Do Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean staves lack utility?

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I can give 15% haste, 8% attk bonus and 35~dmg enfire full time with room for another buff in the cycle

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I can haste the DDs, and let the COR+BRDs give the same(if not better buffs) sans 35 enfire which doesnt stack with haste samba.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I can give 15% haste, 8% attk bonus and 35~dmg enfire full time with room for another buff in the cycle

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Hastega is worthless from a DD perspective when there is any other mage already in the party. Please don't start with that again. Enfire also does not stack with the single best en-buff in the entire game, so it's also practically worthless in a competently formed group.

The only thing of merit in the entire post is 8% Attack Boost, and what's that from anyways? I thought Ifrit's favor was DA. Please don't say Warcry?

GG, just go 4x WAR. All this mage crap just gets in the way of good ole hack'n'slash.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Hastega is worthless from a DD perspective when there is any other mage already in the party. Please don't start with that again. Enfire also does not stack with the single best en-buff in the entire game, so it's also practically worthless in a competently formed group.

The only thing of merit in the entire post is 8% Attack Boost, and what's that from anyways? I thought Ifrit's favor was DA. Please don't say Warcry?

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I'll keep starting with Haste because I have it, and I've yet to be told to let the WHM haste the group so the point is valid.
Because there's always a DNC in the group(not to mention if there was I'd apply a different buff). It's from Crimson howl.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I'll keep starting with Haste because I have it, and I've yet to be told to let the WHM haste the group so the point is valid.

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No, it's not
Group w/ you = everyone has haste
Group w/o you = everyone has haste.

There's no haste gained from you being in the party. You just alleviate the whm the tediousness of casting it fast 4 times vs you casting it once.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

I'll keep starting with Haste because I have it, and I've yet to be told to let the WHM haste the group so the point is valid.
Because there's always a DNC in the group(not to mention if there was I'd apply a different buff). It's from Crimson howl.

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It doesn't matter if you Haste the group or the WHM Hastes the group. The point is that the group has Haste whether you are there or not.

If there is no SMN, what happens? WHM casts Haste. If there is a SMN, what happens? WHM casts Haste or SMN uses Hastega.

What is the benefit of SMN using Hastega? Not 15% Haste for DDs, because they have that whether or not the SMN is there. The benefit is 120-160~ MP for the WHM, assuming they are still hasting themselves and are not hasting the SMN.

Hastega is not adding Haste. Hastega is adding MP. That is not a DD buff. Heck, it is not even a boon to the WHM unless that 40-53MP/minute they save is the make/break for them running out of MP over time or not. Effective value of Hastega? Convenience. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Hastega is worthless from a DD perspective when there is any other mage already in the party. Please don't start with that again.

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Incorrect. If there is a summoner present, regardless of who else is in the party that might be WHM or RDM or subbing WHM, Hastega should be used, not Haste. Yes, "If there is a summoner present" is a massive if. But pretending that this is not a fact is ludicrous.

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Enfire also does not stack with the single best en-buff in the entire game, so it's also practically worthless in a competently formed group.

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Unless you're a red mage, what enspell is better than ifrit's enfire? Don't say haste samba or I'll slap you, because
1) Haste samba is not a spell
2) you're not that much more likely to have a dancer in the party than a summoner
3) It's only "good" if it's from main DNC, where it is twice as effective if merited, but see # 2)

A "competently built" party can include a summoner. Change "competent" to "the best" or "elitist" and then I can agree with you. Dancers are not super common either, so you're not always going to have full merit haste samba. If you have it, sure, you should use it. But enfire is a perfectly good buff to use otherwise. Unless you're in some elitist only club, you're not going to be able to form parties with the top 1% performers all the time.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Incorrect. If there is a summoner present, regardless of who else is in the party that might be WHM or RDM or subbing WHM, Hastega should be used, not Haste. Yes, "If there is a summoner present" is a massive if. But pretending that this is not a fact is ludicrous.

Unless you're a red mage, what enspell is better than ifrit's enfire? Don't say haste samba or I'll slap you, because
1) Haste samba is not a spell
2) you're not that much more likely to have a dancer in the party than a summoner
3) It's only "good" if it's from main DNC, where it is twice as effective if merited, but see number 2)

A "competently built" party can include a summoner. Change "competent" to "the best" or "elitist" and then I can agree with you. Dancers are not super common either, so you're not always going to have full merit haste samba.

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I said en-buff, not spell. Haste. Samba. Read Cream Soda's post and my own right above yours.

Also, note my standards when I say "Competent". What competent group does not have at least one Dancer available to them? What competent player is unable to level and gear Dancer at a basic level (basic gear swaps, some +1 AF3, decent non-magian daggers) within a week of playing, tops?

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Incorrect. If there is a summoner present, regardless of who else is in the party that might be WHM or RDM or subbing WHM, Hastega should be used, not Haste. Yes, "If there is a summoner present" is a massive if. But pretending that this is not a fact is ludicrous.

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He said from a DD perspective. Learn how to read. The person who benefits from this is the whm or rdm since they save mp not having to cast haste x number of times vs the smns casting it once.

The DDs gain nothing because w/ or w/o the smn, they will have haste regardless.

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Unless you're a red mage, what enspell is better than ifrit's enfire? Don't say haste samba or I'll slap you, because
1) Haste samba is not a spell

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It doesn't have to be a spell, however, the effect of it is still in the same category and the point is they do not stack. If your first line of defense is "its not a spell" then you should probably rethink your argument, as whether or not its a spell has 0 to do w/ the comparison of samba to enfire

Edit: Wow, I should have figured you'd mess that one up. He's right, he did say en-buff. He never claimed it to be a spell to begin with.

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2) you're not that much more likely to have a dancer in the party than a summoner

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Doesn't mean they don't stack and that samba isn't better.

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3) It's only "good" if it's from main DNC, where it is twice as effective if merited, but see number 2)

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It's only at its maximum potential if its merited, even w/ 0 merits, it's still multiple times better than enfire.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I said en-buff, not spell. Haste. Samba. Read Cream Soda's post and my own right above yours.

Also, note my standards when I say "Competent". What competent group does not have at least one Dancer available to them? What competent player is unable to level and gear Dancer at a basic level (basic gear swaps, some +1 AF3, decent non-magian daggers) within a week of playing, tops?

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replace "unable" with "want to" and you see why not everyone has a DNC around full time.

I just wondered something. How do the Ukon "TP feed" complainers feel about that meleeing DNC needed to make them "BG fapproved?"

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Originally Posted by Razushu

replace "unable" with "want to" and you see why not everyone has a SMN around full time.

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I concur, good sir

dnc doing over twice as much dmg your crapy smn, not including the gain other DD get from samba?

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

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Originally Posted by Razushu

replace "unable" with "want to" and you see why not everyone has a DNC(SMN*) around full time.

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I concur, good sir

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Please don't edit my posts its rude

*Cream_Soda edited my post to say SMN

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What competent group does not have at least one Dancer available to them?

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Lots of them. The majority of them even. Your standards are top 1%. Any group can do just dam fine without a dancer.
Here's a scale for overcoming a typical challenge:

0-------------1--------^---------2-^-----#-3------4---*-5

0 = unable to win
1 = Able to win but facing high difficulty, wipes or excessive time required
2 = Able to win with minor problems in a reasonable time
3 = Able to win easily, no significant issues in a good time
4 = Nearly effortless winning in an unusually quick time
5 = Flawless victory in record time

* = your standard, based on your attitude, people you appear to associate with, use of formulas/spreadsheets etc to determine performance, and apparent achievements.
# = Standard I would hold a player of above-average experience to
^ ^ = typical range of performance for the average out of all players attempting challenge.

It is evident to me that you demand near perfection in party setup, performance, strategy and player ability; a standard you should not be holding the playerbase at large to, as it is just not going to happen.

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Originally Posted by hiko

dnc doing over twice as much dmg your crapy smn, not including the gain other DD get from samba?

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And my SMN is giving more buffs and extra haste

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I just wondered something. How do the Ukon "TP feed" complainers feel about that meleeing DNC needed to make them "BG fapproved?"

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Because the dnc can help cure and adds to dmg?

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Originally Posted by hiko

dnc doing over twice as much dmg your crapy smn, not including the gain other DD get from samba?

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So, you are saying that your DNC does 800 to a WAR's 1000, adds to party haste, and has the second best heals? Let's throw out the WAR then!

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Because the dnc can help cure and adds to dmg?

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You know, back in the day, I remember SMN braggin that their version of Cure 3 was all a party ever needed.

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Originally Posted by Razushu

Please don't edit my posts its rude

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Hypocrite


"Hey, I'm editing your post, but don't edit mine."

smn was never considered a good healer...they were always last resort...lol

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Hypocrite


"Hey, I'm editing your post, but don't edit mine."

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You started it and I apologise, it was meant in jest.

-EDIT- fixed it for you

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Originally Posted by Aurara

smn was never considered a good healer...they were always last resort...lol

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At 75 I was a great healer unless something like Stona was needed

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Lots of them. The majority of them even. Your standards are top 1%. Any group can do just dam fine without a dancer.
Here's a scale for overcoming a typical challenge:

0-------------1--------^---------2-^-----#-3------4---*-5

0 = unable to win
1 = Able to win but facing high difficulty, wipes or excessive time required
2 = Able to win with minor problems in a reasonable time
3 = Able to win easily, no significant issues in a good time
4 = Nearly effortless winning in an unusually quick time
5 = Flawless victory in record time

* = your standard, based on your attitude, people you appear to associate with, use of formulas/spreadsheets etc to determine performance, and apparent achievements.
# = Standard I would hold a player of above-average experience to
^ ^ = typical range of performance for the average out of all players attempting challenge.

It is evident to me that you demand near perfection in party setup, performance, strategy and player ability; a standard you should not be holding the playerbase at large to, as it is just not going to happen.

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Can't deny any of this. Though I don't feel my standards are unreasonable, personally. There is a difference between perfection and reasonable execution. I'm not Thornyy. I don't expect flawless victories in record time. But I do expect a certain amount of respect for my time and for the time of the people around me when rolling with people.

If we're going to be killing something or other, and 3/4 of us are on our top-performing jobs because we want to contribute our utmost to one another, would I feel neglected if the 4th person were to skip out on that responsibility and come +2 farming/Emp farming on SMN? Yes, just a bit. If we had all our Reds, all our Grellows, and sufficient healing/buffing around, would I care too much? Not really. Hell, a buddy of mine still comes Almace-PLD for shits when we have an unusually high number of people around and I don't care. It's only when the choice to come Summoner, or Paladin, or insert-useless-crap-here detrimentally affects the other people in the group that it's really an issue for me.

I never said that people shouldn't come SMN to things if it's what they enjoy and the group is fine without them. But SMN is basically bottom of the barrel regardless, and there's really no changing that. I've learned to accept that about PLD, and I work with it in that manner. Trying to defend a bottom-tier job is a fruitless and, frankly, pointless endeavor.

GG, I know you think the idea is stupid that WAR isn't a god, but how would you credit the other 3 jobs for getting your WAR from 350 to 1000? A WAR is all take, and no give. A "contribution adjustment" is the only way a WAR can even talk to hybrid job.

I have proposed that a very generous WAR contribution assumption puts WAR a maximum 34% above SMN, fully buffed. This is compared to your 25% unbuffed. Considering that the SMN would have more contribution if you add in the buffs to DNC and BRD, this means that SMN is contributing to a party as effectively as they solo.

Sure, pet's are a crutch, MP is a crutch, but a Hver SMN is not. Take away that Ukon WS/aftermath and put on a weaker weapon and see how a contribution adjusted score runs. If the WAR starts trailing on damage, he doesn't have anything else to offer.

You can't really pull out the "your standards are too high" defense in this thread. You're talking about one of the big-3 weapons. If you're getting it, your standards are high, you personally aspire to be quite well geared, and you likely play with people that feel the same.

What is the SMN contributing again?

Because it sure as hell isn't Haste. Aside from Garuda. They're hasting Garuda. Epic contribution to the group right there.

If the SMN is hasting the party, the SMN is contributing Haste. Try to rise above the stupidity drilled into your head by BG.

If the SMN is hasting the party, the SMN is contributing MP to the WHM. Unless of course there is no other mage in the party at all. If SMN is the only mage, you have a valid point. Now good luck killing things as a Melee-SMN solo-healer.

if the party already have a healer (wich is the case >95%) then the smn doesnt contribute with hastega (bar saving the haster few mp/maccro press)

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Originally Posted by Dallas

If the SMN is hasting the party, the SMN is contributing Haste. Try to rise above the stupidity drilled into your head by BG.

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this was covered twice

selective reading hurr durr and yea Korpg is a huge tard for coming to his assumption that I came here to support/cheer you on, lol

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

No, it's not
Group w/ you = everyone has haste
Group w/o you = everyone has haste.

There's no haste gained from you being in the party. You just alleviate the whm the tediousness of casting it fast 4 times vs you casting it once.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It doesn't matter if you Haste the group or the WHM Hastes the group. The point is that the group has Haste whether you are there or not.

If there is no SMN, what happens? WHM casts Haste. If there is a SMN, what happens? WHM casts Haste or SMN uses Hastega.

What is the benefit of SMN using Hastega? Not 15% Haste for DDs, because they have that whether or not the SMN is there. The benefit is 120-160~ MP for the WHM, assuming they are still hasting themselves and are not hasting the SMN.

Hastega is not adding Haste. Hastega is adding MP. That is not a DD buff. Heck, it is not even a boon to the WHM unless that 40-53MP/minute they save is the make/break for them running out of MP over time or not. Effective value of Hastega? Convenience. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Whether you have the smn or not, you get haste.

Let's say you have a brd and get dual marches.

remove the bard, you no longer have marches.

There's a difference.

You guys just need to ignore Dallas. His argument is that if it isn't him, it isn't worth his time.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

selective reading hurr durr and yea Korpg is a huge tard for coming to his assumption that I came here to support/cheer you on, lol

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Well, why else did you come here?

You are just a MNK, you have no say in anything about Emp Staff or Melee SMN.

You are just instigating fights again, why do you even bother?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If the SMN is hasting the party, the SMN is contributing MP to the WHM.

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And the WAR using Hasso is taking MP from the WHM. A WHM hasting the party in the presence of Garuda is taking damage from the party and time away from curing the MP sponge.

ITT: Only Summoners can talk about Summoner?

With that logic, you're just a non emp smn, you have no say on emp staff smn.

I came because it was a popular topic.
I posted because
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMiObx_zMRM

Let's see what crazy assumption you come up with next

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Originally Posted by Dallas

And the WAR using Hasso is taking MP from the WHM. A WHM hasting the party in the presence of Garuda is taking damage from the party and time away from curing the MP sponge.

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Right, because if you don't have a smn in your pt, there isn't another member there to not only replace, but exceed garuda's dmg.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

ITT: Only Summoners can talk about Summoner?

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No, its not that, and you know it.

We are not talking about jobs in general, or MNK specifically, or the effects of anything that effects him personally.

It is about him trying to make himself look better because he needs to stroke his ego like that.

It wouldn't be any different if I went to a MNK forum and tell them that they need to Chi Blast even more, or whatever stupid reason.

He has contributed nothing to this thread. The first thing he did was point out a mistake I made 70 pages ago, one that if he even read the next 3 pages, he would see me admitting my mistake, but he still had to point it out JUST to stoke his ego.

Even then, he keeps pointing out things that were already discussed and proven just to start going after a few people. Why? Because he wants to look good to others, especially to the BG group he loves so much.

Assumption #2(for today, lost count in the long run), good job, sir.

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It wouldn't be any different if I went to a MNK forum and tell them that they need to Chi Blast even more, or whatever stupid reason.

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Please, point out where I told SMNs what they need to do.