To: Mr Akihiko Matsui

Demon6324236, can I ask what your signature, "Words so true in a world now ruled by luck! If only SE could see all our sad faces when we roll our die each day and it never lands on the number that rewards us.", means?

It means that he doesn't like random number generator-based reward systems

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Because it was inflammatory, and that in itself is unnecessary. Learn to talk with respect, and I might actually acknowledge you even said anything.

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What was inflammatory about it? Calling you a masochist?

You actually summed up my opinion on the matter quite nicely with your selection of my post. You only blocked out my views on you and your opinion. I guess that was uncomfortable for you, but I'm not sure what else you expected. You knew almost everyone here disagrees with you (you certainly knew I did), and you actually asked me about my opinion. I merely answered your questions. This is how I see it. I see it as a form of masochism. And I do not in any way have anything against it. I already told you before I have several people who play the game the "hard way" and if it makes them happy, good for them. I just don't want them to enforce it on myself, just like I don't enforce my playstyle on them.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Because it was inflammatory, and that in itself is unnecessary. Learn to talk with respect, and I might actually acknowledge you even said anything.

And at the most, it was all he needed to say for me to understand his side. Is there any point to talking further?

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I don't think anything he said was intended to be inflammatory. Calling you a masochist is quite appropriate given the nature of your views on this game.

mas·och·ism (ms-kzm)
n.
1. <censored>
2. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from being humiliated or mistreated, either by another or by oneself.
3. A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences.

All of us in this thread are guilty of the same thing in that it's pretty obvious that our efforts to sway you will be both time consuming and fruitless, and yet we continue to enjoy this debate. Wear that masochist badge with honor. ;)

I'm willing to bet that a parse of the Port Jeuno chat logs would reveal that you do not shout for the groups that you have been pushing for on this thread.

Furthermore, If the devs began work on implementing your requested changes, they would probably not finish before you left the game to go back to FFXIV. You're also ignoring the fact that SE are evil genies, and would likely do something totally unexpected and unwanted that you would hate even more than the current system, while in the process of making your requested changes . You're basically pushing for a largely unwanted / unnecessary / potentially terribad change that you won't even be around to benefit / suffer from, so this is really all just a great exercise for me to hone my more or less awful typing skills. *looks down at keyboard to see what keys my fingers are on*

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Demon6324236, can I ask what your signature, "Words so true in a world now ruled by luck! If only SE could see all our sad faces when we roll our die each day and it never lands on the number that rewards us.", means?

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If you look at most of the end game content released after Abyssea, its very random. With Arch-Dynamis Lord its a matter of luck on picking the right clone after he splits, with VW its luck on drops, with Nyzul Isle you rely purely on how far you go with each jump. As the quote says, Abyssea had the most proper reward system, because Reward truly was effected by effort, you could try to do something, and something would get done. However since most endgame has become very luck based, sure skill is involved, and more skill in alot of cases means less luck, but no matter what you do alot of endgame is highly effected by a random number the game comes up with and throws your way.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Because it was inflammatory, and that in itself is unnecessary. Learn to talk with respect, and I might actually acknowledge you even said anything.

And at the most, it was all he needed to say for me to understand his side. Is there any point to talking further?

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

So Arcon, would you say that we should simply start the game at cap?

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I already said I would not mind that one bit. I don't care for EXPing at all. If I'd start the game at 99 I'd still play it. Get this: I already have all my jobs leveled. I don't need any EXP, ever again. Yet I'm still playing. Is that not enough to convince you that I don't care for EXPing?

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He also answered your question as well.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Learn to talk with respect, and I might actually acknowledge you even said anything.

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Like you're one to talk! You haven't shown one iota of respect to anyone who doesn't agree with you, and you show unprecedented amounts of disrespect and arrogance towards us all! What a hypocrite!

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I don't think anything he said was intended to be inflammatory. Calling you a masochist is quite appropriate given the nature of your views on this game.

mas·och·ism (ms-kzm)
n.
1. <censored>
2. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from being humiliated or mistreated, either by another or by oneself.
3. A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences.

All of us in this thread are guilty of the same thing in that it's pretty obvious that our efforts to sway you will be both time consuming and fruitless, and yet we continue to enjoy this debate. Wear that masochist badge with honor.

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I assure that I am not, in fact, what you claim I am. The mere fact that you've tried to place this label on me simply because of my preference of play-style is different to yours is quite superficial. I've had every opportunity to name many of you what I think you to be, but because I have a bit of decency in me, I've done my best to refrain from it.

This isn't about me, and it's not about you. There's something else going on here, and I'm willing to get above the opinions and get down to the bottom of it. If you, or anyone else is not, then please just stop responding. You were doing good Frank, please keep up the new trend.

Seems I was late to the sandy lady part meeting.

The old party system, while nice in my nostalgia, was horrifying, and caused hours of standing in Aht Uhrgan doing nothing at all. It sucked, I like that I can level up quickly now.

Oh and so I don't feel left out, everyone smells and you all like to dance in tutu's on poo poo. There, hope my abusive tongue matches that of everyone elses in this 16 page dear diary.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

If you look at most of the end game content released after Abyssea, its very random. With Arch-Dynamis Lord its a matter of luck on picking the right clone after he splits, with VW its luck on drops, with Nyzul Isle you rely purely on how far you go with each jump. As the quote says, Abyssea had the most proper reward system, because Reward truly was effected by effort, you could try to do something, and something would get done. However since most endgame has become very luck based, sure skill is involved, and more skill in alot of cases means less luck, but no matter what you do alot of endgame is highly effected by a random number the game comes up with and throws your way.

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A lot of folks in FFXIV are complaining about the same thing. Why do you think people aren't happy with it?

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

A lot of folks in FFXIV are complaining about the same thing. Why do you think people aren't happy with it?

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For the same reason Tanaka was blamed for everything bad happening to this game, he was director there, and it turned out that way, so when he came here and gave it to us instead.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

For the same reason Tanaka was blamed for everything bad happening to this game, he was director there, and it turned out that way, so when he came here and gave it to us instead.

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Tanaka's been gone from 14 since, what, 2010? The issue still persists. What I'm more looking to get is an answer for why they think it's a good idea.

Almost all of the endgame content in that game has far less to do with skill than it does 15min. cooldown's on instances, speed-runs, and a RNG luck-based reward system.

Is this about widespread appeal, or something else?

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

I assure that I am not, in fact, what you claim I am. The mere fact that you've tried to place this label on me simply because of my preference of play-style is different to yours is quite superficial. I've had every opportunity to name many of you what I think you to be, but because I have a bit of decency in me, I've done my best to refrain from it.

This isn't about me, and it's not about you. There's something else going on here, and I'm willing to get above the opinions and get down to the bottom of it. If you are anyone else is not, then please just stop responding. You were doing good Frank, please keep up the new trend.

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It's really neither here nor there. I was only trying to point out that it's really nothing to be insulted by. The definition of the word describes your behavior.

The real meat of the post was here though:

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I'm willing to bet that a parse of the Port Jeuno chat logs would reveal that you do not shout for the groups that you have been pushing for on this thread.

Furthermore, If the devs began work on implementing your requested changes, they would probably not finish before you left the game to go back to FFXIV. You're also ignoring the fact that SE are evil genies, and would likely do something totally unexpected and unwanted that you would hate even more than the current system, while in the process of making your requested changes . You're basically pushing for a largely unwanted / unnecessary / potentially terribad change that you won't even be around to benefit / suffer from, so this is really all just a great exercise for me to hone my more or less awful typing skills. *looks down at keyboard to see what keys my fingers are on*

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

It's really neither here nor there. I was only trying to point out that it's really nothing to be insulted by. The definition of the word describes your behavior.

The real meat of the post was here though:

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Which makes not one bit of sense to me, as the first sentence is a gross and unfounded assumption that doesn't deserve any attention in the first place. Regarding the second paragraph, fifty per cent of it is pure redundancy. I wouldn't be leaving if they were planning to change it, and if I'd gone beforehand, I'd certainly return. Along with others, no doubt! The last sentence shows just how serious he is about the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Tanaka's been gone from 14 since, what, 2010? The issue still persists. What I'm more looking to get is an answer for why they think it's a good idea.

Almost all of the endgame content in that game has far less to do with skill than it does 15min. cooldown's on instances, speed-runs, and a RNG luck-based reward system.

Is this about widespread appeal, or something else?

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I honestly think its a combo between trying to have widespread appeal while making everything a giant time sync with RNG.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Which makes not one bit of sense to me, as the first sentence is a gross and unfounded assumption that doesn't deserve any attention in the first place.

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It would take far less effort to say "You are wrong" or "I do shout". The fact that you couldn't do that only supports my assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Regarding the second paragraph, fifty per cent of it is pure redundancy. I wouldn't be leaving if they were planning to change it, and if I'd gone beforehand, I'd certainly return. Along with others, no doubt!

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I find that very hard to believe considering that you did in fact leave when it was the way you liked it. If I was a gaming company, I would not wager my profits on that statement being true.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

The last sentence shows just how serious he is about the whole thing.

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Of course no one is serious in this thread. From post one, it was obvious that what the OP requested will never happen. Your playing stubborn for whatever reason it is that motivates you, which is fine. But I know that you realize that even if every single person in this thread had hit "like" on the OP, it still wouldn't make them follow through on it.

I can request a flying donkey that poops on you all day when you are in abyssea on a job that is below 99 and get 1,000,000 likes as well as the support of every player in the game, but SE is still gonna look at my request and go "Nah, that's not really what we think the game should be. Balance all the things!".

This thread serves no other purpose for most people other than to convince people that their opinion is correct. The actual request from the OP will never be reality.

How is this thread 62 pages?

Did you all really just argue with this guy for 62 pages?

Seriously, if old school parties were at all wanted or useful, people would make them. The fact is theyre not useful or wanted. There's only a very small handful of people on each server that want them back, your best option would be to try and convince SE to add an "Oldschool" server. I bet it would get enough ALTs and people who liked camping kings and exping the 'old way' to join it to make it worth having.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

It would take far less effort to say "You are wrong" or "I do shout". The fact that you couldn't do that only supports my assumptions.



I find that very hard to believe considering that you did in fact leave when it was the way you liked it. If I was a gaming company, I would not wager my profits on that statement being true.



Of course no one is serious in this thread. From post one, it was obvious that what the OP requested will never happen. Your playing stubborn for whatever reason it is that motivates you, which is fine. But I know that you realize that even if every single person in this thread had hit "like" on the OP, it still wouldn't make them follow through on it.

I can request a flying donkey that poops on you all day when you are in abyssea on a job that is below 99 and get 1,000,000 likes as well as the support of every player in the game, but SE is still gonna look at my request and go "Nah, that's not really what we think the game should be. Balance all the things!".

This thread serves no other purpose for most people other than to convince people that their opinion is correct. The actual request from the OP will never be reality.

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Ok, so I will say that I have. Now what? It's pointless. It's refuting one word against another, and all boils down to who you believe, and if I thought that would carry any weight with him, I'd bother to do so. And as I've already said, I am taking this in a serious tone, am not trolling, and do care what other people's opinions are. However, I do not care for personal attacks or averting the topic with things do not contribute to it. See "You sucked at playing Ninja." Pure speculation derived from someone's haste research and not one bit from personal experience.

Again, if you're not serious about the topic, just don't respond.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Did you all really just argue with this guy for 62 pages?

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Yup, apparently we are dealing with delusional little Miss Muffin here who does not seems to understand that his/her need to do old school party is never taken away - it's just nobody wants to deal with that crap anymore. Killing crab for a bazilion time stuck in one are is not what we called "experiencing". World of Warcraft way of leveling is EXPERIENCING since all the quest/mission is pretty much how you would level and force you to explore every nook and cranny of each areas. FFXI way is to stuck 6 people in one spot for hours killing the same thing over and over till your eyes bleed.

This is why I am glad now everything is about endgame, at least you get to kill a few NMs at different places - try your luck with the drops (which most people hate the way these things are luck based), and move on. No need to wait for hours, no more needing specialized LS, or always need bunch of elitist to do anything anymore. The game has more options and many myriad ways you can do things that you will never run out of options for years.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

How is this thread 62 pages?

Did you all really just argue with this guy for 62 pages?

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slow night at work

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

I honestly think its a combo between trying to have widespread appeal while making everything a giant time sync with RNG.

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And what makes this RNG system have widespread appeal, do you think? Also, do you not think this RNG system is an even cheaper way to extend content life than even the old grind?

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

How is this thread 62 pages?

Did you all really just argue with this guy for 62 pages?

Seriously, if old school parties were at all wanted or useful, people would make them. The fact is theyre not useful or wanted. There's only a very small handful of people on each server that want them back, your best option would be to try and convince SE to add an "Oldschool" server. I bet it would get enough ALTs and people who liked camping kings and exping the 'old way' to join it to make it worth having.

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It's gone on this long because I came looking for a discussion and all I got was flames and spam. Forgot how the internet works.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

And what makes this RNG system have widespread appeal, do you think?

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Go ask Bugsy Siegel, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

No need to wait for hours, no more needing specialized LS, or always need bunch of elitist to do anything anymore. The game has more options and many myriad ways you can do things that you will never run out of options for years.

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I like your post, but the newest added events actually require a large LS again. For instance my LS (10~ people) tried Odin V2 the other day, only got it to 50%~ before timing out, lol. And we can barley do Legion/new Ultima/new Omega and win. Game is shifting back to requiring to many people, which I don't really like.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

It's gone on this long because I came looking for a discussion and all I got was flames and spam. Forgot how the internet works.

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I lol'd. Good try trying to say it's everyone else's fault. The truth is you just don't want to admit that the new way is better and more liked. Forcing people to EXP the way you want is a bad move for game design, and people will be upset. It was very hard to find people 3 years ago to exp with, it would be even more impossible now. You on the other hand, still have the ability to create an 'old school party' and go do it your way. Nothing is stopping you, except maybe your inability to accept you're wrong and quit posting and go play. Options are good, whether you like it or not.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

I lol'd. Good try trying to say it's everyone else's fault. The truth is you just don't want to admit that the new way is better and more liked. Forcing people to EXP the way you want is a bad move for game design, and people will be upset. It was very hard to find people 3 years ago to exp with, it would be even more impossible now. You on the other hand, still have the ability to create an 'old school party' and go do it your way. Nothing is stopping you, except maybe your inability to accept you're wrong and quit posting and go play. Options are good, whether you like it or not.

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Have you read all 62 pages? The truth is you're about to open up the same can of worms that's been over and over again already, and here you are affirming that you haven't read much of anything previously. Do that, and then come back to this end of the discussion. You're effectively answering your own question as to how this has gone on this long.

It has gone on this long because you're feeding off the attention and insisting on responding to every single thing that gets posted in this thread.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

I like your post, but the newest added events actually require a large LS again. For instance my LS (10~ people) tried Odin V2 the other day, only got it to 50%~ before timing out, lol. And we can barley do Legion/new Ultima/new Omega and win. Game is shifting back to requiring to many people, which I don't really like.

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I think some of the newest contents added are for those people who still likes to do it with 17 others and wants some challenge. Legion and Neo Einherjar are two prime examples. The good thing is that the gears obtained there are not game breaking and provide alternatives from empyrean+2 and VW gears. What's good with the state of the game now is that there are so many varieties to choose from and at least they are giving casual players more options than it used to be. Who knows, maybe they will release some sort of "brew" for those two contents. They came up with displacer a year after voidwatch was released. Their attitude however has changed, now you no longer get the sane progression reward system Abyssea style - instead we are getting the old school luck based reward system - and in some cases, a hybrid one with gears obtained by points, and gears dropped with random luck.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

It has gone on this long because you're feeding off the attention and insisting on responding to every single thing that gets posted in this thread.

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Well, I guess if people shouldn't expect responses, then maybe they shouldn't post, yeah?

Most of your "responses" have amounted to "lalala I can't hear you, stop insulting me and being mean, you can't make an argument and are wasting my time." That is called spamming.

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Originally Posted by Khiinroye

Most of your "responses" have amounted to "lalala I can't hear you, stop insulting me and being mean, you can't make an argument and are wasting my time." That is called spamming.

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I think it might also be classified as trolling.

I think it's long past time that this thread be locked down.

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Originally Posted by Twille

I think it's long past time that this thread be locked down.

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Why? We were just getting somewhere constructive in the last 4-5 pages! If people would knock off the BS we could actually talk about the last few questions I've presented and move forward.

Well then, if you'd like a serious discussion. Let's begin.

I'm not going to read through 30-some pages to try and find the answer to this, so I would greatly appreciate it if your next post could list every reason why you would like to see EXP parties return and Abyssea parties be removed from the game. In exchange I will list every reason why we should not return to old EXP parties.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

I think it might also be classified as trolling.

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Or flame baiting.

trolling is just newspeak for flame baiting anyway

why haven't they completely nuked this thread yet?

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Why? We were just getting somewhere constructive in the last 4-5 pages! If people would knock off the BS we could actually talk about the last few questions I've presented and move forward.

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Which questions? I don't see anything unanswered.

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Originally Posted by Meyi

Well then, if you'd like a serious discussion. Let's begin.

I'm not going to read through 30-some pages to try and find the answer to this, so I would greatly appreciate it if your next post could list every reason why you would like to see EXP parties return and Abyssea parties be removed from the game. In exchange I will list every reason why we should not return to old EXP parties.

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Abyssea, Book & Repeating Book Pages:

- Fosters potential for abuse. (Ability to progress without playing, IE cheating)
- Diminishes value/need for mid-game gears. (Those who still play classic will need)
- Rewards the player with higher EXP/hr. for spamming EP-- mobs. (Diminished need for challenge/engaging battles)
- Player who 'burns' a job from 1-XX loses skill points that would otherwise be gained. (Creating a new and unnecessary need for manually raising these skills; Reference "increased rate of skill-point gain" to supplement this fact.)
- Supplants a general perspective that endgame content is the whole of the content the game intends to provide.
- Caters an equal reward system to all, regardless of time or effort put into a goal.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Which questions? I don't see anything unanswered.

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This:

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Originally Posted by scaevola

Go ask Bugsy Siegel, I guess.

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Does not qualify as an answer.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

This:



Does not qualify as an answer.

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Sure it does.

Some people, MANY people in fact, find a random-number-based reward structure viscerally exciting. Many smart people have spent their entire professional lives arguing about why this is the case and we might even have an answer, but the slot machines of Las Vegas keep taking your quarters no matter how much you realize the odds are stacked against you.


ANYWAY

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- Fosters potential for abuse. (Ability to progress without playing, IE cheating)

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Did you not recommend I SMN burn a few pages back? People who want to cheat will either get away with cheating or will find someone they can pay enough to let them get away with cheating.

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- Diminishes value/need for mid-game gears. (Those who still play classic will need)

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This assumes the conclusion that their purpose has not already been made obsolete. It's like saying we should get rid of cars because they diminish the value of buggy whips.

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- Rewards the player with higher EXP/hr. for spamming EP-- mobs. (Diminished need for challenge/engaging battles)

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We were never rewarded for engaging in difficult battles to begin with. XP/hour was ALWAYS higher when fighting VT than IT; we just didn't actually figure it out for awhile.

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- Player who 'burns' a job from 1-XX loses skill points that would otherwise be gained. (Creating a new and unnecessary need for manually raising these skills; Reference "increased rate of skill-point gain" to supplement this fact.)

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A player who starts a job at level 1 and burns it to 99 will ultimately reach a given skill cap faster than one who starts the same job at level 1 and levels the old fashioned way. True or false?

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- Supplants a general perspective that endgame content is the whole of the content the game intends to provide.

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As I had mentioned earlier, if FFXI offered a narrative arc to accompany the leveling process, there would be a point here, but all FFXI narrative is totally separate from the leveling process. It has way less in common with other FFs and is a lot like Wizardry or Ultima in this regard: leveling is just a Thing You Do to Get Deeper in the Dungeon.

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- Caters an equal reward system to all, regardless of time or effort put into a goal.

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This is true, but myopic because as I and several other posters mentioned, the uneven rewards of old school leveling were based entirely on the metagame of convince-other-idiots-you-are-awesome and not at all on actually killing mobs (which any shuriken-using yokel could do). To the extent that actual knowledge of game mechanics and skill in execution entered into the equation at all, they entered in to it less than any MMO this side of Korean shovelware.

This statement buys into what I think is the particularly American delusion that time and effort invested matter in and of themselves, and not simply as means to results.