Are We Wasting Our Time?

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I took the time to count votes on both forums. If every single JP that voted had voted for Hippo NA votes for Scorp would have still beaten them. Counting votes for Slime Ruszor Scorp and Hippo from both forums it would have looked like this:

#1 Scorp
#2 Ruszor
#3 Slime
#4 Hippo

In other words the only thing that mattered at all was which won on the JP forums.

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numbers for each?
maybe hypo won with a bigger gap in jp
if scorp won with 20 more votes than hypo in NA/EU but hypo won with 21 more in jp that make hypo won by 1!

That really doesn't make much sense at all but either way it was 46-2 in the EN forums and 0-20 in the JP forums. 46-22 total.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

This is a joke right? I seriously suggest you translate whatever you "translate" into Japanese back into English before posting it to understand what kind of nonsense you are going to spout.

The development team doesn't speak much (if any) English. Everything from non Japanese speaking players has to be translated by a person before they can understand it. This is time consuming process and honestly a waste of resources.

Also the vote count is meaningless. The reasons behind a decision matter more than an actual vote count. What's wrong with a Hyppoglyph. I think it makes more sense than a Scorpion.

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In the case of a simple vote (ie. "scorpion") google translate would work just fine. Single JP words ussually translate very easily or you could just copy/paste from an english > jp dictionary. Also you can use google translate to find a vote by someone else and just copy/paste that. It's not really out of the question.

I understand that some people are frustrated, but I think there is a bit of overreacting here. I speak English and Japanese and I post in both forums. I see plenty of cases where the dev team blatantly goes against the player's request on the JP forums. If you aren't able to read both languages, I think it is really difficult for you to grasp the whole picture. (Google translate will only take you so far.) That and I think people are forgetting that the development has it's own concerns and vision as well. Also, SE is a Japanese company and they often operate quite different from what consumers in the US are used to. (Just look at the Sony debacle earlier this year).

I also took a look at the threads in question to see what all of the fuss was about. The NA thread was all over the place. Yes it had a lot more pages than the JP thread (a small part of that has to deal with the languages themselves), but you also had a lot more suggestions for different pets than the JP thread. So much so in fact that Camate had to come back in and ask you all to narrow down your choices. That didn't happen in the JP thread where Hippo was the clear winner from the outset.

There are also other considerations that people are forgetting. No where in the initial post from Camate did he guarantee that the pet with the most votes would be the one implemented. That is an assumption you are all making. The team probably looked at the results from the forums and picked the pet that they thought would most fit with the vision they have for the job heading to 99. They also had to think about how the jugs would actually be implemented and what abilities they would receive. And let's also not forget that there are probably more jugs coming in the future and Scorpion might be one of them.

And yes, there are JP players out there with really horrible opinions about NA players. I hope you realize that the reverse is true as well. Posting non-sense in the JP forums will only reinforce the stereotypes that *some* Japanese players have about us. And it won't help you with the dev team either.

I know that many of you are disappointed, but you aren't going to always going to get what you want. And I highly doubt that the dev team "didn't care about the NA votes at all." As I said, there were other considerations that went into their decision.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

I also took a look at the threads in question to see what all of the fuss was about. The NA thread was all over the place. Yes it had a lot more pages than the JP thread (a small part of that has to deal with the languages themselves), but you also had a lot more suggestions for different pets than the JP thread. So much so in fact that Camate had to come back in and ask you all to narrow down your choices. That didn't happen in the JP thread where Hippo was the clear winner from the outset.

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Excuses, excuses. We were told that the dev team was letting us vote on which jug pet we wanted to be added, and:

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I took the time to count votes on both forums. If every single JP that voted had voted for Hippo NA votes for Scorp would have still beaten them. Counting votes for Slime Ruszor Scorp and Hippo from both forums it would have looked like this:

#1 Scorp
#2 Ruszor
#3 Slime
#4 Hippo

In other words the only thing that mattered at all was which won on the JP forums.

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Giving people an illusion of choice, pretending that your vote matters and then ignoring the choice of majority (assuming we were all equal). Not nice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by Selzak

Excuses, excuses. We were told that the dev team was letting us vote on which jug pet we wanted to be added, and:

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More like you seeing only what you want to see. I already made several points, which you ignored completely. If you feel this way, you should quit. I think your reaction is totally off base, but I don't understand why you would continue to play this game if you feel this way.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

More like you seeing only what you want to see. I already made several points, which you ignored completely. If you feel this way, you should quit. I think your reaction is totally off base, but I don't understand why you would continue to play this game if you feel this way.

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You hardly made a point at all.

Our votes were more varied, so that means our winner doesn't count?

We were asked to vote on which jug pet we wanted implemented, but weren't guaranteed that anyone cared? (While the Japanese winner actually was implemented)

"You don't always get what you want."?

And finally, I see this as wrong and want an explanation for it- I should quit the game?


Your "points" are just you trying really hard not to see this for what it is.


Oh, and also:

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And yes, there are JP players out there with really horrible opinions about NA players. I hope you realize that the reverse is true as well. Posting non-sense in the JP forums will only reinforce the stereotypes that *some* Japanese players have about us. And it won't help you with the dev team either.

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While I'm not going to do it personally, what could it hurt? What are we getting from the dev team that we would stop getting if we upset them by disrupting their honorable Japanese purity? At the very most, they would tell the two community reps who post translations for us to stop.

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

More like you seeing only what you want to see. I already made several points, which you ignored completely. If you feel this way, you should quit. I think your reaction is totally off base, but I don't understand why you would continue to play this game if you feel this way.

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Yeah asking players to vote then after the votes are tallied choosing the option that received the 4th most votes makes sense to you?

You say it was because of the language barrier? When the votes were tallied, and given to the development team by the reps they somehow misunderstood that? Or they went with the Japanese favorite because the Japanese forum users were almost all behind hippo. So because that was popular on the "preferred" forum they went with it regardless of
the fact that hippo placed 4th in TOTAL votes.

There are multiple posts in that thread where people came and made an account strictly to voice their opinion on a topic they felt strongly about as evidenced by their post count of 1. Is this really the message we want to send to those players who came here, and joined the community solely for that purpose. To paying customers who for the 1st time in years (some of us upwards of 9) felt they were actually contributing to the development of a game they love.

You know, they could have avoided this problem easily and simply by polling the japanese and everyone else seperately, and giving us two new pets, the one that won in each group. :p

Considering the only staff reading this are likely on our side already and unable to really do much of anything, I think the only reasonably effective course of action at this point would be to have a fluent Japanese speaker translate and summarize these grievances and then post them on the JP General Discussion board and await a reply there.

It's far more effective to go to the source than put Camate in a position where he would have to translate grievances as a staff member and then wait for a translated reply, if there even is a reply given to him. My second language is French, so I'm hardly any help here personally. I know I've seen a fair number of JP second language speakers posting here though.

As for white-knighting the JP boards, that's really just ridiculous. You think the NA boards are significantly more vile than any other community forum? We're ignored because we "Whine a lot"? This is the internet. It is vile. Everybody whines, regardless of language or culture.

If the Devs really only care about JP feedback, honestly that's fine. I don't particularly care. I simply think it's horribly disingenuous to request our feedback and then promptly ignore it.

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Originally Posted by hiko

numbers for each?
maybe hypo won with a bigger gap in jp
if scorp won with 20 more votes than hypo in NA/EU but hypo won with 21 more in jp that make hypo won by 1!

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They counted them combined across the forums, Scorpion won.

Doesn't matter what way SE tries to swing this they proved in one sweet that they could care less about English players.

Square-Enix = Japanesse Company Final Fantasy (Series) = Japanesse Series that NAs enjoy playing too.

This is the first time I felt obligated to create an account and post on these forums, although I read them quite regularly. I agree with the OP on this being an issue that should see some sort of response.

To those replying with answers such as "well then quit the game," is there really any need for that? I have played this game since it released in NA for PC. I have hundreds and thousands of memories and I plan to continue making those memories in the game for some time to come. However, feeling wronged when being asked to add your input to a vote tally should be a legitimate concern, and not one which is only met with the answer of "quitting the game."

Many others are confusing the reason for concern here. I don't think many are bitter over the fact that hippo was chosen over scorp in terms of the way it'll affect gameplay. We are bitter because hippo was not anywhere near being the top choice in a vote tally that spanned two different language boards. There is no legitimate excuse for hippo being selected then. It shouldn't matter that the devs favored hippo if that is true - why even take a tally then? It shouldn't matter that "NA votes were all over the place while JP seriously wanted hippo." Who cares? And then to say, "well maybe the point of the tally wasn't that the highest one would win, but just to pick one randomly!"

I don't care if scorp will be added in the future, nor that hippo was selected, per se. I do care, however, in the circumstances in which it was decided. It's clear favoritism that needs to be addressed.

Lastly, to those saying we are showing concern over this issue that has gone on for the past 10 years, I'd ask you this: how recently were we actually given the opportunity to voice our concerns via an official forum? How many years of those 10 years did we even have a way of providing feedback to the devs?

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Originally Posted by Sickel

This is the first time I felt obligated to create an account and post on these forums, although I read them quite regularly. I agree with the OP on this being an issue that should see some sort of response.

To those replying with answers such as "well then quit the game," is there really any need for that? I have played this game since it released in NA for PC. I have hundreds and thousands of memories and I plan to continue making those memories in the game for some time to come. However, feeling wronged when being asked to add your input to a vote tally should be a legitimate concern, and not one which is only met with the answer of "quitting the game."

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NA players representing, is what you're seeing there. "Too cool to care", sums up the attitude just about right.
Or, simply rotten attitudes from rotten people. God knows what will happen if these sad individuals don't have the ability to bash people behind a computer screen!

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Originally Posted by Sickel

I don't care if scorp will be added in the future, nor that hippo was selected, per se. I do care, however, in the circumstances in which it was decided. It's clear favoritism that needs to be addressed.

Lastly, to those saying we are showing concern over this issue that has gone on for the past 10 years, I'd ask you this: how recently were we actually given the opportunity to voice our concerns via an official forum? How many years of those 10 years did we even have a way of providing feedback to the devs?

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I wouldn't give too much credit to the 'official forums' just yet. Nowadays, prior to ten years ago, it is much, much more common and .almost. expected for a system of communication to be put in place for player feedback and 'the administration'. The administration being SE, if you missed that.

They have conformed to upgrade a level of .service.
That is what a game is nowadays, an entertainment service, like a television network. Don't like the channel? Change the channel, change the cartridge, it's all the same.

I'd have to say ten years ago, yeah they did not give a f. You walk your ass back from Valkurm to Bastok to change your job to raise your party that took an hour to just form, to disband by the time you get back. The problem is not that they didn't care, they just didn't listen - whether intentionally or otherwise.

But now they .finally. put in 'official' forums, where they can hear the players - but they don't have to listen, much less take orders from - they have projects, deadlines...things set in stone that they cannot change.

For all we know, this whole pet thing - it could of just been a mishap when dealing with two player communities, NA and JP. The Hippo could of already been set in stone, as in - already developed, wrapped and package for implementation. If I was a higher-up from the admin side, I wouldn't put a full stop on that present just to begin wrapping another one - but the player input would definitely help me know how and what to package for the next, ya dig?

In the end, do any of us .really. know what happened?
Maybe even a better question, I wonder how many posts are in the JP forums are related to "You should just quit noob".

Maybe NA comes last because they just suck more, as people.

Take Google translate and go read the JP forums. They whine, complain, and talk shit just like us. They rarely even have a difference of opinion from English forums. Don't be so arrogant. Japanese people can and do whine, complain, talk shit and act like douche bags just as well as everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafein

Yeah asking players to vote then after the votes are tallied choosing the option that received the 4th most votes makes sense to you?

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I said that no where did they communicate to you that their decision would be based entirely on the results of the poll. As I've already said, there are probably other considerations that went into their decision and that the results on the JP forum were a lot more one-sided.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafein

You say it was because of the language barrier?

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No, I never said that.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafein

There are multiple posts in that thread where people came and made an account strictly to voice their opinion on a topic they felt strongly about as evidenced by their post count of 1. Is this really the message we want to send to those players who came here, and joined the community solely for that purpose. To paying customers who for the 1st time in years (some of us upwards of 9) felt they were actually contributing to the development of a game they love.

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They are contributing to the development of the game. They asked you for your input and said they would take it into consideration when making their decision. You just didn't get the outcome you wanted this time. I just see people throwing up their hands and complaining, instead of thinking critically about this. I have no problem with people caring about a game that they love, but when you are emotional to the point of not being reasonable, then I just can't sympathize.

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Originally Posted by Selzak

You hardly made a point at all.

Our votes were more varied, so that means our winner doesn't count?

We were asked to vote on which jug pet we wanted implemented, but weren't guaranteed that anyone cared? (While the Japanese winner actually was implemented)

"You don't always get what you want."?

And finally, I see this as wrong and want an explanation for it- I should quit the game?

Your "points" are just you trying really hard not to see this for what it is.

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Ugh.

I say that you should quit not because I disagree with voicing your concerns about a game that you pay money for, but because I think you are being silly and unreasonable.

I don't understand people who cry "favoritism" every time a maintenance doesn't happen during JP peak times, despite the fact that the JP players are clearly the majority. I don't understand people who think that being asked for your opinion means that you will get exactly what you ask for and ignore the fact that the JP forums are full of complaints about the development team not listening to them either. I don't understand people who seem to forget that there are a myriad of reasons behind any decision, but instead immediately go to "it's because we're not JP!" And I don't understand people who think that their opinions don't matter because they aren't Japanese, but continue to complain about Japanese players in a Japanese game run by a Japanese development team on the forums established by a Japanese company.

I doubt you will find many people on these forums (NA, EU and JP) who are happy 100% happy with the way the development team is handling things. I know I've let my voice be heard many times. I find this thread irrational given the amount of times we've seen the dev team both listen and not listen to suggestions on these forums.

I have just one thing to said :

JP onry !

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Originally Posted by Sasaraixx

I doubt you will find many people on these forums (NA, EU and JP) who are happy 100% happy with the way the development team is handling things. I know I've let my voice be heard many times. I find this thread irrational given the amount of times we've seen the dev team both listen and not listen to suggestions on these forums.

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You don't seem to get it. Look at the thread title. It's a simple question and as accurate as it can be. Why does it matter if they just "considered it" and discarded it, or didn't consider it and discarded it? If neither one side winning nor losing would have made a difference, it was just a waste of our time. And don't even dare to say that our results may just not have been decisive enough, because if a 2-to-1 vote isn't significant, then nothing on here ever will be, and these polls are completely useless, and thus again a waste of our time.

That being said, they have been dishonest with us a lot. They lied straight to our faces, time and again. They did act preferential on the Japanese side a lot, regardless of whether or not this BST example qualifies. My example from the Lv99 vs. Lv100 thread still stands. At one point, they announce the results, and afterwards, after we've complained that our votes clearly indicated otherwise, they tell us why our votes were discarded ("because you looked at the abilities you'd gain from Lv50 sub instead of actually debating over Lv100"). That means they did recognize that our votes didn't count, and came upw ith a bullshit excuse for it. If you wanna keep on defending that, go right ahead and feel proud of yourself. Fact is, they're dishonest and they're wasting our time. Hence, this thread is perfectly justified.

I don't agree with that 'dishonest with us a lot' bit, but I do agree that in this case, it was handled wrong. Why bother asking us if they're not going to factor it in?

Just another point I'd like to make: My first choice was the Opo-opo, and I think I'd actually prefer the Hippogryph to the Scropion. This is not at all the issue, and if you think that we're just whining because we want our Scorpion then you are missing the point to a ridiculous extent.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

It's not their way of designing games which we question, but their lie about giving us a vote in the matter. If they simply shut us out and did their own thing, or reserved forums for bug reports alone, no one would be bitching here. But this is very much bitch-worthy.

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I have two words that need to be said. Grow Up.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

I have two words that need to be said. Grow Up.

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If you really want to simplify this issue down to 2 words it seems to me that paying customers are being told.

Bend over.

I imagine we'll get some response along the lines that the decision was made independently by the development team and that no favoritism is involved (they just happened to pick the fourth-favorite choice overall and Japanese favorite, coincidence!) and maybe even go as far as adding the Scorpion to appease us.

I'll say it now, I don't care about the Scorpion. I want an explanation or an apology, and some acknowledgement of the real issue. Best-case scenario for me is that they admit they haven't been paying enough (any) attention to this board and they start. That doesn't mean they should give PLDs their HOLIEST WARRIOR Invincible-ga ability that some 16-year old asked for, but that they should pay equal attention to their players regardless of what language they speak. If there's a 90 page thread on the Job Manifesto in the English forum and a 20 page thread on the Job Manifesto in the Japanese forum, I don't want to see a response in our thread that says "Answers to your feedback, keep it coming!" that exclusively responds to feedback from the Japanese thread.

That's the main sentiment in the OP, and I believe it's the sentiment of most people here- the situation with this BST thing just happens to be blatant enough to warrant an actual response. Before this, one could make the argument that SE was just inadequate and lacked the ability to properly communicate with with its English-speaking players or read what they were saying. Now, it's apparent that the problem goes at least a little bit deeper.



As has been stated before, I think we should be careful not to misplace the blame on this problem. We really only have contact with two community reps, and it seems like all they're here to do is provide translations for us. I have a very strong feeling that we tend to get pushed outside of the circle via them, not because of them. Especially with Camate, it seems like he did all he could early on and finally just gave up- and I hope no one makes the mistake of blaming him for sharing the poll with us in the first place if our votes weren't going to make a difference. I believe that, like us, Camate genuinely thought out votes would matter, and was probably as dismayed as we are now when he shared our results with a development team that didn't care.

"Hopefully" this is just a very big structural problem, but this whole debacle calls that into question and makes us wonder what kind of attitudes the people we're giving our money to and trying to communicate with actually have towards us. This is what we want an answer to, and (at least on my part) it's coming from a very genuine place.

For the longest time, SE seemed to have a policy of ignoring or dismissing pretty much anything the players had to say. They were aloof, stubborn, and arrogant. Then, suddenly, they started listening. They started reacting. The very things people were asking for started to be implemented. Adjustments and tweaks were made based on player feedback. What a marked improvement that was. I guess all good things must come to an end though.

Now... in this case they're outright lying to us? That's more than just a snapback to the old ways. This is even worse than when they apparently thought the player base had nothing constructive to offer. It's a step beyond dismissive. Just how stupid and worthless do they think we are?

You can fix this though, SE. I'd be shocked if you did, but you can. And this isn't directed specifically at you, Camate. It's SE as a whole.

Apologize first and foremost. Eat your piece of humble pie. You're big boys and girls. You're professionals. You can take the criticism and admit you were wrong. I don't care whether it was a mistake, a miscommunication, or a purposeful act. You screwed up and you should be sorry. If not, as some players like to suggest to one another, you should quit. That may be harsh, but unlike some people in this thread, I don't let companies as large as SE get off with very many excuses. SE has done too many great things in the past to make me expect anything less than the best of you at all times. You all set the standard. Live up to it.

Secondly, the the scorpion should now be implemented along with the other "winners". I seriously doubt that this is some terrible hardship for you, but even if it is it needs to be done. To be honest, I don't see why you didn't just add it in the first place. Interest has been shown for scorpion and other type pets for a very long time. You at SE aren't stupid or blind and neither are we the players. Now, start acting like it.

Oh I'm almost certain there will be no apology at all from SE - if they even choose to acknowledge this, it'll most likely be a response saying how "Well while the votes may have been higher, we thought that the *rationale* behind the hippogriph was just better so we decided to implement that based on the current status of available pets" Or something.

This seems to be commonplace with big japanese gaming companies though. Capcom's excuse for why Megaman wasn't in MvC3 was that he "didn't get enough requests to make the cut into the game" - and yet obscure characters like Firebrand and Rocket Raccoon were...

Hmm...

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Originally Posted by Shibayama

Oh I'm almost certain there will be no apology at all from SE - if they even choose to acknowledge this, it'll most likely be a response saying how "Well while the votes may have been higher, we thought that the *rationale* behind the hippogriph was just better so we decided to implement that based on the current status of available pets" Or something.

This seems to be commonplace with big japanese gaming companies though. Capcom's excuse for why Megaman wasn't in MvC3 was that he "didn't get enough requests to make the cut into the game" - and yet obscure characters like Firebrand and Rocket Raccoon were...

Hmm...

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I guess it's just a trait they picked up from American companies, but the subtlety of our corporate bullshit was lost in translation.

I couldn't even believe that hippo won, given the fact no one I saw really voted for it.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

Also the vote count is meaningless. The reasons behind a decision matter more than an actual vote count. What's wrong with a Hyppoglyph. I think it makes more sense than a Scorpion.

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Do you even play bst? How does it "make more sense" - and which vermin jug do you usually use? Cause there are so many awesome vermin jugs amirite?

Dude I'm still not understanding why you made this thread.
SE has the RIGHT to be favor Japanese people. They can favor one legged prostitutes if they wanted.
Is this problem enough of a concern for you to boycott the game?
If it's not, then you should maybe just be quiet and keep playing. It's not like the Japanese pay less, have instant warps to anywhere they want, get all the drops they need, and never die.
You need to reevaluate what's important to you in the game, and what's not. And if you feel so strongly as to write for 8 pages, countering everyone's well written arguments with jack-assery, than maybe it IS time to quit, because there seems to be other issues you have with the game as well.

On a side note, if Hippo turns out to be a DD version of ladybug, its gonna be the best pet ever created

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Originally Posted by Olor

Do you even play bst? How does it "make more sense" - and which vermin jug do you usually use? Cause there are so many awesome vermin jugs amirite?

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Actually no I don't. I do beleive the Scorpion model is too large for a Jug... where as the Hippoglyph is a better sized. To elaberate too big = bad for game play. I think that's what the decision boiled down too. Better game play mechanics. Not favoritism.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

Actually no I don't. I do beleive the Scorpion model is too large for a Jug... where as the Hippoglyph is a better sized. To elaberate too big = bad for game play. I think that's what the decision boiled down too. Better game play mechanics. Not favoritism.

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But the small Adamantoise model isn't too big? >.> its bigger than most scorpion models. Your logic is flawed.

I'm annoyed and irked by this (the having a vote and ignoring it) but honestly not surprised.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

Actually no I don't. I do beleive the Scorpion model is too large for a Jug... where as the Hippoglyph is a better sized. To elaberate too big = bad for game play. I think that's what the decision boiled down too. Better game play mechanics. Not favoritism.

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Have you even seen ChopsueyChucky?
I'll go with the benefit of the doubt though and assume you meant "too big = bad for NEW gameplay"

just checked german forum: the majority of german speaking players favor Hippogryph. I will count it later today, but need to go to university now.

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Originally Posted by Shadowsong

Dude I'm still not understanding why you made this thread.
SE has the RIGHT to be favor Japanese people. They can favor one legged prostitutes if they wanted.

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Yeah, they have the right to do ignore, favor, and lie to whoever they want. We have the right to call them out on it too. When you exercise your rights and privileges, or do anything really, you have to accept the possible consequences of doing so.

Tanaka is back in charge, or at least no longer in the shame corner. The guy who actually wanted the English Forums listened to has been moved to FFXIV. Basically the current boss has no desire to even read what we write, much less to actually listen.

A clue for the clueless, as much as it can be simplified: this topic has nothing to do with hippo over scorp, which one is better, and whether getting hippo has made us happy in our pants or not. That debate can be found for many more pages over in the actual poll where our opinions were, you know, taken into account. This topic is about recognizing whether our opinions, in topics such as that, are really worth even being considered in a poll, since, well, the results don't really seem to show them to be. And the real shocker is that these kinds of concerns aren't just limited to this specific time and place. You don't have to be a butt-hurt BST to feel a bit concerned, or at least intrigued by how the selection of hippo came to be, since this kind of behavior has happened in the past, and without some kind of feedback could easily happen in the future.

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Originally Posted by Shadowsong

Dude I'm still not understanding why you made this thread.
SE has the RIGHT to be favor Japanese people. They can favor one legged prostitutes if they wanted.
Is this problem enough of a concern for you to boycott the game?

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It may be enough of a problem for me to quit, which is why I'm trying to better understand it. That's a curious use of the word boycott, you don't seem to be able to comprehend things outside of the context of the U.S. government or something. This has nothing to do with the law. Do you know that SE also has the right to ban you for no reason at all? It's in the ToS. I'm sure if they randomly banned you for absolutely no reason at all you wouldn't complain though- you can't sue them, so it's ok and shouldn't be discussed!

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If it's not, then you should maybe just be quiet and keep playing.

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You are good at arguing. Why should I do that?

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And if you feel so strongly as to write for 8 pages, countering everyone's well written arguments with jack-assery, than maybe it IS time to quit, because there seems to be other issues you have with the game as well.

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I've counted three people, including you, who have disagreed with what this thread set out to recognize. Only one of them (definitely not you) attempted to make logical arguments. I feel strongly enough about anything to call people out on bad arguments, and it's just because I appreciate honest debates and get irritated when people make bad arguments (on whatever side). This is why I hate (but closely follow) politics and am rather susceptible to trolling if it's clever enough.

I was under the impression that the whole point in offering hippo was due to there being no bird-family jugs... then they come out with Apkallu and go with the minority vote of hippo anyway...

Maybe I missed something in the reasoning though, my BST was Maat only.