Obtaining the abilities of your job shouldn't be a timesink, only aquiring equipment, materials, resources. Nobody want's "mythic spells." or anything other than a mythic that takes as long as one.Quote:
WHM has extraordinarily few, barring Mythics.
That's not a logical fallacy. The group of players who has already completed previous trials are the group of players who have sufficient dedication to keep clearing additional, harder trials. That's what they're saying. In other words, they're implying that people who haven't already upgraded their items to their fullest before these trials were added are not as likely to finish the whole thing, which is, in all probability, true.Quote:
Your sentence contains a logical fallacy. "Most of all players" would have no need to finish the trial if they are not "players who already finished previous trials."
And what you said, that "most of all players would have no need to finish the trial," is not necessarily a true statement. Many people are out there who want to do an empyrean weapon and have not done those trials yet. SE is referring to two sets of people here: Set {A}, the set of all people who are interested in and working on an empyrean weapon, and Set {B}, the subset of set {A}who already have completed the level 90 weapon trial. People in set B, having already completed all trials up to this point, are far more likely to have the people and resources at their disposal to complete the first 99 trial, than people who have not already gone through the hardest trials that existed before.
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02-20-2012, 04:13 AMAlhanelem
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02-20-2012, 04:42 AMMahoroKay. We're down to opinion here. Agree to disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Their quote didn't address Set [A] though....you were the one who introduced Set [A] into the mix. That's why I made the post I did. I agree with the first half of your first paragraph here, but not the statement about what they are implying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
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02-20-2012, 07:36 AMAlhanelemLike you said, agree to disagree. The implications they made are very clear to me, but it's perfectly OK if you don't see them.Quote:
Their quote didn't address Set [A] though....you were the one who introduced Set [A] into the mix. That's why I made the post I did. I agree with the first half of your first paragraph here, but not the statement about what they are implying.
I agree it's an opinion. Very likely,a popularly held opinion. I don't know anyone that explicitly wants nearly-impossible-to-get spells and abilities, and nobody seems to be posting to ask for it.Quote:
Kay. We're down to opinion here. Agree to disagree.
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02-20-2012, 07:53 AMsaevel
The only people who want Mythic / Relic "Spells" are those who already have those Relics / Mythics and want to feel special and above the common peasants who don't have those items. Otherwise said spell just becomes another wasted game mechanic.
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02-20-2012, 08:13 AMSparthosMake relics soloable then follow up the trials with solo/lowman activities, kill big LS w/Abyssea and then turn around and demand 12-18 people repeat ADL for one person multiple days to finish a 99. Brilliant SE logic here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
Make friends? More like use your friends.
If Tanaka and company sat down and played the game maybe they'd realize that the likelihood of finishing a 99 outside those with longtime connections is near zero. Shout this? Lol, no one is that dumb to help you when there is no reward for doing so. This game works on rewards and either you put them up or no one gives a shit about the content.
Some people will/already finished lvl99 relics but the reality is when they claimed "most people who completed up to lvl95 would likely finish this trial" - they were talking out their asses. Everything up to 95 is completely different from the throwback content ADL wants to be. -
02-20-2012, 09:50 AMRunespider
The main problem is that they don't know their playerbase anymore (we have changed so much since Abyssea), their estimations of the number of relic (& emp) holders that will obtain 99 is nonsense, the number that will get their prized weapons to 99 will be vastly, vastly less than 51%. I would be suprised if more than 5% get them done honestly (in old FF? the numbers would of been correct, we had shells etc, now? no way). There is a small chance they will re-evalutate it once they see just how few manage to upgrade but I won't hold my breath.
They just really don't know their playerbase, they will be as wrong on this as they were when they thought the playerbase were going to be all crowded around the entrace to do neo nyzul, every post they made about it was worrying about congestion issues. It's quite worrying how wrong they are with these things, they need to actually start doing som research on their playerbase. -
02-20-2012, 11:05 AMCamiie
Tohihroyu, I get that you're frustrated and you can tell by my posts I am as well. I think much of the JP player base is as upset at the devs as we are. I think they're a lot more like us than we might think. There are hardcore people who are all for the current sadistic/masochistic direction the game is taking, and there are others who are more laid back and just want to log in and get things done Abyssea style. Some who are addicted to the gamble of the R.N.G. and some who like gradual progress. Some who are all about exclusionary status symbols and others who just want to hang with friends in an FF-style setting.
Please don't think I'm trying to pick a fight with you or that I'm some hardcore Japanophile. I just don't think it's a good idea to lump all of them together as being on one side or another. There's some out there who want the same things you want or I want. Due to the language barrier I'm not sure we can all band together for the same cause, but we can keep sending our messages separately and respectfully and know that someone out there across the ocean is on our side. It may not do a bit of good, but at least we can say we tried and at least we won't be written off simply for the tone of our posts. -
02-20-2012, 01:45 PMUnleashhellHow is that using your friends? You do realize this is an MMO right? Its meant to do things as a group. Not everyone is out for themselves, and those who are are most likely in the Imyandme LS. So I'm not sure I follow how you think its using your friends. When you go to Abyssea and your friend comes BLM to proc yellow just so you can finish seals, is that using your friends also to your benefit? Not sure what kind of LS you are all in but we do things to help one another in my LS. Not to mention is is a fairly large LS as is. Those who are new that decide to be I My and Me don't last very long in it and get flushed out fairly quickly. Sounds to me most of you just have a bad taste in your mouths about large LS's. Its a shame cause I love running a large LS and like to see everyone get things. Things are fair and divided out equally. Not to mention we HELP each other even when there is no immediate benefit from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparthos
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02-20-2012, 02:03 PMTohihroyu
So much anger... I thought you brony where supposed to "Love & tolerate" you may think I'm angry but I'm not, all I see is a disgruntled little brony whose mad because a mithra named Fluttershy wont give him some sexy time, you seclectively read my posts & I will do the same with you, all I see in your posts is "I wanna get laid by a yellow Pegasus pony so badly LOVE ME!!!!!!!" and because I'm nice how about you go join up one of the 2 My Little Pony MMO? I'm sure the Fluttershy there would wanna let you "ur gunna love me!!!" all you want while you stare at some pony ass.
Well you pony loving Tanaka brown nosing losers can rejoice & circle jerk all over BG cause I quit the forums, its full of nothing but Q_Q or brown nosing Tanaka-san. I know Quezty will send me more photoshop tells (along with angry brony) & just pick out the words "jp" "japan" "tanaka" & "onry" come to think of it he was the only one who had his fluttershy panties in a knot over it, while others besides Rune didn't give a damn. Oh & by the way Quetz I have nothing against the Japanese...just the people who suck up to them & the weeaboos who worship them like gods...funny something most of you do hoping to get new expansions! no better then the weeaboos...sad really.
Smell you later. -
02-20-2012, 02:08 PMRavenmoreYeah have fun getting every one something doing ADL sure they will be happy to spilt up a few coins and crap drops while one or 2 people get the good stuff. That is the problem with ADL only the relic items are worth a crap to go after. Also they are not helping those people with out benfit they are trading on you repaying them at some point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
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02-20-2012, 02:48 PMKimble
Having your friend come and help you proc NM for seals isnt an opportunity cost for them. They don't have to give up limited time that you can only do once a day to help you get those seals. Plus if they need seals from that zone as well, you can actually go and help them with that without costing yourself or them anything.
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02-20-2012, 02:50 PMSparthosAt the end of the day doing a Xarc run for one person means everyone who tags along is rewarded with (virtually) nothing for the effort. If you have access to a functioning event LS (something becoming a rarity in recent days) then you can schedule things and get people to come out with the intention of scratching their back later however this is not the norm in today's PUG heavy FFXI and it shows that SE is out of touch on this topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
For someone who toiled to solo a relic through the new Dynamis this ADL trial will be the end of the road. Why? Because there is no incentive for people to help you. Had SE taken some time to profile the current endgame landscape they'd have realized this and created a trial that was more appropriate yet retained the difficulty they sought.
Bad taste about large scale shells? I helped run two, was a member in at least 3 and have seen the promised land of big HNMLS'. The reality however is that most on my server are in severe decline since Abyssea/Voidwatch and Anduril might just be the last active NA shell on Lakshmi that existed in the days where big shells reigned. Lakshmi's endgame scene is a wreck and I'm sure the same goes for other servers.
SE gutted HNMLS play through Abyssea, Walk of Echoes, Dynamis revamps and Voidwatch and now we're supposed to pretend that didn't happen? Makes sense.... sorta, kinda not. -
02-20-2012, 04:53 PMmacross
Just shout for pick ups, and free lot the umbral. No one is forced to go, everyone there chooses to, wether or not they win the umbral or not.
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02-20-2012, 05:46 PMQuetzacoatlGood god, that made very little sense whatsoever. Maybe if your rants were more coherent than an idiot shopping at walmart, perhaps I'd be able to understand where you're coming from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tohihroyu
also,
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...922#post244922
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...528#post243528
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...484#post243484
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...808#post225808
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...086#post213086
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...761#post282761
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post280902
Yeah okay I'll concede I exaggerated about being 100% of your posts but holy crap I think this is more than I want to read in any place that matters on these forums. -
02-20-2012, 06:00 PMRunespiderIt's not as easy as most things to kill so PuG is already not a good idea, making a group and having a 1/18 (I know you don't need 18 but most people will take that many if they can) chance is not something most people will want to do (maybe if 2 were 100% and they could lock one) and you have to build the pop set.Quote:
Just shout for pick ups, and free lot the umbral. No one is forced to go, everyone there chooses to, wether or not they win the umbral or not
The only people that are going to do this are people that have shells capable of doing it and sorry to burst bubbles here but they won't always be the best players either, they will just be the ones that very often couldn't do anything in Aby with their "friends" and had to join a shell to get them done (99 relics will be like old king drops, you will still get horribly retarded players walking around with them). At a time when they destroyed the LS mentality, encouraged PuG and most of the best players realised they didn't need a ls it's a pretty crappy turnaround. -
02-20-2012, 06:32 PMKimbleQuote:
Originally Posted by macross
Aww, you sure are special aren't you? -
02-21-2012, 12:37 AMMahoroThat's because you have conflated the people who want a challenge to get said spells and abilities (existent), and the people who want impossible to get Mythic spells (nearly nonexistent).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
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02-21-2012, 01:30 AMlllenYeah, I've built a log castle with a log village from VW.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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02-21-2012, 05:14 AMMahoroNice set of assumptions and generalities. About the only things that are undisputed are that they encouraged PUG and that ADL is not suited to PUG, which I'd agree is a way SE misled the playerbase on that trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Runespider
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02-21-2012, 06:12 AMUnleashhellNever once has anyone ever asked me to "repay" them for anything. Working together is what the game is about, not being selfish and thinking about just yourself and what benefit you can get out of anything you do. And before you say doing the trial to 99 is being selfish, then same can be said for people that stat they deserve something in return. Again going back to my post, just because people help one another doesn't mean they will demand some kind of payment in return.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenmore
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02-21-2012, 06:28 AMUnleashhellLarge LS doesn't necessarily mean it has / had to be an HNMLS. There are lots of LS that have the numbers to still do ADL assuming they have the right jobs. You points are taken though and I understand your point your trying to make. Especially with the soloers that decided to make a relic and that level 95 is the end of the line for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparthos
Same can also be said for the solo/duoers that did Emp weapons no? They can get the 85 version and maybe even get the 90 version with minimal effort, but past that point those soloers/duoers are in the same boat. They aren't soloing VW to get to 95 or 99. Again my point is you still need 18 people to the 99 version of either of these weapons. And before everyone starts saying that 17 other people can benefit from VW, what if they don't need / want anything from VW? What if they don't get anything but logs? Basically the people getting 95 or 99 Emp weapons are either very rich to buy all the HMP or they collectively combine the efforts of the LS they are in to benefit one person.
So now you have both relic and Emp weapons benefiting just one person the way you guys are all explaining how it is. Do the trials suck? Yes they do. Are they impossible? No they aren't. Back to my point, not everyone in the game is selfish and demands things for their time. Lots of people out there like to see their LS members and friends get things and they don't mind helping with no benefit in return. -
02-21-2012, 06:34 AMRavenmoreBoy must be nice to be so naive. Ever wonder why people get pissed at other people for leaving shells, I'm sure you have seen it. People do derserve being rewarded for helping and using time they could be doing something for them selfs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
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02-21-2012, 06:53 AMAana
I am really sick of the ridiculous attitude that gets perpetuated that equates wanting a challenge to being some elitist prick that wants to just lord over all the peons that cant hack it in 'hardcore' world. No one has once actually asked for a 'mythic spell'. No one (i have seen) has actively even supported the idea.
DebbieDowner: Its going to be IMPOSSIBLE TO GET! Like a mythic spell!
Optimist: It wont be THAT bad, but id be nice to have a challenge
DebbieDowner: You just want it to be impossible so you can lord it over everyone and feel better about your shitty life in your mommys basement!
Optimist: No, not 'impossible' just a 'challenge'. Something fun challenging and interesting=/= impossible.
You can WANT a challenge and not have some evil ulterior motive to get something just to rub it in the n00bs faces. Quit polarizing these things and framing it as some giant 'us good folk vs the evil elitest!1!' war. Dont demonize people that disagree with you just because you dont like their ideas and dont start lumping crap together that doesnt go.
No on is ASKING for a mythic spell. At worst, some are asking for something that is more involved than "go the the AH and buy for 10k". -
02-21-2012, 07:05 AMRavenmore
Thing is going by what SE consider easy in the past, when they say extramly diffcult its clear it will be near impossible to get. Remember they said mystics would be easier then relics, then with saying most that got relic to 95 would finish the stage 1 99(95 relic is easy as snot to get).
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02-21-2012, 07:16 AMUnleashhellDeserving a reward of some kind is fine. But again, not everyone is out for themselves. Some do like to just help others and ask nothing in return. There is nothing naive about it. My LS is full of people just like me to like to help others and that's what we do. We even help people outside our LS. There are countless times we have seen a group wipe to NMs in Abyssea. Rather then let it depop we claim it, raise them all if needed then kill the NM for them and give them ALL DROPs and asked for NOTHING in return. Some of us are like that ya know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenmore
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02-21-2012, 07:32 AMAana
But thats just whining. What i mean is that it is not constructive in anyway.
Downer:"Its going to be TERRIBLE! Look at what else theve done!"
When someone says "nah it wont be that bad". 'Yes it will!' 'No it wont!' etc. K that was an enlightening experience.
When someones says "Id be nice if it was something challenging instead of a 10k scroll" and they get a buncha backhanded 'your just an elitetist' its not helpful and just makes some imaginary us vs them scenario.
Instead of just doomsday prophecies and shutting down people that arent as gloomy, how about ideas? It just devolves into some imaginary fight about whos the most butthurt about timesinks between melees/mages/gear and spells.
Less QQ more PewPew. What kind of process WOULD be reasonable for a super duper endgame spell? (FYI Reducing weakness timer is HUGE in a world with timed events that we have now). There IS something between a 10k scroll from an NPC and some retarded ZOMG MYTHIC SPEEL!1! that 1/1000 whms will ever get.
This isnt written in stone yet. SE has altered lots of things before they were released from teh initial dev post like this one. Last time i checked, i needed more than 3PW items for my mythic when the announcement was 1st made. Oh and plates only gave 100 max. Now they give 1500 pts and i only need 3 drops. SE is stubborn, but they can and do change things. Less useless whine and more ideas. -
02-21-2012, 08:45 AMMalamasala
They aren't stubborn, they are ignorant.
Like it takes them 2 years to go "Oh right, forgot to include tier V nukes on spirits". Really? We only told you 2 years ago that you forgot.
And they go like "Here PUPs! We fixed your spell casting", but do they fix spirit spell casting? Nah, wait another 4 years and see them go "Oh, and we are splitting up timers on spirits too!".
I don't see this Arise stuff go anywhere else than Voidwatch Kirin 0.01% drop rate route. RA/EX so only the person getting the scroll can use it. And then, 5 years down the line, they might be so friendly that they raise the drop rate to 1%. -
02-21-2012, 09:09 AMRunespider
I hope the spell isn't stupid to obtain, I really do, because it will mean they are maybe realising how off the wall some of their ideas currently are.
In 2-4 months (because there is no guarantee this spell will be in the next update) we will see I guess, or a rep could just chime in and tell us what their plans are and not just say "extremely difficult" and leaving it up in the air, maybe get some player feedback before the fact instead of a ragefest after update as keeps happening. Why say extremely difficult at all, it's like pure trolling of the playerbase to say that and leave it open to interpretation, especially when it's going to be compared to the last thing they called extremely diffiicult. -
02-21-2012, 10:19 AMLafaielThey want the ragefest, thats how they know they trolled us good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Runespider
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02-21-2012, 10:38 AMCamiie
I like how people come on here and act like they'll actually be part of the lucky (and it will be luck based) few to obtain this scroll. This is Tanaka's SE. They said it will be "extremely difficult to obtain." They said not every WHM will have it. I don't care who you are or who you think you are. You are not meant to get this. You are only meant to chase it. Just as there are no tricks or gimmicks to Neo-Nyzul there will be none here. Don't fool yourself into thinking the current dev team can't possibly be that mean. They are.
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02-21-2012, 10:59 AMUnleashhell
Maybe it will be a top tier Legion drop. If their are tiers like Einherjar had. I haven't gotten the chance to get on the test server yet and try it out.
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02-21-2012, 01:43 PMSerihaConversely, I'm sick of people who want to be rewarded for their time being accused of asking for handouts or the age old strawman of wanting free whatever sent straight to their dbox. Believe it or not, I have seen people ask for niche abilities that only the owner of such and such should have. Of recent memory, BSTs wanting some Gutler-specific jug pet springs to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aana
More to the original point, what one person finds challenging might be a total cakewalk to another. By default, in-game situations can favor a given job over another, which complicates matters for the fans of jobs enduring a period of lesser status. Even within a job, the quality of gear between players will also vary. Enter age old argument of there being pimped out n00bs while some average geared joe who knows the job kicks their butt. But eventually there's always a point where skill can't outshine the benefits of better gear.
SE's never really entertained a good means to address this gap. Other MMOs have tried giving events tiers of difficulty where the harder stuff is more rewarding, but in SE land, difficulty tends to hinge on either poor drop rates or poorly designed mobs that can just flip a switch and ruin your day if they want to. Skilled players may be better able to handle the latter and even recover, but when both get paired up, nobody really wins.
Overall, I'm of the camp that spells shouldn't be rare. The obvious reason why is that melees don't face this restriction and are still serviceable even without the prestige weapons. If SE wants to get fancy with what magic does to further differentiate the mages, that's when you start giving them gear that augments the spell. For the moment, we know Araise will revive a KOed player, give them a 3 minute weakness timer, and grant them Reraise. If they wanted to really emphasize good WHMs, then there could be some gear that cuts the weakness timer to 2 minutes, puts them up with full weakened HP/MP, and maybe gives them a 500 or so Stoneskin and temporary Scherzo to let them get to safety to further recover. And who knows, maybe if someone gets sick of playing WHM, they could sell off that piece of gear. Hell if it can happen with a scroll. -
02-21-2012, 02:11 PMFalseliberty
Idk but a few posts back I thought we was talking about pony porn.... ; ; I want more pony porn
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02-21-2012, 05:31 PMYinnythI am personally of the opinion that this should be changed. I want scrolls for JAs just like dice for COR rolls. Granted, there's the cap on JA cooldowns right now, but once they fix that, I would really like to see JAs and WSs as drops off bosses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seriha
I also feel compelled to mention-- as a player who sticks to mostly mage jobs-- I don't mind rare spells. If they want to give SMNs Bahamut, but make it as hard to obtain as a relic weapon, so be it. If they want to give SCHs Ultima, but it costs 5,000 alexandrite to get the scroll, so be it (though they really need to add more sources of alex in general). I'm all for having difficult goals for every character type as long as there's adequate return on investment, not anymore of this claustrum BS. -
02-21-2012, 05:32 PMRavenmoreNo you are expecting something in return from that group you help that is if you mess up, random xbox mass DC what not, they don't gank your pop. Even if thats not your direct thinking its in the back of your mind cause if they do that will be the first thing you call them out on. Really come back when you are killing your 50th ADL and tell me how many of those kind souls are still going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
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02-22-2012, 12:08 AMZaps
inb4 they add arise to mjollnir99
aka. We gave you arise on your mjollnir because you were too busy DDing to cure anyone. -
02-22-2012, 01:56 AMDivinius
If they want to make something that is "extremely difficult to obtain" then so be it. I don't like the general direction FFXI is taking either, but I can tell you this:
If it turns out to be an EX scroll, then "extremely difficult to obtain" damn well better not just mean "extremely low probably to drop from something". Because so help me god, if they implement this in such a way that it is nothing but dumb luck and "winning the lottery" strategy to obtain, I'm not going to be happy.
Seeing some assclown's gimptastic abyssea-leeched WHM mule get a scroll by dumb chance, while someone like me who's been playing WHM as their main job since NA lauch ends up going 0/6000 on it, is going to make me rage harder than I ever have before. -
02-22-2012, 02:56 AMMalamasala
Actually to let people get it through the moogle lottery seems like a brilliant "extremely hard" method.
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02-22-2012, 04:39 AMRunespiderVoidwatch and career paladins trying to get the -dt body from kaggen says hi, this is exactly what happend there. Was always seening gimpy wars full timing that body, or peoples mules walking around with it while main tank players could not get it or went months and months of spamming to finally obtain it.Quote:
If they want to make something that is "extremely difficult to obtain" then so be it. I don't like the general direction FFXI is taking either, but I can tell you this:
If it turns out to be an EX scroll, then "extremely difficult to obtain" damn well better not just mean "extremely low probably to drop from something". Because so help me god, if they implement this in such a way that it is nothing but dumb luck and "winning the lottery" strategy to obtain, I'm not going to be happy.
Seeing some assclown's gimptastic abyssea-leeched WHM mule get a scroll by dumb chance, while someone like me who's been playing WHM as their main job since NA lauch ends up going 0/6000 on it, is going to make me rage harder than I ever have before.
Would be really nice if they just told us what they have planned, we all know they plan this stuff way way in advance so they know what hoops they are going to make us jump through already. Far better to tell us now and maybe evaluate th eplayers reaction at a point when they can possibly make some changes than wait till the last minute.
inb4 "if we make the spell easier to obtain we will have to nerf the spell for balance issues!"
I suppose really the problem they are seeing is they don't want to keep giving us better and better gear because that can only go so far, so instead of actaully giving it to us they give the illusion of giving us better stuff...without actually letting us get it. Floor 100 nyzul gear is a perfect example. -
02-22-2012, 06:14 AMUnleashhellQuote:
Originally Posted by Ravenmore
Glad to see you think know how I think. Sorry but you don't. I never expected anything from any random group that wiped in Abyssea. Gotta love when people that dissagree with others thinks their view is the only correct view in the world. I know how my LS is and how good the members are in it. They aren't greedy and out for themselves but yo uthink however you like. I'll keep you updated when we start doing our ADLs.