Cure V

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/232801<- Cure potency/enmity down set.

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You might want to fix that it says you're wearing two Heka's Kalasiris at the same time.

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Originally Posted by MDenham

As long as it's not Sleep, Silence, Petrify, or Amnesia, WHM already has this.

It's called Sacrifice.

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That only works with the Misery JA up and requires the WHM be standing NEXT to the tanks, aka within monster aoe range.

Plus we're trying to get rid of status ailments, putting them on yourself is a very BAD idea.

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Comment deleted by Moderator.

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Don't respond to her. Click her name then click "add to ignore list". *poof* problem solved. [Comment deleted by Moderator]

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Originally Posted by saevel

That only works with the Misery JA up and requires the WHM be standing NEXT to the tanks, aka within monster aoe range.

Plus we're trying to get rid of status ailments, putting them on yourself is a very BAD idea.

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Actually, you are thinking of Esuna, Sacrifice can be used at range, and requires that Solace be up for it to absorb multiple things, or things Erase can remove.

Esuna requires Misery to be up when using it if you want to remove anything nasty too, but even then it only removes a maximum of 2 things. It is probably the only good use for Misery, since Cura requires you to take damage while it is up, and Auspice's accuracy boost get massively nerfed.

And while this is the Red Mage subforum, I wonder why Scholar hasn't gotten Sacrifice (under Add.White) yet, since it gets many of the other White Mage enfeeble removal, and is single target (like the rest of Scholar's spells). Unless SE plans on going to Samurai route and giving the Afflatus JA out but nerfed when your main isn't White Mage, it wouldn't really allow Scholar to outdo White Mage that much either (and even if they did, the could nerf it from seven to two ailments while under Solace, like they'd nerf the cureskin).

Anyways, putting debuffs on yourself isn't a bad idea if you have Esuna access (and the debuff isn't Paralyze), or if the debuffs are something along the lines of Attack Down or Accuracy Down, or STR down. But Sacrifice is used so little in the field that even very competent White Mages will forget that they have it.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Anyways, putting debuffs on yourself isn't a bad idea if you have Esuna access (and the debuff isn't Paralyze), or if the debuffs are something along the lines of Attack Down or Accuracy Down, or STR down. But Sacrifice is used so little in the field that even very competent White Mages will forget that they have it.

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Yeah, the main reason I mentioned it was because I was on a Durinn run yesterday that involved four or five Dvalinn fights.

One cast of Sacrifice beats the hell out of having to spam Erase.

I'm counting roughly -68% Cast Time on cures from Sch, -80% for Whm (49% Cure Potency and -38 enmity) and ~-76% (LA 50% Cure potency -50 Enmity) for Rdm, can anyone point out anything I've missed?

On Topic: While it's pretty clear SE wants a main healing job it's pretty ridiculous when no one else is even in the league behind the main healer. For serious events it isn't a case of 'Whm not on, get someone else who can help cure' it's 'Whm not on, someone switch to Whm' (or be like someone else here, and be gimp at curing/damage/benefiting your group outside of procs/2 hour).

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Originally Posted by MDenham

Yeah, the main reason I mentioned it was because I was on a Durinn run yesterday that involved four or five Dvalinn fights.

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That's actually pretty funny, because the last time that I can specifically remember casting Sacrifice aside from messing around or casting random spells on someone in my party to toy around was on those mobs. It wasn't anytime recent either.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Don't respond to her. Click her name then click "add to ignore list". *poof* problem solved.

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Problem should considering it even got edited because obviously they can't handle facts being told about them, when in doubt, whine to a mod,

actually, i think i know who it was, this one has done it before. gotta love when people get butthurt.

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I wonder why Scholar hasn't gotten Sacrifice (under Add.White) yet, since it gets many of the other White Mage enfeeble removal, and is single target (like the rest of Scholar's spells).

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Because sacrifice is a exclusive WHM spell, common sense would tell you they won't give exclusive spells to other jobs that easily, especially something as good as sacrafice.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I'm counting roughly -68% Cast Time on cures from Sch, -80% for Whm (49% Cure Potency and -38 enmity) and ~-76% (LA 50% Cure potency -50 Enmity) for Rdm, can anyone point out anything I've missed?

On Topic: While it's pretty clear SE wants a main healing job it's pretty ridiculous when no one else is even in the league behind the main healer. For serious events it isn't a case of 'Whm not on, get someone else who can help cure' it's 'Whm not on, someone switch to Whm' (or be like someone else here, and be gimp at curing/damage/benefiting your group outside of procs/2 hour).

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I got RDM 79% without /SCH

Oh wow, I forgot staff when I'm making one lol, so all 3 jobs near cap on -cast time then.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

Problem should considering it even got edited because obviously they can't handle facts being told about them, when in doubt, whine to a mod,

actually, i think i know who it was, this one has done it before. gotta love when people get butthurt.




Because sacrifice is a exclusive WHM spell, common sense would tell you they won't give exclusive spells to other jobs that easily, especially something as good as sacrafice.

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Is something up with the mods? They've been rather active and a bit draconian lately. Or are people just hitting report like crazy now?

It just needs to look valid enough for them to edit from what I can tell, they seem to just look at the report and look for key words then dole out adjustments.

i.e post calls someone a retard/idiot, someone reports it for personal attack/unnecessary insulting language, post gets moderated.

Hmm ok. Guess we gotta tip toe around words then. Don't want to piss the mods off as their just doing their jobs, but also don't want to feel like I gotta play with kiddy gloves.

Oh well still gotta love the Ignore feature. It's like instant troll-be-gone.

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Originally Posted by Swords

People forget part of the reason we became such prominent healers wasn't because we could cast cure IV over and over again with minimal downtime, but we also had a secondary spell called Cure III to rotate with which had a solid impact on hp in it's day and age. However with HP pools growing, Cure III is FAR from sufficient enough to do much if any good for the group. That leaves us with Cure IV, being THE ONLY decent healing spell we have access too at these later levels, but recast timers and cooldown leaves us even more lacking besides just raw cure power. However the raw power of Cure V is a little much, and chances are we would revisit the pink bird era again (Essentially Cure V/IV now would be our Cure IV/III from back then) which most of us want to try and avoid.

Instead of Cure V I think something along the lines of new type of healing spell would work in our favor. Similar to how WHM's got Cura as a secondary Curga II/III, I don't see why RDM couldn't get something like "Heal" standing in as another Cure IV equivilant so RDM at least has something else to heal with when one is cooling down and it would effectively double our curing capacity.

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I don't know why everybody keep b@#$%ing about Cure V being to powerful for a RDM or even SCH, that is complete bull. I solo alot as a RDM/DNC because the Cure III/IV combo together only cures about 550ish hp at best but to be fair my healing skill isn't capped. Cure IV + Curing Waltz III cures about 750HP on self per attack round. WHM is like an A in healing while RDM is only like C or so and dont have any job ability like Addendum White like SCH to boost it any. So even with gear enhancements to cure potency and boosts to MND stat there is relatively low chance to heal more hp per cast than a WHM no matter how much you try to make a point that we will.

In addition the mobs past level 85 are hitting harder and faster requiring more healing power to stay alive especially nm. The combination of Cure V and Cure 4 will just barely put us at the 1000hp point at best short of gear and other bonus mods. With all the Cure potency stuff WHM gets what the F are you whm crying about? I swear i saw a screenshot some where of a whm curing for over 1500hp(cant remember where) so how is that going to make us a better healer? In any case Cure IV + Curing waltz III = 700~750 of my ~1400 hp where Cure V + Cure IV or Cure V+ CWIII would be about 1000/1400 and a WHM can basically cure to full health with one Cure V + Divine Seal, so am i missing something or are you WHM just idiots?

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

On Topic: While it's pretty clear SE wants a main healing job it's pretty ridiculous when no one else is even in the league behind the main healer. For serious events it isn't a case of 'Whm not on, get someone else who can help cure' it's 'Whm not on, someone switch to Whm' (or be like someone else here, and be gimp at curing/damage/benefiting your group outside of procs/2 hour).

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I don't know, give BLU a /WHM or /RDM (excluded /SCH because Cure IV is 55) it can become a pretty competitive healer coupled with it's own BLU based healing/-na spells.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

Because sacrifice is a exclusive WHM spell, common sense would tell you they won't give exclusive spells to other jobs that easily, especially something as good as sacrafice.

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Ironic you say that, SE seemed more than happy to whore out anything the least bit exclusive RDM had to the other jobs over the years, most everything significant that was kept was fleshed out to other jobs when the level cap rose.

Sorry if I sound a bit jaded, I haven't had my caffeine this morning.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I find it funny, but I'm of the same opinion of Pink Mages as some people are against Melee. But mine is a bit more grounded in fact.

RDM does not need to be WHM -1, as it will simply be shoved into the healer role instead of any other role at all, and we saw the consequences to WHM when that was done in the ToAU era. The player base WILL go with the absolute minimum healing required to any event if it's not forced on them to take more than one individual. (which usually means inviting a Hybrid.) I'd rather our healing load take the hit and our Enfeebeling/Enhancing get the buffs they need.

But I do understand there's a base of players that like playing Pink Mage and I am in support for global improvements for RDM across the board.

So, I'm going to request an alternative to Cure V that does not give RDM the type of spike curing that rivals WHM's spike healing. Giving RDM more capabilities in healing, but keeping the emphasis instead on enfeebles and enhancement, rather than give them the capabilities to flat out replace WHM in any instance that's not HNMs.

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If we were say willing to give WHM Refresh I natively in exchange for Cure V would that solve this problem?

Competitive... where exactly? None of their native buffs can be fulltimed on a party so that leaves /whm buffs, Their Fast Cast is still gimped and they can't access Totm staves so they're probably the slowest healer in the lot. Their main benefit is having a Cure 4 variant and a 4.5 variant along with better than /whm worse than whm main AoE heals.

And if that's the game's current next best healer then yes that's some pretty bad straits.

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Originally Posted by Ciecle

oh for fks sakes.

2009: RDM>> WE DO NOT WANT TO BE MAIN HEALERS! PLEASE FIX RDM SO WE DONT HAVE TO!
2010: SE>> Ok fine. We'll increase the level cap and give everyone more HP so you don't have to main heal anymore.
2011: RDM>> WE WANT TO BE MAIN HEALERS AGAIN! WTF SE! GIVE US CURE V! WE ALSO WANT TO MELEE WHILE CURING SO GIVE US THAT TOO!
2012: SE>> We give up... There is no pleasing you crybabies.

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ok point well made, LMFAO. I guess the only way to reconcile the differences is that we dont want to main heal but like to have the OPTION of main healing, LOL.

Even at 75 cap whm could cap the then cast time cap, and after getting solace + /Sch whm was still the best healer in the game, it just wasn't seen as a large margin as it is now (Did I mention they still had the best barspells/Shell in the game and still do? And it's just gotten even better for them with the cap raises). This isn't 2006 anymore, brute force main healing isn't effective on harder fights, and anyone who thinks a mage job with native skill and spells for said skill should be stuck with the same tier spell for 47 levels... I just don't know what to tell you.

Doesnt RDM has almost has many "unique" procs as sch? Sch has Helix (8 procs) and RDM has Merit spells ( Bilnd II, Bio III, Dia III, Para II, Slow II)

Personally, I'm thinking of dropping SCH from the ally for new voidwatch (zilart specifically) to give its spot to another DD.

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Originally Posted by CapriciousOne

In addition the mobs past level 85 are hitting harder and faster requiring more healing power to stay alive especially nm. The combination of Cure V and Cure 4 will just barely put us at the 1000hp point at best short of gear and other bonus mods. With all the Cure potency stuff WHM gets what the F are you whm crying about? I swear i saw a screenshot some where of a whm curing for over 1500hp(cant remember where) so how is that going to make us a better healer? In any case Cure IV + Curing waltz III = 700~750 of my ~1400 hp where Cure V + Cure IV or Cure V+ CWIII would be about 1000/1400 and a WHM can basically cure to full health with one Cure V + Divine Seal, so am i missing something or are you WHM just idiots?

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That's pretty much exactly what SE fears, and yes I know there are limitations to these spells and there are all the bonuses SE gave WHM that should prevent the mainstream from going back to the old ToAU experience, however being able to cure for 1/3-1/2 a players HP in a single volley was enough for players back at 75, and if players can get away with the least amount of support they will take the one with the most tools to get by with minimal downtime and that's still RDM. (Not to mention RDM/WHM could DS + Cure V as well for about as good)

Anyways that aside, HP pools are only a few hundred hp bigger than they were at 75 (Excluding Abyssea since 98% of the game does not have absurd hp bonuses), and there isn't much content aside from Voidwatch and a few Abyssea mobs that would pose a threat to one's hp significant enough our Cures can't really handle (glaring exceptions aside). But I doubt SE is ever going to come through with Cure V until they bring the game up to a standard where most endgame content can pose a threat and Zerg tactics can't be abused.

That's just personal opinion though.

The whole argument that White mage has more healing skill is a joke, because currently healing skill matters very little in the cure formula. With the advent of the cure staff with potency +23%, which any serious healer should have, plus all the new cure potency gear that came out in the past year, the cure potency argument is invalid as well. Cure potency caps at 50%, so the fact that white mage could get 60% or whatever and RDM only 50% is fairly pointless as well.

The reason white mages and SE apparently think Cure V may imbalance the healing jobs, is white mage was marginalized to a degree at 75. I been playing since 2005 and I remember well things like the airship fight and our white mage being told they weren't allowed to come because only red mage could heal that fight. (The white mage wasn't me, I only had black mage at that time. ) That advanced to my limbus shell saying white mages were never allowed in limbus except for bosses, on to Salvage where it was red mage only as well. Of course experience was the most egregious example of white mage being excluded.

SE attempted to rectify this with the solace and misery adjustments, but even at 75 white mage was a second class healer in some people's opinion. So just dumping Cure V on red mage and scholar, who bring mp longetivity and high tier nukes compared to a white mage, may make the balance skew away from the job whose only purpose is to heal. Will the cureskin update, the advanced bar spells, the curagas, etc make it so white mage is still the preferred healer if scholar and red mage get Cure V. I am not sure, maybe, but right now its a chance a lot of white mages, and apparently SE for now don't' want to take.

As I've said before, SE needs to make WHM better before giving RDM / SCH Cure V. It's not about the "next tier" its that the difference from IV to V is immense, it's so big a jump that it has everyone demanding it. And while I can see SCH getting it under Apendum White (They get same tier nukes as BLM under AB), I just can't see SE giving RDM Cure V in it's current form.

I can see SE giving RDM alternative curing methods, Regen's come to mind only cause our gear and abilities focus on Enhancing and Enfeebling Magic vs Healing / Elemental Magic. I would much rather a Spell that restores the same HP potential as a Cure V, possibly more with gear factored, but over a 30s period of time. Make it cheap and fast casting, we could cast it on someone then throw out a Cure IV to ensure no premature death. Having experienced the 50+ hp/tick on Embrava, it's ridiculously nice.

White Mage is arguably the most OP job in the game and you want to make it better as a prerequisite to throwing a bone to other jobs? I don't even know how to respond to that.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Personally, I'm thinking of dropping SCH from the ally for new voidwatch (zilart specifically) to give its spot to another DD.

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If you have four Black Mages, a Scholar essentially makes your party have five (actually, a bit more, but I'm rounding down), in addition to having whatever powers the Scholar has, due to weather spells. With the next cap adjustment, this will be less significant, since Black Mages can sub Scholar for all but three weather spells once we hit 99 cap, (while having faster recast timers for Stun over subbing Red Mage, at the cost of some healing ability).

More to everyone, if someone is willing to get rid of a Scholar in an alliance setting for another melee job despite its mixed ability to heal, nuke, and massively buff your casters, what will happen to a job that only heals when other jobs can come extremely close to it or even match it, while being able to do other things? And don't tell me that magic defense will save the day, because at full merits, Shell and Shellra have at best a 3% gap (Phalanx could cover that easily), and the majority of a Barspell can be made up between either an Accessioned Barspell or subbing White Mage for Barspellra.

Siiri, your entire post is pretty coherant and logical, and seems to generally capture the sense of what White Mages are worried about.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

The whole argument that White mage has more healing skill is a joke, because currently healing skill matters very little in the cure formula. With the advent of the cure staff with potency +23%, which any serious healer should have, plus all the new cure potency gear that came out in the past year, the cure potency argument is invalid as well. Cure potency caps at 50%, so the fact that white mage could get 60% or whatever and RDM only 50% is fairly pointless as well.

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Cureskin is a joke when Scholars have light weather - it comes uncomfortably close, and if Scholars ever get double weather without single weather being sub usable, the gap would be so big that a Scholar with Cure V would be able to laugh in the face of White Mages as they got into parties.

But even if Red Mage were given the same amount, 25-35% cureskin isn't going to make people choose White Mage over Red Mage, like Siiri points out.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

The reason white mages and SE apparently think Cure V may imbalance the healing jobs, is white mage was marginalized to a degree at 75. I been playing since 2005 and I remember well things like the airship fight and our white mage being told they weren't allowed to come because only red mage could heal that fight. (The white mage wasn't me, I only had black mage at that time. ) That advanced to my limbus shell saying white mages were never allowed in limbus except for bosses, on to Salvage where it was red mage only as well. Of course experience was the most egregious example of white mage being excluded.

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Another example of no matter how hard the content, players will pull this if they can get away with it. This is the cause of many of the problems we have.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

SE attempted to rectify this with the solace and misery adjustments, but even at 75 white mage was a second class healer in some people's opinion. So just dumping Cure V on red mage and scholar, who bring mp longetivity and high tier nukes compared to a white mage, may make the balance skew away from the job whose only purpose is to heal. Will the cureskin update, the advanced bar spells, the curagas, etc make it so white mage is still the preferred healer if scholar and red mage get Cure V. I am not sure, maybe, but right now its a chance a lot of white mages, and apparently SE for now don't' want to take.

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I've been straight up told on more then one occasion that if Red Mage gets Cure V, Red Mages would be the preferred healers.

Maybe Red Mage desperately needs more healing power, but putting White Mage into a worse position then Red Mage is right now to do it is not the solution. That this will happen is a very big risk, and no plan to date that I've seen for it has really shown me solid numbers while coming from someone who is actually informed about healing. I'm not convinced that bigger enmity generation for other jobs will mean much, I haven't seen a plan to make Cure VI be not terrible enough to make up for it, and I've heard completely bad ideas in general, like "not taking the VIT modifier into account for other jobs!" When you deal with people that think that VIT makes a huge difference on a good Cure V build, it becomes harder to respect their position, even when it might be very logical.

Cureskin isn't the only thing going for Whm making it the only worthwhile healer to bring anywhere on not fodder content. It just adds to it.

Anyone who still thinks Cure V is all that separates Whm from Rdm in healing potential needs to step out of 2006.

@Above with Rapture yes Sch will outcure but otherwise ignoring cureskin is pretty what. That is an additional 400 hp on top of the cured amount, even with aurastorm + Twilight cape Sch still can't match that.

SE wants to give SCH more regen potential as they get regen enhancing gear and the spells earlier than any job. Saying WHM should be the only class with Cure5/6 and that any other class getting it would reduce WHM's spot as top healer is like saying giving weapon skills past level 48 to other melee reduces WAR's spot as top damage dealer. Why can we have 8-10 damage dealers, 2-3 tank jobs 2-3 magic damage nukers but only 1 healer?

Why doesn't WHM have to compete with other jobs for a spot like WAR DRK RNG DRG SAM MNK THF BST NIN PUP have at a DD slot?

"Because WHm was designed only to heal" -- If that was the case lets strip them of all their enhancing spells and enfeebling spells because RDM is obviously better at that than WHM yet WHM enhances way better and has gear/merits to enhanes their regens/bars and they have every white magic enfeeble we do except merits. That's like giving SCH PLD RDM Cure V and all Curagas and Cure Skin but making Cure VI WHM merit only.

The damage without Auspice/Misery Bonus still sucks but SE still fixed Holy's range and gave them Holy II, and is working on higher tier Banishes.

Whm is a better enhancer (in terms of actually being able to, you know, give buffs to the pt) than Rdm bar Phalanx II as well... and has higher base combat skill + Doesn't need Empyrean to access it (Not that emps are hard, But having your best WS untethered to 1 weapon unless said weapon enhances said WS is a boon. 95 Relic is better than any other weapon for pure damage for them anyway). The only thing they're missing is damaging nukes.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Anyone who still thinks Cure V is all that separates Whm from Rdm in healing potential needs to step out of 2006.
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You're ignoring the point.

Let me bold it for you.

It is not about the high end of the curing ability so much as the low end of the curing requirement. Player will go with the bottom of the barrel cure if they can afford to get away with it, and WHM lacks the other utilities to make it a compedetive pick against RDM and SCH unless RDM and SCH are more or less incapable of filling the role.

The Playerbase WILL force all support roles onto one job if they feel they can get away with it. (Back to RDM+BRD days.) Instead of distributing their functions into a more varied set-up.

If RDM or SCH is capable of taking the healing load, goodbye WHM. It dosen't matter if the WHM is a better healer or not, another mage just just has to be passable to bump WHM off. It currently does not have enough of a draw into other functions to make it a contender outside "Omg this mob's tough we need a whm!"

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

White Mage is arguably the most OP job in the game and you want to make it better as a prerequisite to throwing a bone to other jobs? I don't even know how to respond to that.

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He has literally no idea what he's talking about, it's pretty funny.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Personally, I'm thinking of dropping SCH from the ally for new voidwatch (zilart specifically) to give its spot to another DD.

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Should probably not invite SCH's who are horrible at FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

You're ignoring the point.

Let me bold it for you.

It is not about the high end of the curing ability so much as the low end of the curing requirement. Player will go with the bottom of the barrel cure if they can afford to get away with it, and WHM lacks the other utilities to make it a compedetive pick against RDM and SCH unless RDM and SCH are more or less incapable of filling the role.

The Playerbase WILL force all support roles onto one job if they feel they can get away with it. (Back to RDM+BRD days.) Instead of distributing their functions into a more varied set-up.

If RDM or SCH is capable of taking the healing load, goodbye WHM. It dosen't matter if the WHM is a better healer or not, another mage just just has to be passable to bump WHM off. It currently does not have enough of a draw into other functions to make it a contender outside "Omg this mob's tough we need a whm!"

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So every other role can be filled by multiple jobs, but it's not okay for other jobs that have healing skill to be capable of actually erm... healing?

Sorry that's bull.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

So every other role can be filled by multiple jobs, but it's not okay for other jobs that have healing skill to be capable of actually erm... healing?

Sorry that's bull.

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Not to mention poor game design.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

You're ignoring the point.

Let me bold it for you.

It is not about the high end of the curing ability so much as the low end of the curing requirement. Player will go with the bottom of the barrel cure if they can afford to get away with it, and WHM lacks the other utilities to make it a compedetive pick against RDM and SCH unless RDM and SCH are more or less incapable of filling the role.

The Playerbase WILL force all support roles onto one job if they feel they can get away with it. (Back to RDM+BRD days.) Instead of distributing their functions into a more varied set-up.

If RDM or SCH is capable of taking the healing load, goodbye WHM. It dosen't matter if the WHM is a better healer or not, another mage just just has to be passable to bump WHM off. It currently does not have enough of a draw into other functions to make it a contender outside "Omg this mob's tough we need a whm!"

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Lacks what other utilities? Mp conservation? Nope, Enfeebling - has all of ours bar merit spells, Enhancing bar 1 merit spell - Whm still ahead, meleeing? Whm had Rdm stomped pre temper, and Melee mages are not viable on hard content. That leaves you with Refresh 2 (unneeded if you brought decent support) and Saboteur T2 Spells (and nuking, but if you cared about magic damage you'd bring Blm/Sch/Even Blu is better in terms of mp/damage ratio also for extremely low hate).

Warning: Long post, lots of math.

Formula for cures:
h = floor(((3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT) / x) + y) + Equipment bonus) + Day bonus + Weather bonus)

Separating out primary aspects:

((3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT) / x) + y

Rename for clarity:

((3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT) / scale) + offset

And will consider the stat aspect as a single entity:

RawStat = (3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT)

So you can think of the formula as

RawStat / scale + offset

Just for reference, minimum HP healed:
Cure 1: 10
Cure 2: 60
Cure 3: 130
Cure 4: 270
Cure 5: 450


Now the important bits:

Initial offset:
Cure 1: -10
Cure 2: 20
Cure 3: 70
Cure 4: 165
Cure 5: 330

Initial scale:
Cure 1: 2
Cure 2: 2
Cure 3: 2
Cure 4: 4/3
Cure 5: 4/3

"Soft cap":
Cure 1: 20
Cure 2: 75
Cure 3: 160
Cure 4: 330
Cure 5: 570

RawStat required for soft cap:
Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 110
Cure 3: 180
Cure 4: 220
Cure 5: 320


After the soft cap, scale increases to 4 for all except Cure V, which drops to 1. Higher scale means less gain per mnd/vit/healing skill.

While wiki lists the soft cap in terms of total healed, it would make more sense mathematically to list in terms of raw combined stat: (3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT). When RawStat reaches a certain value, that RawStat/scale becomes the new offset and a new scale is implemented.


The values that wiki lists for progressing above the soft cap use a "y" (offset) value that assumes scale works from 0. Given that the scale is discontinuous, that's not the best way to present it. It should be more like:

((RawStat - SoftCapRawStat) / newScale) + SoftCap

Cure 1, for example, uses x = 4, y = 5 when applied to the full raw stat once past the soft cap. However if you calculate SoftCapRawStat/newScale, 60/4, you get 15; subtract 15 from the soft cap of 20 and you get 5, which explains the chosen y.

Continuing to the 'hard' cap (though not really a strict hard cap since it can still increase beyond that):

"Hard cap" healed:
Cure 1: 30
Cure 2: 90
Cure 3: 190
Cure 4: 390
Cure 5: 690

The RawStat increase needed to reach the hard cap would be:
Cure 1: 40
Cure 2: 60
Cure 3: 120
Cure 4: 240
Cure 5: 120

Total RawStat needed to reach the hard cap:
Cure 1: 100
Cure 2: 170
Cure 3: 300
Cure 4: 460
Cure 5: 440

You'll note that it takes more effort to get Cure IV up to its hard cap than to get Cure V up to its cap, and that the requirements over Cure III are also pretty substantial.


Then you have the scaling above the hard cap. This scale is the rate at which you need to increase the raw stat total to increase the amount of HP healed by 1.
Cure 1: 114
Cure 2: 214/3 (71.33)
Cure 3: 94/3 (31.33)
Cure 4: 13
Cure 5: 17/6 (2.833)

I'll note that some of the numbers really seem wonky, but I'm not the one who tested them so I'll just accept it. Regardless, they're all extremely high, except for Cure V. Additional RawStat has almost no impact.



Changes that I would make:

Change RawStat required for soft cap:
Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 110
Cure 3: 180
Cure 4: 220
Cure 5: 320

to

Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 120
Cure 3: 180
Cure 4: 240
Cure 5: 320

This gives a little more headroom on the fastest-scaling area for cures 2 and 4.

I'd then change the scaling for the soft cap zone from 4/4/4/4/1 to 4/4/4/2/1, giving Cure IV a better scaling rate in that area (keeping the RawStat required to reach the hard cap). The amount cured by each at their respective hard caps would then be:

Cure 1: 30
Cure 2: 110
Cure 3: 190
Cure 4: 465
Cure 5: 690

Which gives a fairly substantial boost to Cure IV, a near 20% increase in amount cured at its cap.

Then look into the post-hard cap scaling. Personally, I'd aim for about +10% cured per +100 RawStat. That would put their respective scalings at:
Cure 1: 33
Cure 2: 9
Cure 3: 5
Cure 4: 2
Cure 5: 1.4


Then the total amount cured at 480 RawStat for each of them would be:
Cure 1: -10 + 60/2 + 40/4 + 360/33 = 40
Cure 2: 20 + 120/2 + 60/4 + 300/9 = 128
Cure 3: 70 + 180/2 + 120/4 + 180/5 = 226
Cure 4: 165 + 240/(4/3) + 240/2 + 0/2 = 465
Cure 5: 330 + 320/(4/3) + 120/1 + 40/1.4 = 718

Which, if you add 50% cure potency, would give:
Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 192
Cure 3: 339
Cure 4: 697
Cure 5: 1077

Between the caps and the scaling, cures 1-4 gain the equivalent of somewhere around 15%-20% cure potency, putting Cure IV at roughly the equivalent of unbuffed lvl 75 Cure V's, and Cure III at a bit below lvl 75 Cure IV's. In other words, a functionally useful amount cured (over 1000 cured with Cure IV+III) without going overboard into whm's territory.

It's enough to be sufficient for lightly to moderately difficult fights, but still keeps whm as who you want for very difficult fights (shift down the scale depending on quality of mage, tank and/or DD, of course).


That would be my initial suggestion for adjusting healing abilities with an eye towards rdm and sch (with sch getting the extra edge of light weather). After that they can add extra things such as sch's enhanced regens, etc.

I want to say something about healing skill affecting cures more but /sch etc. otherwise at the very, very minimum (I am talking very minimum here) I can get behind the soft caps being raised. At the same time, Cure 4 still generates quite a bit of enmity, even more so if it cures for more hp. 6 is overkill but both 5 and 6 have fixed enmity generation.

Arguing in circles again.

I've already explained this before: You should invite your Hybrids to accompany your lower tier healers, and leave WHM as the undisputed king of burst healing.

If anything, hybrid jobs need a boost in this situation to make it work easier to this standard, rather than telling SCH and RDM they should be WHMs.

Healing is the least desired of an MMO role. So forcing that function on a singular job within a party, instead of distributing the role among multiple jobs that also serve other purposes goes against this dichotomy instead of working with it.

Again, SCH and RDM should have their own healing over time functions to compliment their damage prevention measures, but nothing more than that, as they already do have powerful damage prevention functions. (though again, RDM needs better spells to regard TP attacks.)

This wouldn't even be an augment if we had a spell that reduced the severity of TP attacks on the monster, we wouldn't need the burst healing you're asking for so loudly.


As far as poor game design, Cid. The poor game design was putting 20 jobs with the vast majority of them Damage Dealers with little other functionality. Placing your same bread and butter Healers in the game creates a very difficult job dynamic, instead of encouraging hybrid roles to accompanying more jobs.

And the more powerful you make the current jobs capable of healing, the harder that dynamic gets. You won't pick a Blue Mage over a Monk unless the monk cant' provide something you need, that a Blue Mage has. Same for every other Hybrid vs top tier damage dealer.

SE really pinned themselves hard in this situation because they're screwed either way. If they give Scholar and Red Mage the healing capacity people are asking for, the way they're asking for it, it will cause the same issues as it did in ToAU, hands down. And still, Hybrids and WHMs will lose out.

But if the player-base, stubborn as mules, will never invite 2 jobs to cover 3 roles if the split role is healing. Which really sucks for players who like playing hybrids.

I get the arguments for having more diversified healing base. But that sort of competition is unhealthy for the kind of jobs we have in this game. Instead we need to be upping the damage prevention utilities of more jobs, particularly RDM and SCH, to compensate.

For 'lighter duty' you shouldn't be needing cure V, and if we're to that point where we do, then for RDM specifically, it's our debuff and enhancing that needs a stronger looking at, NOT our Cure tier.

TL;DR?

Damage Prevention >>>>> Damage Recovery. We don't need stronger healers. We need stronger buffs and debuffs.

Okay, here's the plan.

If RDM gets Cure V, then RDM gets Tier 5 Nukes (along with new debuffs, of course), and Manifestation Nukes are SCH Main Job only. That is the only way I will accept seeing RDM get Cure V.

WHM and BLM will still have the stronger nukes and cures anyway because of their supplemental abilities and job traits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

Okay, here's the plan.

If RDM gets Cure V, then RDM gets Tier 5 Nukes (along with new debuffs, of course), and Manifestation Nukes are SCH Main Job only. That is the only way I will accept seeing RDM get Cure V.

WHM and BLM will still have the stronger nukes and cures anyway because of their supplemental abilities and job traits.

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Cure V and tier V nukes are not the same. Tier V nukes are comparable to Cure VI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motenten

That would be my initial suggestion for adjusting healing abilities with an eye towards rdm and sch (with sch getting the extra edge of light weather). After that they can add extra things such as sch's enhanced regens, etc.

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I would be behind this solution, where as SCH could get the enhanced regens and RDM more enhanced debuffs for damage prevention. A soft cap increase accompanied by the Cure Potency gear would bring the healing focus back on track without overshooting it the way Cure V itself would.

Though, that would be more work on SE's end. Still, better than just slapping another tier on RDM and SCH and calling it a day. Cure V is way too toxic of a spell in that regard.