Merton Vs Odin: What the hell SE?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

I've yet to see a SMN use Odin lately because the novelty wore off by now. Get over it. "Oh noes a job got something good that's similar to my toy boo hoo hooo!" is the cancer that kills MMORPGs. Quit it.

---

Until Odin can do better than max 10% of the mobs health at 100% of the mob's health only, Odin will just take a back seat for Astral Flow to Alexander.

Merton looks good and useful. I wonder if they are going to have the same effect on NMs or are they going to be resisted to heck and back?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Until Odin can do better than max 10% of the mobs health at 100% of the mob's health only, Odin will just take a back seat for Astral Flow to Alexander.

Merton looks good and useful. I wonder if they are going to have the same effect on NMs or are they going to be resisted to heck and back?

---

Knowing SE, depending on the actual strength and duration of the DoT it'll likely take a very large hit or flatout resisted against NMs, probably not Requiem resisted (is Sonic Damage really that godly? >.>) but probably helix styled resistance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

Knowing SE, depending on the actual strength and duration of the DoT it'll likely take a very large hit or flatout resisted against NMs, probably not Requiem resisted (is Sonic Damage really that godly? >.>) but probably helix styled resistance.

---

If Merton is similar to helices in regards to the accuracy, I hope the duration is at least decent at least. If the duration is a decent amount of time then at least it could be elemental sealed, but if its a short duration you would have an elemental seal for the first cast and then getting resisted like crazy for the remainder of Tabula Rasa. Perhaps it won't be similar to helices or so I hope.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

I've yet to see a SMN use Odin lately because the novelty wore off by now. Get over it. "Oh noes a job got something good that's similar to my toy boo hoo hooo!" is the cancer that kills MMORPGs. Quit it.

---

Sorry for a page back bump.

If they turned around and gave WAR an A- Scythe/Greatsword Skill and all Scythe Weaponskills, You wouldn't complain or be a teeny upset?

Or if they happen to give Absorb Spells to RDM? and Dread Spikes to BLM? You'd be fine if suddenly your job had nothing unique anymore?

For the record, I don't care about the Merton complaining, The only similarities it has to Odin is that its a 2hr only and dark based, nothing more. I'm just trying to point out everyone has a weak spot when it comes to jobs.
.
The idea of being upset over Merton being a dark based nuke (which is where the similarities between it and odin in) is illogical to me, But I'd be hypocritical of me to think I might not go there if they did something similar with my favorite job, and you'd be lying to yourself if you can't say you wouldn't be upset if your favorite job lost something unique.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Sorry for a page back bump.

If they turned around and gave WAR an A- Scythe/Greatsword Skill and all Scythe Weaponskills, You wouldn't complain or be a teeny upset?

Or if they happen to give Absorb Spells to RDM? and Dread Spikes to BLM? You'd be fine if suddenly your job had nothing unique anymore?

For the record, I don't care about the Merton complaining, The only similarities it has to Odin is that its a 2hr only and dark based, nothing more. I'm just trying to point out everyone has a weak spot when it comes to jobs.
.
The idea of being upset over Merton being a dark based nuke (which is where the similarities between it and odin in) is illogical to me, But I'd be hypocritical of me to think I might not go there if they did something similar with my favorite job, and you'd be lying to yourself if you can't say you wouldn't be upset if your favorite job lost something unique.

---

Lets not forget that, because it is dark based, it will be resisted by a lot on NMs that are dark based.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Sorry for a page back bump.

If they turned around and gave WAR an A- Scythe/Greatsword Skill and all Scythe Weaponskills, You wouldn't complain or be a teeny upset?

---

Nope, because WAR is supposed to have great skill in pretty much every weapon which is why they can use almost every weapon pretty well but they don't have access to the decent Scythes that exist. WAR can use all GSD weaponskills currently except for Sickle Moon, Spinning Slash and Torcleaver and only a handful of points under an unmerited DRK (B+ versus A-).

Quote:

---

Or if they happen to give Absorb Spells to RDM? and Dread Spikes to BLM? You'd be fine if suddenly your job had nothing unique anymore?

---

Considering they won't and it's well known Absorb spells need a boost, I wouldn't complain either, because DRK has been getting the shaft since 2003 so it would be nothing new. DRK has nothing that defines it or makes it unique, Dread Spikes is great, but they'd sooner give BLM a MP recovery Spike like in XIV than they would Dread Spikes. The only time I've ever seen something unique go to another job was when the cap raised and everyone had access to things like Quick Draw and Convert. I can even gank Fan Dance, Yonin/Innin from mobs that happens to absorb it on my BLU, so it's really nothing to complain about because a lot of jobs still use their unique abilities better than it being subbed for example because chances are it can be enhanced only by the main job.

Just crying over another job that gets something and saying it takes away from a job is ridiculous and why MMORPGs die a slow painful death job balance wise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tannlore

Ah, but underwhelming additions with the cap increases is not the providence of SCH alone sir and that is the heart of the topic at hand here no?

And for the record's record: I'll take Emperor Gestahl's name for the spell: "Melton"! :D

---

I guess my intended message was "Just because a job is good does not mean it deserves crappy updates." New stuff isn't added just to balance the jobs, it's also to spice them up.

Quote:

---

Until Odin can do better than max 10% of the mobs health at 100% of the mob's health only, Odin will just take a back seat for Astral Flow to Alexander.

---

Against most of the mobs you'd use it against where it inflicts damage, the maximum is 9999, which I hit pretty often; I'm pretty sure the max is 20% not 10%; because I've done over 12000 damage to king behemoth (with bonuses and I'm pretty sure he doesn't have 100,000 HP. Odin doesn't always take a backseat, either. If you don't really need alexander, then you may as well use Odin, since chances are good it will do more damage than the other 2hours with less fuss.

Quote:

---

Just crying over another job that gets something and saying it takes away from a job is ridiculous and why MMORPGs die a slow painful death job balance wise.

---

I disagree. Giving no job anything unique and, as such, dishing out anything considered "unique traits" to every job is what would kill a game. If there's no unique aspects to any job, there's no reason to level any job but the one that does it the best. You'll lose more people that way.

One person in a thousand might level a job anyway for fun, but even for them (you) the fun would eventually wear off.

I can't say i believe you when you say you'd be perfectly content with your favorite job becoming absolutely worthless because it slowly lost all of its unique traits, But I have no way to prove it otherwise. So i must accept it. However i will remain skeptical.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

I've yet to see a SMN use Odin lately because the novelty wore off by now. Get over it. "Oh noes a job got something good that's similar to my toy boo hoo hooo!" is the cancer that kills MMORPGs. Quit it.

---

Novelty is not gone, but they might as well have given this Merlot spell to Santa. SCH don't exist either.

Dallas....why?

Why do you have to come to a thread and crap it up with your personal musing that nobody wants to hear, and is also completely false? I know you are being sarcastic, but damn man, you don't even need to be here. The topic is not melee SMN, so why do you feel like you have to chime in on this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I disagree. Giving no job anything unique and, as such, dishing out anything considered "unique traits" to every job is what would kill a game. If there's no unique aspects to any job, there's no reason to level any job but the one that does it the best. You'll lose more people that way.

One person in a thousand might level a job anyway for fun, but even for them (you) the fun would eventually wear off.

I can't say i believe you when you say you'd be perfectly content with your favorite job becoming absolutely worthless because it slowly lost all of its unique traits, But I have no way to prove it otherwise. So i must accept it. However i will remain skeptical.

---

My favorite job is Corsair which already lost it's unique ability however it's still best used by Corsairs. Didn't summoners already lose their unique trait and abilities? I'm pretty sure since 2002 I could sub summoner and cast avatars, that's unique to the job.

What kills games is when one job gets something and someone else complains they want the same or better, they then get its and another job complains they want the same or even better then they suddenly start a tug-o-war of balance and why XI was one of the few MMOs that actually had decent job balance, because games like WoW their company always caved into the pressure and some jobs go from useful to near worthless every other patch because of players crying over spilled milk.

I must have missed this somewhere, but where was it said that this would be a 2HR ability?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demonicpagan

I must have missed this somewhere, but where was it said that this would be a 2HR ability?

---

In the manifesto, a spell/ability only usable under the effect of Tabula Rasa.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

My favorite job is Corsair which already lost it's unique ability however it's still best used by Corsairs. Didn't summoners already lose their unique trait and abilities? I'm pretty sure since 2002 I could sub summoner and cast avatars, that's unique to the job.

What kills games is when one job gets something and someone else complains they want the same or better, they then get its and another job complains they want the same or even better then they suddenly start a tug-o-war of balance and why XI was one of the few MMOs that actually had decent job balance, because games like WoW their company always caved into the pressure and some jobs go from useful to near worthless every other patch because of players crying over spilled milk.

---

If we can learn one thing, Its the Devs feel they know whats best for each job, and our kicking our feet is never going to change their opinion or their plans for those jobs. Don't get me wrong, They listen to us on a lot of things, and I'm truly grateful.

But, i feel Its pretty much like this, They have a list of all the things they're giving each job from now, to 99, and nothing is changing that, and they won't add to it. This is my opinion, So don't worry there!

Though, truly, I would stop playing this game if no job had anything truly unique, it would be boring as hell, I might as well be playing Dynasty Warriors if i wanted to pick up a game where everyone had the same stuff. Uniqueness is what makes choosing different classes fun, and playing those different jobs.

Anyway, Carry on :)

(Don't get me wrong, Fking love Dynasty Warrior games >_> just using it as an example)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

In the manifesto, a spell/ability only usable under the effect of Tabula Rasa.

---

It was said in the manifesto, but did we see the scholar use Tabula Rasa during the video? I'm okay with it either way, my SCH will get the spell and cast it happily regardless. However, unless you've seen come actual confirmation that this is the spell that activates through use of 2hr don't jump too far into it. Though this would be the spell to do that with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tannlore

It was said in the manifesto, but did we see the scholar use Tabula Rasa during the video? I'm okay with it either way, my SCH will get the spell and cast it happily regardless. However, unless you've seen come actual confirmation that this is the spell that activates through use of 2hr don't jump too far into it. Though this would be the spell to do that with.

---

Yep it was used in the video.

don't you worry guys, once more people get hvergelmir they'll show us how sick SMN melee DPS is and they won't even need 2 hours

I happy for SCH for Merton, if it is indeed superior to a summoners 2hour/Odin, then Odin needs an adjustment on how its used, or some other mean of adjustment not said yet.

I would really like to hear something on this matter from the devs though between Merton/Odin please.

This is not Q.Q. this is just simple feedback.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coldbrand

don't you worry guys, once more people get hvergelmir they'll show us how sick SMN melee DPS is and they won't even need 2 hours

---

Better watch out, Dallas might actually take you sarcastic remark seriously and think that he is God again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soundwave

I happy for SCH for Merton, if it is indeed superior to a summoners 2hour/Odin, then Odin needs an adjustment on how its used, or some other mean of adjustment not said yet.

I would really like to hear something on this matter from the devs though between Merton/Odin please.

This is not Q.Q. this is just simple feedback.

---

It is QQ. I guess if and when (seems more like when) BLM gets Death we'll have SMNs QQing that Odin is simply a 2hr and not a consistent being.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

Yep it was used in the video.

---

Ah so! I missed that. Still cool and not hard to get refreshed in Abyssea at least. ISL.... go!

I'm sorry, this spell can only be casted under the effect of SCH's 2 hour?

p.s. Also Odin is Frontcone attack Merton is AoE around target?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soundwave

I'm sorry, this spell can only be casted under the effect of SCH's 2 hour?

p.s. Also Odin is Frontcone attack Merton is AoE around target?

---

Yep, they stated we're getting something specific under Tabula Rasa, this is it. What isn't known is the resistance rates versus things like NMs let alone requirements beyond Tabula Rasa, since it's not new if it's a rare/ex scroll from some quest, or if god forbid it get tossed into magians somehow.

Elexia, it is not about some other job getting the same ability, it is about someone getting a three times as good ability.

When using Odin you roughly have 100% chance to kill first mob, 50% to kill second, 25% to kill third, 12% to kill fourth, 6% to kill fifth... (exaggerated, but spot on that you'll rarely ever kill 5 monsters). In this SCH just uses its JA's and killed 10.

Average 3 monsters vs 10... 3 times the killing power. That is the issue. You can even have all my avatars on SCH, I won't care. But they better not do triple damage when used by a SCH, that will upset my balance senses. (These are like spider senses)


I've got SCH leveled myself. I haven't noticed anything negative with it at all, except that I can't sleep while main healing since I'll be in light arts mode. It is a lot of fun, I just don't have the energy to equip it well so I'm a gimp. I've actually not parsed it, but I think my gimp SCH can out-DD my maxed out SMN. Some chance of death there though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elexia

Yep, they stated we're getting something specific under Tabula Rasa, this is it. What isn't known is the resistance rates versus things like NMs let alone requirements beyond Tabula Rasa, since it's not new if it's a rare/ex scroll from some quest, or if god forbid it get tossed into magians somehow.

---

Thanks, that being said I don't know why people think this thread is for complaining the OP is just asking SE to re-look at Odin if deemed necessary.

I to would like SE to reevaluate Odin and his uses. If sch can preform Odin task better I'm happy for them however Please revamp Odin.:cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malamasala

Elexia, it is not about some other job getting the same ability, it is about someone getting a three times as good ability.

When using Odin you roughly have 100% chance to kill first mob, 50% to kill second, 25% to kill third, 12% to kill fourth, 6% to kill fifth... (exaggerated, but spot on that you'll rarely ever kill 5 monsters). In this SCH just uses its JA's and killed 10.

Average 3 monsters vs 10... 3 times the killing power. That is the issue. You can even have all my avatars on SCH, I won't care. But they better not do triple damage when used by a SCH, that will upset my balance senses. (These are like spider senses)


I've got SCH leveled myself. I haven't noticed anything negative with it at all, except that I can't sleep while main healing since I'll be in light arts mode. It is a lot of fun, I just don't have the energy to equip it well so I'm a gimp. I've actually not parsed it, but I think my gimp SCH can out-DD my maxed out SMN. Some chance of death there though.

---

Just stop typing. You don't know the difference between damage and an enfeeble, and how resist rates effect both of them differently. Yes, Death is an enfeeble, since it is cast on the mob and doesn't do damage, but instead it gives the mob a status effect (Mob receives the effect of KO). Stop trying to convince people that you know what you are talking about when you make a post like this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malamasala

Elexia, it is not about some other job getting the same ability, it is about someone getting a three times as good ability.

When using Odin you roughly have 100% chance to kill first mob, 50% to kill second, 25% to kill third, 12% to kill fourth, 6% to kill fifth... (exaggerated, but spot on that you'll rarely ever kill 5 monsters). In this SCH just uses its JA's and killed 10.

Average 3 monsters vs 10... 3 times the killing power. That is the issue. You can even have all my avatars on SCH, I won't care. But they better not do triple damage when used by a SCH, that will upset my balance senses. (These are like spider senses)


I've got SCH leveled myself. I haven't noticed anything negative with it at all, except that I can't sleep while main healing since I'll be in light arts mode. It is a lot of fun, I just don't have the energy to equip it well so I'm a gimp. I've actually not parsed it, but I think my gimp SCH can out-DD my maxed out SMN. Some chance of death there though.

---

It didn't use a JA, it used it's 2 hour, just like SMN has to. No one knows anything about this spell beyond that it's powerful and leaves a DoT. We don't know the resist rates, we don't know the MP cost, we don't know what affects it's accuracy yet, we don't know how to obtain it etc.

Everything is balanced, in order to get Odin you have to be decently far in the ToAU storyline if not complete, then as you said, there's accuracy issues given that 1 mob is almost always guaranteed, while groups it goes down in accuracy. That's balance.

I've seen BLMs solo the worm camp including megamaw and no one is crying foul >.>.

btw, the first hit isn't 100% death, there has been a lot of times where the first hit missed but the other hits actually killed the mobs.

Also, there has been times where, when using Zantentsuken on one mob, it still missed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

btw, the first hit isn't 100% death, there has been a lot of times where the first hit missed but the other hits actually killed the mobs.

Also, there has been times where, when using Zantentsuken on one mob, it still missed.

---

How much MP did that person have?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soundwave

How much MP did that person have?

---

I had 100% MP (just got 2hr chest and Zantentsuken only hit one mob and still wiffed).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

I had 100% MP (just got 2hr chest and Zantentsuken only hit one mob and still wiffed).

---

Eeeek><; I dunno what to say to that. Was Odin wearing a blindfold?:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soundwave

Eeeek><; I dunno what to say to that. Was Odin wearing a blindfold?:rolleyes:

---

I've had this happen on single mobs too. 100% MP, 454 smn skill, oodles os avatar acc/magic acc gear... anything to try and help....swing and a miss!

Maybe the mob did a /kneel motion and we didn't know? :D

haha, nice!

Comparing Odin to Merton is like comparing apples to oranges. They are cosmetically similar (both need two-hour, both are darkness-based) but have incredibly different mechanics. (Odin is a low chance of death, Merton is single-target direct-damage with a DoT that can be converted to AoE with Manifestation.) Yes, Odin should be improved for both normal monsters and NMs, but Merton isn't the Dev Team giving a SMN ability to another job.

If they gave SCH the ability to cast Death with Tabula Rasa, allowed it to be used with Manifestation, and it didn't have terrible magic accuracy, then yes SMNs would have the right to be miffed about it. But if this makes you mad, you should also be mad at BLMs for having AoE nukes that they can cast that don't require their two-hours. And if that makes you mad, you probably need therapy.

The other thing that I noticed in this thread is that people are talking about Abyssea as if it is still going to be the focus of the game after this next update. I love Abyssea, but Abyssea is over- for better or for worse the new focus of the game is now Voidwatch.

Again I don't think "most" people are q.q'ing.....they are just saying SE can you please look at Odin?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soundwave

Again I don't think "most" people are q.q'ing.....they are just saying SE can you please look at Odin?

---

Then do so without griping about others.

I agree that Odin needs some work but that has nothing to do with SCH. Shiva has been the clearly superior choice for aoe killing in Abyssea for a long time anyway. BLU, BLM and WAR are better as well inside of Abyssea. Outside of Abyssea, you'd probably better of using Alexander in most cases.

I don't think Merton and Odin are really all that similar. We also know absolutely nothing about that spell. It looks powerful? Buy the SCH in the video was decked out. She was in Abyssea so might have had atmas and the mobs were not high level. We know nothing about the accuracy, mp cost, recast time or dot effect.

I was and am still more curious about Brave because I think SCH will get more use out of it. I'm very wary that the would give us a truly powerful and useful nuke.

Great animation though!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

Just stop typing. You don't know the difference between damage and an enfeeble, and how resist rates effect both of them differently. Yes, Death is an enfeeble, since it is cast on the mob and doesn't do damage, but instead it gives the mob a status effect (Mob receives the effect of KO). Stop trying to convince people that you know what you are talking about when you make a post like this.

---

So let me get this straight. You are claiming that Death is a NORMAL enfeeble, and that if you pull 100 monsters, 50 will die? Because I, who am a very dumb Summoner who shouldn't post, were under the impression SE coded the attack to have less success the more targets were in range.

Quote:

---

The accuracy of this ability is dependent on the number of targets within range.

---

Wiki on the other hand seem to agree with me.

Bringing me back to my point. SCH is getting some kind of unrestricted AOE death ball move, and SMN has a restricted target number attack.

Naturally I'm not saying SCH can't get this, it is rather that the SMN restriction should be removed if they do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Septimus

Comparing Odin to Merton is like comparing apples to oranges. They are cosmetically similar (both need two-hour, both are darkness-based) but have incredibly different mechanics. (Odin is a low chance of death, Merton is single-target direct-damage with a DoT that can be converted to AoE with Manifestation.) Yes, Odin should be improved for both normal monsters and NMs, but Merton isn't the Dev Team giving a SMN ability to another job.

If they gave SCH the ability to cast Death with Tabula Rasa, allowed it to be used with Manifestation, and it didn't have terrible magic accuracy, then yes SMNs would have the right to be miffed about it. But if this makes you mad, you should also be mad at BLMs for having AoE nukes that they can cast that don't require their two-hours. And if that makes you mad, you probably need therapy.

The other thing that I noticed in this thread is that people are talking about Abyssea as if it is still going to be the focus of the game after this next update. I love Abyssea, but Abyssea is over- for better or for worse the new focus of the game is now Voidwatch.

---

Voidwatch..that thing mostly no one does beyond Japanese? Because it's basically a glorified R.N.G with a slight challenge? Sorry but Abyssea is here to stay, especially if you want to level beyond 90 lol.

Not to mention the stagger system introduced with Abyssea seems to be appearing everywhere....so...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ank

Then do so without griping about others.

---

Griping about others, very good.