Job Manifesto discussion RE: Summoner

Only thing I care about...

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A new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.

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Can we have more information on how this JA will work? How much MP will this consume for how much of a shorter recast time?

I just hope SE thinks that JA through. There are so many things they can do wrong.

1. Limited to 1 BP only... it will be like if BLMs had to wait 10 years to get Elemental Seal suddenly, claiming "it will fix the job so it can nuke harder".
- The only way to get this JA to do what it should do, is to give an effect that lasts multiple pacts.

2. Tack on a too high cost for too little gain. We already have 100 MP cost on mana cede, which is extreme. We also have 25% damage loss on favors, which again is extreme. One could almost fear SE is going to take 100 MP and reduce timer by 5 seconds with the JA.
- Instead the way it functions should be based on time reduced. Like say 5 MP per second you use the pact too early. That means 20 seconds early = 100 MP cost. 40 seconds early (after waiting only 5 seconds from last pact) it would cost 200 MP.

3. Some kind of roll-ja, that has 5 seconds recast, and each time we use it we reduce timer with 5 seconds and lose 50 MP.
- Apart from again showing a too high MP cost, this would just be annoying when we have to spam a new JA to reduce our desired amount of blood pact delay. It simply will not work with a JA that we need to press dozens of times. (Even if I want a more active job)

I also think it is already a bit unfair that SE pretty much says "Hey SAM, here have 10% haste on a JA" and then goes "Oh SMN, if you want 10 seconds reduction to your attacks, you'll have to pay MP for it.". I don't see why SAM, WAR, DRK, DRG and all other melee jobs keep getting "only bonus JA" while SMN always gets "Penalty JA". If I didn't know better, I'd say SMN is more about sacrifice something to gain something, than DRK ever was.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

The first one doesn't make sense because we already have Avatar Favor, which works in conjunction with 'weakening' our avatar. The second is just lazy. I have a macro that summons the spirit, changes my gear to siphon gear, siphons, changes my gear back, and releases, all in ONE macro. And no, I am not using windower or third party tools.

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The first one I never mentioned Avatars Favor. The goal with the first one is to reflect the idea of MP management. While an avatar is out, without hindering its use of how we use ES as of now. I only stated get 1/2 MP back just for a ball park figure and the fact I think it may be a bit imba if we can have an avatar out and ES for full MP...its just an idea for your quoted "lazy"

however, the only MP management things we have are ES and Blood Boon. I didn't think it would be to far fetch to see more of this MP management situations going on.

In regards to Avatars favor, yes they need to ungimp the -stats to avatars...its very unnecessary

As for the 2nd one is mainly for solo play and it very much mirrors my idea from the first. Sure the skill for this is less difficult to the player to execute, but I don't find it any harder than what we normally do for Siphon....if a player is having a hard time switching between Avatar/spirit for ES then we have a problem.

I think you could of left out the "I have a macro for this" I would hope you do have macros for ES. So the easy response to this is "I have one as well.?" Hotdog I don't use widower as well?

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In regards to Avatars favor, yes they need to ungimp the -stats to avatars...its very unnecessary

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Yea, it shouldn't give -stats. Instead there should be another mode you can activate for +stats for dealing more damage, but not getting the favors bonus and -perpetuation.

The hell. Do you people seriously not understand what Avatar's favor does?

It's a stance. It's a tradeoff. You trade getting a benefit of an aura and less MP spent on the avatar for a weaker avatar. If you take away the weaker avatar part, then the whole thing becomes pointless. Everyone would just have Avatar's Favor on the entire time.

I swear you people have never heard of balance before in your lives. Why don't you give Avatar's siphon? Because then spirits would be even more pointless than they were before. Why don't you take away the negatives of favor? Because then no one would ever not use favor.

Stop spouting vomit from your mouths for a second and realize what balance is.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

It's a stance. It's a tradeoff..

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Indeed it is, with the current gear as of now Avatars Favor side effects are irreverent to MP Refresh for a summoner...so in my eyes.....

"Whats the point of -Status effects"

When we all know that it is for a "Stance trade off." The game has moved on and it needs to have "some" type of update to please the player base.

Please step off your high horse, and take a breath and respond with more respectful post, if you don't agree just say it, don't have to get all nasty as stated in from the OP.

And Korpg ruins another thread.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

Indeed it is, with the current gear as of now Avatars Favor side effects are irreverent to MP Refresh for a summoner...so in my eyes.....

"Whats the point of -Status effects"

When we all know that it is for a "Stance trade off." The game has moved on and it needs to have "some" type of update to please the player base.

Please step off your high horse, and take a breath and respond with more respectful post, if you don't agree just say it, don't have to get all nasty as stated in from the OP.

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Even if the -mp is irrelevant, the stat boosts are not. It's not a high horse, it's common sense. If you can't understand the concept of 'sacrifice one thing to get another', then you don't know anything about game design.

And clearly you don't.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

the stat boosts are not.

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Your just grasping at straws man, as for game design why not take your criticism/comments...start your own company and make your own perfect game?

Anyways

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

Your just grasping at straws man, as for game design why not take your criticism/comments...start your own company and make your own perfect game?

Anyways

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Because risk reward is grasping at straws. Tradeoffs are grasping at straws.

Hell, let's look at it your way. Let's get rid of the negatives on it. But why stop there? Let's get rid of perp cost all together under favor. Let's set the BP recast time to 0. Let's give avatars +200 stats.

I don't care how many times I need to say this: You have no idea how game design works. You have no idea what balance is. You have horrible ideas.

And for the record, your "go start your own company" is pathetic. One does not need to publish a 'perfect' game to be able to understand one. Much like a film critic need not have directed. Keep amusing me though.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Hell, let's look at it your way. Let's get rid of the negatives on it. But why stop there? Let's get rid of perp cost all together under favor. Let's set the BP recast time to 0. Let's give avatars +200 stats..

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Now your just getting a bit ridiculousness, your just another internet tough guy.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

Indeed it is, with the current gear as of now Avatars Favor side effects are irreverent to MP Refresh for a summoner...so in my eyes.....

"Whats the point of -Status effects"

When we all know that it is for a "Stance trade off." The game has moved on and it needs to have "some" type of update to please the player base.

Please step off your high horse, and take a breath and respond with more respectful post, if you don't agree just say it, don't have to get all nasty as stated in from the OP.

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I agree with being more respectful. IMO it's not ok to be disrespectful to someone because they don't agree with you. Your ideas are interesting you don't need to make it personal. Also, I find it hard to take someone serious who spends so much time saying other folks don't understand the game or how it works. I would be more likely to try out something someone who "don't know the game than someone talking down to others all the time". Maybe folks don't mean any harm but some of us don't like it. Remember that old saying you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Mewing Lullaby, Any thoughts for TP drain on mobs....will SE gimp it or drain all TP?

I really interested in what people are thinking of Cait Sith current abilities, that will soon be used in battle.

P.S. Thanks Neonii:cool:

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

Now your just getting a bit ridiculousness, your just another internet tough guy.

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I'm making as much sense as you do.

Explain to me why people would choose to not use Avatar's Favor full time if you took away the negatives.

And Neonii, I'm not here to be nice or make friends. I'm here to try to talk some sense into the people who are flooding SE with questions and suggestions that they should be beat in the head for. Yeah, I'm not nice, but I sure as hell am right.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

I'm making as much sense as you do.

Explain to me why people would choose to not use Avatar's Favor full time if you took away the negatives.

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Sorry man, I'm done with Avatars favor. Thanks though.

Any thoughts on Mewing Lullaby?

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

Sorry man, I'm done with Avatars favor. Thanks though.

Any thoughts on Mewing Lullaby?

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Glad to know you gave up.

I'm trying not to fight with you in case you did not notice? So please be mature...give it a rest.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

I'm making as much sense as you do.

Explain to me why people would choose to not use Avatar's Favor full time if you took away the negatives.

And Neonii, I'm not here to be nice or make friends. I'm here to try to talk some sense into the people who are flooding SE with questions and suggestions that they should be beat in the head for. Yeah, I'm not nice, but I sure as hell am right.

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I'm not trying to be the thought police. However, I believe in manners and respecting others ideas even if I don't agree with them. Maybe it's just me.

Sure I agree, some people sprout ideas and that is how the ball gets rolling. The idea does not have to be 100% solid. which you quoted "I do not know anything about game balance", of course I don't I'm no programer. I don't know how to make a perfect game world.

I'm a customer and I would hope they welcome all ideas...does not mean they need to listen to what exactly have to say.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

Sure I agree, some people sprout ideas and that is how the ball gets rolling. The idea does not have to be 100% solid. which you quoted "I do not know anything about game balance", of course I don't I'm no programer. I don't know how to make a perfect game world.

I'm a customer and I would hope they welcome all ideas...does not mean they need to listen to what exactly have to say.

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Hum maybe they should remove favor altogether and let it be a native trait. I don't see why smn should not have something overpowered=p. ;)

I just want my CAT! I wanna see what she can do! haha!

In my own post in the summoner job section on updating avatars and spirits lvl 1~ 99, I mention what I thought was the truly amazing thing about a summoner's avatar when compared to blackmages and redmages.

What WAS truly amazing about avatar was their access to elemental nukes(tier II and IV) nearly 10 or more lvls earlier then blackmages. Also, their wards to -aga things like enthunder and spikes. More specifically, ALL avatar received these elemental nukes at the same time. So while everyone is anticipating Ramuh's new bloodpact, I personally wish to see a tier VI nuke for ALL avatar at lvl 99. Or, at the very least a Ancient Magic ~aga.

Sadly, since Avatars don't have BLM skill, their nukes are horribly underpowered.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Sadly, since Avatars don't have BLM skill, their nukes are horribly underpowered.

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They are BLMs, and have the same traits as a BLM. The potency of for example 75 merit pacts is same as 75 merit AM. The difference is that SE gives BLM unlimited MAB armors. The good old 15% or whatever damage bonus elemental staffs is also hard to compete with on avatars.

BLM and SMN naked would probably deal similar damage. If that is any valid example.

Glad that Avatars don't have BLM's skills, being able to reach high steady damage without almost no effort even with gear is great; there is a fine selection of MAB gear to increase that damage.

I'm just referring to 75 pacts.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

I just want my CAT! I wanna see what she can do! haha!

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What he said. I have to admit I am intrigued about what she will actually look like floating behind the summoner. Maybe we will do a double take when we first see her with a mithra summoner. I keep can picture her walking around with the smn more like a fellow graphic than floating in the air. Either way should be interesting. Anyway back to the topic.

Posting this here as well in hopes SE does not screw up the new SMN JA for recast timers.

Please give this some thought SE in the quote below, thank you.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...28SMN%29/page3

few questions are good...the whole thing is a bit weak though.....I'm surprised nothing was said about spirits, even though I don't care to much for them, however I'd like to see an adjustment...whether we get that or not It won't hurt us as a job.

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If it resets the BP timers...the MP used better take a balanced portion from the time that's left from your recast timer.

Just an Exampleeeeeeessss:

I would like to see the new JA work along these examples

Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 60 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ 60*2=120 MP
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 50 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ 50*2=100 MP
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 40 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ 40*2=80 MP
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 30 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ 30*2=60 MP
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 20 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ 20*2=40 MP
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 10 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ 10*2=20 MP

[SIZE="5"]Yes Please[/SIZE]

I would not want the new JA to work like this

Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 60 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ Fixed MP 100
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 50 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ Fixed MP 100
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 40 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ Fixed MP 100
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 30 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ Fixed MP 100
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 20 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ Fixed MP 100
Timer - Blood Pact: Rage 10 Seconds left/ Use new JA/ Fixed MP 100

[SIZE="5"]No Thanks[/SIZE]

Will be total crap if it is only a fixed amount of MP, this will feel along the lines of when BP's used to activate when a mob ran out of range. The penalty will be x amount of MP lost if you activate the new JA when the recast is like @ 2 seconds left by accident. I hope this is not the case.

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I'm not looking for people to flame this example "Its only an example." I'm looking for collaboration in the right direction for this JA.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

Posting this here as well in hopes SE does not screw up the new SMN JA for recast timers.

Please give this some thought SE in the quote below, thank you.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...28SMN%29/page3

few questions are good...the whole thing is a bit weak though.....I'm surprised nothing was said about spirits, even though I don't care to much for them, however I'd like to see an adjustment...whether we get that or not It won't hurt us as a job.



I'm not looking for people to flame this example "Its only an example." I'm looking for collaboration in the right direction for this JA.

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The ability working from a fixed fee is a terrible idea, unless it's a fixed reduction to delay. Like a stance that when active grants -15 sec BP delay for an increase of 30-50MP per BP.

I like your yes please example, and it fits in really well with SE's stated vision of managing our MP.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

The ability working from a fixed fee is a terrible idea, unless it's a fixed reduction to delay. Like a stance that when active grants -15 sec BP delay for an increase of 30-50MP per BP.

I like your yes please example, and it fits in really well with SE's stated vision of managing our MP.

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I have a feeling it will be like Avatar's Favor that it costs MP per tick to lower the BP down.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

I have a feeling it will be like Avatar's Favor that it costs MP per tick to lower the BP down.

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As long as -perp gear could counter it, I'd be ok with that.

First off, thanks for all the opinions thus far, and we wanted to let you know that we passed them to the supervisor in charge of the upcoming changes and had him take a look.

Please understand that we cannot answer all of your questions in one post and some answers may be vague, because this is all content that is still under development.

Please bear with us as we will continue posting about this and other jobs!

※I believe there are a lot of players who are interested in the effects and duration of “Blood Pact” so I plan on addressing it in the follow-up post. (I understand that some of you may be disappointed about this, but please be a little patient!)

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Please provide specific details on the effects of “a new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.”

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For example, we are thinking about something like, “reset the recast time by expending a set amount of MP.” As we have stated in the threads for other jobs, this is just one example.

There is a possibility of the effects being changed drastically, so please keep posting your feedback.

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I would like Blood Pacts to be changed to the charge format.

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This would drastically change the operation of Blood Pacts, so we have no plans of making this change. We plan on adjusting the timing of Blood Pacts by adding an ability that shortens the recast time.

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Is it possible to interlock the avatar’s attacks with the summoner’s weapon skills (as in Wyvern’s breath)?

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Being able to issue commands to avatars is a unique advantage for summoners, so it is best to initiate avatar attacks through the summoner’s commands.

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I would like the pet command “Stay” to be added.

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We have no plans to add the “Stay” command outside of beastmasters.

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I would like unique stats added to each avatar, such as increased attack for Ifrit and increased evasion for Garuda.

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By implementing different stats for each avatar, we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited. There is a possibility of being able to alter the stats of avatars by equipping gear, but basically we would like avatars to be chosen based on their elements.

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I would like En/Spike effects added to avatars.

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This might be good. We will think about this.

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I would like the elemental resistances that avatars have to been given to party members.

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This is pretty similar to Avatar’s Favor. What about adding this effect through merit points?

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Any possibility you can enhance the Evoker’s Ring?

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If you have to surpass a challenging quest, then we will look into it. Simply just enhancing it would be a bit hard to justify.

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Let summoners use the weapon skills for staff that can only be used by specific jobs/support jobs.

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We understand how you feel. We received similar requests for other jobs/weapon skills and we will be looking into it.

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If you have to surpass a challenging quest, then we will look into it. Simply just enhancing it would be a bit hard to justify.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th....-BONUS-ITEMS!

You're welcome D:

(And thank you :) )

Thanks for the info Camate, some of what you said is intriguing. I think we'll all be patient a little longer after your post. Looking forward to more detail on the new BP delay ability.

Please PLEASE fix these three things about Avatar AI.

1. Avatars should not ever auto attack sleeping mobs.
2. Avatars should have a larger radius in which a Summoner can use the Assault command and not have the Avatar not listen.
3. If a Blood Pact is used on a mob and it dies before the Blood Pact can go off, please reset the Blood Pact timer.

That's all I ask.

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Originally Posted by Tarage

Please PLEASE fix these three things about Avatar AI.

1. Avatars should not ever auto attack sleeping mobs.
2. Avatars should have a larger radius in which a Summoner can use the Assault command and not have the Avatar not listen.
3. If a Blood Pact is used on a mob and it dies before the Blood Pact can go off, please reset the Blood Pact timer.

That's all I ask.

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Please please please PLEASE ignore the first one of the 3 listed here.

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※I believe there are a lot of players who are interested in the effects and duration of “Blood Pact” so I plan on addressing it in the follow-up post. (I understand that some of you may be disappointed about this, but please be a little patient!)

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I was not expecting a follow up, I'm very thank for for this when it comes.

Thank you for the info so far.

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I would like the elemental resistances that avatars have to been given to party members.
This is pretty similar to Avatar’s Favor. What about adding this effect through merit points?

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I like this idea, please make it possible when/if upgraded though merits it does all avatars and not a single avatar.

I feel that this is only group 1 Category worthy and would make group 3 category seem like just icing on the cake for summoner, if that's what your referring to.

Examplessssss

Group 1 (Upgrade to 15 Total)
Avatar Phys. Accuracy
Avatar Physical Attack
Avatar Mag. Accuracy
Avatar Magical Attack
Elemental MP Cost
**New** Avatar Favor Elemental Resist

Group 2
Meteor Strike
Heavenly Strike
Wind Blade
Geocrush
Thunderstorm
Grand Fall

Group 3
Something new?!

or........

Group 1
Avatar Phys. Accuracy
Avatar Physical Attack
Avatar Mag. Accuracy
Avatar Magical Attack
Elemental MP Cost

Group 2
Meteor Strike
Heavenly Strike
Wind Blade
Geocrush
Thunderstorm
Grand Fall

Group 3
**New** Avatar Favor Elemental Resist

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Originally Posted by Camate

We understand how you feel. We received similar requests for other jobs/weapon skills and we will be looking into it.

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Deathga win! LOL. Did anyone re-suggest AOE BPs? Does a SMN no good to get WS that target more mobs than the pet...

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If you have to surpass a challenging quest, then we will look into it.

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I like this idea. In this case though, I would rather it be a shorter but somewhat harder quest (compared to the original).

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This would drastically change the operation of Blood Pacts, so we have no plans of making this change.

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Does the dev team realize how weak the summons are overall? A summoner that puts on some "melee" gear with a good weapon can easily outdamage the avatars right now. This shouldn't happen. The avatars should be strong enough that no summoner should feel like they have to do that.

I really don't see how adding say, a 2 charge system would drastically change the operation of blood pacts. If you have 2 charges each with the usual recast, you're not using more blood pacts, you're just using them with better timing. I ilke the idea of more ways to reduce the delay, but I hope SE realizes- FFXI is much "faster" than it was years ago. 1 min (reducable to 45 sec) between abilities is now an eternity in this game.

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Originally Posted by Camate

By implementing different stats for each avatar, we are afraid certain avatars will be selected disproportionately frequently and the variance of avatars will be limited. There is a possibility of being able to alter the stats of avatars by equipping gear, but basically we would like avatars to be chosen based on their elements.

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You have to know that this never happens anyway. Elemental properties of the Avatars don't matter outside of what? Merit Blood Pacts?
Even when fighting monsters that have specific elemental attacks/resistance we basically just use Garuda for Predator Claws or Shiva for Heavenly Strike (since everything on Vana'diel seems to hate ice but very few exceptions).
If you want us to use ALL of our Avatars give us a reason to. Add elemental resistance auras when they're out, enhance their resistance against their opposite element, give them unique abilities based on their element.
And no, Avatar's Favor is not what we're looking for. Considering the radius of the Favor, the need for the Avatar to stay close to the mob to execute a rage BP AND the negative effects it has on the Avatar's strenght.. it's just a free -Perpetuation tool for kiting.

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Originally Posted by Camate

This is pretty similar to Avatar’s Favor. What about adding this effect through merit points?

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Just don't make it part of Avatar's Favor >>;

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I would like En/Spike effects added to avatars.

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Good but again don't make it part of Avatar's Favor.

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Originally Posted by Camate

If you have to surpass a challenging quest, then we will look into it. Simply just enhancing it would be a bit hard to justify.

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I'd gladly take that. I loved all the quests involving Summoner!

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For example, we are thinking about something like, “reset the recast time by expending a set amount of MP.” As we have stated in the threads for other jobs, this is just one example.

There is a possibility of the effects being changed drastically, so please keep posting your feedback.

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Since the devs have stated clearly they don't want for whatever reason to do a charge system (which I personally feel is absolutely required in the age of FFXI post-75), then this ability will need to be used exceptionally frequently. As such, what are the ideas for the recast time of this mp->bp delay ability? Furthermore, SE must understand that the lack of a being able to reduce the BP time to below 45 seconds is the single biggest hindrance to this job as a whole, so this ability MUST be relatively powerful.

There is no mention of the level this JA would be obtained, nor what the ratio of mp:bp- would be. I personally feel that BP time is a fundamental flaw in SMN mechanics, so this JA should be introduced early, such as Level 50 (the first level which cannot be obtained using /SMN).

The MP requirement is not listed either, I can't imagine you would be happy letting a Level 50 expend 100MP to reset, as well as a Level 90 expend 100MP, but whatever scaling system is used it has to be extremely reasonable.

In summary, the level of the ability must be low (e.g. 50) , since BP time is a fundamental flaw in the Summoner job. The ratio of time:mp must be reasonable (at maximum 100 MP, so I figure 2MP:1sec). The recast time must be non-existent, it should be ready for the next time I want to BP. Remember, the whole idea behind this is speed which a long recast timer would destroy this potentially good JA.