Hvergelmir WTF SE

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

These weapons (mythics aside) Are NOT designed to "enhance the strengths of the class." Once you get over that fact, these weapons should be more acceptable to you. Empyreans were built to be among the strongest weapon weapons in their weapon class (which the staff achieves- it is the strongest staff weapon in the game- not the strongest stat booster staff, the strongest weapon staff). Nothing more. If they were designed to enhance the strengths of the jobs, there would be 20 of them, one for each job, with job specific effects on them. Oh wait, those already exist, those are the mythics.

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Exactly, this.

This staff doesn't need much else. In fact, I'm glad it's getting more mp on it so I can get more mp returned when I use Myrky (1800 just isn't enough!). Speaking from a summoner standpoint this staff is just fine the way it is. It beats out any perpetuation stave I can hope to get and then some. Outside and in of abyssea I can get back my /entire/ bar of normal mp (That is outside my WS set) in one weaponskill. No perpetuation stave is going to touch this, not Nirvana.. not ever. As it stands I already have free avatars+ mp with bahamut's. Emp Staff covers not only perp costs, but the cost of spamming blood pacts + any spells I so choose with impunity (and with regain atams I never even have to really get close to combat either). Outside of aby, I use wings, Meditate, I get TP on nearby mobs and store it, or use other methods regular melee use to get tp. But then again, it's not like tp is hard to get: even at 100 tp I get almost 600 mp back.

People need to accept this staff for what it is and stop making it what it will never be. It is a melee weapon and a source of limitless MP. Oh and speaking from the scholar standpoint, because I use it on my scholar too: Perpetuance: Adloquium = 120tp. This works fine and dandy for me outside of aby. And as for blm, I've toyed around with it against my fellow blm in shell. My damage levels out with theirs since I'm still casting long after they are out of mp and when I do finally pull hate, I'm able to stay alive pretty much forever because I'm constantly using myrky to keep mana wall alive. Really, with atams on I don't nuke much less harder than they do with the staff equipped, nor do I get resisted much at all... Outside of aby, still don't get resisted much at all, damage, they are a bit higher but I still beat them because: I'm the energizer bunny of mages.

Stop complaining about trying to change the staff to suit YOUR play style. Learn to adapt YOUR play style to the weapon instead.

I don't think SE are wrong with the concept that mages melee. Some of them do. What I wonder is why they never add armors to help melee, but they keep adding rare weapons.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

As for ya Mythic stuff.

BLM
Magian gives +25% DMG
BLM Staff gives +50 Mab

Outside abyssea BLM has around 90 MAB in best case

190 MAB + 50 MAB = about a 26% increase in DMG so even if it's 1% the BLM staff is better than all the Trail staffs ooooooooooooooo and u don't need to change staff between nukes so eventully u'll get enough TP to use the Magic attack aftermath o and u get a mdef down effect on the mob which will boost your DMG by another 10% so now your looking at 40% vs 26% outside of abyssea when BLM gets enough tp ofc.

Mythic BLM Staff is the best BLM staff outside of abyssea.

As for the SCH one it's so sititational it sucks but in any case enmity is an issue this staff allows SCH to be the best nuker.

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...What i have in bold is the problem with your statement. magian increase damage by 30% when fully upgraded not 25% (and soon this will be 35% when +3 comes out)

This means magian still beat the mythic weapon.... thus mythic still sucks when you conpare the work it takes to get a magian with the work it takes to get a mythic.

......mythic still needs work. :p

edit: also while im at it... im pretty sure because of the diminishing returns of the stat "Magic attack bouns" that the increase your talking about is less then 26%... which hurts your case even more.

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Hvergelmir
DMG: 98 Delay: 390 INT+15
"Ultima"
Aftermath: Occasionally deals double damage (inc. avatars)
Lv. 90 BLM SMN SCH

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Oooh me likey likey this idea.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

Stop complaining about trying to change the staff to suit YOUR play style. Learn to adapt YOUR play style to the weapon instead.

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I'm working on getting a Empyrean Club, any suggestions on how to make the WS useful? I always assumed the WS was a bonus joke to further anger Paladins, since WHM doesn't have problems doing massive damage with a weapon skill, empyrean or not.

Also, this guy is right - the staff isn't going to and should not change. If you want a staff for nuking, get SE to fix a staff that was designed for that - whether it is the mythic BLM staff, or the Dorje.

lol Dorje sucks... and as i've stated above blm mythic has unadressed problems.

Getting 30,000 Alexandrite only to lose to a Magian.

Only in my FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

I'm working on getting a Empyrean Club, any suggestions on how to make the WS useful? I always assumed the WS was a bonus joke to further anger Paladins, since WHM doesn't have problems doing massive damage with a weapon skill, empyrean or not.

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I have someone in my LS with this club actually (soon to be 2 people) he pairs it with an augmented Genbu shield for the buffs off that. When he WS he stacks on all the HP/MP gear he can (extra emphasis on the mp gear). The WS behaves exactly like Myrky in that you can engage at max range, use the WS, get no agrro (I use my Myrky on what ever mob happens to be walking by for instance) get your mp/hp back and keep going.

He has few MP issues on whm with this club and enjoys using it especially as a meleeWHM (^_^) It's a beast for soloing. He uses atma of perfect attendance and always has enough tp to take his club out and give himself mp back between cures when he looks like he's getting low... Again he doesn't have to get close to use this WS (this is something people continuously forget time and time again with staff and club I might add. You do NOT have to get close to use WS).

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

SCH With this staff and use of stragems 1/2mp with af3+2 and sublimation you pretty much will never run out of mp

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As for the SCH one it's so sititational it sucks but in any case enmity is an issue this staff allows SCH to be the best nuker.

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In any case where enmity is an issue, SCH mythic holds no comparison whatsoever to enmity douse.

Even if it did, I have a -50% enmity set which accomplishes the same thing and doesnt require the correct weather or 30,000 alexandrite.

Unlike a Summoner though, I can't afford to use Sea Daughter because the slow would kill my ability to cure.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

The WS behaves exactly like Myrky in that you can engage at max range, use the WS, get no agrro (I use my Myrky on what ever mob happens to be walking by for instance) get your mp/hp back and keep going.

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I just think it is kinda strange that it restores HP at all, since as a White Mage you can just cure yourself with more MP. Perhaps I'm missing something... still, I suppose it would be an upgrade to Mystic Boon in some situations.

The Club WS just feels like something you'd give a Paladin or something.

EDIT: page late

this staff honestly could be easily fixed with the next trial and have it be called "Wielder's Affinity 1" and have that translate to all elements affinity +1 for macc and mab then have the lvl 99 staff be affinity +3 or 4

I don't see them adding Affinity to it.

What they should do is add a very high tier of Occult Acumen to it.

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Why do you use a TP wing? Because you can't get TP on anything that matters to trip the aftermaths good sir. Thanks for proving that the weapons don't even function properly without outside items.

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Uh, no. The TP wing idea is for people who don't want to melee. I absolutely can hit whatever I want with it. The weapon absolutely does "funciton properly." It's not malfuncitoning just because you don't use a TP wing, it's just a SUGGESTION for people who would like to use the weapon skill as an extra source of MP as if it were, say, an MP potion, but without ever attacking, since that's so taboo for some of you. Personally, while I don't make a regular habit of it, I have been able to hit with high accuracy against anything anyone else can hit accurately. Stop acting like these jobs are D rank in their weapon. Their skill is high enough (well maybe not SCH...) to hit anything they might want to hit with it.

What do you really want, anyway? Every relic/mythic/empyrean has a special WS associated with it. The only way to use that weapon skill is to either attack or use a TP wing, whether it's a staff or a scythe, and whther it has stats on it you care about or not. You're most likely using this solo, so we, the people who own this weapon, are not suggesting you go try to melee Rani or something. We're suggesting you use it where you can for the function it serves: One of the best MP restoral effects in the game. If you stack max MP when you use it, you can easily get up to 1000 MP or more out of it. Other than the most die hard fans, who cares what else the darn thing does? The weapon skill is the whole purpose of the weapon. If you don't like that, well, too bad.

I'm not "grasping at straws." but arguing against people such as yourself is a pointless effort because you've made up your mind and are not willing to entertain views that oppose your own.

(For the record, I didn't really want to have this conversation again. In the context of the original post, my response was basically meant to say "Wait, you were expecting the next magian trial to totally transform the staff into something completely different? That's expecting too much, especially from SE.")

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

(For the record, I didn't really want to have this conversation again. In the context of the original post, my response was basically meant to say "Wait, you were expecting the next magian trial to totally transform the staff into something completely different? That's expecting too much, especially from SE.")

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It really bugs me that people made these expecting them to be for anything but melee. The only way I can expect this thing to ever affect spells/avatars directly is by extending the aftermath to those, but this item is a melee staff. It never had casting stats on it in the first place.

The staff is fine, the expectations are wrong. Seriously, ask SE to fix the Dorje.

The staff for it's purpose is good.

Of course any BLM, SCH, or SMN meleeing simply isn't good.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

It beats out any perpetuation stave I can hope to get and then some.

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You know, there are at least a dozen posters who will read this from a dozen smn and still give all credit to me. I will recognize you. (^^)d

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

The staff for it's purpose is good.

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MP = damage. Sure, it's not as easy to do for the WAR who occasionally just wastes a party slot. For the really bad SMN, we have NQ ele staves. If you spend the time getting all the other gear, those staves are just as worthless as the +3 magian staves.

Hvergelmir is the worst Empyrean weapon.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Hvergelmir is the worst Empyrean weapon.

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SMN is not a pure DD job. Hvergelmir is the best SMN weapon.

Quit stinkin up the place, WAR.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Hvergelmir is the worst Empyrean weapon.

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*cough* Camlann's Torment *cough*

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

The staff for it's purpose is good.

Of course any BLM, SCH, or SMN meleeing simply isn't good.

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haven't been reading all the way through have you. It isn't necessary for them TO melee to use the WS. Especially in abyssea, you.. do know this right? I know you do, stop being coy. :)

Tann, I just realized your sig is standing in a "T" shape. Inspired by the "YMCA" song? ;)

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Hvergelmir is the worst Empyrean weapon.

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You're the worst Empyrean weapon! :P <3

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Uh, no. The TP wing idea is for people who don't want to melee. I absolutely can hit whatever I want with it. The weapon absolutely does "funciton properly." It's not malfuncitoning just because you don't use a TP wing, it's just a SUGGESTION for people who would like to use the weapon skill as an extra source of MP as if it were, say, an MP potion, but without ever attacking, since that's so taboo for some of you.

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The problem with a TP wing is that it isn't always available and is merely a workaround on the issue mages have with meleeing... namely that they suck at it. Dont get me wrong, I know you can use the Hvergelmir as a battery but the primary way to get that battery working is to get up front and melee.

(Or have a COR like me that often Tactician Roll's the party at stuff like Voidwatch)

You're missing my point and that is that mages do not make good melee. SE knows this yet they continue to churn out these "ultimate" weapons that revolve around the worst part of the class. What if the ultimate melee weapons required casting spells? Would you then tell me it'd work so long as a I pack some ethers beforehand?

It doesn't make sense.

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Personally, while I don't make a regular habit of it, I have been able to hit with high accuracy against anything anyone else can hit accurately. Stop acting like these jobs are D rank in their weapon. Their skill is high enough (well maybe not SCH...) to hit anything they might want to hit with it.

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Im going to call bollocks on this.

Against difficult targets, even DD have trouble hitting monsters meaning the ill-equipped mage is going to be in the toilet accuracy-wise. On easy targets you'll be able to get away with being near the front lines but at even the lowest tier of endgame your accuracy is going to suffer, you'll be in range of AoEs and the MP gained through being a frontliner becomes less and less effective.

Did I also mention that time meleeing is time you're not doing something else? Like support, crowd control, healing etc. I'll reiterate that I can see situations where the staff could be useful like popping a wing after an item dump !! then getting your MP back through the staff WS but that still puts the staff way below every other Empyrean by a good distance.

(It's not like the ODD works on nukes or avatars... nope, more melee-oriented garbage for a mage)

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What do you really want, anyway? Every relic/mythic/empyrean has a special WS associated with it. The only way to use that weapon skill is to either attack or use a TP wing, whether it's a staff or a scythe, and whther it has stats on it you care about or not. You're most likely using this solo, so we, the people who own this weapon, are not suggesting you go try to melee Rani or something. We're suggesting you use it where you can for the function it serves: One of the best MP restoral effects in the game. If you stack max MP when you use it, you can easily get up to 1000 MP or more out of it. Other than the most die hard fans, who cares what else the darn thing does? The weapon skill is the whole purpose of the weapon. If you don't like that, well, too bad.

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Too bad indeed that SE can't realize that mage weapons should serve mage purposes and you shouldn't have to be shoehorned into meleeing when the classes offer little in the way of gear to serve that purpose.

Melee aren't suddenly asked to cast spells to access their tools, PLD shields don't require support spells to activate and the BRD harp/horn doesn't suddenly require you to tank in order to activate the unique effects but it's perfectly fine for mages to be tied down to melee in order for their weapons to work.

Right.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Tann, I just realized your sig is standing in a "T" shape. Inspired by the "YMCA" song? ;)

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It's always fun at the...




Horutoto Ruins!!!!

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

*cough* Camlann's Torment *cough*

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Can still use Drakesbane with it, and can keep aftermath up too. Just gotta play with it correctly.

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Originally Posted by Tannlore

haven't been reading all the way through have you. It isn't necessary for them TO melee to use the WS. Especially in abyssea, you.. do know this right? I know you do, stop being coy. :)

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You're asking for a lot. Usually SMN is in it's own party, and not usually inside Abyssea in the first place.
1) Sacrificing ally resorces to give you TP is bad, mmmmmkay
2) Sacrificing atma slots to give you TP is bad, also
3) Sacrificing atmacite slots is actually ok. So this is something that makes the staff usable for TP regeneration.

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You're missing my point and that is that mages do not make good melee.

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You're missing the point that it isn't about being good melee. The staff has utility, regardless of your melee capability. It's also really easy to get among empyrean weapons.

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Melee aren't suddenly asked to cast spells to access their tools, PLD shields don't require support spells to activate

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err what? ninjas cast spells, DRKs might cast certain spells, PLDs definitely cast spells. And actually PLD shields do require spells to activate *more*.

It's fine that you don't like the staff, but it is there for the people who do like it and have a use for it. If you're able to leverage it, Myrkr is a great tool to have, not just for the MP restore but for the status cure too.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

2) Sacrificing atma slots to give you TP is bad

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LOL, Physical pacts > magic pacts and Myrkr > Minikin. It all comes down to a Ukon WAR having to eventually admit he is a subpar SMN.

Sacrificing atma slots to give you TP is bad

l2read

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You're missing the point that it isn't about being good melee. The staff has utility, regardless of your melee capability. It's also really easy to get among empyrean weapons.

err what? ninjas cast spells, DRKs might cast certain spells, PLDs definitely cast spells. And actually PLD shields do require spells to activate *more*.

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What? Aegis doesn't require any "spell" to activate more, it is always active. I shouldn't have to explain Ochain.

Having utility doesn't stop the staff from having poor utility by being tied to the worst aspect of the jobs that can equip it, especially since all 3 typically have better things to do than waste time poking the mob with a weapon that does nothing to enhance each job's strengths. No one cares about how useful it is in giving unlimited mp versus trash mobs.

Best weapons for Mages are Mythics...period... BLM mythic at lv99 has something like... MAB+50. How I know this is it goes +5-10 MAB every 5 levels.

That do crazy... amount damage. Could do something like 15k-40k dmg a tier5 with brew on. It pretty muh gives you extra 5-10k DMG to your high lvl spells.

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Originally Posted by Venat

Best weapons for Mages are Mythics...period... BLM mythic at lv99 has something like... MAB+50. How I know this is it goes +5-10 MAB every 5 levels.

That do crazy... amount damage. Could do something like 15k-40k dmg a tier5 with brew on. It pretty muh gives you extra 5-10k DMG to your high lvl spells.

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That's, what, I just, no, I'm just going to go with you're retarded and call it a night.

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What? Aegis doesn't require any "spell" to activate more, it is always active.

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I was referring to the use of Reprisal. I'm no PLD expert, but the spell description does say "increases chance of blocking with shield."

Thereby using a "tool" to get a better block rate.

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Originally Posted by Venat

Best weapons for Mages are Mythics...period... BLM mythic at lv99 has something like... MAB+50. How I know this is it goes +5-10 MAB every 5 levels.

That do crazy... amount damage. Could do something like 15k-40k dmg a tier5 with brew on. It pretty muh gives you extra 5-10k DMG to your high lvl spells.

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....No matter how many times I scream about how uneffective the black mage mythic is... all people seems to do (like this guy) is look at the final product and say: OMG 50 mab... this is the best weapon ever!!!!!

........well I'm going to repost the post I made earlier in this thread that you clearly didn't bother to read then call it a night.

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Originally Posted by Rezeak

As for ya Mythic stuff.

BLM
Magian gives +25% DMG
BLM Staff gives +50 Mab

Outside abyssea BLM has around 90 MAB in best case

190 MAB + 50 MAB = about a 26% increase in DMG so even if it's 1% the BLM staff is better than all the Trail staffs ooooooooooooooo and u don't need to change staff between nukes so eventully u'll get enough TP to use the Magic attack aftermath o and u get a mdef down effect on the mob which will boost your DMG by another 10% so now your looking at 40% vs 26% outside of abyssea when BLM gets enough tp ofc.

Mythic BLM Staff is the best BLM staff outside of abyssea.

As for the SCH one it's so sititational it sucks but in any case enmity is an issue this staff allows SCH to be the best nuker.

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Originally Posted by Darkwizardzin

...What i have in bold is the problem with your statement. magian increase damage by 30% when fully upgraded not 25% (and soon this will be 35% when +3 comes out)

This means magian still beat the mythic weapon.... thus mythic still sucks when you conpare the work it takes to get a magian with the work it takes to get a mythic.

......mythic still needs work. :p

edit: also while im at it... im pretty sure because of the diminishing returns of the stat "Magic attack bouns" that the increase your talking about is less then 26%... which hurts your case even more.

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....Im sorry if I seem rude but this needs to be said... Please do not post your opinions about topics you know little about as if they are facts... that's how bad information/opinions spread and that only hurts our chances our hopfuly one day of getting a mythic weapon that is worthwhile.

best signature ever

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Originally Posted by Sira

best signature ever

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>.>

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Can still use Drakesbane with it, and can keep aftermath up too. Just gotta play with it correctly.

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I wasn't aware aftermath effects would proc on non-associated weapon skills on these weapons. (i.e. Drakesbane getting the occ. double damage boost from camm. torment). To my knowlege, it only effects normal attacks. At least this is how the relic bravura in my LS and my own emp staff behaves. So no, you'd only get that nice extra umph on the normal attacks.. drakes would all be... le sigh... normal. This is why I didn't make that polearm: That is a sad Emp weapon.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

You're asking for a lot. Usually SMN is in it's own party, and not usually inside Abyssea in the first place.
1) Sacrificing ally resorces to give you TP is bad, mmmmmkay
2) Sacrificing atma slots to give you TP is bad, also

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1) I don't understand how ally resources are sacrificed to give me TP. elaborate here si vous plez. SMN is mostly a solo job, I don't need a baby sitter. If I'm in my own party then there's no resources to speak of by my own resources to begin with yes? I can keep myself alive, I can stay out of stupid, when the alliance is wiping, I'm usually one of the last people to die because I STAYED out of the AoE, while doing damage with my staff, while doing damage with my avatar while curing people. Yes it can be done, yes you have to watch what your doing, yes you have to have an IQ bigger than your left shoe.

And no, I'm not a AMG staff must be out all the time!!!1! smn either. There's a time an place to swing the thing too. TP spam from mobs: No thanks. But not every mob in the game is a tp spam or AoE event either. So stop using this as an excuse against this staff people. Seriously.. it gets old.

2) This is not true. You have smn 90, I know you do. You seriously know better than to say that TP is a "Sacrifice" for smn in any shape or form. Shame on you and hang your head for even suggesting it. Your merit blood pacts are boosted by this very thing. I should put you in smn kindergarten for even suggesting this as being "Bad". Arguably there are better setups for given situations, and I will sacrifice regain for a full proper MAB setup, but usually I don't have to because I have Pet: MAB coming out my arse in rainbows.

But to say that TP for your avatars is bad... really..

It's pretty dumb to talk about how Atma make something like Hverg (or even Gamb) viable, considering that MP isn't the remotest issue for anyone inside Abyssea (Hi Minkin and gear). For instance, if your White Mage needs to use Gamb to keep MP up, they should have invested some of the time they wasted on it getting AF3+2 legs instead.

I still remember how disappointed the BLM community was when Laev was first tested at fanfest. It came down to people saying things like, "If they had just put 1MP/tick on it, I could have justified getting it."

I'm not saying pet TP is bad, I'm saying using an Atma slot on it is bad. (I'd assume using an Atmacite slot on it is bad too, now that I see there are MAB ones).

Considering 5/5 Heavenly Strike is +100 TP bonus, Legs +2 are +100 TP bonus (I think?), and you can Mana Cede for 300% effective TP on a BP/release type of deal using an atma slot for VV would be pointless in that respect.

I can understand VV if you're using Garuda, I guess, assuming STR is a Predator Claws mod or it helps fSTR in some way on your Avatar.

It depends on your target I guess though; some don't take much physical damage, some don't take much magical damage. I'd Beyond/MM/Ultimate for magical damage and use the INT+9, Pet: MAB+9 staff, RR/GH/VV for physical damage assuming you have a Hvergelmir85+, and previous criteria are met and that would be fantastic if the Regain on VV beats out the refresh on MM. Sea Daughter is just too much of a loss in actual DPS and utility though.

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RR/GH/VV for physical damage assuming you have a Hvergelmir85+, and previous criteria are met and that would be fantastic if the Regain on VV beats out the refresh on MM.

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150 ticks to 300 TP, so if you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set (and WS @300% every time), they break even. Beats Minikin by a mile when using physical pacts.

In the offchance you can melee while you're at it, it is pretty much impossible to run out of MP, short of Impacting things for the lulz.

I know it's the cool thing to do to talk shit on Hvergelmir, but from SMN's perspective at least, it's a really, really fun weapon that caters to a specific style of play (and is hands-down the best weapon for that style): meleeing. It ain't for everyone, and it ain't for everything, but it's hella fun when used properly in the proper situations.

For BLMs and SCHs though, yeah, WTF. Put some Occult Accumen on this thing so it has a purpose beyond TP wings and town gear... it would give the weapon so many opportunities for outside-the-box thinkers on both jobs.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I can understand VV if you're using Garuda, I guess, assuming STR is a Predator Claws mod or it helps fSTR in some way on your Avatar.

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Sorry if this post lacks my usual clarity (if such clarity even exists), since tonight's pain relievers of choice are not kind to me.

The more normal part is that pets don't benefit from cruor buffs and thus start with lower STR, and the much weirder part is that STR somehow affects avatar damage much more than it affects a player's damage. I can't explain it without digging out the testing because I never bothered to memorize it, but it's a huge effect compared to what you'd expect to see or what an avatar gets from most forms of attack.