To: Mr Akihiko Matsui

Heroes VNMs are probably spammed on EVERY server, just an assumption but I have a near impossible time of finding them alone on Phoenix, and I'm sure were not the only server who wants Ochain PLDs & DBRDs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Exactly, when in truth I think it should be accessible by all, somewhat difficult, and always rewarding. I have a point system that people seem to somewhat ignore or at least never respond to all to much, that I think would be great for VW type content. If RNG is screwing you long enough it eventually adds up to giving you the item anyways. Making people go 1/1 while others go 1/300 is stupid in game design, but so is closing off content to half of the players due to their personal time constraints or inability to play a game at certain times. Neither should be acceptable in game design, all content should be available to all players, and everyone should stand an equal chance at acquiring things, while if given enough time you can get whatever you wish, and luck still gets to play its part up to a point.

---

You might get sick of me referencing XIV, but if it weren't due to the fact that that game is virtually this game with enhanced graphics, I wouldn't be (nor would I have a frame of reference). And before anyone says "That's a different game, it's irrelevant here!" - give me a chance to say that I'm only trying to figure out where SE and major MMO developers are trying to go with this design philosophy. It isn't just about this game. Everything I've tried to cover up to this point was just a stepping stone to get to a bigger picture.

And that bigger picture is why do we need this approach? Does SE really care about what you want, (yes, you), or are they really only trying to please the casual crowd (majority?) in order to get more subs? Can it work? Should it work? Where do the people who enjoy a real challenge going to end up?

And by the way Demon, SE did implement something that resembles your point/ticket system on the primal fights in FF14. People complained also about spamming 100+ fights and getting no return, so what they did was put an item in the treasure coffer called an "Inferno Totem"; 10 of which could be traded in for one of the prized Ifrit weapons.

This whole thread is an embarrassment.

You should be really sad for what you've done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

And by the way Demon, SE did implement something that resembles your point/ticket system on the primal fights in FF14. People complained also about spamming 100+ fights and getting no return, so what they did was put an item in the treasure coffer called an "Inferno Totem"; 10 of which could be traded in for one of the prized Ifrit weapons.

---

Honestly how they should redo VW a little, that way its worth doing. Content without a definite reward dies out because people lose the will to participate in events they could be completely wasting their time on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Plasticleg

This whole thread is an embarrassment.

You should be really sad for what you've done.

---

I'm saving the standard for multiplayer (MMO) video games. That, or desperately seeking out their salvation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

I'm saving the standard for multiplayer (MMO) video games. That, or desperately seeking out their salvation.

---

No, at this point you are simply feeding your own ego. Nothing more and nothing less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cidbahamut

No, at this point you are simply feeding your own ego. Nothing more and nothing less.

---

The purpose and function of a Discussion Forum is to, obviously, discuss. We make topics relevant to the subject and comment around that topic. We don't jump in from thread to thread tossing out personal attacks against people we don't agree with and then hop right back out again. Last I checked, my name was nowhere in the title of this thread, nor is it a part of the subject, either. Blocked. Bye.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

The purpose and function of a Discussion Forum is to, obviously, discuss.

---

You have made it abundantly clear over the course of this thread that you have absolutely no intention of holding a constructive discussion with anyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Blocked. Bye.

---

This is trolling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cidbahamut

You have made it abundantly clear over the course of this thread that you have absolutely no intention of holding a constructive discussion with anyone.

---

As shown by the fact I have been having a civil conversation for the last few pages...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Honestly how they should redo VW a little, that way its worth doing. Content without a definite reward dies out because people lose the will to participate in events they could be completely wasting their time on.

---

Honestly, any mob that carries a drop rate of less than 100% carries the RNG factor. Let's take the silly rabbit we all know and love as Jaggedy-Eared Jack for example: Reputed to have a horrible drop-rate for a an item with a highly-situational purpose that isn't worth the pixels its printed on otherwise. Yet, people still camp(ed) it, once an hour killing 3 little rabbits around the OP in hopes to get this piece of gear. More importantly than this is the actual amount of time that can possibly lapse before he actually spawns given you're killing the PH every 5min.

The relation to our RNG woes is that this mob is easily accessible and easily defeated for very, very little chance at a generously modest reward. Yet, people do it. I do it and have known people to do it. There is no guarantee of anything - not even a stinking rabbit hide, and in this case it's almost guaranteed that you won't get the drop, ever.

But people do, for the reason I believe to be because of the extremely low drop-rate. Now, imagine if this NM was not a lottery pop and was rather a timed spawn on a CD of 10min...

Infamy? Gone. Mystery? Gone. Item Value? Gone. Feeling of achievement? Gone.

The waiting is the hardest part, but it is absolutely necessary in building up the tension for a worthwhile event to come. Does it need to be as long as it's been in the past? No, it doesn't. Does it need to be shortened to the point where the only negative side that remains is the drop-rate itself? Here you go folks, your new, single-mob, mindless gear-grind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Honestly, any mob that carries a drop rate of less than 100% carries the RNG factor. Let's take the silly rabbit we all know and love as Jaggedy-Eared Jack for example: Reputed to have a horrible drop-rate for a an item with a highly-situational purpose that isn't worth the pixels its printed on otherwise. Yet, people still camp(ed) it, once an hour killing 3 little rabbits around the OP in hopes to get this piece of gear. More importantly than this is the actual amount of time that can possibly lapse before he actually spawns given you're killing the PH every 5min.

The relation to our RNG woes is that this mob is easily accessible and easily defeated for very, very little chance at a generously modest reward. Yet, people do it. I do it and have known people to do it. There is no guarantee of anything - not even a stinking rabbit hide, and in this case it's almost guaranteed that you won't get the drop, ever.

But people do, for the reason I believe to be because of the extremely low drop-rate. Now, imagine if this NM was not a lottery pop and was rather a timed spawn on a CD of 10min...

Infamy? Gone. Mystery? Gone. Item Value? Gone. Feeling of achievement? Gone.

The waiting is the hardest part, but it is absolutely necessary in building up the tension for a worthwhile event to come. Does it need to be as long as it's been in the past? No, it doesn't. Does it need to be shortened to the point where the only negative side that remains is the drop-rate itself? Here you go folks, your new, single-mob, mindless gear-grind.

---

People camped that thing for the item. Not for fun. Most people who did it, hated it. They endured that crap fest of a monster because it had something they wanted. Argus is still available if you like that sort of thing.

The item doesn't become any less useful or desired when you remove the crappy drop / spawn conditions. It just becomes more available.

Sense of achievement should come from killing / being part of a team capable of killing said NM in a expeditiousness manner.

Just being the guy who happened to be standing around when the monster popped is not an achievement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

People camped that thing for the item. Not for fun. Most people who did it, hated it. They endured that crap fest of a monster because it had something they wanted. Argus is still available if you like that sort of thing. Just being the guy who happened to be standing around when the monster popped is not an achievement.

---

Indeed, but yet if you look at the main thread, there is another poster created a thread asking for HNM to be brought back in the next expansion.... I really fail to see what accomplishment or skill one has by being at the right place at the right time. You are just lucky - and yet EVERYONE hates the luck based mechanic of this game. So if it does not benefits you in person, it is ok to hate, that seems the mentality of the majority. Personally most of the old school contents are pretty much luck based - you either get lucky with the drops, or die die die try again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

People camped that thing for the item. Not for fun. Most people who did it, hated it. They endured that crap fest of a monster because it had something they wanted. Argus is still available if you like that sort of thing.

The item doesn't become any less useful or desired when you remove the crappy drop / spawn conditions. It just becomes more available.

Sense of achievement should come from killing / being part of a team capable of killing said NM in a expeditiousness manner.

Just being the guy who happened to be standing around when the monster popped is not an achievement.

---

Repeatedly, incessantly, until such time? As when?

Isn't continually pounding out the same NM into oblivion in order to progress the same game I'm trying to get back, just re-packaged in single-mob form?

And to be fair, I didn't say anything about a random person happening upon the mob. I said camped, for a very specific reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cidbahamut

You have made it abundantly clear over the course of this thread that you have absolutely no intention of holding a constructive discussion with anyone.

---

My big post of what I like about Abyssea never got addressed... ; ~ ;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meyi

I'm not going to read through 30-some pages to try and find the answer to this, so I would greatly appreciate it if your next post could list every reason why you would like to see EXP parties return and Abyssea parties be removed from the game. In exchange I will list every reason why we should not return to old EXP parties.

---

Sorry Meyi, though I will admit the giant wall of text was a bit off-putting.

RE Fast EXP: Considering this approach, do you believe the game should start at cap for all new characters?

RE Equality: It's my belief that, as far as the grind goes, that some jobs were more favored over others but by no means were the desire/need for the others actually diminished. What I think GoV/Abyssea have done is destroy the individuality of said jobs. For instance, I preferred having a WHM > RDM playing my Ninja. I preferred inviting a SMN > BRD in Caedarva Mire. When fighting mobs that didn't spam AoE, I'd invite a BST in a heartbeat.

RE Strong Armor: Your definition of fun; I can't argue with that.

RE Diversity: I don't really recall a time when you needed anything much other than WHM, BLM, NIN, WAR, leveled specifically for subjob purposes. Sure there's odds, but most situations don't require many more than these. As far as, "Now people are willing to level their jobs for events", I say if you enjoyed the job you'd have few qualms about watching it grow at a slower pace. I know people who intentionally de-leveled their favorite jobs just to grind with them again (Before level sync).

RE Fun: See "Strong Armor".

RE Not held back by idiots: On the occasion you would get a really good example of how not to do things, but I'd offer a fair 5% of all the parties I was in to be so terrible no one cared to carry on. Even then, with a good leader things can be fixed with /kicks and reps. I will say that the person that just suddenly says "Good bye." with no warning really sucks, especially if they were the tank or main heal, and even more so if things were going great.

RE Camps aren't always full: I can say I ran into this problem even fewer times. Very few camps/areas are so restricted in mob counts to only support one group comfortably. Beastmasters were a painful reality at times, but it was little things like this that added an extra challenge. Fight for the mob! Fight for the EXP!

RE The game's a game again: I won't disagree and say that the game didn't have some harsh facets. The game used to be set in a perpetual "Super Hard Mode". I think the answer you and I both are looking for, (at least I am), is some compensation both ways. Sure, you're getting a lot accomplished, but what does it matter exactly how much you get accomplished in a game that doesn't end? The point is that you learn to enjoy it for the majority of what it has to offer and gracefully loathe the rest. That, or you just go outside.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Repeatedly, incessantly, until such time? As when?

Isn't continually pounding out the same NM into oblivion in order to progress the same game I'm trying to get back, just re-packaged in single-mob form?

---

Somewhat, but it doesn't exclude 99% of the whole server in the way that a world spawn does. Pounding an NM into oblivion can be done faster and with a higher success rate by more skilled players. I like the method they used on Empys personally. You need x number of drops to get this item. 1 per kill is guaranteed, so you know that no matter what happens, as long as you win, you will be 1 step closer. Then they add additional luck based items, but give you the ability to increase your odds through procs and treasure hunter. And the difference is noticeable like going from 30% chance to 80% chance. Unlike VW, where procs / cells only increase a 0% drop rate to a 0.03% drop rate. Guaranteed progression makes the luck part feel far less like a kick in the groin.

Claiming HNM is completely unaffected by skill. You have no influence on claiming beyond spamming a button and hoping for the best. The random claim block timer ensures that the first guy to hit his claim macro will get rejected and player number 5-6 will be the guy who actually claims it. There is nothing you can do about the random timer other than chain a bunch of bots together.

I know for a fact that on my server, there are a few shells who do exactly that. They load up their ls, then charge ridiculous prices. If no one wants to pay, they just drop the items on the floor so that you can't have them. They will slowly kill mobs to ensure that the windows stay staggered in a way that they can always have people there to claim every worthwhile NM. People have specifically posted that they intend to do that on these very forums. There are probably a couple of level one mules sitting at Tiamat as I write this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

[B]And to be fair, I didn't say anything about a random person happening upon the mob. I said camped, for a very specific reason.

---

I didn't mean that he was standing there on accident. I'm just pointing out that he didn't do anything. He was just standing there. Nothing to be proud of. Claiming = pushing a button and hoping the random claim time picks you. Nothing to be proud of. Killing it? well you don't need random spawn times to have a good fight.

If they made instanced zones where people could hunt this crap, it would be fine. And I mean truly instanced. Not Group A reserves the zone and then Group B has to sit outside thumb in butt. I mean where group A and Group B are in separate zones with Separate monsters on separate timers.

If people are so bent on mobs that you can hardly ever fight, why not have something like stones, that you only get once a month and can't get more of? Then people can only do the fight 12 times a year. Then the gear stays incredibly rare, and the normal people don't get screwed by the 37 bot mule guys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

If they made instanced zones where people could hunt this crap, it would be fine. And I mean truly instanced. Not Group A reserves the zone and then Group B has to sit outside thumb in butt. I mean where group A and Group B are in separate zones with Separate monsters on separate timers.

---

Truly and seriously, if you haven't already you should play XIV. Every damned event worth doing is locked in an instance, timed and laid out just as you specified.

(Not that you can, really. They're locking all servers for 2.0 Beta soon.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Truly and seriously, if you haven't already you should play XIV. Every damned event worth doing is locked in an instance, timed and laid out just as you specified.

---

Why should we play FFxiv what should be available in FFxi?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

RE Fast EXP: Considering this approach, do you believe the game should start at cap for all new characters?

---

No. I enjoy the satisfaction of watching the "Level Up!" animation flash on my screen. I'm just not as eager to take 6~12 months to see the final one flash for my job, that's all. The more times it flashes, the happier I feel. Also, if we started at cap then people who wanted to level oldschool wouldn't have that option. I met a lot of my friends through leveling and partying with them, and having exp parties taken out of the game completely would destroy a huge social aspect of the game.

I still make friends in Gusgen Mines and Abyssea parties, so it's not as if these two strategies destroy that. In fact, I notice people are more willing to chat now because it's not as stressful and monsters require less focus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

RE Equality: It's my belief that, as far as the grind goes, that some jobs were more favored over others but by no means were the desire/need for the others actually diminished. What I think GoV/Abyssea have done is destroy the individuality of said jobs. For instance, I preferred having a WHM > RDM playing my Ninja. I preferred inviting a SMN > BRD in Caedarva Mire. When fighting mobs that didn't spam AoE, I'd invite a BST in a heartbeat.

---

You're definitely a unique individual then. Having played all of those jobs you just listed (excluding NIN past 49), I can assure you such a trend was extremely unheard of. White Mages were nice to have pre-ToAU and pre-merits (excluding King Ranperre's Tomb), but with the addition of ToAU became obsolete. I remember one colibri merit party I was in, as white Mage, commenting on how surprised they were that I could keep up. At first I was shocked because I had never heard of any party not having a White Mage, but later on upon leveling Bard realized that Red Mages were the only way to go.

Summoners were laughed at unless it was a Summoner only party, or later on Astral Flow burn. Bards were the delicious candy everyone wanted, and I had had many parties with 2 or even 3 Bards in them. Beastmaster was best to solo, and really any Beastmaster that leveled in a party usually didn't know how to actually play the job. All they knew was how to summon a jug and attack a monster.

I actually have a humoring story to share about an Optical Hat fight I did with a Beastmaster who leveled via parties, but that would stretch out this post even longer than it will be. Regardless, it's funny, and the community used to laugh at party Beastmasters just like many people today laugh at burned jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

RE Strong Armor: Your definition of fun; I can't argue with that.

---

Hm? Not quite sure about that summary. Yes, I enjoy being able to obtain strong armor by myself or with a few friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

RE Diversity: I don't really recall a time when you needed anything much other than WHM, BLM, NIN, WAR, leveled specifically for subjob purposes. Sure there's odds, but most situations don't require many more than these. As far as, "Now people are willing to level their jobs for events", I say if you enjoyed the job you'd have few qualms about watching it grow at a slower pace. I know people who intentionally de-leveled their favorite jobs just to grind with them again (Before level sync).

---

Again few and far-between. I could never delevel my Black Mage just to level it up again. I'd rather make another character and level it from scratch (like I already did with Meyi :)). And it's true, you didn't need different jobs back then, but now you do! At least for Voidwatch. But even aside from Voidwatch all jobs are welcome to Abyssea. Sure some jobs are desired more than others (BLM/BRD, BLU/NIN, WHM/RDM, THF, WAR) but I've never seen anyone excluded from coming just because their main job wasn't one of those desired ones.

And believe it or not, there are many wonderful job/sub combinations that people have laughed at over the years. I used to love going RDM/BST and soloing out in sky. I was very fast and efficient. Even to this day people laugh when I comment on the combination and that's how I know who was a part of the old Beastmaster community and who wasn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

RE Fun: See "Strong Armor".

---

Which is true. Thank you for acknowledging that. Though if you would like to point out what you find fun/don't find fun with the previous/current issues, you're more than welcome to add that here.

All I can add on to this is FFXI of the past really felt like a job to me. End game literally sent me to a state of depression after a few days of attending it. I'm not sure if it was the negativity of players towards one another (even in shell), the backstabbing, insults, and high expectations of everyone, or the grueling boredom of slaying the same monsters day after day and not being allowed to lot anything because my leader either had a vendetta against me or someone else deserved it more.

Now I am very happy. I love the game. I love my friends. I love being able to contribute and spend as much time (or as little) as I want in game!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

RE Not held back by idiots: On the occasion you would get a really good example of how not to do things, but I'd offer a fair 5% of all the parties I was in to be so terrible no one cared to carry on. Even then, with a good leader things can be fixed with /kicks and reps. I will say that the person that just suddenly says "Good bye." with no warning really sucks, especially if they were the tank or main heal, and even more so if things were going great.

---

Urgh. Lots of idiots in this game. I think that's the one thing keeping me from wanting to play it all day, every day. There were a lot of leaders who didn't want to lead, just wanted to gather six people together and get exp. Totally understandable since I too hate leading and refuse to do it. Do you remember the time for the trend of "disconnecting" to escape bad parties? Used to happen frequently, especially in the ToAU era.

And it's not like people really want to kick someone who sucks when it's their only tank or healer and there's none seeking around their level. It's a lose/lose situation....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

RE Camps aren't always full: I can say I ran into this problem even fewer times. Very few camps/areas are so restricted in mob counts to only support one group comfortably. Beastmasters were a painful reality at times, but it was little things like this that added an extra challenge. Fight for the mob! Fight for the EXP!

---

No, I hate competition. It is one of my greatest displeasures in life. I will disband and leave before I camp on other people. I have morals, you know. I treat others how I would like to be treated; if I am there first, I would like access to the monsters I came for, and if they were there first, I will leave and grant them that respect. It's a game, meant to be fun, and it's not fun when I'm put in that kind of situation. So I leave!

And no, the most common camps were almost always crowded. Crowded past their capacity. If the parties were low level then the camp could usually fit two, maybe three, but if the party was close to the cap then usually one would be too much.

That's why Campsitarus was created. Unfortunately a lot of people didn't want to try out half the camps listed there because they were "too far" or "too foreign", but this blog was a blessing back in its day. Obsolete now, but still fun to look back on and smile. Hell, sometimes I still use it to find monsters I can't remember the exact location to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

RE The game's a game again: I won't disagree and say that the game didn't have some harsh facets. The game used to be set in a perpetual "Super Hard Mode". I think the answer you and I both are looking for, (at least I am), is some compensation both ways. Sure, you're getting a lot accomplished, but what does it matter exactly how much you get accomplished in a game that doesn't end? The point is that you learn to enjoy it for the majority of what it has to offer and gracefully loathe the rest. That, or you just go outside.

---

I like compromises. I think there could be a way to bring back oldschool leveling, but by destroying our desired way you are not asking for a compromise, but for a complete control over how exp is gained. I don't think that's fair because not everyone finds a party of six entertaining. There has to be a way to make both choices entertaining for the people who desire each.

As for wanting to accomplish things in a game that never ends, I can see your point. The reason I play is to have something to set goals in and obtain them. Something fun. I can be social with friends, work on my own goals, or sit back and enjoy some beautiful story lines. This game has a lot to complete and everyone's objective is different. Some people (like me) really want to complete one job. Get the best armor they can for that job, do their best with that job, and feel a sense of satisfaction at having one thing complete. Other people just want to complete things like storylines and partake in events. Some people feel complete by having all jobs to 99. Some people feel complete by having Relics, Mythics, and/or Empyreans. And some people never feel completed at all. It really depends on the person.

Back to EXP parties, there are some things I cannot stand about them that would need to be fixed for me to return:
1. Lack of jobs our level. This was fixed with Level Sync, kind of, but there were people even then who refused to sync down below their level.
2. Targetting easier prey. Incredibly Toughs are just...hard. There's no reason we should bust our backs slaying a hard monster when we'd be much faster (and enjoyable) fighting easier prey (Even Match-Very Tough). This is a playerbase issue and I can't think of anything for Square Enix to do to fix this at the moment. They already made it more enticing with an EXP bonus to easier monsters.
3. Camp respect. Again a playerbase issue. I think Square Enix could consider modifying some camps to make them easier to gain access to/more appealing to players.
4. Equal speed EXP of GoV/Abyssea parties. For me to choose oldschool over newschool it's going to need to be as quick. Occasionally I may want to do an oldschool party for old time's sake, but never seriously. If it's going to become a serious option it needs to step up to the plate.
5. Level Sync gear sucks. I seldomly level sync below my level because of gear problems. I don't like that all of my positive attributes are severely butchered whereas all of my negative ones remain in tact. I'd like to see a possible storage option in the form of a quest where we bring the leveled armor to a NPC to store it and can later "recall" it as we level sync.
- For example, say I wanted to wear a Shaman's Cloak for a level 56 party. I don't have the inventory to keep that laying around for "just in case I ever join a level sync party" and therefore would not have it for the party. My Goetia Coat+2 would be worthless at level 56. Therefore, for my proposal I'd like to see an NPC I could visit, trade a Shaman's Cloak to, and later "recall" that Shaman's Cloak into my Body Slot for the duration of the Level Sync party. This recall ability could require level sync status to be on to activate, I don't really care. I just don't have the inventory to lug around worthless armor I don't use at 99. But that said, I'd gladly recollect and store gear in advance to use at a later date for a synced party.
- If this is possible, it could be restricted to Level Sync parties only to prevent storage for capped BCNMs.
6. A way to deal with idiots that doesn't hinder my progression. I want some guarantee to not be affected by poor performance of other players. In Abyssea I can solo my EXP just fine. Hell, I can solo just fine outside of it too. And GoV parties are fast even with lots of gimps. But oldschool EXP parties are not fast at all with gimps. Therefore, there would need to be a way to weed out gimps without having to slow EXP or break the party. This is especially a concern when dealing with the tank and healer slots.

And lastly, don't be intimidated by my long posts. -smile- You wanted a discussion, I am having a discussion. I'm not the best at adequately expressing my thoughts in pithy sentences. I'd appreciate long responses as well so I can better understand your point of view and see where our differences lay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meyi

My big post of what I like about Abyssea never got addressed... ; ~ ;

---

I hate to argue on his side, but much of what you said was opinion or make-belief.

Equality was better than at 75, but still nowhere near there.

Diversity was entirely non-existant.

Strong armor was there but it's not an entirely good thing. That was what lead to much of the post-Abyssea depression. SE realized they couldn't keep that pace up without entirely breaking the game (many of those items are already broken, especially in combination), so when they lowered their standards in item creation again, everyone was disappointed.

You were still held back by idiots and even more so by assholes than you were at 75. It was a lot easier to be a dickhead in a highly competitive and popular zone like Abyssea. You said yourself you hated competition, and that was stronger felt than ever for casuals. Hardcore people had their HNM experience to guide them, so they were more familiar with it, but casuals were getting tired and upset with being outclaimed, people unwilling to team up, people claiming mobs when they went yellow and other dickishness like that. What was not an issue to a majority of them became a primary issue to many.

Camps aren't always full, that's true, but they rarely were at 75, at least not lately. I do remember having to relocate due to a full camp every now and then, but not enough to honestly say I felt any lasting impact of it at all. If someone asked me what I hated about EXP back then, this definitely wouldn't have come up. And when Abyssea did become popular sometimes they were full even then. You still struggly to get into a Dom Ops party even today at times.

About the game being a game "again": the game was a game before. It was a different kind of game, and one I personally preferred. It went from a slow-paced high-quality game where achievements and dedication mattered to a game which provided quick and fast low-quality entertainment. Abyssea was much like Mario Party 8 that way. It was casual, entertaining, required nearly zero commitment, but when you finished it, did you feel anything? Or was it another game to throw in the bucket while starting to realize that it was the same as countless other games before while coming to the conclusion that the Wii was a shitty investment?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

I hate to argue on his side, but much of what you said was opinion or make-belief.

---

Make belief, no. Opinion perhaps. I'm willing to take that into consideration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

Equality was better than at 75, but still nowhere near there.

Diversity was entirely non-existant.

---

Because of the past tense used here, I'm not entirely sure what time you're arguing for; do you mean the game now, or the game right as Abyssea came out, or before Abyssea?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

You were still held back by idiots and even more so by assholes than you were at 75. It was a lot easier to be a dickhead in a highly competitive and popular zone like Abyssea. You said yourself you hated competition, and that was stronger felt than ever for casuals. Hardcore people had their HNM experience to guide them, so they were more familiar with it, but casuals were getting tired and upset with being outclaimed, people unwilling to team up, people claiming mobs when they went yellow and other dickishness like that. What was not an issue to a majority of them became a primary issue to many.

---

I understand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

Camps aren't always full, that's true, but they rarely were at 75, at least not lately.

---

The camps that were full were the merit camps because the majority of players who got to 75 didn't want to level another job up to 75 and instead wanted to better the job(s) they had at max level. Camps were very full before ToAU's addition. I can see the argument of camps remaining clear like they had at 75 as many people will still choose GoV and Abyssea over oldschool parties.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

I do remember having to relocate due to a full camp every now and then, but not enough to honestly say I felt any lasting impact of it at all. If someone asked me what I hated about EXP back then, this definitely wouldn't have come up. And when Abyssea did become popular sometimes they were full even then. You still struggly to get into a Dom Ops party even today at times.

---

True. Abyssea had its congestion times too. Especially when it first came out and we only had the three zones, then the six, and the nine without the levels to tackle harder camps. Although, back at the introduction of Visions two parties could fit at a LaTheine worm party.

I don't know about Leviathan but on Bismarck Dom OPs are dead. We very rarely have EXP party shouts and when we do they're either on worms/frogs, vultures in Misareaux, or the occasional bugard group. And even rarer yet are cruor party shouts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

About the game being a game "again": the game was a game before. It was a different kind of game, and one I personally preferred. It went from a slow-paced high-quality game where achievements and dedication mattered to a game which provided quick and fast low-quality entertainment. Abyssea was much like Mario Party 8 that way. It was casual, entertaining, required nearly zero commitment, but when you finished it, did you feel anything? Or was it another game to throw in the bucket while starting to realize that it was the same as countless other games before while coming to the conclusion that the Wii was a shitty investment?

---

By calling it 'a game' I meant it is easy to turn on and turn off without feeling guilty. There used to be many snags in the previous version when it came to time. Dynamis could take up to four hours (and in my group usually did), ground kings had a 3 hour window, and several other events took time to gather people (like EXP parties) and get to camp. I can recall spending many hours standing and waiting for a monster to pop (like Tiamat) to get claim, or spending many hours trying to bring it down (Jormungand took several hours our first attempt). These were several hours of a day spent on one activity. And half the time said activity was standing around waiting for the game to start (waiting for pop, waiting for party to gather).

It's really not the fights themselves I had a qualm with. It was the exhaustion of going for so long with one single event. I haven't tried end game events (excluding Abyssea) since the Rage system was put into place, so maybe it's different now. I just remember kiting Kirin for hours on end, or griding my teeth as I stood by the Chocobo Stables in Dynamis - San d'Oria for four hours as leader pulled pops to us, or doing homework, bored out of my skull while I waited for the 30 minute window to reopen. I remember wanting to leave an exp party only to be guilted back into it because someone was "close to level" or there were no other healers. I remember a lot of waiting and standing around.

But with Abyssea the waiting around has been severely reduced. If someone wants to EXP, they can usually visit one of the hot spot camps, ask if there's a spot open (which there usually is unless it's a Japanese party) and jump in for fun. They can also leave and log out when they need to. If someone wants to farm a better piece of armor (i.e. +1 or +2) they can spend a couple of hours and either obtain it, or at least make a good dent in it. Dynamis has been pushed down to two hours (and is now a lot more enjoyable) and old 75 content doesn't take nearly as long to zerg down.

I have to say I highly disagree with the opinion that this game is now unrewarding. While it's true that the anticipation of collecting that rare gear was abolished by the introduction of Abyssea, people's spirits and determination to better their equipment sets were rekindled.

I'm sorry you don't feel the same level of satisfaction as you once did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meyi

Because of the past tense used here, I'm not entirely sure what time you're arguing for; do you mean the game now, or the game right as Abyssea came out, or before Abyssea?

---

During Abyssea. Before that, diversity was somewhat limited, but it always depended on the event. During the "Abyssea era" there was only one event, Abyssea. There was a period of about one year where nothing else was worth doing. And that event did not have a need for any job that didn't have TH, couldn't proc and wasn't WHM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meyi

I don't know about Leviathan but on Bismarck Dom OPs are dead. We very rarely have EXP party shouts and when we do they're either on worms/frogs, vultures in Misareaux, or the occasional bugard group. And even rarer yet are cruor party shouts.

---

I thought they were dead, and maybe they are indeed. I didn't do EXP in a very long time, I only recently came there to fill up on merits after I decided to redesign my SMN a bit, and there were almost two full alliances on Sweepers. But I admit that that's the only experience I have to go on, so maybe it doesn't carry as much weight. But the only reason why Abyssea EXP camps wouldn't be congested is because most people are simply done EXPing, for good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meyi

By calling it 'a game' I meant it is easy to turn on and turn off without feeling guilty.

---

That's precisely what I meant too. And that's perfectly valid game design. There are games that center around nothing but casual pleasure, and that's perfectly fine. I just didn't count FFXI as one of those games. For me FFXI was a project, I wasn't just playing a bit here and there, I was building my character and it actually felt like I was growing with him. I valued him. Now I don't. I'm not sure if Abyssea is the only thing to blame for this, but many of other factors I consider to be possible reasons can also be linked back to the Abyssea era (like decreasing population or death of other events).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meyi

But with Abyssea the waiting around has been severely reduced. If someone wants to EXP, they can usually visit one of the hot spot camps, ask if there's a spot open (which there usually is unless it's a Japanese party) and jump in for fun. They can also leave and log out when they need to. If someone wants to farm a better piece of armor (i.e. +1 or +2) they can spend a couple of hours and either obtain it, or at least make a good dent in it. Dynamis has been pushed down to two hours (and is now a lot more enjoyable) and old 75 content doesn't take nearly as long to zerg down.

---

I don't disagree with any of that. But what about the people who finished Abyssea in a month, what should they do? I can't just go out and get another +2, because all my +2 have been finished for over a year. It was very short-lived, an almost necessary drawback of being fast-paced, which many people considered a good thing. However, fast-paced game design doesn't work very well for MMORPGs. It does make them more entertaining in the short run, but such a pace is almost impossible to sustain, which, in turn, is what lead to the aforementioned post-Abyssea depression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meyi

I have to say I highly disagree with the opinion that this game is now unrewarding. While it's true that the anticipation of collecting that rare gear was abolished by the introduction of Abyssea, people's spirits and determination to better their equipment sets were rekindled.

---

Very true, but that was just as short-lived as Abyssea itself, because it was all it had to offer. Even empyrean weapons are just a small extension of that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meyi

I'm sorry you don't feel the same level of satisfaction as you once did.

---

That's kind of arguing semantics now, but I do feel satisfaction. It's just of a different kind. I do things differently, I do a lot solo and I farm a lot, but it's more of a pastime. I don't look forward to the next LS Ouryu run a week from now anymore, or sea/sky god runs or Proto-Omega/Ultima. Admittedly, Legion and Neo-Einherjar have kinda rekindled that old flame, but it doesn't burn as strong as it once did. It just doesn't feel as epic as it did before.

Regardless, all I wanted to say is that Abyssea often gets sugar-coated, especially by such overly enthusiastic people like Luvbunny, who completely ignore anyone else's opinion and just spill out Abyssea-praise like a broken candy machine. It had its ups and downs. Its ups were, among others, leveling the playing field for Lv99 content, more accessible gameplay as well as easier EXP gain for the lazy bums that most of us are. Which, sadly, brings us back to this particular discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

You might get sick of me referencing XIV, but if it weren't due to the fact that that game is virtually this game with enhanced graphics, I wouldn't be (nor would I have a frame of reference).

---

FF14 is not "virtually this game with enhanced graphics". Very different stat systems, formulas, gear progressions, ability and spell progression. Much fewer classes/jobs, very different crafting system. The races and token finalfantasy mobs almost the only things that make the games seem similar.

And yes, I've played FF14 for about half of the time the game's been up and I have multiple lv50s (not that that's hard to get).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirage

FF14 is not "virtually this game with enhanced graphics". Very different stat systems, formulas, gear progressions, ability and spell progression. Much fewer classes/jobs, very different crafting system. The races and token finalfantasy mobs almost the only things that make the games seem similar.

And yes, I've played FF14 for about half of the time the game's been up and I have multiple lv50s (not that that's hard to get).

---

Virtually means to imply:

- You have PIE instead of AGI; No CHR.
- Bigger stat numbers, same function.
- Only cap gear matters; Lv50 weapon-hell.
- Spells are free/auto; Abilities come with level gain.
- Crafting is "interactive", meaning you put your mats in and press Enter repeatedly.

Anyhow, the common denominator I was going after is people can attain level cap in 19hrs and start endgame shortly thereafter. Honestly, with the right resources and enough Red Bull, it's entirely possible one can start a character, get level cap, go 4/4 on AF and still have enough time to run Ifrit Hyper a few times, within the first 24 hours. In fact, you might be right - 14 might just be a bit more silly.

Pie doesn't really do agi's job at all, though, so in reality, we have neither agi nor dex in the game. Pie adds damage for ranged attacks, but not because it's an inhernetly physical stat like agi is. It is probably because they wanted a system where every class gets damage from one physical stat and one magical stat.

Additionally, one class/job can't equip more than one weapon, combat skills are much more shallow, you can't parry while holding a shield, for example, because only great axes let you parry, for some unknown reason. The combo system leads to a very rotation-heavy game, which also is a contrast to FF11, at least for most of FF11s classes.

Outside of the visual style and traditional monsters, I don't think FF14 is the same as FF11 more than FF14 is the same as for example WoW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mirage

Additionally, one class/job can't equip more than one weapon, combat skills are much more shallow, you can't parry while holding a shield, for example, because only great axes let you parry, for some unknown reason. The combo system leads to a very rotation-heavy game, which also is a contrast to FF11, at least for most of FF11s classes.

---

Don't get me started on that game's combat system. Also, for some strange reason, they removed Shell and Water (nuke) from the game. ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Anyhow, the common denominator I was going after is people can attain level cap in 19hrs and start endgame shortly thereafter. Honestly, with the right resources and enough Red Bull, it's entirely possible one can start a character, get level cap, go 4/4 on AF and still have enough time to run Ifrit Hyper a few times, within the first 24 hours. In fact, you might be right - 14 might just be a bit more silly.

---

Wow. I'm not sure of how true this is, but unless there is a good chunk of endgame content, FFXIV really sounds like it's still lacking stuff.

I played at the game's release for a week or so, and I can say that there are a lot of fundamental game mechanics that I'm not really happy with, even though there are some things that I wish FFXI had/could have.

"Taken from the Official Forums - A wonderful post by Darshu Warshoes of Selbina that I thought deserved further exposure..."

I really don't understand what goes on inside one's mind when they completely ignore the journey for some benefit in the end. The journey is dynamic, it changes, it tells a story. The end is static, repetitive. If you switch those two up, it happens precisely what this post complains about. People do not care about enjoying a good meal everyday, because they want to live the end of their lives now, and the faster way to do it is not spending any more than 5 minutes eating their food. Fuck it if it's not healthy or enjoyable, I don't give a shit about food being enjoyable, they will say.

This affects modern society as a whole and it could not be different when that same society plays games. People are just anxious for something in the end, so anxious in fact that they do not realize how enjoyable getting there can be. The biological pace personal to each individual might affect it but I believe that it is also mostly some result of education, culture and life experiences. Society changed as a whole to this new style of "get there as fast as possible" and we can still see the disparity between city folk and country folk in that regard.

So as long as we continue to live like this, consuming frenetically, it's very unlikely that gamer's minds will change and prefer to consume little for higher gain instead of a billion mobs per second.

I personally enjoyed FFXI battles way more than any other MMO I've played, and only there could you clearly see when a party was doing it's job right and when it wasn't. Not only things could go completely wrong when someone did not know their job right, but even a party that survived could earn exp incredibly slower than an excellent party. And it never stopped the game from having even stronger boss creatures that required an even greater amount of people, and even greater skill. That's what I miss in this game, where every little thing you can do affects the game ever so slightly, but in doing it right and using all you got, in the end the difference becomes enormous.

Fighting multiple enemies is something I've always wanted after I played XI, because every other FF did that, and I thought it would be a great idea. But it doesn't seem to work on a MMO style of gameplay.

Far from wanting the game to be a hassle, I want it to be enjoyable all the way through, and not just at the end. Fighting is a big part of any Final Fantasy game, and it should be as enjoyable as it possibly can. The way it is now is not, by any standard, enjoyable. Even those who prefer it like it is do so because it gets them to what they perceive as "enjoyable" much faster. And it's even crazier when the end game right now is so limited you can be doing nothing new in a month, so why the hell rush it?

I think the analogy fast food vs high cuisine is good, but not quite perfect. It would be more like fast food vs what the Brazilian said, a decent balanced home cooked meal, that takes you time to do it, but it's way more beneficial and rewarding. It can't just reward your tastes, it needs to get you through the day, too :P And neither junk food nor 20g of rare expensive mushrooms can do that.

Square needs to show gamers it can actually be fun to level up and play, because as it is now, it will be hard to convince any one to slow down and enjoy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

During Abyssea. Before that, diversity was somewhat limited, but it always depended on the event. During the "Abyssea era" there was only one event, Abyssea. There was a period of about one year where nothing else was worth doing. And that event did not have a need for any job that didn't have TH, couldn't proc and wasn't WHM.

---

I thought that sucked at first too, because that meant I had to go BLM to everything. Then I found out that I could just level the other jobs within a few weeks. In the past you were looking at several months of leveling a job for one event an unless the job you leveled was bard, you would probably need to level a different job for the next event.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

I thought they were dead, and maybe they are indeed. I didn't do EXP in a very long time, I only recently came there to fill up on merits after I decided to redesign my SMN a bit, and there were almost two full alliances on Sweepers. But I admit that that's the only experience I have to go on, so maybe it doesn't carry as much weight. But the only reason why Abyssea EXP camps wouldn't be congested is because most people are simply done EXPing, for good.

---

I found that when I started leveling Sam on this character, right before abyssea came out, that there were already very few people exping, and the ones who were were levelsync /PL parties at birds in the past. There was almost nothing going on in between 37-75 going on on my server. Even for a SAM. Every server is different I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

That's precisely what I meant too. And that's perfectly valid game design. There are games that center around nothing but casual pleasure, and that's perfectly fine. I just didn't count FFXI as one of those games. For me FFXI was a project, I wasn't just playing a bit here and there, I was building my character and it actually felt like I was growing with him. I valued him. Now I don't. I'm not sure if Abyssea is the only thing to blame for this, but many of other factors I consider to be possible reasons can also be linked back to the Abyssea era (like decreasing population or death of other events).

---

I see it now as leveling several jobs and gearing them has replaced leveling 1 job and gearing it. I think those other events will come back to some degree, but should they really continue to be as popular as new material? During the year or so of level cap increases, adjusting old events would have been a huge time sync for the dev fellas. They basically just let em die for a small period and then went back to work once everyone was at cap again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

I don't disagree with any of that. But what about the people who finished Abyssea in a month, what should they do? I can't just go out and get another +2, because all my +2 have been finished for over a year. It was very short-lived, an almost necessary drawback of being fast-paced, which many people considered a good thing. However, fast-paced game design doesn't work very well for MMORPGs. It does make them more entertaining in the short run, but such a pace is almost impossible to sustain, which, in turn, is what lead to the aforementioned post-Abyssea depression.

---

I feel like the people who finished abyssea in a month should do the same thing they did before abyssea. Keep doing it anyways, and sell the drops. The people who finished abyssea in a month were the same ones selling sky / sea / limbus / HNM drops. That is the downfall of playing far more efficiently and for longer periods than the bulk of the players. It's lonely at the top. But, they get to build relics and do all the updated post abyssea stuff, while everyone else farms / buys that stuff from them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

Regardless, all I wanted to say is that Abyssea often gets sugar-coated, especially by such overly enthusiastic people like Luvbunny, who completely ignore anyone else's opinion and just spill out Abyssea-praise like a broken candy machine. It had its ups and downs. Its ups were, among others, leveling the playing field for Lv99 content, more accessible gameplay as well as easier EXP gain for the lazy bums that most of us are. Which, sadly, brings us back to this particular discussion.

---

How can you refuse such a delicious sugared coated candy treat filled with honey and marshmallow? Mooooooore abyssea crack please and any abyssea flavored events!!! While I can see your points there, I never once missed the fake entitlement or grindy looooooong events that is nothing but boredom and a royal pain to set up and complete for very little rewards. I am very glad that SE decided to go to the modern way of Abyssea. I like Meiyi's opinion better, it is valid, and touched many subjects that is now. There are so many post abyssea events, and each one of those has very very very low drop rate just like the good old days, and yet I saw many posters complaining that this is not right blah blah blah. So whichever ways SE swing, it will always be wrong. I have no problems with all the events after abyssea - they are fun diversions with good sidegrade gears, and does not take a very long time to complete. Plus there are all kinds of variety too, from hard to easy. If anything the game is a lot more fun since the introduction of Abyssea. It makes the developers to have to work their ass off to create contents after contents after contents, they CAN NO LONGER rest on their laurels and have to keep up with the demands and have to measure up to abyssea.

Ultimately the real reason they considered Abyssea a failure wasn't because of balance. It was because it would cause them more work. It's not something they can just set and forget for the next few years while relying on the gambler's mentality to keep people playing through stupidly low drop rates (VW) or even more stupidly low chance of success (Neo-Nyzul).

It was awesome for a large chunk of the players, but not so awesome for an SE online division that's built to just plop some mobs down and coast along. As usual, the interests of the devs were placed far higher than the interests of the players. That's why we can't all have nice things, and while the MMO with the Final Fantasy name never quite reached a Final Fantasy level of success.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camiie

Ultimately the real reason they considered Abyssea a failure wasn't because of balance. It was because it would cause them more work. It's not something they can just set and forget for the next few years while relying on the gambler's mentality to keep people playing through stupidly low drop rates (VW) or even more stupidly low chance of success (Neo-Nyzul).

---

Thanks Camiie, finally someone who understand the real issue of Abyssea, and also why it is a massive blockbuster success. We pay monthly fees, developers should really work hard at emulating the success of Abyssea and try to sustain it, instead of giving us a bunch of stupid ideas like 1500 HMP, idiotic new 2 hours, etc... All these old schoolers seems to forget how menial content updates were in the dark ages of 2003-2007, barely nothing to get excited while everyone else were in the never ending grindfests. Abyssea finally gave everyone a chance at obtaining something if they put some works toward - but not utterly ridiculous amount of works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Thanks Camiie, finally someone who understand the real issue of Abyssea, [..]

---

Everyone did. It was not a secret. Ironically, you're the only one who doesn't seem to get it, as demonstrated by the rest of your post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

[..] and also why it is a massive blockbuster success.

---

That is not at all what Camiie said. It's also not true. You're just trying to promote your agenda again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

We pay monthly fees, developers should really work hard at emulating the success of Abyssea and try to sustain it [..]

---

See, that's what I meant. You have no idea at all why they considered Abyssea a mistake. Your entire argument is that SE is malvolent and doesn't want to provide entertaining content or that they don't know what people want. But the issue with Abyssea is (as Camiie pointed out correctly) that Abyssea-like content is hard to maintain, for two reasons. First of all, people plow through it too easily and quickly. They'd have to release more content like that every three months, forever, to maintain that level of satisfaction, which is impossible to do. The key behind any MMORPG is to find a balance between entertaining and drawn-out content, to keep people satisfied at a pace that is sustainable for developers. Abyssea fulfilled the former (to some degree) but not the latter.

The second reason is that fast-paced content approaches a limit faster than slower content does (logically). The best example for that is gear. People like to bring up Abyssea gear as one of its strong points, but that pace would ultimately lead to a dead end for gear. If you keep overpowering gear like that, not only does it get harder to release new gear (after all, how do you improve a Haste +25% leg piece?), but also creates balance issues for older content. Basically, every time you release new gear like that, all previous content would not only be imbalanced, because it was not designed to be cleared by players with such stats, but also unnecessary to do in the first place, because the gear from it is not worth it compared to the new one (also very strongly noticeable with Abyssea). That means that people would have to do the new content exclusively, because nothing else has no incentive to be done anymore. Which means the pressure would grow even bigger on SE to release completely new content more rapidly.

The point of it all is that such a pace is impossible to maintain. That was why they considered Abyssea a mistake. And here's what you obviously don't get: they're right. It was a mistake. That's not a matter of opinion. This does not mean that Abyssea wasn't "good" or that it wasn't "fun" or whatever other crap you will want to read into my words again. I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying that from a developer-viewpoint doing something like that was a bad business-decision. It upset the balance between entertainment and pacing too much to be manageable. You can say whatever you want about how much you liked it, how much fun it was and how special you've been feeling since it was released, it does not matter one bit. This is an entirely different argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

See, that's what I meant. You have no idea at all why they considered Abyssea a mistake. Your entire argument is that SE is malvolent and doesn't want to provide entertaining content or that they don't know what people want. But the issue with Abyssea is (as Camiie pointed out correctly) that Abyssea-like content is hard to maintain, for two reasons. First of all, people plow through it too easily and quickly. They'd have to release more content like that every three months, forever, to maintain that level of satisfaction, which is impossible to do. The key behind any MMORPG is to find a balance between entertaining and drawn-out content, to keep people satisfied at a pace that is sustainable for developers. Abyssea fulfilled the former (to some degree) but not the latter.

The second reason is that fast-paced content approaches a limit faster than slower content does (logically). The best example for that is gear. People like to bring up Abyssea gear as one of its strong points, but that pace would ultimately lead to a dead end for gear. If you keep overpowering gear like that, not only does it get harder to release new gear (after all, how do you improve a Haste +25% leg piece?), but also creates balance issues for older content. Basically, every time you release new gear like that, all previous content would not only be imbalanced, because it was not designed to be cleared by players with such stats, but also unnecessary to do in the first place, because the gear from it is not worth it compared to the new one (also very strongly noticeable with Abyssea). That means that people would have to do the new content exclusively, because nothing else has no incentive to be done anymore. Which means the pressure would grow even bigger on SE to release completely new content more rapidly.

---

110% Agree. Well put.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

That is not at all what Camiie said. It's also not true. You're just trying to promote your agenda again.

---

Not trying to promote agenda here, but getting kinda sick and tired dealing with blame abyssea for everything that is wrong in the game, the same crap that happened when ToAU came about, with blame everything on collibri for everything that was wrong at the time. Personally I think they did OK with contents created after Abyssea, not all are perfect but so far they are giving players options to do, and gears are marginally better than the Abyssea versions. The fact remains that Abyssea exists, and wether they like it or not - every new things that will come out will have to be balanced against Abyssea content and playstyle. At least now there are myriad of options for players to do, from easy mode to hard mode - and all of them are accessible from the get go - that ultimately what made Abyssea so great - it forced the developers to consider creating content that is FUN, ACCESSIBLE and ADDICTIVE.

To be fair, I wasn't defending SE at all. Just the opposite really. I think they and other P2P MMO developers are far too lazy and complacent when it comes to producing and maintaining content and SE especially cuts far too many corners . I know, I know spoken like a true customer with no perspective on what it's like to be a game developer, but still I wish they'd find a better way to do things than 0.1% drop rates and 6 degrees of randomness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camiie

To be fair, I wasn't defending SE at all. Just the opposite really. I think they and other P2P MMO developers are far too lazy and complacent when it comes to producing and maintaining content and SE especially cuts far too many corners . I know, I know spoken like a true customer with no perspective on what it's like to be a game developer, but still I wish they'd find a better way to do things than 0.1% drop rates and 6 degrees of randomness.

---

Don't forget reusing the same areas and mobs for content (WotG, Abyssea, Add-ons, Neo-Blahblah) except with color changes here and there on occasion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Don't forget reusing the same areas and mobs for content (WotG, Abyssea, Add-ons, Neo-Blahblah) except with color changes here and there on occasion.

---

Yup, even the gears are exactly the same lol, with newly revised stats. I have to say that they did produce tons of new contents in 2011-2012, true none of these are completely original and brand new, but at least they are giving players a few options that is not easy mode abyssea. Though as you can see in the other posting - those so called "old school" contents are not exactly getting tons of warm welcome lol. Legion and Neo blahblah are good examples of two new contents that draw very little interests from the players. Good thing that the gears are marginally better, so that the majority do not have to feel left out and give the minority a feeling of "extra special fairy pixie dust of precious snowflakes" that they crave so much. Even the new pixie dust weapons have "afterglow" - just in case you are not already special for completing them. So in the end - they at least try to give us options, yet still all these so called abyssea haters flaming every thread with torches and sign asking for the "old school" feeling back. I mean, maybe they should do more Legions and Neo-blahblah instead :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

So in the end - they at least try to give us options, yet still all these so called abyssea haters flaming every thread with torches and sign asking for the "old school" feeling back. I mean, maybe they should do more Legions and Neo-blahblah instead :)

---

Don't confuse the anti-EXP crowd with the anti-Abyssea crowd. Those are entirely different concepts. I see a lot of anti-EXP rage here, but very little anti-Abyssea rage. That has all calmed down about one year ago, after everyone who hated Abyssea quit.