Too true. A lot of other LS's and pugs are a good bit behind your progress, but as with voidwatch, everyone will get there, and people won't stay in the groups that can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taint2
By the time SE does something about shields, paladin will be a solo tool again. When new NMs come out, players will want Aegischains again anyway.
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06-09-2013, 02:05 AMOmnysValefor
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06-09-2013, 09:03 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoSorry if it's already been said, but I doubt it can be said often enough:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alerith
I don't want content to require Paladin. If nothing else, that's not fair to the other 21 jobs. What I'd really like is content that allows or permits Paladin. Right now it's a binary switch, a quantum leap between "needs PLD" and "no PLD allowed," much like the gap between relic/empyrean shields and other shields.
We can drop this whole shield drama entirely if PLD had viable contributions to a party in other ways, say with a Great Sword or a Staff. Excenmille has been rockin' a two-hander for over twenty years, but we players sure as hell can't. -
06-09-2013, 09:17 AMDuelleI don't think this is the sort of thing you'd apply a blanket rule to. My aim was creating something that generates high enmity without the damage attached to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor
For argument's sake, imagine PLD's version of Holy was scaled to do the same enmity as Flare, but capable of doing only a fraction of the damage.
I don't think this is possible without some drastic change to encounter design and/or party dynamics.Quote:
Still PLD's damage would have to be looked at if they want us to keep a position in zergs, and in this day and age, everything becomes a zerg sooner or later.
Less about PLD-onry and more about content that requires a tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
PLD happens to attempt to lean in the direction of "tank", and is one of the few jobs that does. SE gave up on WAR, they never even got started with SAM, and then spread stuff out on jobs like DNC for some reason. The flaw is that you have no jobs heavily leaning (or purely designed to) in the direction of tanking. What's worse is that most of those other jobs have some sort of secondary use, while PLD does not. This is all exacerbated by the existence of mitigation via Aegis/Ochain. -
06-09-2013, 09:52 AMDemon6324236If it does not require a PLD, PLD is not worth bringing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
No content in the game will you ever see people truly wanting a PLD if its not required, why? Because, PLD does shit for damage, has no other utility besides tanking that can not easily be done better by another job, holding mobs, Twilight gear, cures, WHM SCH or RDM, DDing, every DD in the game basically. So why bring a PLD if its not required? Simple, don't, and that's the problem, no content truly requires a PLD.
You said its not fair to the other jobs, well really, may I ask how fair it is to PLD that its only use is when content is new and not yet understood? Since no content requires a PLD as soon as we understand how to win we no longer use one, why would we? We can tank with DDs, people putting out more damage and that are overall more useful to the party than the PLD would be because we can survive doing it, because PLD is not required. If it were required, we would have to bring it, but its not, so why do it? Can you give me a reason to bring PLD when its not required? Because outside of saying the same thing Matsui said with taking newer players to Delve, just be nice and take them with you cause they need it too, I can not think of any reason to take a PLD when its not truly needed. -
06-09-2013, 10:28 AMAlpheus
I wonder, would you give up the Legendary shields (a nerf) if it meant they strengthened PLD as a DD or otherwise brought it up to par such that it can get away from such a binary function of usefulness?
Edit: I ask this because if SE were serious about changing PLD to have a wider degree of usefulness I see them pointing to those two shields (and to a lesser extent Burtgang) as reasons why PLD cant have (more) nice things. I also ask because its a good point (the whole binary usefulness of PLD) and I am simply curious what other good points can be brought up if it was discussed further. -
06-09-2013, 10:45 AMZiyyigo-TipyigoWhich is exactly the problem I want to see fixed. Was that particular paragraph too long?Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
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06-09-2013, 11:09 AMDuelleI recognize that it would be easier to nerf PLD survivability over fixing the battle system, shield design, defensive mechanics, party dynamics and mob design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpheus
At the same time, I'd only accept it if PLD were to be redesigned around Holy Sword skills (one of the more memorable concepts from FFTactics), and even then I wouldn't think it was a surefire way to change things. Seems too much like taking a shortcut in an attempt to avoid the real problem. -
06-09-2013, 11:17 AMOmnysValeforOn anything that matters, pld is lucky to clear 100 damage Holy II, without divine emblem. Of course DE is sitting there, but DE isn't enough and the cooldown sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Right, a trait to increase Holy or Holy 2's damage does this, yeah?Quote:
For argument's sake, imagine PLD's version of Holy was scaled to do the same enmity as Flare, but capable of doing only a fraction of the damage.
I agree. While a warrior can tank a zerg, it still can't tank like a pld. Asking for pld, in its current state, to be given more damage potential is like asking for warrior to gain some more tankiness.Quote:
I don't think this is possible without some drastic change to encounter design and/or party dynamics.
I'd say that PLD is purely a tank. Tanks in all games do some damage and that's all that PLD does. It's enmity, and the love of designing zergs, that's broken, and not so much PLD. XI creates this atmosphere of the boss needing to die, and needing to die now. WAR, SAM, DRK tanks can contribute more damage in their -DT sets than a PLD can in his DD set, even if he were using a GS most likely, especially since the war can, and will, swap to a ws set for ws.
That's what it boils down to really. -
06-09-2013, 12:29 PMDemon6324236No, but no matter what you do to PLD, unless it can do something else besides tank so well that it can do it just as well as another job, and its a viable use, then it will never fix that PLD is only useful when absolutely required. If a PLD could DD for instance, would I bring a PLD to tank and DD, or bring a WAR which can tank all the same, take more damage, but deal more damage as well? Chances are, I will take the WAR, or a DRK, or a SAM. What if it healed as well as RDM or SCH? Nope, I have dedicated support for that, same as buffing. Like I said before, can you give me a reason to bring PLD when its not required? If not, can you give me a real idea, not a vague idea, a real, solid idea, that would fix it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo
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06-09-2013, 12:43 PMDemon6324236He is talking about giving you the enmity as though there were damage, without the actual damage, so that you can spike enmity with them, but not deal extra damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmnysValefor