or bust.

Iaso Boots are the very definition of a sidegrade with those base stats. The only thing that could push it over would be potential augments. Iaso Mitra (head piece) is much much better.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

It's like stupid compounded on stupid. Do they not want people to do events?

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I think they are on their last straws and grasping for more now. No new contents coming and they still have over a year to fill in before FF14 will start taking off, or so they hope. Right now we are pretty much strung along with luck based events where the drop rate is ridiculously low and it takes forever to do and 18-36 people to clear. Basically trying to bring back the old FFXI where grinding is the thing. Voidwatch, Neo Nyzul and Legion are all big disappointment to be honest, you stayed for a year hoping that they finally get it, since Abyssea was a great example on how to do content that is "battle oriented" and make the grinding somewhat fun and enjoyable. Alas, no more, welcome to the "barance" style of FFXI. So far their response to Legion has been very timid and they are going in "attacking" mode, pretty much take it or we will give you nothing, they have to "draw the line" somewhere.

Have to admit, I just BG'd the current known drops from Legion.

My god, They're all sh*t tier sh*t. Absolute garbage. I mean like stuff that seriously has little to absolutely no conceivable use outside of being fluff-drops just to fill a drop spot.

The known drops yeah. The unknown drops on BG "Legion Rewards" page has the other stuff.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

I think they are on their last straws and grasping for more now. No new contents coming and they still have over a year to fill in before FF14 will start taking off, or so they hope. Right now we are pretty much strung along with luck based events where the drop rate is ridiculously low and it takes forever to do and 18-36 people to clear. Basically trying to bring back the old FFXI where grinding is the thing. Voidwatch, Neo Nyzul and Legion are all big disappointment to be honest, you stayed for a year hoping that they finally get it, since Abyssea was a great example on how to do content that is "battle oriented" and make the grinding somewhat fun and enjoyable. Alas, no more, welcome to the "barance" style of FFXI. So far their response to Legion has been very timid and they are going in "attacking" mode, pretty much take it or we will give you nothing, they have to "draw the line" somewhere.

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Are you related to Runespider perchance?

Greetings!

As a follow-up to our recent Legion posts, we would like to go over the balancing of Legion battles.

To start off, the battle concepts behind the Hall of An, Hall of Ki, Hall of Im, Hall of Muru and Hall of Mul are each designed differently. Also there are differences between the enemies in each Hall, such as some monsters featuring high agility in exchange for lowered HP, some that may coordinate with other monsters or even varying behavior depending on the order in which you defeat them.

With that in mind, the key to conquering Legion is to be aware of these patterns and planning the appropriate tactics to counter them. In other words, making up things as you go along will only get you so far. When you first tackle Legion, it can be challenging to figure out how to advance, but by trying different strategies, players will start to see patterns and trends within each Hall and enemy that you should be able to come up with some good tactics and formation.

Hall of An is designed to be fairly straightforward and it features monsters with high attack, monsters that will use debuffs and monsters that are balanced in between. We suggest that you first challenge Hall of An to get the idea on how to tackle the rest of Legion.

Some players have had trouble finding a "safe spot" in between the first and second waves of enemies. While there is no specific area where it is consider to be 100% safe, there are certain parts of the map that monsters won't wander around. However, even though they don't wander to close to those areas, they can still detect the players depending on the distance. We can adjust and narrow down the range where monsters spawn and wander but if we were to do so, the monsters would be more concentrated and players may end up being attacked by 3 monsters at the same time so there are both pros and cons. But if the range should still be narrowed down, we would like to give some thought to it.

When it comes to the elementals that drop temporary items, they are designed to run from and attacker and to remain in the zone once they have been claimed. Even though they run off, they won't despawn if you have claimed them while they are present. The reason being so that players can defeat them and obtain their items at the perfect time that they need to.

All that said, we'll continue to gather your feedback and comments for the dev. team so please keep them coming!

Rukkirii, thank you for your feedback.

In response, I think the overriding issue is that there can be no variance in "planning the appropriate tactics" and "trying different strategies", because Legion in its current form essentially boils down to one strategy: zerg. The 30 minute time limit is too restrictive. Assuming there are 6-7 monsters per chamber, there is no time to carry out any other strategy or tactic when each monster has to be defeated in 4-5 minutes. While the change in monster HP is welcomed, we see no reason that this event cannot be made 45 minutes as Walk of Echoes was.

His post seems to indicate that killing one of the mob first is going to weaken the others.

How are people supposed to notice small nuances that may be beneficial to the group if you're worried about the clock all fight? Like Mahoro said, it only promotes zerging, embrava spam and perfect defense strategies which are restrictive by nature.

The timer for an event like Legion should be low enough that it prevents holding up the chamber or promoting zombie tactics but not so low that the event becomes impossible if you happen to wipe. Previous content like "The Wyrmking Descends", Lambton Worm, "Ouryu Cometh" and even HNMs had a 1 hour timer, why not this event?

cmon guys, the shitty rings are totally worth it...

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

How are people supposed to notice small nuances that may be beneficial to the group if you're worried about the clock all fight? Like Mahoro said, it only promotes zerging, embrava spam and perfect defense strategies which are restrictive by nature.

The timer for an event like Legion should be low enough that it prevents holding up the chamber or promoting zombie tactics but not so low that the event becomes impossible if you happen to wipe. Previous content like "The Wyrmking Descends", Lambton Worm, "Ouryu Cometh" and even HNMs had a 1 hour timer, why not this event?

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Their BSing most of us on purpose. It's designed to be nearly impossible to clear, even for a super buffed super geared group. When there is such a restrictive clock there is only one valid strategy, zerg it until it's dead.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

Greetings!

As a follow-up to our recent Legion posts, we would like to go over the balancing of Legion battles.

To start off, the battle concepts behind the Hall of An, Hall of Ki, Hall of Im, Hall of Muru and Hall of Mul are each designed differently. Also there are differences between the enemies in each Hall, such as some monsters featuring high agility in exchange for lowered HP, some that may coordinate with other monsters or even varying behavior depending on the order in which you defeat them.

With that in mind, the key to conquering Legion is to be aware of these patterns and planning the appropriate tactics to counter them. In other words, making up things as you go along will only get you so far. When you first tackle Legion, it can be challenging to figure out how to advance, but by trying different strategies, players will start to see patterns and trends within each Hall and enemy that you should be able to come up with some good tactics and formation.

Hall of An is designed to be fairly straightforward and it features monsters with high attack, monsters that will use debuffs and monsters that are balanced in between. We suggest that you first challenge Hall of An to get the idea on how to tackle the rest of Legion.

Some players have had trouble finding a "safe spot" in between the first and second waves of enemies. While there is no specific area where it is consider to be 100% safe, there are certain parts of the map that monsters won't wander around. However, even though they don't wander to close to those areas, they can still detect the players depending on the distance. We can adjust and narrow down the range where monsters spawn and wander but if we were to do so, the monsters would be more concentrated and players may end up being attacked by 3 monsters at the same time so there are both pros and cons. But if the range should still be narrowed down, we would like to give some thought to it.

When it comes to the elementals that drop temporary items, they are designed to run from and attacker and to stay once they have been claimed. Even though they run off, they won't despawn if you have attacked them while they are present. The reason being so that players can defeat them and obtain their items at the perfect time that they need to.

All that said, we'll continue to gather your feedback and comments for the dev. team so please keep them coming!

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Can someone explain to me what the bold section means? All of the legions mobs automatically link anyway... why would changing their spawn location matter in the least?

Additional note: nobody is ever going to get 36 people to go do legion, or if they do, they must be some serious special-ed 36 people for wasting their time. I say this as someone who tried myself many times. The rewards are mediocre; not only this, but you are lotting against 35 other people. You loved your VW loot system so much that you revert back to this?

My point: this content needs to be completable by 18 people or it's pointless and you've wasted your time as well as ours.

So a group finally cleared Wave 2 of Ki. Wave 3 was 3 more HNMs. Including a mantis that can death prophet from 100%. If we're supposed to clear mobs in a certain order that gives us 3.3 minutes for each NM. How is that a possibility for things that wipe you instantly without PD up? Can we get more info than "You're doing it wrong"?

i guess this is SE's response to stuff being too easy

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

When it comes to the elementals that drop temporary items, they are designed to run from and attacker and to stay once they have been claimed. Even though they run off, they won't despawn if you have attacked them while they are present.

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I think this is mis-translated slightly? As it doesn't make sense :(

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

So a group finally cleared Wave 2 of Ki. Wave 3 was 3 more HNMs. Including a mantis that can death prophet from 100%. If we're supposed to clear mobs in a certain order that gives us 3:33 for each NM. How is that a possibility for things that wipe you instantly without PD up? Can we get more info than "You're doing it wrong"?

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Perfect defense ? Oh looooooooook.

The dev post is not super clear either that the order matters. Maybe it's some dumb strat like killing at the same time or holding one at low HP etc. Also they advised Hall of An so that means that the strat for other chambers are retarded while this one is simple..

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Originally Posted by saevel

Their BSing most of us on purpose. It's designed to be nearly impossible to clear, even for a super buffed super geared group. When there is such a restrictive clock there is only one valid strategy, zerg it until it's dead.

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I thought it was designed to be impossible to clear.
Or in other words: “Slay as many foes as possible within the thirty-minute time limit.”

Moreover, perhaps there are “mechanics” in place that prevent a strategy such as “zerging” from succeeding at all. Ha, I guess that would be a new one.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

When it comes to the elementals that drop temporary items, they are designed to run from and attacker and to stay once they have been claimed. Even though they run off, they won't despawn if you have attacked them while they are present.

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I think this is mis-translated slightly? As it doesn't make sense :(

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The wording might be a bit odd, but I think it means something along the lines: The elementals will flee from player characters, and if not claimed, de-spawn in due time. If they are claimed, however, they will stay still and do not de-spawn (even if they still decide to flee? ¯\_ツ_/¯ ).

Alternatively: The elementals will flee from player characters, and de-spawn in due time if not claimed. They will continue to flee even after being claimed, but will not de-spawn.

May bee. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

If they want people to do the event and have a robust /shout community, I completely agree they should at least put in Heavy Metal/Riftxxx stuff.

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While we're not currently looking into adding the suggested items to Legion to increase participation, we are looking at how to increase participation via other methods.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

While we're not currently looking into adding the suggested items to Legion to increase participation, we are looking at how to increase participation via other methods.

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Step in the right direction at least. I still believe you'll need to get rid of the 36-person requirement for a full clear though. Managing a shout group with 36 people is pretty ridiculous. You guys should know from the test server event. If the devs really really want to keep 36 person requirement then the rewards need to be incredibly good AND easily accessible. The easily accessible part is really important because nobody wants to lot against 35 other people. Direct drops would make things appealing.

Still... it really sucks having to spend 2 hours shouting for people to do this event + whatever time it takes to organize parties. Not to mention you need to hand out pearls if you have two alliances (since you can't just use party chat).

Drop the mobs' HP by 50%.
Get rid of 36-person option, OR at least make it possible to do w/o.
Add some better rewards.