Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

ftr, no form of crit rate on weapons has been known to affect any other weapon.

Even so, that'd make a damn solid Main Hand weapon for non-Relic/Emp Holders, and a very respectable off-hand for those Relic/Emp holders.

DEX+15 alone would make it a beast for Rudra's, combined with its stellar DPS and yet to be known Added effect.

(Note Byrth: I know you're not discounting the weapon, just laying a fact :))

Oh yeah, it'd be an awesome mainhand/offhand for sure, I think. I'd guess it'll be the best non-big-3 DD mainhand weapon for sure for any dagger job outside Abyssea.

The downsides are, it has lower DPS than the level 90 Twashtar (let alone 95 Mandau or Twashtar) and the crit rate will likely only affect the hand it's in. We can probably expect Twashtar to go up to 20 DEX in the next update, too, which continues to be the most undervalued part of the weapon (hello capped dDEX), and combined with this dagger (35 DEX on weapons) I think we'd be able to cap dDEX on damned near anything.

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Occasionally deals severe damate

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So... is that dagger supposed to say "Occasionally deals Severe Damage" or "Occasionally deals Severe Camate"

...Honestly, I'm not sure which one is scarier.

Edit: Damn, Krab beat me to it in the other thread D:

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Originally Posted by Camate

I love this game just as much as you all do and I have no doubt in my mind that the reason why people get so heated is because they care about this game a lot.

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I always try and remember to preface my disappointed/angry replies to your posts with a disclaimer that I am in no way mad at you. I imagine you might be as frustrated as us when you have to give us info from the devs that you know is gonna make us rage after you spend time trying to convey to them that we are unhappy. Keep up the good work!!

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Oh yeah, it'd be an awesome mainhand/offhand for sure, I think. I'd guess it'll be the best non-big-3 DD mainhand weapon for sure for any dagger job outside Abyssea.

The downsides are, it has lower DPS than the level 90 Twashtar (let alone 95 Mandau or Twashtar) and the crit rate will likely only affect the hand it's in. We can probably expect Twashtar to go up to 20 DEX in the next update, too, which continues to be the most undervalued part of the weapon (hello capped dDEX), and combined with this dagger (35 DEX on weapons) I think we'd be able to cap dDEX on damned near anything.

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This dagger is gonna let me use my glavoid shells on an ukon with a clear conscience. Mandau/SparkleKnife for life!!

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Originally Posted by Camate

I love this game just as much as you all do and I have no doubt in my mind that the reason why people get so heated is because they care about this game a lot.

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Still, I bet it sucks reading through a Thomas Pinchon novel worth of disgruntled posts about a video-game. Thanks for understanding.

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Originally Posted by Camate

I understand all your concerns and I am doing my best to communicate them all to the development team. Just hang in there a bit while I try to get some additional comments.

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After this, and when you said you're hounding the dev team for info on rng/cor's ammo issues, I have to say I love you. It's nice to know we are being heard because tbh I think a lot of people were beginning to doubt.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

After this, and when you said you're hounding the dev team for info on rng/cor's ammo issues, I have to say I love you. It's nice to know we are being heard because tbh I think a lot of people were beginning to doubt.

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Now that we know that you are reading this stuff, is there any chance that you could mention that so far bully sucks?

First off, I just want to let you know that I have already delivered all of your concerns expressed in this thread thus far to the development team, however, I have not received a comment as of yet.

Putting that aside for the moment, I do have some additional information about stacking the effect of Treasure Hunter when using SA-WS/TA-WS/SATA-WS.

Based on feedback we have received we will be performing the below adjustments:
• Making it so an increase in the effect of Treasure Hunter is possible when using a close range physical weapon skill (*1)
• When using a weapon skill by itself, the rate of increase will be the same as a normal close range attack.
• When combining a weapon skill with Sneak Attack/Trick Attack, the rate of increase will be the same as using Sneak Attack/Trick Attack.

As stated previously, with the current system we are unable to display Treasure Hunter effect increase in the log when using weapon skills.

If we were to try and make it so it is displayed in the log, the work load would be roughly equivalent to the amount of work needed to adjust multiple jobs, so because of this we are not planning to make adjustments to this. Likewise, we do not have any plans of adding the effect increase animation for the same reason. We apologize.

As for the implementation timing, it will most likely be some time after the version update scheduled for the end of September, so please check it out on the test server. As we get information we will let you know.

Another adjustment we will be making is reducing the recast timer for “Bully” from 5 minutes to 3 minutes based off feedback and what we have been monitoring on the test server


Depending on how many players are in the battle, the rate of intimidation will increase (*2), so please try it out (of course there is a cap).

*1 If it is a multi-hit weapon skill, the increase will occur on only the first hit.
*2 If a player outside of the party has generated enmity on the enemy (for example, an outside WHM curing a THF in the party), even players outside of the party will be considered as participating in the battle.

Thank you Camate!

Does this post mean that at the moment WSs can not increase TH?

And could you tell the dev team that bully not being so terrible during solo/duo play would be awesome since that is one of the only places a THF really shines. I am fine with scaling effects based on party size but starting the scaling at useless seems kinda mean ;_;.

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Another adjustment we will be making is reducing the recast timer for “Bully” from 5 minutes to 3 minutes based off feedback and what we have been monitoring on the test server


Depending on how many players are in the battle, the rate of intimidation will increase (*2), so please try it out (of course there is a cap).

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A 30 second duration is still too short.

Little rays of sunshine. Glad to hear that they are trying to make bully better.

FYI, I don't think anyone is nearly as interested in seeing treasure hunter level as they are in seeing what the actual drop rate increase is. This may have been lost in translation?

I want to see something that says " Hey every body! The Thief just increased drop rates by ----- amount! aren't you glad you brought a Thief?"

Of course this would also require that Thief main actually had that effect, which we currently don't.

I could be way off on this, but I don't remember the chat log part being the real issue. Anyways, Thanks for the hard work.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Thank you Camate!

Does this post mean that at the moment WSs can not increase TH?

And could you tell the dev team that bully not being so terrible during solo/duo play would be awesome since that is one of the only places a THF really shines. I am fine with scaling effects based on party size but starting the scaling at useless seems kinda mean ;_;.

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Oh, bugger, so my original assumption of it not working on SA/TA-WS and SA/TA-Feint might've been correct... And here, after reading this thread, I told my friends that; I'm still upgrading on those SA-Rudras, but they just can't see it, hahaha. They'll burn me alive ._.

I figured it didn't proc on WS...

Either way, Thanks VM Camate, It may not be exactly what we want, but everything you gave us right now is positive, so its good news :)

Could you possibly convince them to make Bully last 60sec? 3min rec 1min dur allows us to keep it up 33% of the time, Which would make it quite useful, but i dont think overpowered. They might... Its shaping up to be pretty nice, lets take it just one step further!

Holy lolTHF, batman.

I guess it's good news that they're going to let you proc more, but I was already assuming TH could upgrade on any WS hit (like all 6 hits of Evisceration). Not to mention that the whole proc system doesn't matter at all until someone figures out what it does, if it does anything.

Camate, could you please reassure us that the proc system (and TH III) give a drop rate increase? So far we have been unable to confirm it ourselves. If possible, could you just tell us how Treasure Hunter works?

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Originally Posted by Byrth

If possible, could you just tell us how Treasure Hunter works?

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Or better yet, Just make it powerful enough that we don't have to WONDER if its working. It shouldn't take killing and documenting 10,000 monsters and the drop rates just to prove that the benefits of higher tiers actually exist. That should be a giant Flashing red warning light to the Developers that the effect is broken and or worthless.

They have no problem doing this with !!! procs. I don't see why it should be a problem for Thief.

THF main being required just for the one job trait would really suck. Though I guess having to level another alt is better than having to do everything twice as much as I would have to otherwise.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Or better yet, Just make it powerful enough that we don't have to WONDER if its working. It shouldn't take killing and documenting 10,000 monsters and the drop rates just to prove that the benefits of higher tiers actually exist. That should be a giant Flashing red warning light to the Developers that the effect is broken and or worthless.

They have no problem doing this with !!! procs. I don't see why it should be a problem for Thief.

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Have you not done seal farming with and without a THF? The effect of TH is very noticeable. Grellow with TH you get 3-4 (+1 timed NMs) with an occasional 2; Grellow without TH nets you 1-2, with an occasional 3 and very rare 0.

What you are asking for is for TH to turn on staggers, with +70% increases to the treasure pool.

I wouldn't be surprised if TH multiplies the chance for an idea to drop, so if TH7 gives a +10% increase to drops, something like seals who drop 90% of the time with Grellow, go up to 99% drop. However, something that has a terrible drop rate, like Kings pop items, say 10% drop rate would only go up to 11% total drop chance - not as big of an impact.

It goes without saying those numbers are ones I pulled from my bum to illustrate my point.

It would be nice, though, if the Tanakan powers that be would tell us exactly how it works, but I expect we will never get such a mechanical question answered.

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Originally Posted by Juxtaposition

Have you not done seal farming with and without a THF?.

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All the time. Especially low man, you make sure you have your essential jobs first: DDTank/WHM/Weakness trigger jobs, etc and THEN if you have a non-essential slot left over you see about bringing a THF main for TH & drops.

Anyone else can /THF (or BST or RNG for that matter) for TH II (usually the WHM/THF) and get very similar results as THF main. THF main has been third string for making things drop for quite a while....especially since all the new endgame events started to have weakness trigger requirements for good droprates (Or worse events like Voidwatch or any KSNM/BCNM/ENM etc where TH doesn't do anything).

Weakness Trigger > THF main every time. If someone needs seals/+2 items and there isn't a BLM coming with us, I CHANGE from THF to BLM to get better drops.

That. Shit. Is F*cked up.

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Originally Posted by Juxtaposition

Have you not done seal farming with and without a THF? The effect of TH is very noticeable. Grellow with TH you get 3-4 (+1 timed NMs) with an occasional 2; Grellow without TH nets you 1-2, with an occasional 3 and very rare 0.

What you are asking for is for TH to turn on staggers, with +70% increases to the treasure pool.

I wouldn't be surprised if TH multiplies the chance for an idea to drop, so if TH7 gives a +10% increase to drops, something like seals who drop 90% of the time with Grellow, go up to 99% drop. However, something that has a terrible drop rate, like Kings pop items, say 10% drop rate would only go up to 11% total drop chance - not as big of an impact.

It goes without saying those numbers are ones I pulled from my bum to illustrate my point.

It would be nice, though, if the Tanakan powers that be would tell us exactly how it works, but I expect we will never get such a mechanical question answered.

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The concern is that the difference between TH2 and TH10 is un-noticable not TH as a whole is un-noticable.

not really... it is probably not noticable on rare drops [Blue proced Indrik with Th7-8, 1/4 droped in 20 fights], but very noticable on common ones ( example farming pop items).The other days I farmed ulhuadshi. the first 6 I yellow proced and TH6 only ( THF range attacks). Only got 2 jewels. Next round I proced 6 Ulhuadshi and did TH9-10, got 6 jewels.

I got other examples with emperador de altepa where yellow proced, TH6' d Nms drop almost no seal, while TH9-10 would guarrante 2-3.

In dynamis I got ~175 coins the few times i entered w/o THF, and I usually get 250+ with TH6. Etc.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

The concern is that the difference between TH2 and TH10 is un-noticable not TH as a whole is un-noticable.

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Exactly. Treasure Hunter 10 should be MORE noticeable than Treasure Hunter 2. Also, to further add to Nebos Point..... That Thief that swaps to BLM is most likely coming /BRD. not /THF. Procs are that much more powerful.

So far all evidence points towards all upgrades to Treasure Hunter from gear or Damage as being nothing more than an excuse to nerf all other aspects of Thief.

On the flip side, Maybe now that the cats out of the bag, the Developers can justify making Thief a real DD or Support class, and tell people " Well, Treasure Hunter doesn't do much so we had to give them something." .

Crossing my fingers that something good happens.

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Originally Posted by Monchat

not really... it is probably not noticable on rare drops [Blue proced Indrik with Th7-8, 1/4 droped in 20 fights], but very noticable on common ones ( example farming pop items).The other days I farmed ulhuadshi. the first 6 I yellow proced and TH6 only ( THF range attacks). Only got 2 jewels. Next round I proced 6 Ulhuadshi and did TH9-10, got 6 jewels.

I got other examples with emperador de altepa where yellow proced, TH6' d Nms drop almost no seal, while TH9-10 would guarrante 2-3.

In dynamis I got ~175 coins the few times i entered w/o THF, and I usually get 250+ with TH6. Etc.

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I'm on THF probably 80% of the time for events and I honestly see no increase from anything above TH3. On big stuff I'm killing for myself I have tried TH2 TH3 and TH6+ and none of them seem any different to me.

Don't understand this whole noticeable/unnoticeable thing. If something is 10% droprate, you aren't going to be able to eyeball the difference. "noticeable" is not what you should be concerned with. The hard testing over in the TH thread is what matters.

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

Don't understand this whole noticeable/unnoticeable thing. If something is 10% droprate, you aren't going to be able to eyeball the difference. "noticeable" is not what you should be concerned with. The hard testing over in the TH thread is what matters.

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The hard testing over in the TH thread is what we are referring to when we say "no noticable difference"

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Originally Posted by Nebo

The hard testing over in the TH thread is what we are referring to when we say "no noticable difference"

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Exactly. Treasure Hunter 10 should be MORE noticeable than Treasure Hunter 2.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

I'm on THF probably 80% of the time for events and I honestly see no increase from anything above TH3. On big stuff I'm killing for myself I have tried TH2 TH3 and TH6+ and none of them seem any different to me.

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Oh I see...

This is merely allegorical so take from it what you will. I was farming a coffer key in Davoi on THF for the AF gloves I had never bothered to get before. I spent a good 2 hours there and never saw a key drop with TH 6-8 on all the mobs. I eventually just opened the coffer with Living keys after three or so failed attempts. Later I was fighting mobs in Toraimorai Canal on SMN and a coffer key drops on the 3rd mob with 0 TH...

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

Don't understand this whole noticeable/unnoticeable thing. If something is 10% droprate, you aren't going to be able to eyeball the difference. "noticeable" is not what you should be concerned with. The hard testing over in the TH thread is what matters.

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If we only killed a mob 10% slower by being on THF instead of WAR or MNK, or even other sub-par DDs, this might be acceptable. At least for a NM where you don't need to farm 4 KIs to pop it. Unfortunately, even my gimp geared war deals at leas 33% more damage then my well geared THF, and the low HP of THF means there's more chance I'll die to AOE magic too. No subtle blow combined with low attack speed and high triple attack means I have to disengage and run away for most of the fight when not landing SA/TA or procing a ws.

Funny but true why not give us thief more solo job traits that works without a party member in party.
I think they don't because thief has too much evasion like ninja xD

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

Oh I see...

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Well, do what most other rational people do and read the actual data. What they're saying is true, backed up by numbers.

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Originally Posted by Alaik

Well, do what most other rational people do and read the actual data. What they're saying is true, backed up by numbers.

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There's no numbers saying that TH9 is the same as TH2. You can't eyeball such small percentages. Just because it isn't noticeable doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Would comparing a Thief's drop rates against a level 90+ Dipper Yuly's drop rates be a good way to determine if Treasure Hunter beyond 3 is worthwhile, since the effete insect and it's master would kill weak stuff significantly faster and with more ease than a melee stuck subbing Thief?

I shudder to think what the sample size would have to be, but I'd be willing to kill a lot of pink birds and record the results if it would be helpful. It would probably need to wait until after the level cap is 95, though, to eliminate any chance of a level 89 ladybug mucking up the results.

Edit: I'd just be the doing the Dipper Yuly bit, to be really clear. I'd have to rely on someone else to provide Thief drop rates from 900000000000000000000000 and two pink birds.

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

There's no numbers saying that TH9 is the same as TH2. You can't eyeball such small percentages. Just because it isn't noticeable doesn't mean it doesn't work.

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You are missing the point. If treasure hunter 2 is an obvious boost to drops ..... and treasure hunter 9 is such a trivial increase to drops that you have to kill hundreds of monsters to even know if its real...... then why bother with bringing a thief main?

I was stating that it should be the other way around. People should see barely any effect from treasure hunter 2, and a huge increase from treasure hunter 9. Furthermore, they shouldn't be using treasure hunter as an excuse for thief being weak in other areas, when anyone that subs thief gets increases in drops that are indistinguishable from treasure hunter applied by a thief.

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

There's no numbers saying that TH9 is the same as TH2. You can't eyeball such small percentages. Just because it isn't noticeable doesn't mean it doesn't work.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Hunter-Testing

That took almost 10 seconds to get. If you've taken a statistics class you should know the sample size is enough to base a general impression about. It won't be accurate at the current data input rate for another week or two, at least in terms of <5% margin of error. Either way, yeah, guess what, the statements are not 100% correct, but they are more correct than your's.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

You are missing the point. If treasure hunter 2 is an obvious boost to drops ..... and treasure hunter 9 is such a trivial increase to drops that you have to kill hundreds of monsters to even know if its real...... then why bother with bringing a thief main?

I was stating that it should be the other way around. People should see barely any effect from treasure hunter 2, and a huge increase from treasure hunter 9. Furthermore, they shouldn't be using treasure hunter as an excuse for thief being weak in other areas, when anyone that subs thief gets increases in drops that are indistinguishable from treasure hunter applied by a thief.

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Because an increase from 10% to 15% is both unnoticeable and at the same time a massive boost. That is more effective than all the damage in the game and is absolute justification for making thf do crap dmg.

You keep assuming th9 does nothing compared to th2 and that iisnt proven at all.

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Originally Posted by Alaik

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...Hunter-Testing

That took almost 10 seconds to get. If you've taken a statistics class you should know the sample size is enough to base a general impression about. It won't be accurate at the current data input rate for another week or two, at least in terms of <5% margin of error. Either way, yeah, guess what, the statements are not 100% correct, but they are more correct than your's.

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That thread shows nothing at aall about the effecrs of th9 vs th2. There is currently nothing showing that th9 has no effect over th2

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

That thread shows nothing at aall about the effecrs of th9 vs th2. There is currently nothing showing that th9 has no effect over th2

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Page 5, post 47. There's mention of more as well.

Also in a later post about THF rolling (Which is TH6+ I believe, not 100% sure but I want to say he was using the 3 TH items) he actually got LESS. Which is of course due to a smaller sample size but again, statistics, 100 is sufficient for a broad general impression.

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Originally Posted by Alaik

Page 5, post 47. There's mention of more as well.

Also in a later post about THF rolling (Which is TH6+ I believe, not 100% sure but I want to say he was using the 3 TH items) he actually got LESS. Which is of course due to a smaller sample size but again, statistics, 100 is sufficient for a broad general impression.

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It says nothing about th9, sorry. And we dont eeven know if theres caps and floors to drop rates that can be affecting it.

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

It says nothing about th9, sorry. And we dont eeven know if theres caps and floors to drop rates that can be affecting it.

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If there is a cap that is the absolute worst case scenario and a floor would be the base drop rate. You are still missing the point.

Curing is the only thing that sets WHM apart at all. It is heads and tails above anyone else capable of curing. WHM is the king of cures.

TH is the only thing that sets THF apart at all. It's TH abilities over those of RNG BST or anyone /THF are as of now unable to be nailed down or even discerned. THF is the shift manager of TH.