Ther case for -Prep as related to gear ect

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Originally Posted by Cymmina

And yet you admit that you're making 8 of them. Emp staff is at least useful in the rare situations where melee SMN is appropriate and takes a fraction of the effort to make.

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They're actually pretty useful, with the +2 I get +2MP refresh back while still being able to wear Evoker's spats and Summoner's Bracers for acc.

I dunno about you, but i'm getting 4mp/tic back on celestials and 5 for carby/fenrir/diabolos just using a Fay Crozier and a right mix of perp/refresh gear, unconditionally too (except moonshade earring)... so if all you're getting is +2 with the TotM staves, you're overgearing perp.

And if I were to get a TotM staff at the current levels of perp cost, the only avatars it'll help with is the celestials, and I only really need to get a -4 perp staff to cap perp reduction (I'm not counting the spirits cos no one really cares, or its the same cost as celestials), so its still pretty wasted because of perp caps

As for the acc thing, acc gear on hands and legs are kinda wasted on regular melee attacks. For BPs, you shouldn't need to use them because of adequate skill to cover acc, and would likely move towards damage/crit/etc. In order words, the better you are, the less you'll need those 2 pieces. I no longer ever carry Evoker Spats on me

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Originally Posted by Cymmina

And yet you admit that you're making 8 of them. Emp staff is at least useful in the rare situations where melee SMN is appropriate and takes a fraction of the effort to make.

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I didn't admit that I'm making any of them. I'm saying that if I choose to make a new staff(s), I would choose the 8 TotM because they are more useful for SMN and the party. Since you don't have to feed the mob TP in order to keep your avatar out.

On bigger stuff than EM, like anything worth killing, you don't want a SMN pretending to melee. There are too many variables in most mobs out there, both inside and outside of abyssea, that you can't have another body to heal or raise just to kill the mob.

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Originally Posted by Arciel

I dunno about you, but i'm getting 4mp/tic back on celestials and 5 for carby/fenrir/diabolos just using a Fay Crozier and a right mix of perp/refresh gear, unconditionally too (except moonshade earring)... so if all you're getting is +2 with the TotM staves, you're overgearing perp.

And if I were to get a TotM staff at the current levels of perp cost, the only avatars it'll help with is the celestials, and I only really need to get a -4 perp staff to cap perp reduction (I'm not counting the spirits cos no one really cares, or its the same cost as celestials), so its still pretty wasted because of perp caps

As for the acc thing, acc gear on hands and legs are kinda wasted on regular melee attacks. For BPs, you shouldn't need to use them because of adequate skill to cover acc, and would likely move towards damage/crit/etc. In order words, the better you are, the less you'll need those 2 pieces. I no longer ever carry Evoker Spats on me

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I get +2 atm with my mix of perp/refresh gear(working on moonshade and horn +2 atm). I'm not over gearing perp(except maybe Carby, who is free with +2 feet and mitts), my point was if you get a big chunk off -perp on the weapon you can wear other gear that isn't perp, that possibly may boost Avatar performance. I BP in 420+ SMN mag skill with full acc merits, and still see the occasional wiff on NMs so +28 acc isn't something I would consider useless. When I find acc a non-issue and some other gear to full time I'll drop the spats, but the extra acc is still nice regardless and why would I wear it anyway when I've capped -perp with hands/feety slots free.

hmm in that case then you're not optimally geared for perp/refresh. There are really only 3 pieces of refresh gear to aim for...
the horn +2, moonshade earring and stearc subligar. I kid you not on the subligar. It's ugly but it does the job well (and is way easier to get and ultimately more useful than auger's brais), because really, those are the limiting factors in terms of obtaining a strong refresh set.

I do get what you mean by freeing other slots from perp, but those are very limited options.
Even with a Nirvana (90) and its -7 perp, all it frees up for you is 2 gear slots if you gear for optimal refresh upon perp, which are either
1) hands and ring, of which ring has no real alternative options. (keep feet and body on)
2) feet (keep body, hands and ring)

This is of course assuming Celestials. with Fenrir, it could free up hands and feet and allow you to tack on 1 more tic of refresh from Serpentes. On Carbuncle, 2 more tics with a refresh body included. Both are massive independent MP gain playstyles that can be considered for various situations.

In the end, given the current perp cost level, it depends on whether you feel the flexibility in gear options afforded by a higher perp staff are worth the effort. I'm personally of the opinion that they do not, because I believe avatar damage is primarily BP based and when I BP its not in perp gear anyway.

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Originally Posted by Arciel

hmm in that case then you're not optimally geared for perp/refresh. There are really only 3 pieces of refresh gear to aim for...
the horn +2, moonshade earring and stearc subligar. I kid you not on the subligar. It's ugly but it does the job well (and is way easier to get and ultimately more useful than auger's brais), because really, those are the limiting factors in terms of obtaining a strong refresh set.

I do get what you mean by freeing other slots from perp, but those are very limited options.
Even with a Nirvana (90) and its -7 perp, all it frees up for you is 2 gear slots if you gear for optimal refresh upon perp, which are either
1) hands and ring, of which ring has no real alternative options. (keep feet and body on)
2) feet (keep body, hands and ring)

This is of course assuming Celestials. with Fenrir, it could free up hands and feet and allow you to tack on 1 more tic of refresh from Serpentes. On Carbuncle, 2 more tics with a refresh body included. Both are massive independent MP gain playstyles that can be considered for various situations.

In the end, given the current perp cost level, it depends on whether you feel the flexibility in gear options afforded by a higher perp staff are worth the effort. I'm personally of the opinion that they do not, because I believe avatar damage is primarily BP based and when I BP its not in perp gear anyway.

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I see your point, and am working toword horn and earring. SE has been adding gear that could have idle applications if you can max out - perp with these slots free, the Serpentes set is a good example. I can see the use of it now, and who knows what they'll add in the next updates. At the moment the benefits may be a little limited vs. the effort required but that may change.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

On bigger stuff than EM, like anything worth killing, you don't want a SMN pretending to melee.

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Psst, I think SMN graduated to VT mobs in 2006. You aren't going to learn anything about it hanging around people who need a thread devoted to stacking -perp gear.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Psst, I think SMN graduated to VT mobs in 2006. You aren't going to learn anything about it hanging around people who need a thread devoted to stacking -perp gear.

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Oh wow, you are on VT mobs now? With a party/alliance still? On mobs that take less than 30 seconds to kill, with or without you?

Someone tell the WAR what year it is, please.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Psst, I think SMN graduated to VT mobs in 2006. You aren't going to learn anything about it hanging around people who need a thread devoted to stacking -perp gear.

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If you remember reading the OP, they only needed one because someone was derailing it into a melee SMN argument.

but srsly tho, I am shocked at how little some SMN know about proper perp gearing. I never thought this thread was necessary until now. Like, even you know perp math better than them, and I think that says something.

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Originally Posted by Arciel

If you remember reading the OP, they only needed one because someone was derailing it into a melee SMN argument.

but srsly tho, I am shocked at how little some SMN know about proper perp gearing. I never thought this thread was necessary until now. Like, even you know perp math better than them, and I think that says something.

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He doesn't like to read anything that isn't a compliment:D. As for other SMNs not knowing perp math.... I blame the parents.

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Originally Posted by Arciel

If you remember reading the OP, they only needed one because someone was derailing it into a melee SMN argument.

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Yes, every argument ever started is the fault of someone. I think it's a rule you place the blame on the person who disagrees with you. I simply thought about melee SMN and this thread descended into higher math hell. That's how good I am.

:cool:

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Yes, every argument ever started is the fault of someone. I think it's a rule you place the blame on the person who disagrees with you. I simply thought about melee SMN and this thread descended into higher math hell. That's how good I am.

:cool:

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Dallas the only thing you did here was try to pretend you're the only one without MP issues anymore, we get it you like to melee. Guess what? No one cares, go for it. It's not like we'd ever play together so it wouldn't matter, just stop pretending like it's the only way to keep up MP.

Yes, this thread is for you. Not trying to knock elementary SMN discovery. Once you get brave enough to use ST on trash mobs, you might be interested in learning what else SMN can wear.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Yes, this thread is for you. Not trying to knock elementary SMN discovery. Once you get brave enough to use ST on trash mobs, you might be interested in learning what else SMN can wear.

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Everyone melees on trash mobs, I know this will come as a shock but you didn't invent mage melee. I'm well aware of gear SMN can wear both useful and useless, this includes all that haste/enmity- gear you love.

You got to realize that anything that a melee SMN can fight, so can those who don't choose the melee. But beyond that, the SMNs who either have the avatars only on the mobs (avatars TPing on the mobs) or just there for hateless, TP free damage can do a lot more than those who choose to melee only.

Those who want to melee, go ahead. But you have to realize, if you noob it up and melee on anything harder than a T mob, or NM, you run the risk of getting kicked from your party/linkshell from feeding too much TP.

There is no way you melee on 99% of the game Raz, or staff would be capped. It took me a week tops, and most of the time I was working on magian trials on EP.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

There is no way you melee on 99% of the game Raz, or staff would be capped. It took me a week tops, and most of the time I was working on magian trials on EP.

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When the hell did I say I melee 99% of the game?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

There is no way you melee on 99% of the game Raz, or staff would be capped. It took me a week tops, and most of the time I was working on magian trials on EP.

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Wait, I thought you had that emp staff. You working on your Perp- gear because you finally figured out how bad your melee setup is...finally?

Raz, 99% of the game is trash mobs. All L75 content, Abyssea, Grounds, Magian. It's all stupidly easy to melee. So, you don't melee trash mobs.

Whats the other % AV?

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

Whats the other % AV?

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I think he's counting every mob that exists in the game, right down to the lvl 1 bunnies.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I think he's counting every mob that exists in the game, right down to the lvl 1 bunnies.

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Hehe:cool:

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I think he's counting every mob that exists in the game, right down to the lvl 1 bunnies.

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Magian alone should have forced you to kill a few thousand EP mobs for 1 staff. Never lifted your staff once, did you?

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Magian alone should have forced you to kill a few thousand EP mobs for 1 staff. Never lifted your staff once, did you?

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Sure. Count level 50 mobs as something a SMN should melee, I don't care. But you know what? I'll still outdamage you on any mob out there. As a WAR and as a SMN.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Magian alone should have forced you to kill a few thousand EP mobs for 1 staff. Never lifted your staff once, did you?

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Oh you mean those mobs that for the most part die so fast melee is pointless anyway? Yeah I meleed them sometimes, if they didn't die so fast, but for the most part it was:

Step 1. Preadator claws

Step 2. enga.... oh wait its almost dead nevermind.

Step 3. turn away, Garuda gets kill shot.

Also my staff skill is 250, how exactly do you expect me to skill that up on EP--?

PS. Thousands? for one Staff? The perp cost stave path requires you to kill 1,225 mobs total, that's "thousand" singular.

You have 45 seconds until your next BP. Do you just stand there?

As for skilling, if you were serious about it, the EP/DC in Abyssea are easier to kill and can take you to cap. Don't worry about the hate issues I have. You have chosen very weak, non-melee weapons.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

You have 45 seconds until your next BP. Do you just stand there?

As for skilling, if you were serious about it, the EP/DC in Abyssea are easier to kill and can take you to cap. Don't worry about the hate issues I have. You have chosen very weak, non-melee weapons.

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Whatever I want the mob is prety much dead anyway, most trial mobs last at most 30secs after a BP, why would I take the time to engage for 20 odd secs when I have to turn anyway before the mob dies, especially when my TP will zero out on next Blood Pact.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Don't worry about the hate issues I have. You have chosen very weak, non-melee weapons.

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You mean while soloing? Of course you would have hate issues if you can't keep your avatar out full time. But then again, you should be able to kill EP mobs in Abyssea without an avatar anyway. Just wait until they start becoming EM, then you might be in trouble.

You have it backwards for trials, Raz. You melee until the timer is ready then use the BP. THat way, the avatar always has the killshot. Then you assault/melee/spirit taker on the next mob.

I should clarify with careful juggling, I kill 2 Abyssea mobs in 50 seconds. You won't see that without aftermath.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

You have it backwards for trials, Raz. You melee until the timer is ready then use the BP. THat way, the avatar always has the killshot. Then you assault/melee/spirit taker on the next mob.

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MP isn't an issue, neither is killspeed. Predator Claws wait 20-30 seconds until mob dies, find next mob repeat. Melee tends to be unnecesssary and not worth the effort to do, BPs zero out my MP Avatar : +20 atk/+12 MAB is far more useful than a Spirit Taker.

What about inside Abyssea Raz?

PC > dead mob > assault another mob > wait for recast timer > PC > dead mob?

You can kill 2 mobs in Abyssea in 50 seconds...and you don't have to melee either!

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Originally Posted by Korpg

What about inside Abyssea Raz?

PC > dead mob > assault another mob > wait for recast timer > PC > dead mob?

You can kill 2 mobs in Abyssea in 50 seconds...and you don't have to melee either!

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Lol I missed that post, good catch.

Catch 22, melee is only not worthwhile because you aren't putting in the time to get +70 acc/att. I will have capped staff skill for L95 in approximately a week. I spent the time because it is worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Catch 22, melee is only not worthwhile because you aren't putting in the time to get +70 acc/att. I will have capped staff skill for L95 in approximately a week. I spent the time because it is worthwhile.

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No it's not worthwhile because anything a SMN can reliably melee is dying so fast I barely would have time to engage it, before needing to move on.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

No it's not worthwhile because anything a SMN can reliably melee is dying so fast I barely would have time to engage it, before needing to move on.

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I'm certain your definition of reliable is pathetic. Let's try this way: whatever two of you could reliably duo without resummoning is what I can reliably melee. Let's not ever consider anything you can melee.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I'm certain your definition of reliable is pathetic. Let's try this way: whatever two of you could reliably duo without resummoning is what I can reliably melee. Let's not ever consider anything you can melee.

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Thats pretty much a list of things that will die so fast there's no point in drawing your staff.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Thats pretty much a list of things that will die so fast there's no point in drawing your staff.

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You make no sense. Do you always jump to assuming you are twice as strong as yourself? Not until you can melee...

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Originally Posted by Dallas

You make no sense. Do you always jump to assuming you are twice as strong as yourself? Not until you can melee...

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I'm going to assume this discussion take place in Abyssea as it's the only place an Avatar can last a full fight on anything >IT++, and I'm going to answer in terms of NMs as there's nothing really that will survive 2 BP: Rages.

You said anything 2 SMNs can duo in a single Summoning you can melee, well thats a list of things that will die extremely fast unless a) It's powerful and you're using tank Atmas or b) the duoing SMNs are spamming healing pacts.

The problems that arise here for a) either both SMNs will use a full Damage Atma build and just stagger BPS/resummons to tear it down quick, or one Summoner will have a Tank build while the other will be using a full damage build, the mob will also go down very quickly anyway. Both of these would go faster than you meleeing as you would need at least some tanking atmas to make an Avatar last a full fight against all but the weakest NMs.

And for b) Both of these Summoners would still be able to use at least 2 DD atmas a piece, and still be able to keep an Avatar out the entire fight, seeing as they would have a partner Avatar to help lessen the damage each are taking between Healing Pacts, whereas a solo melee SMN relying on their pet to last the entire fight will need at least 2 tanking atmas to make this happen.