MNK/WAR tank I'm confused Please Assist

i'll add to the troll fest.

i totally sub /dnc and stun all tp moves with flourish!

or something along those lines. <_<

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Originally Posted by Gokku

Caste ni
wait for 3 shadows
pop pefrect counter
caste ichi
repeat as nessicary OR
pop perfect on the last shadow of ni and regardless of if the mob strips the shadow manually drop it when ichi is 1/2 way cast.

learn to tank on monk

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You do know that perfect counter will remain up with shadows up why would cancel it? What if the mob decides to aga or do an aoe tp move and you still have 45 sec cool down on perfect counter timer? Why are you starting out the fight with Ni up? You do know that ichi overwrites ichi and Ni overwrites both. Save perfect counter for when you need to recast ichi and your timers are down for both. Meh I won't get into teaching you how to really tank as mnk/nin. It's too annoying for the feeble minded. TBH I would much rather have a pld be the main tank for anything outside abyssea. Well it is fun to tank kirin as mnk but only because we used to have to sit back and boost for 2:45 and then chi blast QQ Yes, I've been around on mnk that long! Mnk may get high hp and vit, but the gear and def just doesn't make up for what a pld has. Moral of this story is, be nice to your whms, rdms and brds. They are there to keep you alive and having a mnk/nin main tank isn't always being nice to them.

honestly i solo'd all of my thf sam nin head seals by bouncing back and forth from bestruk to pallid as monk/blm stunning all GA's and single targets with shoulder tackle/stun. took forever but it beat waiting around in all seriousness dont do this lol just get some friends to help you proc and some th or you will be there for ever.

You do know that perfect counter will remain up with shadows up why would cancel it?
you cancel the last shadow of ni as a mob attack and it will still take that shadow from ni but your ichi will be up this is assuming the mob doesn't double or triple attack in which case your perfect counter would still allow ichi to go off.

What if the mob decides to aga or do an aoe tp move and you still have 45 sec cool down on perfect counter timer?
see above , also with capped haste generally you can ride ichi until you need to caste ni making the cooldown on perfect irrelevant.

Why are you starting out the fight with Ni up? You do know that ichi overwrites ichi and Ni overwrites both.
because it doesnt matter both give 3 shadows and ill have the timers on both @ 0 anyways.

Save perfect counter for when you need to recast ichi and your timers are down for both.
its just as much of a waste to ONLY use perfect when both timers are down , eventually your going to have both timers down and perfect not up shit happens.

Meh I won't get into teaching you how to really tank as mnk/nin. care to post your gear sets? id love to see what your using. i keep my tp set , inside abyssea vs , outside abyssea vs , pdt , mdt , chakra , evasion sets on me at all times on monk. so id love to see what your carrying / using that makes you such a grand master monk.

I'd love to see how you have room for chakra set just saying. I have an half ass pdt/mdt/eva (cos it's useless doh; thanks easy mode) no chakra gear and I'm 71/80

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/223548
thats my chakra set , and im @ around 72/80 with just the gear , im missing 4 items to finish my pdt set

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228624
pdt set missing the 2 earrings . and then the legs / feet debating on just buying the shantoto for 4% on legs instead of making my own +1 legs/feet since im 100 smithing.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/223667
outside abyssea vs my byakkos have 5stp 4crit dmg

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228690
Eva

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228692
Mdt

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228693
defualt tp set

thats most of it.

MNK/WAR
WHM/RDM

MNK/WAR punch monster
WHM/RDM cure MNK

Monster die

questions?

whm should be sub sch!

In abyssea there were mobs mentioned that can one shot you Emp de altepa..... Its going to kill you with or without shadows quit trying to come up with excuses on why you still sub ninja in abyssea. Follow the path most taken for Monks.
As far as casting gos spending the time to cast ni on a magic mob when its going to be interupted by your next few hits anyway makes no sense. Also all the mobs who have direct casting and will Ga spell your shadows away. The amount of mobs who have Tp moves that silence you are rediculous. All in all subbing ninja in abyssea is a waste of time and mp and you have plenty of HP if you wernt to lazy to get your Abby of merits, Which most mnks are. Get pdt set a mdt set, Learn to counter get ungimp or play pup by yourself.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

If we're assuming all Voidwatch? I'd very much like to see you tank Hahava and Voidwrought on MNK with only 1 WHM as your support.

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i'd love to see this as well, coz i know doe sure it would be a nightmare to do, since shaddows are going to be down majority of the time

I actually did "Better than one" assault the other day it was surprising how much I missed with all my merits and acc, Abyssea does make us lazy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gokku

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/223548
thats my chakra set , and im @ around 72/80 with just the gear , im missing 4 items to finish my pdt set

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228624
pdt set missing the 2 earrings . and then the legs / feet debating on just buying the shantoto for 4% on legs instead of making my own +1 legs/feet since im 100 smithing.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/223667
outside abyssea vs my byakkos have 5stp 4crit dmg

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228690
Eva

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228692
Mdt

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228693
defualt tp set

thats most of it.

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Even though it's not the subject your "outside ws set" is fail. STR > all except for DA and TA.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Even though it's not the subject your "outside ws set" is fail. STR > all except for DA and TA.

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except for the fact VS is a crit hit ws and without RR outside of abyssea your crit rate takes a massive drop. my "massive fail" is -5-15 str for an additional 8% crit rate while closing the D dex gap that occurs outside abyssea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gokku

except for the fact VS is a crit hit ws and without RR outside of abyssea your crit rate takes a massive drop. my "massive fail" is -5-15 str for an additional 8% crit rate while closing the D dex gap that occurs outside abyssea.

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Ya know you have Dex-11 between Hands and Belt right? If you knew what you were talking about, and actually trying to close that gap, you'd use at the very least Black Belt, augment a Warwolf Belt, or swing dex +13 on waist alone and use a Pipilaka Belt. You aren't helping dDex with that set. But you are right that STR isn't the end all for VS outside of Abyssea.

i know im not capping Ddex, the bonus from byakkos dex out does the minus of using heafoc / belt while still offering a straight 70-80dmg increase on all ws.

put it this way i have all the gear nessisary to make any change to my monk / VS set if someone can post some solid math disproving my set vs another set ill make the changes.

An augmented Shura Kabuto+1 should beat out that mask ya use to start. Also for any Voidwatch or higher level Dynamis NMs accuracy is going to factor into WS also. There is no way that you are anywhere near acc cap with that setup on any mob that's worth using a different set than what you'd use inside Abyssea. I haven't seen any hard data on VS crit bonus at 100%TP etc., but knowing base crit rate for what you mainly use that set for would help to further give you suggestions on what to adjust. Those Haidate might not be helping you as much as you think compared to str pants. Obviously str+6 haidate are very nice, but I don't expect or demand anyone having random pool agumented awesomeness.

ive thought about getting kabuto+1 and trying for aug's on it only 1 cursed kabuto-1 gets sold a month on our sever so its gonna be a bitch to catch it on AH. after looking at what i can get with perfect aug's im definitely going to start saving up tatters / hunting for -1.

your crit damage +4% most likely loses to usukane haidate, definatly to hachiryu. Hell a calmecac is better. If you have 15% crit hit rate, this stats improves your damage by 4% 15% of the time, by nothing 85% of the time, not factoring accuracy. If you assume acritical hits is 1.8 times a normal hit, you get

(0.15*1.04*1.8+0.85*1.0)/(0.15*1.8+0.85)=1.0096=+0.96% damage. Not much. say you WS in ~170 STR, that brings about 84 WS mods if the 0.83 factor is still valid. +5 STR gives you now +3 DMG. 377 skill give 44 DMG, +35 from weapon. Your new DMG is 35+44+87=166. Old damage is 163. 166/163=1.018=+1.18%, so yeah, a basic shura haidate is better ( outside abyssea), let alone usukane haidate, calmecac trousers or hachiryu haidate. Now if teh +5 STR only give you +2 DMG then the 10 attack on usukane fill the gap nicely.

No, your are not getting high dDEX with that gear, and 15% crit rate is already assuming your are far above monster's AGI.

Outside of abyssea the general rule is multi hit > STR > crit % or dmg. Exception is leg because hachiryu>usukane>calmecac>???.

Dont bother with DEX build outside abyssea, you won't succeed, you'l sacrifice too much multi hit or STR. Also personally I try to keep my accuracy comparable in melee and WS, heafoc and bier belt dont help with that, even though they are the best in abyssea.

Don't forget you have Impetus 60% of the time also, pushing avg crit rate up. I'm pretty sure generic shura doesn't beat byakko. Even though as Impetus's crit dmg bonus increases, it devalues Byakko's +4.

how does it devalue it , since your not capping crit dmg+?

Let's say a crit hit is 100dmg. You have no other sources of crit dmg bonus except byakko's haidate. Crit dmg is now 104, or a 4% increase. Now let's say you have a bonus 16 from impetus, crit damage is 116 before haidate. Adding Byakko's would increase that dmg from 116>120 or a 3.45% dmg increase for crits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gokku

i know im not capping Ddex, the bonus from byakkos dex out does the minus of using heafoc / belt while still offering a straight 70-80dmg increase on all ws.

put it this way i have all the gear nessisary to make any change to my monk / VS set if someone can post some solid math disproving my set vs another set ill make the changes.

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crit damage is the worse because your crit rate is low. I'll show you on an exemple how your byakko compares to usukane legs, with more details since VS gives an actual base critical hit rate boost at 100% TP.

assume : 21% DA (brutal,epona,/war,atheling) 3% TA (epona)
critical : 10% base on Victory smite, 10% from ddex, merits, before leg.
critdamage : 0 base
STR: 140 base str
1.3 pdif (2.3 on crit) at which point 4 att is about 1% damage up

byakko : gives +1% crit rate due to +10 dex compared to usu legs and 4 crit dmg.
( (0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)*2.25+(0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)+3)*(76+11+0.85*0.6*140)*( 0.21*2.3*1.04 +0.79*1.3)=1721.636211

usukane :
( (1+0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)*2.25+(1+0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)+3)*(76+11+0.85*0.6*145)*( 0.20*2.3 +0.80*1.3)*1.03=1767

Your byakko is at best useful during impetus where you'll average 20% critrate however the higher critdmg boost probably makes it less interesting too. Did the math : when accounting for impetus you average ~20% base crit so 30% on Victory smite and I think +10% crit damage. Therefore the difference is now

byakko : ( (1+0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)*2.25+(1+0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)+3)*(76+11+0.85*0.6*140)*( 0.31*2.3*1.14 +0.79*1.3)=2071

usukane :
( (1+0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)*2.25+(1+0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)+3)*(76+11+0.85*0.6*145)*( 0.30*2.3*1.10 +0.80*1.3)*1.03=2119

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Originally Posted by Gokku

how does it devalue it , since your not capping crit dmg+?

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Decreasing returns ¿ Also the fact that impetus makes you cap critdmg at times implying byakko will be useless in these situations.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Decreasing returns ¿ Also the fact that impetus makes you cap critdmg at times implying byakko will be useless in these situations.

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unlike the other post , markov whats the crit dmg + cap?

it caps at 100%. Also I'd like to point out that your total dex according to the gear you posted is base + 6, so your are likely to get zero % crit rate from byakko. You need to equal or exceed the target's AGI+7 to gain one crit hit rate. In other words your base DEX must exceed the target's AGI which your are not even doing most likely unless low level mobs.

Answering only the OP

I will explain you easy why monk is a good tank in abbysea.

i will take as reference some NMs in abbysea. This NMs are very popular because they drop seals

Warbler

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Warbler

Funereal Apkallu

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Funereal_Apkallu

Wherwetrice

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Wherwetrice


Nonno

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Nonno


Why i choice this NMS? This Nms are almost imposible tank them with a blink tank even with Gnarled horn / Cloack and dagger / Sand emperor atmas and full eva gear. "This Mobs still hiting you pretty nice"

Vs this NMs the /nin tanks have a lot of problems. Here is where Monk/Warrior show the true potencial.

Having the Feet from dynamis. This one

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Melee_Gaiters_%2B1

Using atmas Gnarled Horn / Razed ruins / Sanguine scythe.

You will be hiting the 83% counterstance rate.

50% Ja counterstance + 13% Counter rate Monk lv 81. +10% From the Gaiters and 10% Gnarled horn atma.

You can Use Berserk, Stawart tonic and yellow curry bun before the fight. "And you will be countering the 8/10 attacks from the mob you are fighting making you a beast". This is the reason for Monk/War is very good in abbysea.

Now. There another situation where you will be asked. Come monk for tank enemies VERY dangerous. This enemies usually can do 2500 - 3k damage and 1 shot Good geared PLDS.

A good monk using HP gear and HP food and a nice set of atmas. Can hit 5000 HP. This is pretty enough for EAT TP moves dangerous, agas, etc. A good example

Tanking the Caturae creature like Rani, Raja, etc. This mobs are very dangerous and can hit 2500 - 3500 damage. So a good monk with 5k hp will be enough for tank them

Another good example is http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Apademak

Apademak Is super strong, i saw him Hit 3500 PLDS with Bar thundra, Magic damage reduction gear, shell and atma war lyon. A monk with 5000 hp will be enough for eat all his ultra strong tp moves. In this situations is where you will be asked come tank as monk. But usually the people use monk for farm seals, for farm coins and in some situations for tank this kind of enemies.

Don't make me laugh on judging monk on how you can tank NMs in abyssea. You don't tank anything in abyssea unless you purposely *choose* to fight it in a dumb way. Apademak is best brewed period. There is no excuse for not having brews as they are easily gotten or "easy mode no thanks" because you already mentionned atmas in your strategy. I'm all for the "let kill this NM without x" but first you should apply it to atmas because they are also gamebraking. Kill apademaks without brew and atma on neither you or your mages then maybe we can have a clear idea of why monk/war rocks (or sucks, in this case). What makes you kill (no tank) most high tier NMs in abyssea is either brew or atmas, no the job itself. Soon as you remove infinite refresh on your WHM you'll be asking for refresh2 ballad and marches for your shadows because your monk/war dies in 3 hits.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Don't make me laugh on judging monk on how you can tank NMs in abyssea. You don't tank anything in abyssea unless you purposely *choose* to fight it in a dumb way. Apademak is best brewed period. There is no excuse for not having brews as they are easily gotten

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"Gotten"...
on topic, no. Just no. I'm 49 Apedemaks into my Lv.90 Almace and haven't brewed a single one.
And yes, Brewing annoys the sh!t out of me. Half the people I know can't function properly in game during the times I need them to focus; VW. They're too used to the "oh snap..we're failing... brew it bro"

Saw some vets friggin wipe to Khim with 9 people because they've been turned into total chodes due to brews.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Apademak is best brewed period.

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everybody doesnt have only one friend and few alts monojob, and then might want to yellow it

To be fair, killing on the scale of Apademak Horns, it is significantly more time-efficient to farm cruor, farm pops, and brew 7-8 at a time with Sanguine Blade or Wildfire.

Otherwise though, y'all are just responding to Pchan. Y u do this?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

To be fair, killing on the scale of Apademak Horns, it is significantly more time-efficient to farm cruor, farm pops, and brew 7-8 at a time with Sanguine Blade or Wildfire.

Otherwise though, y'all are just responding to Pchan. Y u do this?

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So you agree with pchan, but you make an attack to him because its not ok to agree with him. Flash news: everyone already figured out chain brews saves a lot of time, excepts people who think breing X NM is a waste of a brew, as if cruor was a rare currency.

If anyone tells me wasting brew to get 75 dragua scales is stupid, ill tell them it only took me 12 hours to get 75 scales (combined in 2 farming sessions). Some people think they are god because they kill all their 50 dragua the right way!! Oh wait, they used atmas and cruor buffs, lol. WHo cares about those NMs? they are piss easy. Dragua 10min duo/trio at most. So Im saving like 50x10mn+KI farming time, thats why brews are good.

This reminds me of Fishing back in the days. There were fishers who thought only real fishermen got their 10000 moat carp ( or whatever the number is) on their own. People who got them off the AH were level 100 before the guy who fished his carps was lv 50 lol.

Save VW to the PLD's.

Sure T1-T3 can be done on a MNK. Have done quite a few even as /SAM for half the fight (due to a non-ochain PLD dying). However as mentioned, if you want a stress-free VW run - let the PLD's tank.

Why /SAM? People have heard of meditate & dusty wings right? General consensus is to use a COR as DD's TP source while you wait for hints on procs. Half of the time you are sitting there with 300% TP. Sekkanoki > combo > shoulder tackle > dusty wing > backhand blow. That's 3x procs covered in a few seconds. Not to mention Meditate.

As for the whole /war vs /nin debate. Outside abyssea > just use NIN or PLD. Can be done on MNK but I would hardly call it "ideal".

Aside from that - people have not mentioned the massive enmity reduction you get from going /nin due to the lack of Provoke & DPS. When you have a BLM standing there trying to proc or manaburn something to death - you need that extra means of turning the mobs head rather then Utsusemi etc.

As for the various people that obviously doesn't know what a tank is :

A tank is a player that has pulled hate and is being wacked on by the mob. Hell, I have seen a WHM tank & hold turul for a solid amount of time while the rest of the PT finally got to him after roaming the rest of the zone.

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Originally Posted by Monchat

So you agree with pchan, but you make an attack to him because its not ok to agree with him. Flash news: everyone already figured out chain brews saves a lot of time, excepts people who think breing X NM is a waste of a brew, as if cruor was a rare currency.

If anyone tells me wasting brew to get 75 dragua scales is stupid, ill tell them it only took me 12 hours to get 75 scales (combined in 2 farming sessions). Some people think they are god because they kill all their 50 dragua the right way!! Oh wait, they used atmas and cruor buffs, lol. WHo cares about those NMs? they are piss easy. Dragua 10min duo/trio at most. So Im saving like 50x10mn+KI farming time, thats why brews are good.

This reminds me of Fishing back in the days. There were fishers who thought only real fishermen got their 10000 moat carp ( or whatever the number is) on their own. People who got them off the AH were level 100 before the guy who fished his carps was lv 50 lol.

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What? I'm not allowed to acknowledge when Pchan says something that is functionally correct while also maintaining that he is a ginormous, flaming troll that no one on any board should ever really reply to 95% of the time? Note: I said reply. I didn't say agree. Pchan gets things right on occasion, and when he's right he's right. That doesn't mean replying to him is a good idea the vast majority of the time.

I thought the lack of a double standard was supposed to be a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Alderin

Aside from that - people have not mentioned the massive enmity reduction you get from going /nin due to the lack of Provoke & DPS. .

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Provoke is a mediocre enmity boost lol. Aslo why don't you mention the massive amount of enmity that you don't lose due to utsusemi ? There is only one thing that matters in VoidWatch : damage taken. Procing ? What. All the gear sucks, and if you ever find something worth getting that is not AHable, well try in low man until you finally proc it. It could change in the future but right now, as well as for level 95 gear according to dat miners, nothing is worth gathering 15 ppl on regular basis to maximize the ratio stones/items. Therefore it's better to farm your own item and then quit VW. The only decent piece I saw in the dats where a pdt back for monk (yeah ! .. err nvm who cares) and you have 50% chance that it it will be from woe. The other gear that doesn't suck are cure potency gear, that are a great boost to ..rdm, and we all know that rdm is a great healer (sarcasm).

Hey Pchan, can you explain your sig to me, I don't understand what exactly you are referring to when you say "learn to test"
Are you saying 70 WS is enough? Not enough? Are you saying there is no difference between 15 and 20? What are you saying?

I think it's sad Pchan put his mule on a different SE account just so he could troll as Pchan and Monchat

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Originally Posted by Rearden

I think it's sad Pchan put his mule on a different SE account just so he could troll as Pchan and Monchat

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i don't think you were supposed to blow his cover, now he won't have a pretend freind, y u do dat???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

All the gear sucks, and if you ever find something worth getting that is not AHable, well try in low man until you finally proc it. It could change in the future but right now, as well as for level 95 gear according to dat miners, nothing is worth gathering 15 ppl on regular basis to maximize the ratio stones/items. Therefore it's better to farm your own item and then quit VW. The only decent piece I saw in the dats where a pdt back for monk (yeah ! .. err nvm who cares) and you have 50% chance that it it will be from woe. The other gear that doesn't suck are cure potency gear, that are a great boost to ..rdm, and we all know that rdm is a great healer (sarcasm).

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You said Abyssea sucked and was trash, then I saw you come back and spend 24/7 in Abyssea with 4 mule accounts between you and your friend. While I agree that the VW drops available now aren't enough motivation to get into it, post patch you're flat out wrong. There are tons of pieces that are clearly VW drops and it will be laughable to see you unable to obtain them with your only one friend and 4 mules you need to kill anything (yes, I have watched you, you never do anything without MNK THF WHM RDM BLM BRD rofl).

Not sure I understand your logic. Doing thing with 6 people is stupid yet VW is cool? Who farm seals/gems w/o BLM BRD and THF +whm+dd at least? Soloer who have no friends? You forgot to add NIN to the list for red procing.

look dont argue with pchan its like feeding a troll just let him post his hypocrisy and move along.