I can understand why people are saying that you should be able to merit everything. Personally I don't see why you should be able to merit all the combat skills. Why even have a merit system? Just raise the cap on all combat skills and take off the merit system entirely. It would come out to be the same would it not? The merit system is designed for the player to customize two - three jobs that separate them from the rest of the jobs you level. Making those two or three jobs, the ones you put the most time into to gear and play the most. Keep in mind we are not talking job ability timers here we are talking combat skill only. Personally I would like to see 8 more upgrades in the combat skills category and an expansion in the "others" category, that adds other features to merit.
New Weaponskills - Not what was expected
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01-06-2012, 06:30 AMUnleashhell
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01-06-2012, 06:37 AMDreamin
And if you have more than 2-3 jobs that you used on a regular basis? You can't be good at every one of them is that what you're saying?
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01-06-2012, 06:50 AMZinatoOh i've got one, make 3 different types of customizable gear for a few armor slots, then make them customize further so that even the jobs that share gear dont benefit from the stats. Surely nothing like that would ever happen forcing you to choose something so helpful as -10% DT/pet haste 5% between something like smn or bst, greatly weakening the other. They wouldnt do that right?Quote:
Originally Posted by hiko
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01-06-2012, 06:55 AMbrayenwow no u did not, u just pulled out the mini mission expansion rewards, omg those gears are so game breaking! did you know wearing them allows you to do something unique...oh wait it doesn't lol Christ 99% of the augments are and always were worthless on those rewards, did you really just use that as an argument? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Zinato
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01-06-2012, 07:01 AMZinato
This is my problem the pet stats are not match to pet jobs, mage to mage, melee to melee, evasion to evasion. this is the one and only split that really suck because its such an incredible augment. And as you just stated most are crap, this one is of the few that is not.
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01-06-2012, 07:16 AMUnleashhellHas nothing to do with being good at any or all of your jobs. It has to do with what is the point of the merit system for combat skills if everyone just want to be able to merit them all?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamin
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01-06-2012, 07:42 AMAlhanelemPretty much this- Why even have the combat skill merits if you can get them all? May as well just raise the skill caps. Why even have merit WS if you can get them all? May as well make them auto-learnable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
People don't seem to understand why these things were placed in the merit system in the first place. If they wanted us to be able to get them all, they would have just made them generally available instead of having a merit point system.
Your opinions are not facts. Clearly, all of those example games have plenty of fans. All of those example games have some mechanics similar to FFXI, and the best defense you can come up with is "those games suck so I don't play them?" That doesn't negate the point.Quote:
That's why that game sucks, and I don't play it. x5
So basically, you hate any game where you can't be and get everything all at once. You hate making decisions and you want everything served to you on a silver platter. Where is the fun in that?
FFXI was designed to let you switch between jobs, yes. But it was NOT designed with the assumption that everyone would play every single job and level them all up to maximum- the developers themselves said they did not expect people to do this and were suprised at the number of people who did (this came up in discussions about storage space). Even for the people that do, most of them like playing certain jobs more than others, and will gear and merit for those jobs. They are still 100% capable of playing all 20 of them, they just tweak out their favorites a little more. This is not a bad thing, it's a good thing and should be encouraged.
You CAN be good at every one of them. Merits are not so gamebreaking that a job is unplayable without its associated combat skill or magic skill merited to maximum or its weapon skill merited to maximum or attribute merited to maximum. Mathy elite types, feel free to chime in here and tell me the approximate impact on your performance with a weapon that doesn't have 8/8 merits in its combat skill vs the same one that does, but I don't think it's that significant. Unless you're a MNK, it's mostly about accuracy not damage, and what A+ skill DD can't easily max its accuracy anyway?Quote:
You can't be good at every one of them is that what you're saying?
You can be good at all 20 jobs, and slightly better at a few of them. Just because you didn't 8/8 greataxe doesn't mean you can't bust one out on WAR if your group really needs it.
Merit points ARE talent trees, just without the tree structure.
A less punishing way to respec your merits is all the game really needs. Refund at least some of the merit points spent and have no time restrictions, or refund all merit points spent on something but place a cooldown on it. If you change your mind about something, it should be reasonably easy to do so. That way you can change something without going "crap, now I have to grind for a few more hours to change the merits I've already gotten". I think that's fair and reasonable. -
01-06-2012, 07:59 AMFrankReynoldsThe point is that If you merit the skills then you are better than the people who didn't bother.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
One of FFXI's biggest selling points is the ability to play multiple jobs / classes on one character. Merits in jobs specific categories are somewhat understandable because they don't limit you to just being good at one job, and rarely even force you to decide how to play the specific job that they are for, due to the fact that many of the categories are not something people would want to boost. Being limited to the number of merits that you can put into non job specific merits limits your ability to use the job change feature at all.
Unlocking them doesn't mean that people will just automatically have all the same crap. -
01-06-2012, 08:02 AMSeriha
The "point" of the merit system is basically something to do with EXP once you're level capped instead of slowly letting us creep to level 255 or something that'd otherwise destroy game difficulty. If you're of the mind that everyone being 8/8 in all weapon and magic categories as well as capping job specific merits would do the same, I'm not really sure what to say other than it wouldn't.
I'm going to perform what some may consider blasphemy and bring up Rift's Planar Attunement system. It's basically that game's equivalent of merits. For every 500k EXP you get once you're 50, you're given 100 points than you can spend in one of the six elemental trees. Each tree has three tiers and the trees are all different per class. To unlock a given element's tier, you have to completely fill out the tier prior. To go from T1 to T2, it's something like 74 post-50 level ups. As for the what the system offers, each element tends to favor a given attribute or two like Vitality or Strength. Each slot on the grid, depending on the upgrade, can be leveled up to 4 times with each successful level costing more of the points you gain with each ding.
The kicker here is that Trion doesn't say, "You can only pick one element tree, sorry!" If you're ambitious enough, you can spend the great deal of time it would take to max all of them. When I was playing, depending on what I opted to do that day, I usually strove to get at least one PA level. This often involved doing a few world events, quest dailies, and then maybe tanking a dungeon for a guild run or two. It probably took me about two months to cap the Earth plane's T1, and I consider myself somewhere between the casual and hardcore line of player. And this is only one character in a game where if I wanted to be the Mage, Cleric, or Rogue callings, I'd have to level another character entirely and do it all again for them.
But you know what? I consider it an intelligent time sink. Why? For starters, it doesn't waste EXP post-50. It's something you can use to build your character alongside doing your usual activities. Finally, the only thing stopping you from utilizing it is yourself. Don't be fooled, though, even if an individual character is limited to one of the four callings, they still have a number of souls not unlike FFXI's job system, complete with the ability to mix and match. While I didn't personally take the time to chase gear for damage dealing purposes on my Warrior when a tank wasn't needed, the option was there, and my PA investments would've helped.
FFXI is ultimately no different in this regard. However, jobs like PLD, DRK, WAR, SAM, and DRG aren't locked to a generic warrior paradigm while a rogue type would contain THF, DNC, NIN, RNG, COR, and so on and so forth. Very few people level multiple characters on the same account. The game never encouraged it and there's no true benefit to doing so. As a consequence, the limitations of the merit system stick out like a sore thumb for those whose "favorites" don't synergize well with their merit choices. My current favorite jobs are probably RDM, BLU, DRK, and THF. Sword works for RDM and BLU, Dagger for THF and RDM, but Great Sword would only help DRK even though I also have WAR and PLD leveled. I ultimately wound up putting my combat merits in Sword, Dagger, Axe, and Club because I came to the conclusion that one-handed jobs needed the ATK/ACC help more than two-handers. I've never been big into the H2H jobs, ruling that out, and Katana only applies to NIN even though I realize they're also a one-handed job. If I had the choice to merit everything, though, you'd bet your britches I would. I wouldn't have it done the day after patch, or probably not even a month or two after. It'd still be something to do with a resource that I'll otherwise soon be wasting once I polish off STR merits and decide on a third WS to merit. Yeah, I'm one of the kooks with her other 75+ jobs' merits capped. Why? I play a fair deal. Why? I don't limit myself to my favorite jobs because sometimes my friends and linkshell need something specific that nobody else available can offer.
So, kindly bleep off with the logic that I have to settle for being inferior because someone with less play time or drive might have their feelings hurt by not being "as dedicated" as me or anyone like me. I just want to do my own thing in peace with my pals. Furthermore, the merit system can always be built upon, just like how the new WS or G2s were added to it. -
01-06-2012, 09:07 AMGreatguardianList is crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Return1
Apex? Get a Gandiva.
Blade: Shun? Get a Kannagi.
Entropy? Tell the DRKs that.
Requiescat? Get an Almace.
Last Stand: Situationally comparable to Wildfire if and only if you have the Attack to support it, but not nearly as useful. Does not blow the Empyrean out of the water.
Realmrazer: No one else uses clubs. Paladin? Get an Almace. Blu? Get an Almace.
Shattersoul: No one really cares, to be honest. Could have been put to better use on a better weapon type.
Shijin: Requires a relic to barely edge out Verethragna. Get a Verethragna.
Oh yeah, Exenterator: What needs to be said is it only does well outside Abyssea, and only if you're not stacking a force-crit JA with it. Both dagger users have force-crit JAs. It's a situational sidegrade WS that's inherently tied down by the fact that you don't often see situations where Dagger users are actually in groups large enough to give them the support spells required (and to fight the large monster types required) to do a meaningful number of WS without a force-crit. WS frequency is inhibited when spamming weak mobs, which is where you most often see Dncs and Thfs.
"Fucking Awesome"? Hardly. Even the best are sidegrades aside from Tachi: Shoha and Stardiver, 2/12 relevant WS. No I'm not going to count Staff and Club because I honestly don't give a damn. No point giving awesome WS to those weapons if no one's capable of using them to any degree of proficiency.
Ruinator is a shame too considering it's actually decent, but it's BST so again no one cares. All of the good WS are tempered in some way by the jobs that actually use them aside from Shoha, but it's kinda obvious why SAM gets nice toys. -
01-06-2012, 09:19 AMFrankReynoldsHey everyone can attain all the same gear if they try hard enough. Might as well just give all the gear away too huh? Why even have gear if everyone can just get it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
They were put there so that players could continue to grow in strength, and have reasons to continue grinding, without the dev team having to do a full on level increase, and all the work that goes with it. Everyone had the same stuff, and there was none of this diversity you think your preserving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Yes, I hate any game where I can't play different jobs effectively. That's why I am playing this game. Those other games have their own forums. I don't really care what the pros and cons of them are. I play this one because it offers me diversity in what role I can play. As far as a silver platter, We're talking about being able to spend points that I earned. Not getting points for free. I have points I can't spend, and jobs that could really use them. Where's the fun in that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Cool. People don't and won't. On a side note. They recently changed the Exp system so that people can in fact level and play every job fairly easily now. They still don't do it, but they can. You should check it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Did you think they were going to say "yeah, we knew you would run out of space, but we didn't really care."?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
So basically, people already diversify on their own, but you think it should be forced upon them instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
OK, go look on the AH and see how much you will have to spend to add 16 skill, 8 attack/accuracy, and 15 strength to both your TP and WS sets for your favorite job. Get back to me when you have that kind of gil laying around. that is from just 3 categories of merits. Then try getting your ls to let your Mage merited sam spam gekko on VW mobs in that because your sam doesn't have shoha either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Each category in itself is somewhat of a small difference, but the more jobs you level, the more gimp they become. The more effort you put into your character in this regard, the less reward you get.
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Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Talent trees are cool, But they have to lead to equally powerful jobs. IE: if one tree makes you an awesome support blu, while another guy is a great DD blu, ok. While that still doesn't let you do everything, it does allow you to get the same performance as the next guy, if you put in the same amount of time and effort.
If one tree makes You great at one job, but a Gimp at 15 others, then very few people will bother with anything but the three most popular jobs. FFXI already has enough job favoritism. -
01-06-2012, 10:29 AMUnleashhellSo again why even have a combat skill merit category? Why not just cap the skill for all weapons at a certain point? Maybe I'm not wording things correctly, but for instance if you cap at sword at 424 then add your 8/8 merits you will have 440 skill. Why not just raise the skill level to cap out at 440 to begin with and eliminate the combat skill merit category all together? Being everyone wants to fully merit every single combat skill to its fullest it totally makes the combat merit system pointless. Once you fully merit every skill to its cap there is no diversity between people in the combat skill category if they all have capped combat skill merits.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankReynolds
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01-06-2012, 01:46 PMKarbuncleReally the first time I've seen you say something pretty bad.Quote:
Oh yeah, Exenterator: What needs to be said is it only does well outside Abyssea, and only if you're not stacking a force-crit JA with it. Both dagger users have force-crit JAs. It's a situational sidegrade WS that's inherently tied down by the fact that you don't often see situations where Dagger users are actually in groups large enough to give them the support spells required (and to fight the large monster types required) to do a meaningful number of WS without a force-crit. WS frequency is inhibited when spamming weak mobs, which is where you most often see Dncs and Thfs.
Exenterator perform exceptionally well Stacked, as much as unstacked. Being the best Unstacked WS we have give it its Bad-ass Status as is. I'm not sure If you've done a lot of VW on THF (Probably not, Useless etc), but you rarely, RARELY, have SA or TA up when you have TP. more than 80% of my WS I pop off Without SA or TA Timers being up, and Exenterator can do upward 1800~1900 Unstacked on Some of the mobs(Usually around 900~1400) (Hit it a few times on Akvan, Nothing special, Can provide proof if needed :X, But again, Nothing special)
Point being, for a THF WS, It stacks right up there, and its only outclassed "Stacked" If you have Rudra's or Mercy, Its also the best Stacked WS if you don't have Rudra's/Mercy.
Its really nowhere near a Sidegrade, It so far outclasses Evisceration(anywhere outside OF Brokebyssea) and DE its definitely an Upgrade WS, one of the better ones.
Sure, you won't use THF a lot in these situations, Most LS's don't, But for a Thief WS, Ignoring pointless arguments like "lol why bring a THF", its definitely an upgrade to a Thief's arsenal.
Maybe I'm reading what you said wrong :X -
01-06-2012, 02:25 PMFrankReynoldsMost people won't bother to merit everything. Especially if the caps on these require high numbers of merits, like 30 - 50 per level. Capping WS and non job specific stuff doesn't make everyone a special snowflake. It just annoys the people who want to do more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
Think hard. Do you want your <insert job here> to be the best one around because you spent time getting all your gear sets, and macros, and play style straight? or do you want it to be because there was a lack of competition due to people being capped on merits, and not liking that job as much? Personally, I want my dancer to be bad ass because I made it bad ass. Not because everyone else merited GA, GK, and H2h. -
01-06-2012, 02:32 PMGreatguardianIt's an upgrade over non-Emp/Relic WS for sure, but I'm taking all of the WS in the context of the real "best" counterparts. I don't use Thf myself, but I find that my Mandau buddy very rarely uses Extent because it's so badly outclassed when stacked. Both Rudra's and Mercy should destroy it stacked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
Personally I just don't really see Thf used often outside of Abyssea or Dynamis, which is why I brought those two events up. In Dynamis, you lose out on theoretical WS frequency because you're fighting a lot of weak monsters and waiting for procs a lot, which means you're basically able to SA every WS. In Abyssea, Evisceration will beat it unstacked so there's no contest there either.
If a THF is actually around in Voidwatch, it's probably their best unstacked WS (though still handily beaten by Rudra/Mercy stacked), that's just not a very common application for the WS since Thf and Dnc aren't the most popular additions to VW (especially since TH can't bypass the light cap - changing this would be an incredible buff to the job and would hopefully help a bit in making Voidwatch drops less head-smashingly terrible). It's like how Shattersoul and Ruinator are pretty nice WS on paper, but SmnMelee and Bst being SmnMelee and Bst make the WS significantly less useful in practice. Extenterator is nice outside Abyssea on strong monsters where you have the WS frequency to use multiple unstacked WS. People just don't actually do that. -
01-06-2012, 03:01 PMdarkhorror
Ruinator is quite nice. with normal 5 hits landing(which included DW) you have an ftp of 6.0 at 100% up to 9.6 if you manage 8 hits, an attack bonus higher than 22%, STR mod.
Also BST is underestimated, with something like it's slug pet you can use corrosive ooze which drops the mobs def and attack by a lot, I think 33% though I haven't tested that. This will raise the entire alliance damage by a lot. -
01-06-2012, 03:14 PMProthscar
Slug pet's Corrosive Ooze is analogous of the monster and blue magic version of 5% for both attack and defense down. Sure as shit is not 33%.
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01-06-2012, 03:16 PMdarkhorrorHave you tested it out on BST? as I know it's sure as hell isn't 5%Quote:
Originally Posted by Prothscar
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01-06-2012, 03:37 PMAlhanelemNot everybody wants the same gear though.Quote:
Hey everyone can attain all the same gear if they try hard enough.
Those things alone do not totally make or break your combat capability unless you're an elitist perfectionist. 8 attack/accuracyt aren't hard to come by. If by strength you mean attribute merits, most people seem to get STR regardless of the jobs they play because it has some kind of benefit for almost everybody depending on the situation. 16 skill is what provides the attack and accuracy you mentioned. I realize it's not that simple, but we're not talking a dramatic difference in damage here. If you're not in an elitist linkshell, and you really NEED a SAM and your SAM without GK and STR merits is the only one around, you can still play that needed role. Not as well, but I can't think of any fight in the game where 16 combat skill and 15 STR on a single person (assuming they at least have proper gear) will determine if you win or not.Quote:
OK, go look on the AH and see how much you will have to spend to add 16 skill, 8 attack/accuracy, and 15 strength to both your TP and WS sets for your favorite job. Get back to me when you have that kind of gil laying around.
People already diversify on their own because of the merit system. Without the merit system, there would be no difference between one SAM and the next except for their gear (Don't talk to me about skill, it doesn't take a genius to play SAM effectively). So I guess, yes- it should be forced on us. Why should one person get to be the best at everything? Shouldn't people who focus on a few jobs get to be stronger with them?Quote:
So basically, people already diversify on their own, but you think it should be forced upon them instead?
You missed the point of the statement. The point is that the developers were caught off guard because they designed the game around an assumption that a few people would end up breaking. You can play a few jobs and still run out of space. The mention of storage space was only to vaguely source the statement (since I can't find the exact original statement right this moment) and is not part of why the merit system is good the way it is.Quote:
Did you think they were going to say "yeah, we knew you would run out of space, but we didn't really care."?
Yes, that's part of it, but not to grow in strength universally, to grow in strength in specific ways chosen by the player. There is no reprecussion for decision making if you can get it all eventually anyway. It makes your choices have more meaning. There is more than one reason for the merit system, but specialization is one of them and that cannot be denied.Quote:
They were put there so that players could continue to grow in strength
They didn't change the EXP gain to say "hey, you can play all 20 jobs now, and you have to!" They did it because the game is old and growth speed is always increased as MMOs get older, so that newer players who join can catch up to the existing players. There is no obligation of people to level every job, and the reason some people specifically refuse to is so that they can actually play the jobs they like instead of being limited to the 5 most popular jobs that are the only ones "accepted" for endgame at any given time. There's 20 jobs, not 5, if you level them all up and get to merit them all 100%, the pigeonholing will be even worse than it is with the restricted merit system. All you will ever see (at least, with the way things have been for the last while) are WARs MNKs, SAMs, WHMs and BRDs with rare exceptions.Quote:
Cool. People don't and won't. On a side note. They recently changed the Exp system so that people can in fact level and play every job fairly easily now. They still don't do it, but they can. You should check it out.
Job favoritism will be worse, not better, this way. Everyone has every job and has equal base capability with every job, so we can always have the 5 core jobs we always need! How convenient! People being stronger with some jobs than others, as well as not having every job,helps promote the development of alternative strategies, instead of everyone always using the same strategy for everything.Quote:
If one tree makes You great at one job, but a Gimp at 15 others, then very few people will bother with anything but the three most popular jobs. FFXI already has enough job favoritism.
People are talking about the merit system like it's broken or something, when it's not. Customization is bad! Same is good! -
01-06-2012, 04:02 PMKarbuncleI wouldn't say "Destroy", The WS itself is rather powerful, In Voidwatch I've peaked 3k+ Stacked or higher. I don't really pay much attention, I Can dig up some parses. But its pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
But yah, Mercy Stroke/Rudra's is what puts it to shame, But your THF Friend should use it -alot- If you're fighting a mob you zerg/Beat to piss almost non-stop. (Like say, Akvan, or anytime you have a Fanatics up)
Well, It really does perform quite well in dynamis, Unstacked and Stacked - Again, Unless you have Rudra's Mercy.Quote:
Personally I just don't really see Thf used often outside of Abyssea or Dynamis, which is why I brought those two events up. In Dynamis, you lose out on theoretical WS frequency because you're fighting a lot of weak monsters and waiting for procs a lot, which means you're basically able to SA every WS. In Abyssea, Evisceration will beat it unstacked so there's no contest there either.
Either way, I think despite how baddly i word somethings, We essentially agree. its great uNstacked/Stacked if you don't have a Relic. Still, as far as THF Weaponskills Go? its #1 Unstacked, #3 Stacked.
I use it enormously, But this will probably slow down when i get my Mandau :X -
01-06-2012, 04:03 PMProthscarLimules on the test server indicated 5% when I ran the test during my stint on abusing that system as much as I could. Feel free to do it yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror
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01-06-2012, 04:09 PMdarkhorrorI guess you never tested it on BST, BLU corrosive ooze sucks, Beastmasters doesn't. I am going to sleep now and I couldn't get my attack low enough to test to see exact number yet but it's well over 25%. as fighting beetles where I brought my attack low enough so they would con high defense. Then used corrosive ooze they then conned low defense, I didn't have low enough attack to get it to where they would con neutral, i'll test tomorrow while using a dagger so I can lower my attack enough to see how much def- it actually is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prothscar
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01-06-2012, 04:09 PMReturn1Not everyone wants to bother with a Gandiva. Newer testing shows that Jishnu's is retard strong. The only use for Apex is ridiculously strong High Evasion/Defense mobs. That and SAM. Still useful and arguably the best outside of Jishnu's.Quote:
Apex? Get a Gandiva.
Same stupid argument? Well, Blade: Shun and Blade: Hi outside abyssea really comes down to mob defense, and crit rate. Blade: Shun has a better WSC mod with 100% DEX, and a higher fTP value, the only thing in Hi's favor are Shun's attack penalty and crits. So for events where you rip through a lot of low defense trash mobs, Shun is a great tool to have. Dynamis, Einherjar, Limbus, Nyzul, etc for example.Quote:
Blade: Shun? Get a Kannagi.
DRKs, and on this board in particular, are pathetically bad in general. As a fairly amazing long-time DRK myself, I can vouch for it being 100% better than every scythe WS by miles. Catastrophe with a 90+ Apoc was handily our Strongest Scythe WS. Now Entropy is. In the past an INT mod may have been less than desirable but today INT gear makes for wonderful WS piece. Twilight Helm, Twilight Mail, Relic +2 hands, Dilaram's/Bale +2 Sollerets for example all have great INT boosts and are amazing for WS. All jobs get access for good INT Rings, Earring, and Ammo. The neck and waist are always Belt/Gorget so that's a wash. So INT mods are not so lol anymore, and that goes for almost all mods but CHR anymore.Quote:
Entropy? Tell the DRKs that.
TL;DR: The DRKs who think Entropy sucks for a Scythe WS are retards. I would not be surprised if they don't gear for INT because they think INT mod only affects MP drain.
Requiescat sucks, but if it didn't have that -20% attack, it could be a sturdy WS. As it stands, it's current main use is for BLUs wanting to close Self Darkness with Quadrastrike for ridiculous numbers, which actually makes it very useful. Keep making the "get this weapon argument".Quote:
Requiescat? Get an Almace.
Get a Spharai you gimp!Quote:
Shijin: Requires a relic to barely edge out Verethragna. Get a Verethragna.
See how that works?
You can't even say that it's not the same either, because nowadays you can easily pump out gil for a relic in the same amount of time as it takes to farm your own Empyrean.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.Quote:
Oh yeah, Exenterator: What needs to be said is it only does well outside Abyssea, and only if you're not stacking a force-crit JA with it. Both dagger users have force-crit JAs. It's a situational sidegrade WS that's inherently tied down by the fact that you don't often see situations where Dagger users are actually in groups large enough to give them the support spells required (and to fight the large monster types required) to do a meaningful number of WS without a force-crit. WS frequency is inhibited when spamming weak mobs, which is where you most often see Dncs and Thfs.
You're Wrong.
You won't find a DNC or THF worth a damn that has anything bad to say about Exenterator. It's the best unstacked outside abyssea and if you're worth a damn, most of your WSes are likely to be unstacked. The mods is damn amazing too.
BST is kinda a big deal now. Lots of people have or are leveling it because it's pretty useful for soloing anything just about anything in the game, it's also now a legit heavy DD thanks to new pets that kick ass, compared to the old weaklings they had before. Ruinator is amazing 5/5.Quote:
Ruinator is a shame too considering it's actually decent, but it's BST so again no one cares. All of the good WS are tempered in some way by the jobs that actually use them aside from Shoha, but it's kinda obvious why SAM gets nice toys.
The situation is outside of abyssea, then yes, Last stand is situationally useful. As endgame starts to finally balance out, you're going to see even more magic resistant mobs coming. It also depends on Buffs/debuffs on the target and the job using the gun. For example on RNG you have to be in a pretty poor situation on a mob with no magic damage resistance for Wildfire to pull ahead. Otherwise you'd use a big ass gun and a big ass bullet and use Last stand.Quote:
Last Stand: Situationally comparable to Wildfire if and only if you have the Attack to support it, but not nearly as useful. Does not blow the Empyrean out of the water.
Fun side note: On trash mobs THF can play with multihit daggers and a culverin and spam last stand like a KC RNG in the old days. No real point but it's pretty fun.
Tachi: Shoha, Stardiver, Entropy, Resolution, Ruinator, Exenterator, Shijin Spiral, and Last stand are at least situationally if not ALWAYS the strongest WS of their weapon type outside of abyssea. That qualifies them as fucking awesome.Quote:
"Fucking Awesome"? Hardly. Even the best are sidegrades aside from Tachi: Shoha and Stardiver, 2/12 relevant WS. No I'm not going to count Staff and Club because I honestly don't give a damn. No point giving awesome WS to those weapons if no one's capable of using them to any degree of proficiency.
Blade Shun is pretty damn close to awesome, it's a solid upgrade barring Kannagi
Apex, Upheaval, and Requiescat are situationally useful.
Realmrazer is just sad and lonely hoping someone's taking WAR/PLD/SAM to apollyon SE lol.
You've shown you know very little about a lot. -
01-06-2012, 04:10 PMGreatguardianWe're basically on the same page, yeah. I just figure if I'm going to knock Shijin down as being inferior to Smite unless you have Spharai, then it's at least consistent to say that Extent is inferior to Rudra/Mercy unless you're stacking it outside Abyssea (Stacked Rudra/Mercy will always win in/out, and Evis unstacked should win inside).Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
It's just not often that I see unstacked dagger WS outside Abyssea, personally. Especially after the introduction of White proc, and given just how big a pain in the ass a lot of the new NMs are if fought for too long, terrorlock zergs with White are pretty much the most effective way to VW at the moment and one-handers are generally not too apt in those situations.
If someone doesn't have Rudra's/Mercy, Extent is nice. But that's also like saying Raging Rush is nice if you don't have Ukko's Fury. I'm more concerned with the end-goal than the interim WS. If something can't stay useful past a certain point of character development, then it's really not that useful at all.
Edit:
Post above me,
Am building Spharai, because it's better. No complaints there.
See discussion on Extenterator over the past couple of pages for comments there. Extent is worthless because Thief and Dancer are not useful on any content where Extent would actually be used at all.
No one gives a shit about BST or BST solo.
Ranger? Get a Gandiva. Corsair? Last Stand is not beating Wildfire unless you're rocking Gjallar Mins, RCB, possibly Berserk (though subbing WAR is a bad idea overall), and fighting a fairly weak target. It's situationally useful on targets that resist Fire or Magical damage. It is not an Arma-killer.
I missed Resolution, though.
Resolution, Tachi: Shoha, and Stardiver are pretty nice and are actually used to some effect on quasi-relevant jobs.
Ruinator sucks because BST is trash. Shijin Spiral is literally only able to keep pace with Vereth when you have a 130Million gil weapon and a literally perfect WS set - hardly a WS that blows Smite out of the water. Last Stand is weaker than Wildfire on the only job that should be using it at all unless you're getting extreme buffs. Entropy is irrelevant because Resolution is better.
Having fun with your Spherical Chickens?
I like doing math in a vacuum too. It's so much easier when you don't have to look at the reality of the situation and realize that a WS could have 15 fTP and a 300% STR mod and no one would give a flying fuck about it if that WS was SCH specific on Staff. -
01-06-2012, 04:16 PMProthscarWhat part of that makes you think I wasn't on BST? Again, use limules. They're far easier to manage. Accounting for possible errors in the test, most I could see is 25% for a somewhat short duration. 33% for both sounds high.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror
Just went and got two sample sets very quickly.
No debuff
444 atk
278 def
Debuff 1
332 atk
208 def
Debuff 2
296 atk
185 def
Set 1 coincides with almost exactly a 25% decrease to both stats.
Set 2 coincides with an oddball decimal between 33% and 34% decreases to both stats.
Variable effect seems likely, or it may degrade over time.
Another odd set.
388
243
Almost exactly coincides with a 12.5% decrease to both stats.
Possibly a bug with the test server, as a variable Attack/Defense debuff doesn't seem right. -
01-06-2012, 05:17 PMReturn1
So essentially your argument is I think these jobs are useless so any powerful WSes for them sucks?
God you're a gigantic retard.
And so is your Get <Item> Argument, like you're gonna solo it fast if you have a life (the having a life argument is valid here because if you have a life sitting in a room by yourself fighting polygons by yourself for hours on end is just...), or your group is going to be cool farming you every time you want to pick up a job, before you.
Of course you think THF is useless in content where Exenterator would be used, like Dynamis/Nyzul/Limbus, all things where TH plays a large role and have been or will soon be upgraded.
Entropy isn't so far behind Resolution as you would think. Resolution is ahead in fTP, and the STR mod is better than Entropy's INT mod, though not by nearly as much as people imagine today. But the tradeoff is the -8% ATK, and slower WS due to a 6-hit vs 5-hit.Quote:
Entropy is irrelevant because Resolution is better.
The best DRK DD setup involves Apoc and Entropy builds.
The only reason most DRKs complain about Entropy is that they suck.
Though it's hyperbole, a SCH with a 15fTP and 300%STR WS would be the best DD in the game, but people like you would still call it useless. Which is funny because thet's the position BST is in now as a DD. It's actually pretty high up there thanks to gear/pet/ability advancements, but fools still disregard it. -
01-06-2012, 10:41 PMFrankReynoldsNot everyone wants the same merits though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Cool, well I guess I'll just stop wasting time on upgrades to gear too. It doesn't make or break my combat capabilities. Full pink power ranger ftw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
No. If I put in more time / effort into my jobs, you shouldn't get to be better just because my other jobs got capped. Most sams have the same merits, and if they don't, they aren't getting invited to many things on sam are they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
I really didn't. You said they didn't expect it to happen. They knew people would cap merits. They are the ones who added all the new ways to exp faster. They just didn't compensate for it. They are adding more to the merit system, and it shouldn't be done this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Lets be very clear here. Everyone can technically get everything in the game. It doesn't just apply to merits. Everyone will not cap everything. Just the things they need for their jobs. You keep acting like people are going to automatically get fully capped merits in every category for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Everyone has the same merits now. There is none of this customization you talk about. People just don't play the jobs that they can't merit because un-merited jobs suck. Who wants to be gimp all the time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
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01-07-2012, 01:19 AMdarkhorrorYou must have tested on blue before because you said it was 5% which is what BLU does for corrosive ooze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prothscar
Your results could be due to some sort of resistance though that would be strange, also what buffs, food, gear did you have when getting those numbers?
I did a test vs beetles where I know their defense, it did lower their defense by 33%. aka their (mob defense)*.666, or (mob defense)/1.5
I guess now I need to go look for something with a lot of fire resistance which I can test on. -
01-07-2012, 02:07 AMGreatguardianRL card some more. Calling mediocre WS "good" just because you don't have anything better on your personal character is like calling Raging Rush superawesomez because getting a Ukon is "hard". What happened to Relics/Emps being easy to grind out? We had agreed on that point up until this post, unless you were just kidding and actually think that's a reasonable boon to the WS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Return1
Extenterator should almost never be used in Dynamis unless you're doing Arch NMs, and we have no idea where Nyzul and Limbus changes will leave the job. Current Nyzul changes look like complete and utter trash, so it may not be relevant at all. How does Dynamis flow? Sit and try to proc mob > Proc > Run behind it > SA Mercy > mob is dead. Rinse and repeat.
Not one-shotting things with SA Mercy? Seriously, suck less.
A SCH with a 15fTP and 300% STR WS would still be shit because you're throwing a nice WS onto a shit job with no gear, abilities, or traits to back up the power of the WS. You'll never, ever cap cRatio on SCH and you sure as hell aren't going to be TP'ing or WS'ing in any reasonable setup. A 300% STR WSC is extremely gear-dependent, and if there's one thing SCH certainly isn't overflowing with it's STR/DD gear.
WS can look "neat" on paper all they want, they'll still be completely irrelevant if you actually look at their context. I'd like to see what you consider "high up there", but you'll probably just throw more spherical chickens at me like how Analhelm insists that PUP is "a really good DD if anyone gives it a chance".
But sure, go ahead and backpedal/AdHom more. Ukko's and Smite are powerful because War and Mnk are powerful. Those are fucking awesome WS because they're actually used properly by fucking awesome jobs. Stringing Pummel is irrelevant because the only job that gets it is PUP, which is like saying "Hey, I can swing a bat like Babe Ruth, I'll just have to roll to first base with my wheelchair. MLB scout me please?"
Oh yeah, and really, the other 9 WS are so far entrenched in sidegrade-ism that "fucking awesome" is the absolute last thing I'd use to describe them. They're fine for mediocre players who can only do mediocre things like EXP but can't handle actually acquiring anything better. That doesn't make them awesome - just a crutch. -
01-07-2012, 03:20 AMAlhanelemWhich is why you get to choose. Thanks for proving my point.Quote:
Not everyone wants the same merits though.
Ridiculous extremes do not enhance your argument. Also, job specific merits are not at issue: only the global ones are.Quote:
Cool, well I guess I'll just stop wasting time on upgrades to gear too. It doesn't make or break my combat capabilities. Full pink power ranger ftw.
Such a person doesn't care that they aren't getting invited to many things on SAM. They only have it there for when another SAM is not available within their group/linkshell.Quote:
Most sams have the same merits, and if they don't, they aren't getting invited to many things on sam are they?
Please point me to the proof that they "knew" this. They knew a few hardcore elitists with no life would do it. They don't balance most of the game around hardcore elitists, because they are a very small percentage of the population.Quote:
They knew people would cap merits. They are the ones who added all the new ways to exp faster. They just didn't compensate for it. They are adding more to the merit system, and it shouldn't be done this way.
With the current rates of EXP gain, that's not far from the truth. Maintaining these limitations is the only way to keep the distinction between characters that they originally provided. You seem to forget that the merit system was ADVERTISED to be a way to customize your character. If you can get everything, then there's no real customization now is there?Quote:
Everyone will not cap everything. Just the things they need for their jobs. You keep acting like people are going to automatically get fully capped merits in every category for free.
Actually, not-fully-merited jobs do not "suck." Maybe to your standards, but not to normal person standards. Not meriting a combat skill doesn't cut your damage in half or make your job nonfunctional. You won't perform *as well*, but you can still do what's needed in a pinch if someone who did merit that stuff isn't avialable. The whole goddam point is to make people different.Quote:
People just don't play the jobs that they can't merit because un-merited jobs suck. Who wants to be gimp all the time?
---------------------------
Actually, that's ridiculous enough that people would end up trying to use it. SCH also isn't totally without ways to boost its combat stats (though not by enough for normal purposes, for an insane WS like that, it would be a big deal). Adloquium for a little extra TP, Firestorm (with merits) for extra STR (+7 STR would be +21 BD on fantasy WS) sub WAR get beserk/warcry/attack bonus... say you took 15.0 fTP and 300% STR fTP mod and applied that to retribution- that's more than 5 times stronger than the Retribution would be at 300% TP and would be at least acceptable damage with a "weapon" staff instead of a stat stick.Quote:
A SCH with a 15fTP and 300% STR WS would still be shit because you're throwing a nice WS onto a shit job with no gear
You give someone some ridiculous mods, people will find a way to exploit it. Being on a job that sucks at melee or a crappy weapon isn't going to be enough to stop it.
Is it really necessary for you to be so inflammatory? I haven't even said anything.Quote:
but you'll probably just throw more spherical chickens at me like how Analhelm insists that PUP is "a really good DD if anyone gives it a chance".
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01-07-2012, 04:23 AMProthscarFor the fifth time I did not test on BLUQuote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror
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01-07-2012, 05:50 AMMavrickThe quote below was taken from a test conducted when the Slug pet and Corrosive Ooze was first released... So unless something was changes they should still be accurate.Quote:
What part of that makes you think I wasn't on BST? Again, use limules. They're far easier to manage. Accounting for possible errors in the test, most I could see is 25% for a somewhat short duration. 33% for both sounds high.
Duration seems to be around ~90 seconds...Quote:
Checked again just to be certain:
After using Corrosive Ooze on Chasm Gnat I then brawled on it until it used Pandemic Nip (transfers enfeebles from monster to player), at which point Attack Down and Defense Down was transferred to me.
Before gaining Attack/Defense Down effects
Attack: 549
Defense: 440
After gaining Attack/Defense Down effects
Attack: 366
Defense: 293
So basically lost roughly 1/3 of my original attack and defense.
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01-07-2012, 06:02 AMFrankReynoldsOk, I choose to cap 15/15 strength Dex and INT. Can you show me where I do that in the menu? no? guess I don't really get to choose do I? I can either pick being a mediocre DD or a mediocre mage. That's really not much of a choice at all. Take a look at the census. Everyone is meriting the same crap. Removing these caps does nothing but allowing people to play their jobs a little better (IF They choose to invest the time to merit them).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Really? Your telling me that it's impossible that that guy could want to cap his merits?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
uhhhh....People who have gone to abyssea exp parties are not a small percentage of the population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
I was unaware that they added the free relic moogle to the live server so that everyone could have mythics relics and empys at their disposal. Do people not have to earn / quest gear anymore? Is there a new moogle that gives you every piece of gear and leaves nothing up to you but picking your merits? Did they make it so that you automatically get capped merits now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Since when are the merits the only way to differentiate yourself from another player (not that they do that now. I guarantee that you have nearly the same merits as most other people)?
Actually, since you believe that everyone has the same gear, and there is nothing left to differentiate them but merits..... not having the merits does in fact mean that they suck. Merits can't be unimportant to performance, and also be the only means to differentiate characters at the same time. They are either important or they unimportant. If you don't think they make a significant difference in play, then you should have no reason to care if I cap them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Why is being different so important to you? You should be worried about being good. If being good means doing something that no one else thought of yet, then you should do it anyways. They will catch on. If being good means wearing the same gear as everyone else, then you should do that too. Merits are performance enhancements. You can always get a funny T-shirt or something if you want to be different. All this different talk really sounds like "I want to be better than the next guy, but he has access to the same stuff as me ; ;". Isn't him being WHM and you being a Puppet master enough difference? -
01-07-2012, 07:12 AMAlhanelem
NOTE: If you'd like to condense all this crap into a single sentence, here we go: "Letting everyone merit all merits to the maximum would be worse for the game than just leaving it as it is now, because it would promote conformity to singular strategies and make many jobs more forgotten than they already are."
The rest of this post is not worth reading unless you're the person whom I'm quoting, so I'll just minimize it for the rest of you.
Where did I say I believe that? Stop twisting words.Quote:
Actually, since you believe that everyone has the same gear
I'm not worried about being good. Being good is something that happens because you put work and effort into what you do, and I do that. This is just another conformity vs uniqueness debate. I can just flip it around and ask why you want everything to be the same, except gear? and why is gear an acceptable exception when the merit system isn't?Quote:
Why is being different so important to you? You should be worried about being good.
it might "sound like" it to you, but that's not what it is. It's "I want to be different" not "I want to be better."Quote:
All this different talk really sounds like "I want to be better than the next guy, but he has access to the same stuff as me ; ;".
Not by itself, nope. "Him" can be better at one and I can be better at another job. The current merit system facilitates that- people who focus on certain jobs can stand out on them more- however this doesn't prevent anyone else from filling the role if that person isn't there.Quote:
Isn't him being WHM and you being a Puppet master enough difference?
No, I'm not telling you that. Given the chance, everyone would want to get all of everything. Why have less when you can have more. MORE MORE MORE GIMME MORE! The merit system makes you make decisions. It's no different than running into a fork in the road. You have to go one way or the other. Are you unable to make such decisions?Quote:
Really? Your telling me that it's impossible that that guy could want to cap his merits?
"people who have gone to abyssea exp parties" and "hardcore elitists" are not the same group of people. The game is not specifically balanced around meeting the needs of the top 0.1% of the playerbase. I suppose you're trying to argue that everyone has gone to an abyssea EXP party and leveled up every job to 99 just because it's not a hard thing to do. It still takes time and some people don't want to play some jobs and most people don't like EXPing so much that they want to level up a job just for the sake of leveling it.Quote:
uhhhh....People who have gone to abyssea exp parties are not a small percentage of the population.
The merit system ensures that people who level up every job can't easily be the best at all of them, totally undermining the efforts of players who have dedicated themselves to mastery of a few classes - not just one, as you can easily choose several within the limits of the merit system-
Players should not be forced to level up all 20 jobs to 99 in order to be considered "good." Devotion to a few and strengthening them as much as possible should make them more valuable when those jobs are needed than the person who leveled up all 20 jobs and doesn't have the best gear and merits for all of them. Because of how fast EXP has gotten and how easy certain events have gotten, it's getting harder and harder to be a master of a few versus a jack of many. If everyone is able to play all classes optimally, then it's really almost like there's only one real class in the game, and on top of that, everyone will just form fit into the most optimal strategy- after all, everybody has everything, so there's no excuse for anything other than the first strategy people find that works to be used. Letting everyone have everything limits possibilities, because everyone will gravitate toward the same method for everything. Someone PLEASE tell me why this is a good thing.
Finally, tying this more to the topic: If you need to have the weapon skills just for the sake of having them, then go ahead and merit all of them. They won't be as strong, sure, but you have them all. -
01-07-2012, 08:10 AMWindwhisper
i peronally think. Since new WS are below most existing once even when 5/5 merited we should have had the option to upgrade each and every one of the new ones to 5/5. many of us have more than just 3 jobs they like to play and would have loved to actually use the WS for their main weapon.
Seeing a 3/5 Realmrazer doing 350ish dmg with 300 TP is simply disspointing and not worth the 3 merits at all. -
01-07-2012, 08:14 AMFrankReynoldsIt's not twisting words. It's deductive reasoning. If you think that the only way to differentiate your character from the next is through merits, then clearly that means that all differences in gear and play style have been eliminated. Hence : "everyone has the same gear".Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Because the amount of effort required to completely max out all gear is substantial enough that no one would conceivably achieve that. Thus the chances of a player capping out on gear will be limited to a few jobs at most. Merits on the other hand can be easily capped out, and therefore create an artificial barrier that has very little to do with skill, time or effort. If people could cap all those categories, most still wouldn't by choice. I challenge you to point me at even one player who can say that they have absolutely nothing left that they can do to make their gear better, and are therefore powerless to be different. Some will say they are done, but if you put their gear under a microscope, you will find flaw. There is always room to tweak gear, and the degree to which it is done is up to the player to determine ( choice ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Then why are you worrying about performance enhancing traits? Become a melee mage, or play samurai as a support job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
IF I play 8 hours a day on 2 jobs, and you play 2 hours a day on 1, you getting to be better at the 1 despite the fact that I play them more is ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
When leveling 1 job was an enormous freaking chore, having that fork was not really much of a fork at all. The choice was easy because most people only had a couple jobs and rarely had to sacrifice anything. Many of them had unpopular jobs, and had a hard time even getting the merits in the first place. That is no longer the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
I know, that's why we don't need the caps. People aren't going to do everything anyways. It's simply an added benefit to the longtime players and people who have more time. Everyone isn't going to suddenly have all the merits and all be the same like you describe. They will all still have 3-7 jobs leveled on avg, and ignore the categories that don't suit their needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Sounds good in theory. In practice, That guy who has all jobs 99 probably has shit gear for half of them, and even if he magically got all the best gear for every job, he still wouldn't play them all as well as someone who plays that with a passion. I thought you wanted to be different anyways, not the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Its not letting everyone have everything. They still have to gear and master these jobs. I really don't know where your getting that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
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01-07-2012, 09:08 AMAlhanelemI don't think that it's the ONLY way to differentiate. But I DO think (because it's a fact) that the merit system was designed to provide more ways to differentiate your character. Also, gear doesn't differentiate us as much as I would like because you see a lot of people gravitating toward a small pool of gear deemed to be "the best." Merits do have a similar problem, but it's not as pronounced because not every potential choice to be made with merits is as clear-cut.Quote:
If you think that the only way to differentiate your character from the next is through merits, then clearly that means that all differences in gear and play style have been eliminated. Hence
It IS letting everyone have everything. Everyone is talking about how easy it is to get EXP and merits. using the logic poised by others, it should take very little time to "master" those jobs.Quote:
Its not letting everyone have everything. They still have to gear and master these jobs. I really don't know where your getting that.
It doesn't follow. The problem you pose doesn't really tie in at all to why you think people should be able to get everything. The quality of the weapon skills is not a reason to allow getting them all. If you think they're so bad, even 5/5, then that should make your decision about which ones to get even easier. Why waste your time getting them at all if you're so disappointed by them?Quote:
i peronally think. Since new WS are below most existing once even when 5/5 merited we should have had the option to upgrade each and every one of the new ones to 5/5. many of us have more than just 3 jobs they like to play and would have loved to actually use the WS for their main weapon.
You're not making much sense with your example, because you're playing more on each of the two jobs than the other person is on one. You're going to be buffed up and stronger on both of them before the other person gets done with one. So no, I'm not going to be stronger on the one job then you are on either of the two- We're still within the limits of the merit system here. Now if we both spent 4 hours playing, yes, I do deserve to be stronger on the one job than you are on either of the two. However, you still have an advantage of greater flexibility for any given situation. Leveling up a few classes vs. all of them should be a simple matter of being jack of many trades vs master of few. The flexibility of being able to choose any job compensates for the slight decrease in power from not having optimal merits for all of those jobs.Quote:
IF I play 8 hours a day on 2 jobs, and you play 2 hours a day on 1, you getting to be better at the 1 despite the fact that I play them more is ridiculous.
But some people WILL get everything, otherwise we wouldn't have any reason to be asking for it. And those few people who do get everything will have an even bigger advantage over those who don't, forcing people to do things they might not really want to do just to keep up, sucking some of the fun out of playing.Quote:
People aren't going to do everything anyways.
Supporters of removing the limits are treating the merit system as nothing more than post levelcap level-ups. That's part of its purpose, but not the whole purpose. Customization is part of the purpose too, and there is no customization if you get to obtain all merits. -
01-07-2012, 10:37 AMUnleashhell"Most people won't bother to merit everything."Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankReynolds
......
Isnt this my point? If people wont bother meriting all their combat skills anyway (your words) why do we need to have them all meritable? So back to having 3-4 jobs being able to merit combat skills fully is the way it should be then. They should raise the amount of limit points so you can merit 4-5 weapons instead of 3.
And to your second part of what you are saying, no I'm not to concerned about the other jobs past the 3 I can fully merit combat skills for. Reason why? because I hardly ever play them... I leveled those jobs for flexibility not to be the best most awesome uber spectacular person at every job. TBH I suck at mage jobs, why should I care if the combat skills are merited or not for mage jobs? I'm on PLD 95% of the time I play because its the job I love the most. The reverse might be for someone who is a career WHM. If they hate or know they suck at melee jobs why should they care about being able to merit the combat skills for those jobs?
I think being able to merit 5 offensive combat skills fully is perfect imo. -
01-07-2012, 11:51 AMAlhanelem
The number of weaponskills to cap should be upped to match the number of skills you can cap. And if they increase the number of skills again, I'd be fine with them increasing the WS number again. But they shouldn't just up and unlock it all.
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01-07-2012, 03:20 PMReturn1No one said they were hard. They're time consuming. Very time consuming.Quote:
What happened to Relics/Emps being easy to grind out?
Then you're doing it wrong. Solo in dynamis you should be killing as fast as possible on WS proc mobs, that means most of your WSes are unstacked. Why? Forgotten items sell for far more than currency, and sell fast. Forgotten items drop rate is independent of procs. You can solo farm the equivalent of 300-500 currency in forgotten items and sell them. Groups should do the same, though some groups prefer a BST or DNC to tag along for White Procs. BST is good because pet WSes count as JA and they only nerfed AoE Spells and WSes ability to proc multiple mobs.Quote:
Extenterator should almost never be used in Dynamis unless you're doing Arch NMs, and we have no idea where Nyzul and Limbus changes will leave the job. Current Nyzul changes look like complete and utter trash, so it may not be relevant at all. How does Dynamis flow? Sit and try to proc mob > Proc > Run behind it > SA Mercy > mob is dead. Rinse and repeat.
Limbus has seen a bit of a rebirth since people are doing it to get their AF+1 and ABCs ready for AF+2.
It doesn't matter if Nyzul 2.0 is trash,it's focus is slaughter, and people are going to do it because +5 pieces are fucking awesome. Hell Nyzul 1.0 has also seen a bit of a resurgence because people are farming Askar/Denali/Goliard that they didn't bother with before.
It's ignorant shit like this that proves you have no idea how game mechanics work. Off the top of my head a Hume SCH/Melee can easily break 150 STR outside abyssea. That's 382 base DMG before you count the weapon and fSTR. Say it only came out to 450 base DMG. That's 6750 DMG after fTP. With enough buffs and debuffs, SCH could reach 1.0 cRatio on just about anything in the game. SCH could also sub THF for upwards of 13000 damage on NMs. This is outside abyssea, and without DA/TA figured in.Quote:
A SCH with a 15fTP and 300% STR WS would still be shit because you're throwing a nice WS onto a shit job with no gear, abilities, or traits to back up the power of the WS. You'll never, ever cap cRatio on SCH and you sure as hell aren't going to be TP'ing or WS'ing in any reasonable setup. A 300% STR WSC is extremely gear-dependent, and if there's one thing SCH certainly isn't overflowing with it's STR/DD gear.
Your whole argument essentially boils down to jobs that aren't MNK or WAR suck. That's your only argument, which doesn't even fit. You're saying a WS is useless, but it just happens to be the strongest of its type. We should just delete Axes and BST because you were wrong about it? You're backpedaling into a retarded argument because you know you fucked up.Quote:
I'd like to see what you consider "high up there", but you'll probably just throw more spherical chickens at me like how Analhelm insists that PUP is "a really good DD if anyone gives it a chance".
I also hate to shatter your sad -wannabe- elitist worldviews circa 2006, but jobs like PUP, BST, and DRK have really caught up in the DD department.
PUP was laughably bad because it had a C in HTH, no MA despite specializing in HTH, couldn't use the strongest HTH WSes, horrible gear (fucking belicose mantle at 75?), and a weak pet with a long cooldown. Now PUP has B+ HTH, native MA, Stringing Pummel and Victory Smite, melee and pet enhancing gear that is actually good, a stronger pet with new/improved attachments, and DEA. It's a completely different job.
BST sucked because it had no native DD boosts, and it's jug pets were pathetically weak. Now BST has jug pets that are far more powerful, we're talking leagues ahead in DD, and now a new WS that helps BST's lack of native ATK boosts by having a big one built in. Not to mention boosts to pets through gear, new JT, and pet survival options.
DRK sucked because it was a WAR-5. Now with the LR buff and endark it's actually up there on its own without SE Zergs.
Shit has changed and as we go on, outside abyssea, the gaps between jobs are at an all time low and shrinking.