[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM Suggestions

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Originally Posted by Rayik

You said that's what you fight, so I was just asking. If you share a group with that many empy's, just think what you could do with an Almace, it would be pretty awesome.

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Almace wouldn't change anything.

Seems like it. THF is a horrible example, though. People have THFs melee even if the TP feed is a pain in the butt because TH is awesome. Step 1 should be more like:

"Is your Summoner, White Mage, or Bard melee'ing?"

White Mage is a stronger melee, Bard is about equal to Red Mage, and Summoner is significantly weaker as a melee but good luck telling some of them that.

Puppetmaster, Blue Mage, and Thief are all stronger melees than Red Mage (PUP by a lot), and Blu/Thf both have unique utility reasons to be melee'ing.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Seems like it. THF is a horrible example, though. People have THFs melee even if the TP feed is a pain in the butt because TH is awesome. Step 1 should be more like:

"Is your Summoner, White Mage, or Bard melee'ing?"

White Mage is a stronger melee, Bard is about equal to Red Mage, and Summoner is significantly weaker as a melee but good luck telling some of them that.

Puppetmaster, Blue Mage, and Thief are all stronger melees than Red Mage (PUP by a lot), and Blu/Thf both have unique utility reasons to be melee'ing.

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You are absolutely correct, which brings us back to page 1. WHM should not be a stronger melee than RDM, period. But they are, so we'd like a fix.

I've already gone through the explanation for that in another thread. White Mage is a stronger melee because the Devs, when designing each job, had the foresight not to leave any job defenseless or without basic offensive/defensive options for when they are alone and absolutely need to fight.

Pure-healing and pure-support classes like Bard and White Mage were given melee gear and proficiency because they did not have offensive magic or any other way of defending themselves in a pinch.

As far as max capabilities go? A relic Whm and an Empyrean Rdm are probably not far apart on the melee scale. White Mages who actually melee simply tend to be better geared on average than Red Mages who do so. If as many White Mages wanted to melee as Red Mages, I'm sure their average melee proficiency as a community would plummet.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Seems like it. THF is a horrible example, though. People have THFs melee even if the TP feed is a pain in the butt because TH is awesome. Step 1 should be more like:

"Is your Summoner, White Mage, or Bard melee'ing?"

White Mage is a stronger melee, Bard is about equal to Red Mage, and Summoner is significantly weaker as a melee but good luck telling some of them that.

Puppetmaster, Blue Mage, and Thief are all stronger melees than Red Mage (PUP by a lot), and Blu/Thf both have unique utility reasons to be melee'ing.

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No actually, Thf and Blu are the perfect examples for the exact reason why I'm pushing for a Utility in the front lines, Guardian.

Collect the points together. I said that Red Mage would require a utility to explain the areas in which it would be allowed to melee. This was what I was referring to. The power of the utility of course would dictate what mobs a Red Mage was allowed on, of course, but it would expand it beyond what you would constered the current accepted state.

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Originally Posted by Doombringer

i think he means all 3. like a checklist. if any 1 is no, you abort mission.

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I'm glad someone is getting the point at least. Yes.

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"Is your Summoner, White Mage, or Bard melee'ing?"

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Negative slight acknowledged.

While I have no qualms about White Mage having the ability to club someone to death occasionally, we should not be in this grouping, period. If you feel as if we should, then there needs to be an adjustment made to the job class to compensate. This is where my request for a utility comes into play again.

What I do currently to function in that utility is dedicated skillchain opening. It's a dated function, yes, and other jobs can do it better. But there is really a difference between being able to do so, and choosing to do so. Most players do not. For Red Mage it is the best use of the TP they gain. They can open 3/4 Tier 3 sections before touching a relic/mythic/emperian. Including those weapons into the calculation then can open/close ALL tier 3 combination as well as both Light on Light and Darkness on Darkness.

Considering some of the numbers melee's these days are pushing, these are fairly large spikes in damage (more with classes that get skillchain bonus.) Higher spikes than we can assist with in nukes, factoring in our DoT. Not to mention that if you really want to push for spike damage, we can push our own Burst accuracy bonus.

This tactic works very well in short term fights, especially if you've got TP built up beforehand.

What's missing in this is the utility to justify the TPing itself. As you said, BLU and THF both have niche's that do.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Seems like it. THF is a horrible example, though. People have THFs melee even if the TP feed is a pain in the butt because TH is awesome. Step 1 should be more like:

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It is and isn't, something people tend to overlook is RNG's Bounty Shot ability. While it has a one minute timer it does build off a THF's TH effect with a reasonable rate of success (personally 30-40% success rate per try). They have their pros and cons of course, but ideally it would be optimal to have both in those situations. A THF can just go in land the initial TH only going in to proc/WS, while a RNG fires off Bounty Shot every minute building on that from afar while reducing overall TP feed.

Or the thf could do the same thing with SA/TA timers 2x as fast, meaning you can drop the rng.

Yeah.... hence why I said they each had their pros and cons. A THF would still have to get up there in AoE/Conal range even if it was a run in/out situation, and there shouldn't even be an argument about the asinine amount of TP THF's are known to give. A RNG on the other hand can just shoot off their JA from afar without worry about feeding a mob any TP or being hit by any AoE's, the drawback is RNG does not get nearly as much TH as THF does initially so it would be slow to start the group off, hence why I said it would be optimal to have both in those situations.

THF runs in>TA>runs around>SA>runs out. Very little TP feed there.

And a swing and a miss.

If your not in the fray your not building TH reliably, if your in the fray building TH reliably your feeding it assloads of TP, which is the whole point of my statement. The TH built off Bounty shot is roughly the same rate of success as a THF full time meleeing on a mob (Both raising TH about the same rate in a span of time). Even if it takes 2-4 Bounty Shots to raise the TH up a level, a THF is not going to have the same percentage of success raising TH outside of luck just going in every half min to SATA.

And like always you overlook the bigger picture, you still have the added benefit of a THF and RNG BOTH building TH on a mob, even if the THF is just running in and out.

Do you kill slow or something? TH shouldn't get that high unless you A)Kill slow or B)get lucky with procs. I think it is you have has missed the swing!

Well do you always go in with a full alliance, with multiple jobs for each trigger, and/or each player wielding their own Empy Weapon? Or do you just outright kill without getting any triggers? Last I checked even the most seasoned players can have a miserable day with triggers, which can delay the rate of the monster being killed, but that's besides the point. Most groups pickup and otherwise kill the monster after all the triggers have been done, by which the ideal times to build TH are when people are looking for triggers, which means limit TP feed/DoT on a mob so it does not die or spam nasty WS's before the triggers are found.

I really think it's nice that your arguments always seem to have some hole in them, where you try to argue one point and seemingly throw the other logical considerations out the window, even consider the overall flow of the battle as a whole, or treat every situation as though it were the same.

And I'm sorry you have such a difficult time getting a high TH build on any mob before it dies. Obviously the THF's or RNG's you play as/with should ante up, and I dunno "Suck Less".

We get red for KI NMs, then kill it. If somebody wants seals we'll get yellow(depending on the mob) otherwise we proc red and then kill. We usually take between 7-9 people in(granted sometimes half of those are dualboxed) abyssea. NIN NIN(both kannagi) whm(usually me) whm(dualboxed) emp brd, blm and sometimes cor(sometimes me or if we have 2 mule whms) and then a mule war for red procs+thf for TH. This is for apademak of course, and sometimes we don't even have a brd at all. I can assure you the last thing my group needs to do is "suck less" as you claimed, that's your job because you obviously need the TH so bad you bring a RNG and a THF(and granted thf does it much faster and usually by the time you get TH9 the mob is dead so why bring rng unless they are just extra?).

I really hate to be the one to bring this up but...what happened to the original purpose of this thread? It seems to have changed back to so many of the bickering threads I have read throughout these forums. It may be too much to ask, but can we get back on topic please?

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Originally Posted by Reiokyu

I really hate to be the one to bring this up but...what happened to the original purpose of this thread? It seems to have changed back to so many of the bickering threads I have read throughout these forums. It may be too much to ask, but can we get back on topic please?

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^This.

This forum has turned into a trolling flamefest. What happened to just being nice, ignoring dumb comments and moving on with it. If the person you are attacking is wrong, then let them be wrong >.>

About my "Composure: Grants Double Attack" idea, you wouldn't be doing this on HNMs. Seriously lol. The double attack would just be more of a TP feed. I am just saying, we are fighter-mages, we SHOULD get better melee traits.

And yes RDM should get Cure 5 back. Even outside of Abyssea Cure 4 is pretty lackluster and wont always save a life ; ; RDM Cure V wont destroy WHM; we don't get Cureskin OR as much Cure potency.

I'm not sure if most people even remember this far back, but RDM didn't just lose Cure V out of nowhere. They traded it for Dia 3, which used to be a WHM-exclusive non-merit spell. I play both, and I'd be totally fine with Rdm getting Cure V if Whm got Dia 3 back. Whm's active support options are actually extremely limited compared to Rdm (specializing in passive support over active support). It'd be pretty neat.

Traded it for Dia III? Group II merits didn't even exist by the time FFXI hit the States, and Cure V was gone by then. If I recall correctly, it was more like RDM had been listed on it in the DATs much like we see WHM for Addle, but the cap at the time hadn't reached that point when the game was JP only. Its poofing coincided with the slight bump in sword skill and moving Enfeebling up to A+. We also apparently lost Marksmanship, which seems like a strange holdover if you look to a past Bastok Campaign unit, but I'm kinda willing to let an aesthetic slide there given the whole Musketeer theme.

95% certain that Red Mage had Cure V still after NA release. If not, d'oh. But both spells caused a fair amount of uproar from the communities. White Mages were especially pissed since they definitely had access to Dia 3 for a while and then lost it when G2s were implemented.

I'm also 99% positive that my ye olde Bradyguide still lists RDM as having Cure V and Flash as late as 2004, though that thing has always been lulzworthy. I can go back and scour some update notes if it matters.

Cure V and Flash for RDM were traded for Refresh

Can't say it does since we've gone far, far, far longer without than it just suddenly poofing like SE made an oopsie.

Actually, Brady guide has RDM having dia3 cure V and flash lol

The past of Cure V and Flash is kind of irrelevant in this case.

Flash we'll never get back. It's a tanking tool and they want RDM to be devoid of those.

Cure V however, as the levels continue to rise there's really no reason 'not' to have it except to solidifiy WHM's place as the best healer in the game.

However, I do believe the primary concerns against it isn't competition with white mage so much as competition within the Roles Red Mage can play. They want to be primarily enhancing/enfeebling/support, not 'main healer.' Problem is there's not enough support spells and workable debuffs to fill that role against Cure V. And if they do, then add Cure V, then there might be actual party conflict issues in situations when a hefty helping of cure isn't needed to the degree a WHM offers. They'll just try to pile it all on RDM so they can have another DD on the team.

If a Red Mage can do it all, and it improves the group's total strength by making room for another DD or support class (brd, dnc, cor, w/e), I'm all for it. It's not like mage jobs are supposed to be easy. White Mage is still a way better healer and has better passive support spells, so it's not like they'd lose their niche.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

The past of Cure V and Flash is kind of irrelevant in this case.

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Was more of a "oh hey i have a brady guide let me check!" kind of situation.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Was more of a "oh hey i have a brady guide let me check!" kind of situation.

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Pretty much this. I wish I still had mine. It lost its cover and like the first 15 pages due to wear and tear, then got stolen when my house was broken into a few years back. Like, who the hell steals a beaten up ffxi bradyguide?

On topic, Rdm should totally get Flash back too so that they can make use of their awesome native Divine skill.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

However, I do believe the primary concerns against it isn't competition with white mage so much as competition within the Roles Red Mage can play. They want to be primarily enhancing/enfeebling/support, not 'main healer.' Problem is there's not enough support spells and workable debuffs to fill that role against Cure V. And if they do, then add Cure V, then there might be actual party conflict issues in situations when a hefty helping of cure isn't needed to the degree a WHM offers. They'll just try to pile it all on RDM so they can have another DD on the team.

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In other words, its ToAU all over again. I could easily see happening if we were given Cure V. Once we stray out of Abyssea Cure IV would have a greater impact on a players HP, we could alternate between IV and V and since RDM would still have the most efficient MP system of all the jobs it would be considered best for long drawn out parties or events.

Frankly when they had took away all those spells they gave RDM originally they had good reason too. After RDM's redesign, RDM for the most part had very stagnet/limited growth in updates. Considering how powerful they were pre 76+ you could only imagine how stupid powerful they would be if they still held onto gemstones like Cure V, Flash, and Regen II back then.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If a Red Mage can do it all, and it improves the group's total strength by making room for another DD or support class (brd, dnc, cor, w/e), I'm all for it. It's not like mage jobs are supposed to be easy. White Mage is still a way better healer and has better passive support spells, so it's not like they'd lose their niche.

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I have a better idea.

How about they actually create challenging content that requires more then one job with heals per group.

I mean if your "main healer" is a hybrid that's probably your clue that the content is too easy.

I will not mind single buff that are rdm only.
I'm being a selfish red mage, I avoided ToAU pts (those pt where the evil!) and hated every time I had to cycle haste (or refresh).
Saying this, I'm waiting what SE'll give us in the updates.

Cure V would be awesome, I think: switch to MP gear -> convert -> cure V and you're full hp with only one spell and you probably use the mp in your MP gear, those you normally would not have in "buff/debuff" set. Sadly cure V will make again rdm a main healer (at least, outside abyssea). This is the main reason that I don't like the idea of having it. So yes, please SE leave cure 5 and 6 to whm :D

I don't mind in self only buff (I'm the first lady here, you cant have my awesome gain-str *evil laught*) but I understand that there are player out there who want to be helpfull in pts.
Hastega and Refresga will be really nice indeed, but smns have their hastega...
What about some buff that transform the damage dealt in an elemental damage? Not really an enspell but something similar to Formless strike. A set of spell (one for each elemental like enspell) single target like haste (I will hate them, I know, another cycle). It will be usefull in mob like jellys, highly physical resistant but it will be difficult to implement though.

What do you think about repose on rdm? It's based on divine magic skill... Will rdm be too powerful with 3 sleep spells (one of which will be less effective because of rdm's divine skill)? It's a debuff too :p

And of course, I want new debuff rawr! But your suggestions seem so cool I don't have one to compete to :p
And please SE, why I have to put at least 3 merit to make paralyze II work better than paralyze?

Please, don't be too rought in commenting what I said! I hope it make some sense (English is not my language)
Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Supersun

I have a better idea.

How about they actually create challenging content that requires more then one job with heals per group.

I mean if your "main healer" is a hybrid that's probably your clue that the content is too easy.

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It has more to do with the context of max hp and how long a person's mp pool will last.

In Abyssea where HP easily breaks 2k-3kHP a RDM's Cure IV really can't keep up when a mobs doing 2-3x what you can heal per cure. WHM's on the other hand can easily fill that void with Cure V and VI, and then fall back on Atmas for Refresh thereby giving them a never-ending supply of mp.

Outside however the gameplan changes, mp is finite and WHM's cannot be so reckless with their mp. Additionally HP pools drop to roughly half of what they are in Abyssea effectively doubling Cure IV's impact. Being RDM is still the best job at controlling MP spending they can outlast any mage on the field. This was a big thing back in the ToAU days, and why many WHM's were shafted even though they had Cure V. Giving RDM Cure V would likely cause a redux of the ToAU days, not because RDM is the better healer, but because RDM has all the mp resources to keep going for much longer periods of time.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

I have a better idea.

How about they actually create challenging content that requires more then one job with heals per group.

I mean if your "main healer" is a hybrid that's probably your clue that the content is too easy.

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Not all content can be hard. But for hard content, there's no reason to shove main healing on a Red Mage. White Mages are better, but Red Mages are still support classes (note I said Whm never lost their niche, eg hard content). There is still a huge support gap to fill, especially on hard content, despite having a White Mage.

Your language and word choices are suggesting one of two things, I'm not sure which. Either A) It's hard and/or disingenuous to allocate so much work to Red Mage, or B) Red Mage being allocated a role that requires fulltime casting is not fair because it does not allow them to melee.

If it's neither, that's fine. But in the case of A, even among harder content the Red Mage is going to be expected to do everything they were doing before. White Mage can't simply "take over" and be hunky dory. Support mages support, Red Mage is still a significantly more efficient Haster for example. The Red Mage itself is not doing less work with a White Mage there, because the content that required a White + Red mage is harder than the content where a Red Mage can do everything.

If it's a matter of Red Mage being essentially locked out of melee'ing because they're being assigned roles assuming that they are able to fulltime cast, that's just never going to change. Efficient people are always going to want to be efficient. Magic swordsmen are not efficient, and it takes a damn good one to even think about filling a full support role while melee'ing. Durable support mages with high MP efficiency are, and it's a lot harder to screw up.

Missed my point. (Or more likely I worded it poorly)

Was more a nitpick against SE and things they can do to make content more difficult but don't ever do.

I thought that's what VW was? they just screwed up by not making it very rewarding.

You can still get by with only one healer given he has enough MP/tick.

this might have already been mentioned but I saw on another thread that someone had an idea for making the buffs a rdm has aura based. This is absolutely brilliant in my opinion. Higher radius for higher enhancing skill. WIN >_> Also cure V yes please.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

this might have already been mentioned but I saw on another thread that someone had an idea for making the buffs a rdm has aura based. This is absolutely brilliant in my opinion. Higher radius for higher enhancing skill. WIN >_> Also cure V yes please.

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We also covered why it wouldn't change anything on content harder than exp mobs.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

We also covered why it wouldn't change anything on content harder than exp mobs.

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If all we are getting are aura buffs of preexisting single target spells that we already have, them yes.

Would single target spells be safer then aura spells, sure.

But that element of risk would be justification for a more powerful spells.

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Magic swordsmen are not efficient.

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Which is partially why I go bananas on the haters. The moment it IS efficient, they'll accept it. Why the dogged tooth and nail fighting takes place at times is, quite frankly, mind boggling. Coincidentally, they are also often the ones the least willing to try and make ideas work, as evidenced by Cid's shooting down of the aura idea, mainly because it's not useful in the back. Duh. The back-line game doesn't really need much help.

Magic penetration is almost as hiliarious as one of the people in here suggesting that you get native quick-cast.



Allow me to elaborate:

HAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Which is partially why I go bananas on the haters. The moment it IS efficient, they'll accept it.

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That's the problem. After all these years in anything that's considered hard to deal with where a MNK, NIN or PLD would be needed, it still isn't.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Traded it for Dia III? Group II merits didn't even exist by the time FFXI hit the States, and Cure V was gone by then. If I recall correctly, it was more like RDM had been listed on it in the DATs much like we see WHM for Addle, but the cap at the time hadn't reached that point when the game was JP only. Its poofing coincided with the slight bump in sword skill and moving Enfeebling up to A+. We also apparently lost Marksmanship, which seems like a strange holdover if you look to a past Bastok Campaign unit, but I'm kinda willing to let an aesthetic slide there given the whole Musketeer theme.

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Greatguardian is pulling sh!t out of his neither regions. RDM was originally listed as being on Cure V / Regen II / Flash and Diaga II. Dispel / Gravity / Refresh / Phalanx didn't exist. Dia I / II / Diaga was divide magic. RDM's primary subbed /WAR or /WHM. RDM had a B in enfeebling magic. "End Game" was Rok and AF quests, the Healing Staff was considered the most epic WHM item in the game. The XP from 50 to 60 was 40K+ per level, and when you died you lost 10% of the required TNL with no cap. It was nothing for people to lose 5~15K on a bad day. Ninja was speculated upon like Geomancer and Time Mage.

And the only English speaking players were those like myself who was playing as an alt on my friends account with him doing the translation for me.

RDM had issues because it was considered a WAR-1 or a WHM-1, so to give it it's own identy SE changed the Dia line to enfeebling magic (this is why we have no divine spells), gave RDM refresh, dispel, gravity and phalanx. This is why either WHM or BLM get every enfeebling magic earlier then RDM, except those two spells. Upped RDM's enfeebling magic to A+ and thus was born the "RDM is master enfeebler" idea, master of exactly two spells. We competed with BRD's for the "support role" of "refresher", basically we were invited to refresh the WHM and BLM's because MP was incredibly precious. BRD's use to b1tch because they didn't get a 3mp/tick refresh combo till after 50, while RDM got it at 41. March wasn't even though of, and haste was kinda ignored. I'm talking last 2002 here after the JP PC release (Nov 2002). My original character was made shortly after I arrived in South Korea in March 2003, my room mate was Japanese American and spoke Japanese, thus greatly enabled me to experience the game although I needed him to translate everything for me and guide me along.

Then the big news, this first expansion client and native English client, and their going to raise the cap to 75. Everyone went nuts, RDM's thought they'd finally get Cure V / Regen II / Flash and Diaga II. Except when the update came we noticed, RDM wasn't on the scrolls anymore. And there was this sudden influx of all these English speaking newbs running around messing everything up. We thought the NA client would have it's own servers, not that they would be intermixed with the already developed JP servers. Outrage ensued and thus the "JP Onry" world began. This was October 2003, I had been playing about six months but due to my status as a "second character" on my friends account it was almost all limited to XP and messing around. A few months after the NA client was released I broke down and decided to make my own Character and thus Saevel on Lakshmi was born.

And that's basically the birth of the English Speaking FFXI. Anyone who tells you they were playing in English prior to RoTZ is being very economical with the truth. You could type in English characters, but all the menu's, Item names and NPC dialog was Japanese. NA Client and RoTZ was released together, and thus unless someone was playing on a friends account, nearly no NA's have any experience with RDM's original incarnation. This also is why the Brady guide had so many errors with the spell list, they went off data SE gave them from 02/03 but before SE changed that data at Zilart release.