So there's only 5 jobs that work now?

As an aspiring PUP who wants to "be useful" in the new endgame activities...could you explain to me what my role could be in Voidwatch? I'm having a tough time convincing my LS leaders of my value and it really sucks :(

Still has a spot in voidwatch.

Automoton has its own proc for weakness in voidwatch to build lights. Im not sure but I dont believe you can simply /pup like you can /mnk for mnk JA triggers.

Could just have a PUP go PUP/MNK and cover JA + h2h procs.

I don't mean to be rude because I really wanna go do Voidwatch on my PUP (Just finished getting AF3 seals for all pieces, not to just farm those darn feet! :( ) but it kind of sounds like you haven't used PUP in Voidwatch...could you be more specific or maybe give me a brief layout to portray to my LS leaders? ^^;

If you haven't done Voidwatch, just think Abyssea except the procs are basically a huge pool of skills. The goal is to hit as many triggers as possible before killing the mob if you desire to see any drops.

For instance, you might get a prompt calling for an automaton weaponskill as a weakness. You'd then have to use weaponskills till you hit the proc. It could be any WS on any frame.

I don't believe Voidwatch has garnered enough interest to actually find out if only certain WSs trigger so for now you'd just have to operate under the assumption that it could be anything.

Lucky for you, there is no timing element in Abyssea so you are free to try so long as the mob has HP.

Puppetmaster JAs can also be a proc, Ventriloquy to be exact. You could cover a majority of h2h WS triggers in addition to PUP JAs and automaton weaponskills.

It is one of the few events where you actually need a wide variety of classes because you don't want to end up with a situation where you cannot hit any staggers due to lack of job variety.

Pretty much what Sparthos said.

Substitute DNC for SMN and yeah pretty much. I wouldn't say those are the only jobs that work, but they're the best ones. After that there are some jobs that are at least worth putting equipment on, but I'd say that currently there are more jobs than ever that can barely even be taken out in public.

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Having every job have a purpose and use in every single event

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I'm not asking that every job be equally beneficial at all events, however all jobs should have an overall roughly equal value as a whole when considering all events and activities together. Its fine for jobs to be better in some events than others, but when your job is only wanted for one or two things, and even then for only one out of many things that your job provides, there's a problem.

Warriors and monks are generally useful for everything. White mages are generally useful for everything. BLM are generally useful for everything Bards are generally useful for everything. The most popular DDs are generally useful whenever physical damage is needed. Summoner is generally *wanted* (not to say its not good for anything else) for 1 out of 12 of its 2 hour abilities, and little else. PUP can be lumped in with the DDs, but isn't the number one performer, so it gets tossed to the wayside. DRK gets tossed to the wayside and none of what it offers that is unique is especially desired. PLD has been tossed to the wayside in favor of the best DDs doing the tanking. Thief is generally not wanted outside of treasure hunter. DNC and SCH are mostly fine, though no one really goes "OMG there's a DNC or SCH, get him!"

So what we have here is about 25% of all jobs that are generally desired for a group or linkshell; probably 50% that aren't universally sought after but are probably fine the way they are, and 25% that are generally left in the dust and not regarded as useful for very many things. Some jobs will always be wanted more than others, but this gap could be closed a little bit (And statistically, it has closed a little bit recently, according to the Census, with the top few jobs having a smaller % share, and the bottom 3 jobs all having a larger % share).

Summoners, outside of one ability in a few specific situations, do not stand out for any event, and probably have the shortest end of the stick out of all jobs right now (Probably, thief is right behind it, because people I know only want it for treasure hunter and not really for anything else it does)

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

If you haven't done Voidwatch, just think Abyssea except the procs are basically a huge pool of skills. The goal is to hit as many triggers as possible before killing the mob if you desire to see any drops.

(...)

I don't believe Voidwatch has garnered enough interest to actually find out if only certain WSs trigger so for now you'd just have to operate under the assumption that it could be anything.

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I hope that either a, we don't figure out all of the specific triggers, or b, there are so many that it really is a large pool like we currently speculate. It's nice thinking that there's an event where any job could be helpful.

I hope Voidwatch gets some worth-while drops.

Inb4 Empyrean upgrades to 95 come from Voidwatch, while the event itself still drops situational goodness, and otherwise crap.

all JOBS are useful, not all PLAYERS are. level what feels good, put some polish on your playskill, develop a style that works for you. Good players will find you, bad players will continue to be stuck in the corner they've paited themselves into... screwed when they need the help of your chosen job and they don't HAVE one in their closed group.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

all JOBS are useful, not all PLAYERS are. level what feels good, put some polish on your playskill, develop a style that works for you. Good players will find you, bad players will continue to be stuck in the corner they've paited themselves into... screwed when they need the help of your chosen job and they don't HAVE one in their closed group.

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What happens when GOOD players play GOOD jobs?

if a player can't make ANY job good then they aren't a GOOD player...

When good players play good jobs it cancels out.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

if a player can't make ANY job good then they aren't a GOOD player...

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Ok I agree, any job can be "good"

Not any job can be the best though. That's just irrefutable.

I think the more experience you get from playing a job, the better you get at it.

I should probably mention, even if it is late, that when I referred to zergs and SMN not being useful, it was all the fights where all you need is soul voice. I've done this on for example Einherjar bosses, KV, Kirin (though it could perhaps help with Alexander there).

Alexander is of course useful for the more rarer fights, like AV or PW.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Ok I agree, any job can be "good"

Not any job can be the best though. That's just irrefutable.

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problem is, define "best". different jobs do different things. Throw out the Atmas and their game balance destroying nature and just get down to a job-to-job comparisson. Nukers, ok, that's blm and noone is likely to even try to Refute that. Party support-I vote bard, but some may argue corsair and technically even whm and rdm deserve to be in that discussion. Enfeeblers-I still vote rdm, but I know a few blues that would like to have a word with me. I split DD, Single strike DD I would say Sam, with dark and 'goon right there behind them; damage by accumulation is monk, although thief and dancer can come VERY close. Tanking-sorry folks, without the Atma I still say it's pally. Ranged damage, obviously ranger. Pet jobs, I still say beast, but barely considering pup's range of damage (beast doesn't even have a magic damaging pet, unless they charm a hecteyes or a worm) and summoner can use avatars that are immune to damage types, exploit elemental weakness and get a new pet without spending thousands on a new jug but in the absence of Atma charm is back, making this a different story.

Then you have the issues of being "1-trick ponies". Many jobs are awesome... in the right fight. Once you take them out of that comfort zone they are gonna be screaming for help. SE has put in many battles that do just that. Nins hold themselves out as great tanks, but there are fights where your shadows are done in about1-2 seconds and without them nin doesn't take damage very well, conversely pld can take a hit better than anybody but some mobs can 1-shot with that hit which is where nin shines. Think of all the fights where you keep the DD off entirely, using just a tank and all your DD coming from nukers/ranged attack-there's a reason a War isn't in there. I remember all the folks calling me for help on bard when they fought soulflayers because rdm Dispel always failed (and the blues were usually to close meleeing, so para'd themselves). The list goes on...

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Then again, some of us don't enjoy being chameleons who mindlessly follow the trendy elite and the talking points that come from their foghorn-like mouths. Some of us play various jobs for our own enjoyment and not to be one of the "cool kids".

To the thread starter, any of the 20 jobs can be fully functional if you're committed to making it so. Take the ramblings of so-called "experts" with a Stonehenge-sized grain of salt.

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But if you happen to have a "useless" job you enjoy prepare to do solo stuff. You won't be getting invites to be in the action. I'd say have a fun job you enjoy but also have a utility/work job to get invites (whm is nice for this in Abyssea in particular).

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

damage by accumulation is monk, although thief and dancer can come VERY close.

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Stopped reading after that

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Real life application:

What do you think would look better on your resume?

1 main that you're REALLY good at, but isn't applicable for the job at hand
or
I'm capable of doing this, but I'm only using it to further my main.

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I agree with this but I find it very sad. What it comes down to to is spending your fun/leisure time playing an applicable job at the expense of one you really enjoy and have fun on. IMO this kinda changes the game into work instead of play. That begs the question why would anyone want to have fun on a game? They could be playing a applicable (work) job instead.

Edit: The game design itself should be balanced as to where sure you spend some time on a work job (pay your dues) but also be able to play your fun job in a meaningful way. My last online game was designed with different ways to reach an objective with different jobs. Players were not boxed into playing work jobs all the time because we could design a strategy which included our fun job. FFx1 is very different from my last online game in that aspect.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

if a player can't make ANY job good then they aren't a GOOD player...

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So there's only 5 jobs that work now?--- the question here is there are only 5 jobs that are useful now, not "good"

No matter how awesome of a non war or nin you are, you lack red procs and you are generally holding your low man group back on efficiency.

The funneling down to ~5 job trend isn't because they're the only good jobs, they're just the BEST at farming. Thanks to how abyssea procs are, dealing damage is not the issue. So I don't care how much damage a Drk can put out, you're still usually waiting on red proc to get KI from certain NMs, or yellow proc on other NMs. You're penalized for having more than a couple people on a mob as well, it becomes very difficult to proc when the mob is TP spamming. So you're better off low-manning, and there are just a few jobs that make the most efficient group lowman.

This is a big reason I haven't really bothered making an almace yet. I freakin love playing blue mage, and I don't want to be forced to play another job to farm pop sets solo. I can deal with playing other jobs in a group once in awhile, but I dont want to solo 25-40ish pop sets on ninja for a sword I want on blue mage..... even though I CAN solo the NMs on blue mage, red proccing as Blue mage is lacking.


This abyssea proc system frustrates me to no end..... In the old days you might be forced to play Blm or Smn on wyrms to get gear for other jobs. Now in abyssea most geared DDs could blood tank NMs and dish out great damage if they wanted to. So now that SE made it so you can KILL things without a specific group easier, they added procs that now make you choose between crappy drops/crappy KI rate and playing jobs you may not want to. Right when imbalance was about to be fixed they made it worse than it was before...... and I from the looks of dynamis/voidwatch the proc system is here to stay....joy

RDMs have a place still if they have Phalanx II and v2 enfeebles. Refresh II is also pretty nice for the mana-consuming classes like SMN and BLM. It leaves little else though for RDMs to do at endgame since Cure IV generates a huge amount of enmity even with enmity reducing atmas.

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Originally Posted by Felren

So there's only 5 jobs that work now?--- the question here is there are only 5 jobs that are useful now, not "good"

No matter how awesome of a non war or nin you are, you lack red procs and you are generally holding your low man group back on efficiency.

The funneling down to ~5 job trend isn't because they're the only good jobs, they're just the BEST at farming. Thanks to how abyssea procs are, dealing damage is not the issue. So I don't care how much damage a Drk can put out, you're still usually waiting on red proc to get KI from certain NMs, or yellow proc on other NMs. You're penalized for having more than a couple people on a mob as well, it becomes very difficult to proc when the mob is TP spamming. So you're better off low-manning, and there are just a few jobs that make the most efficient group lowman.

This is a big reason I haven't really bothered making an almace yet. I freakin love playing blue mage, and I don't want to be forced to play another job to farm pop sets solo. I can deal with playing other jobs in a group once in awhile, but I dont want to solo 25-40ish pop sets on ninja for a sword I want on blue mage..... even though I CAN solo the NMs on blue mage, red proccing as Blue mage is lacking.


This abyssea proc system frustrates me to no end..... In the old days you might be forced to play Blm or Smn on wyrms to get gear for other jobs. Now in abyssea most geared DDs could blood tank NMs and dish out great damage if they wanted to. So now that SE made it so you can KILL things without a specific group easier, they added procs that now make you choose between crappy drops/crappy KI rate and playing jobs you may not want to. Right when imbalance was about to be fixed they made it worse than it was before...... and I from the looks of dynamis/voidwatch the proc system is here to stay....joy

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A day in the life of this Summoner:
It's like this work all day get home do chores. Now I can log on and am usually asked to play whm which I don't like as well but can tolerate. If all goes well I can collect things for smn while playing whm. Now maybe just maybe I can solo on smn which to me is pure fun. The ratio of playtime spent leans heavy toward whm vs. smn, but hey i'm practical. I just wish more if my time at events ect could be spent on smn. The lore and aspects of smn fascinate me. IMO the motivation to play an online game (or any game) is fun, and leisure. Being boxed into whm or some other " useful" job 90% of the time detracts from that IMO.

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Originally Posted by Neonii

But if you happen to have a "useless" job you enjoy prepare to do solo stuff. You won't be getting invites to be in the action. I'd say have a fun job you enjoy but also have a utility/work job to get invites (whm is nice for this in Abyssea in particular).

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I will just channel the discontents and say "it really shouldn't be that way, as it negates player choice". Yes, I'm aware the game has been purposely designed like that, but it doesn't make it any less wrong.

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Originally Posted by Neonii

If all goes well I can collect things for smn while playing whm. Now maybe just maybe I can solo on smn which to me is pure fun. The ratio of playtime spent leans heavy toward whm vs. smn, but hey i'm practical.

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There's jobs you get gear for, and jobs you get gear with.

Job balances not withstanding, some of this is just linkshell's recruitment policies.

Myself, I had a policy that everyone had to have a mage job of some kind, or had to be able to participate in a manaburn. It was just more efficient. An ideal player had both a mage job and a melee job, so as to split limbus zones. I couldn't count the number of Thieves who needed Homam, but the only job they had... was Thief.

I'm going to say it again. This is fact.

Point 1)
1 NM drops 3 of one particular +2 item, and 1 of 3 other +2 items. That's 1~6 per fight.
Bring 18 people to a fight, that's 1 person getting 1 thing per THREE fights.
Bring 6 people to a fight, that's 1 person getting something every fight.

Point 2)
You need BLM BLU BRD NIN to successfully get yellow
You need WHM to survive
You need WAR and NIN to get red
If you don't have these jobs you have a larger chance of wasting your time.

Thus is the nature of Abyssea. You can't just waltz on in and get something with PUP DRK DRK RDM SCH, though it's possible, but it would just be such a waste of time in comparison to having the ideal set up IN ABYSSEA.

Honestly BST is awesome if you like killing zone bosses, ironclades, and soloing your AF3+1/+2 for various jobs (not just bst).

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Originally Posted by Laitha

Honestly BST is awesome if you like killing zone bosses, ironclades, and soloing your AF3+1/+2 for various jobs (not just bst).

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Eh, inefficiently. It can do it, solo, but in the end it would take longer than shouting for a pick up group

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Originally Posted by Rearden

Stopped reading after that

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you can read?

You are forgetting thf for drops.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

You are forgetting thf for drops.

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Which can be replaced by RNG w/Bounty Shot or a BST with Dipper Yuly.

or anyone /THF, considering the insignificant/unnoticeable difference between TH2, and TH12

Exactly.

I haven't seen SE show so much contempt for a class since BST.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Exactly.

I haven't seen SE show so much contempt for a class since BST.

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SE has been updated to be more of a whole job ever since Abyssea. The playerbase has compensated for this however, I've never felt more hatred for the job from other players than I do now.

Not because it's a strong job mind you. But because people love to talk about it in terms of inefficiency and inconvenience to everybody else.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

all JOBS are useful, not all PLAYERS are. level what feels good, put some polish on your playskill, develop a style that works for you. Good players will find you, bad players will continue to be stuck in the corner they've paited themselves into... screwed when they need the help of your chosen job and they don't HAVE one in their closed group.

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A novice player will not get the experience with a given event to figure out what they need to do to shine as an unfavored job if they never get the opportunity to go to that event because they only have unfavored jobs.

That and I know back at 75 my endgame LS absolutely cried when a BST refused to do anything with us when we "got stuck in a corner". The problem is it's not a constant cycle of best melee/mage. It was RDM/BLM/RNG/BRD/WAR for the first few years then WHM/RDM/SAM/WAR/BRD for the rest. Also, no, abyssea doesn't count given ANY job can duo the content with a mage. You couldn't low man some of the old events without some of SE's favorite jobs being on board.

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Originally Posted by separated

Just starting again, after about a year break, and it seems (from reading the forums) that mnk, nin, war, whm, and smn are the only ones that people seem to say are worth while now.

I know abys. is out now, and i've not had a chance to experience it, but from what it seems if you arn't worth while there you arn't worth while any where.


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Heres one for the record:


Beastmaster is da best cause no other job can call beast so ya lol(placeallotherjobshereplease)

End of the record.


The above was for humorous purposes only. Dont call your mom and complain

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Originally Posted by Felren

No matter how awesome of a non war or nin you are, you lack red procs and you are generally holding your low man group back on efficiency.

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Empy weapons, the only items in Abyssea that will survive to 99, don't need practically any procs. They need amber light, pearl light, and /THF. There will come a day when people are sad they spent so long waiting for that guy to switch to BLU for procs.

Emp weapons, without a WAR and NIN in party, can only go about half as fast as just having amber light.

Being able to claim and red for the KI you need to fill the holes in your Amber farming speeds things up significantly.

Tahrongi Canyon, probably the most desired Empyrean Weapon zone has 8 KI all used to spawn Emp NMs, and an addition 2 that are dropped from the Emp NMs. That means you have a low chance of getting the last KI you need from a chest. Usually you will find it faster to just pop/camp the NM you need to fill in the hole, in which case you still need both NIN and WAR.

Not to mention WAR is by far the best DD in the game (even outside Abyssea). NIN is probably the third best inside abyssea also, and it has tons of utility outside of DD and red too; you need it during slashing for blue and you need, at the least, /nin for yellow. It can also tank 90% of Abyssea NMs.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Summoners, outside of one ability in a few specific situations, do not stand out for any event, and probably have the shortest end of the stick out of all jobs right now (Probably, thief is right behind it, because people I know only want it for treasure hunter and not really for anything else it does)

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PLD and COR would like a word with you. Being useful for one thing is much better than being useful for zero things, because people will sometimes still let you get drops when you're only there for one thing.

Aside from the OP leaving out BLM (nobody wants to do anything without BLM), they're basically correct. It's hard to believe SE wouldn't have known exactly what they were doing when they made half the yellow spells for 7/8 days of the week available to BLM, and half of those BLM-exclusive, while jobs like RDM and SCH have no job-exclusive yellow proc spells whatsoever and thus, add nothing to a group that has BLM (which, like I said, everyone does).

I'm prepared to cut them some slack on healing -- they may genuinely not have expected 0-mitigation "tanks" that need constant cure v/vi bombing to live to become so popular and reduce non-whm healers to "not really a healer at all". (It's here now and they'd better have a plan to deal with it, though. The overwhelming power of DDs in abyssea forces them to dominate the hate rankings whether they want to or not, so if it's even possible to keep them alive, ipso facto, they are the new tanks and pld is useless junk, a relic of a game where it was possible to control enmity by some way other than dealing more damage.)